BSGcast: 4.08 “Faith”
Starbuck’s and Leoben’s plots coming to head at last! Matt + Nat had a lot to say about this one… and with all the Hybrid’s prattle, we might have a few new theories to bandy about. Harbinger of Death takes on a whole new meaning for us, and it’s looking like the Hybrid and Baltar seem to be on the same page with their prophesy!
An intense episode to say the least, but what about the visual effects? Where’d that Raptor come from? Laura Roslin in a bald cap and a cancer-stricken Bajoran? What did YOU think of “Faith”?? Let us know, for a chance to win some sweet Alienware goodies… like those $200 Ozma7 Headphones in just 3 more BSGcasts!
May 9th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Wow, now that was a start to a show right there! Can the rest of the show meet the intensity of the first five minutes?
May 9th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Roslin is absolutely BALD!
Kara is hearing music — what does tha imply?
Natalie kills Caprica!
Damn!
May 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
That was an amazing episode. I don’t know where to start.
The Demetrius Arc
Comes to an exciting and rewarding conclusion after a slow start. We see another minor character off’d by Caprica as a revenge killing. This was as human a revenge killing as possible. How would you like the opportunity to “resurrect” after being murdered and be able to avenge your OWN MURDER! How would you feel after you avenged yourself? Remorseful? I detected remorse in Caprica. I detected she knew her fate and was happy that Natalie would be her executioner. That was as human a scene as you will see…until later with Roslin and her hospital buddy…
Kara is absolutely stunned with the revelation that she is the harbinger of death and will lead her race to the end. The question is what race gets led to the end? While the others were rejoicing that “3″ was the key to the F5, she was absolutely perplexed by her own fate. Note on the teaser for next week it was Athena announcing their return, not Starbuck. Was she still in shock and unable to communicate?
Athena was unable to touch Sharon the “8″‘ death scene! Did that mean Athena was unable to get in touch with her own humanity? Did it mean she is so in touch with her humanity that to touch “8″ would mean for her to be in touch with her own death? Sharon was won over to Athena’s point of view at her death…amazing! And Ander’s compassion at her death was as touching as Athena’s inability to get in touch with the death of “herself”. I was glad to see they actually used Athena’s “cylonness” in this episode. About frakin’ time.
Anders — completely and totally supportive of Kara and willing to risk it all to make it happen. It will be explosive when Starbuck finds out about Anders…as long as Starbuck is not a cylon…
The Leoben – Natalie interaction was incredibly real and genuine. The Cylon civil war is on. Are we setting up the ultimate battle of good versus evil? “Humanness” vs. “Machineness”? The “soul” versus “a mechanism”
The Roslin Death Arc
The path to death is littered with self-revelation…and Roslin is going through it. It was compelling to see her hospital mate serving as Roslin’s guide to self-revelation. When I first saw the boat scene with Roslin, I immediately leapt to the false conclusion that she was the Final Cylon given the hospital mate’s statement about being accompanied and soothed by “God” as she crossed over the river…until I realized she was merely a witness to her hospital mate’s death. Is Roslin now going to bring Adama along her own path to revelation? Did she have an “awakening” or in the Christian faith, was she “Born Again”?
What does this mean for the relationship between Roslin and Baltar? Remember, it was in A.D. 325 that Constantine formed the Council of Nicea (from which the Nicene Creed was created), the official Bible formalized, that Constantine was baptized a Christian on his deathbed, formally recognized Christianity as the official religion of the state and brought about the rise of Christianity. Will the Baltar/Roslin relationship do the same? Will Roslin declare her support of “the One God” as she dies and formally kill poly-theism for mono-theism? That seems to be the path we are now on!
We are increasingly seeing how the God of one is gaining wider support to kill off the “god of many” as understood by our Greek forebearers. It is also interesting how we have not seen Zarek and Lee in these last two episodes…hmmm?
An amazing show, one of the very best. I am glad I am taping it so I can go back and listen to every word and nuance!
May 9th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Correction to the above. Athena announces her return to Demetrius at the end, not to BSG 75. Point still applies…where was Starbuck to announce her triumphant return?
May 9th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Hey Matt + Nat, I found this site last week and I have to say, you guys are awesome!
I thought I would note something from this week’s episode. As the Hybrid tells Kara:
“The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the thirteenth”.
So, if we understand this correctly, the Final Five originated from, or at least traveled at some point to, Earth.
Now, compare this understanding of the origins of the Final Five to what Starbuck told Adama in “Six of One:
“I saw Earth! The shape of it, the smell of it, the feel of it on my skin, in my pores and I swear to you it was like I’d been there before.”
Add this to the fact that Kara is now hearing music, and I think the case for Starbuck as Cylon just got stronger. Or Ron Moore is just frakking with us.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
I think RDM is frakking with us. and it is so cool that he is. I need to go to bed, this was just too cool of an episode!
May 9th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Now this is the reason I watch this show. I have to admit that I’ve been a little disappointed this season so far. It’s all felt a little rushed and forced, but in “Faith”, everything seems to be coming together. I love how Anders is coming to embrace his cylon, can’t wait to see the dynamic unfold between him and Starbuck. Of the other final four though, Tory is the only one that I am accepting so far. Tigh is Tigh, and Tyrol just isn’t a strong enough character to support it. Although I did praise the gods when Callie was thrown out of the airlock, I only wish it had been done a couple of seasons ago.
Can’t wait until next week!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
That has to be the best episode this season. Yay, for more hybrid prophecy to dissect. I need to watch this one a few more times. Mary McDonald’s performance this episode was superb. If this lady doesn’t get an Emmey nomination this year, BSG fans should riot. Both the scene with Roslin describing her mother’s death and the final scene with Eddie and Mary brought a tear to my eye. A first for me with this show.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
I loved pretty much everything in this episode… but the thing that touched me the most was Adama’s brief scene with Laura. EJO was beautiful in that moment. I know, it sounds weird coming from a man to say that about another man but that is how I felt. He actually made me well up a little bit.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Oh, I also wanted to say that it seems like my theory about the Final Five was correct. They have been around for thousands of years and they are likely the Lords of Kobol. I do think there is still a lot of confusion, on my part, about why they still are not aware of anything other than that they are cylons (or cylonic). Very exciting.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
jack, I agree with you. The EJO scene with Roslin was poignant and moving. Mary McDonald has been superb…but what about Baltar? His arc has been extraordinary. Tigh is so human it is touching! And I disagree with Tyrol. I think his last episode where he says nothing but says a million things was brilliantly played.
The airlock scene of Callie was most excellent — I must admit. The cold heartedness with which it was done was great — Cylon airlocks human! Turnabout is fairplay…
May 9th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Wow! That was INTENSE. What a truly wonderful television event. Yes, it was an event. An hour long of pure bliss. I know it’s stupid, but I’m really concerned about Gaeta’s gun shot wound. But what’s driving me totally batty is how I felt about what the Six that shot Barolay told Natalie before she killed her, and especially, what Natalie told Starbuck. Essentially, Barolay enjoyed watching that particular Six model die. Obviously, the Sixes (the Eights and the Leobens for that matter) seem to have become “More human than human” (I know all you Blade Runner junkies out there have shivers running up and down your spines, I know I do). So, she (the dead Six) told Natalie how she couldn’t believe what she saw in Barolay when she was drowning, desperately trying to stay alive. I truly felt bad for her. I put myself in her place and, to tell you the truth, I would have jumped at any opportunity to make Barolay pay for what she did back on New Caprica. This begs the question: have Humans become more cold blooded than machines (not only does this apply for BSG, but for the real life too)? What’s great about BSG is that you go through of unexpected emotions in what, 42 to 44 minutes. By the way, isn’t Sharon more beautiful when there are many dozens of her? And no, I’m not a pervert! Grace Pack just happens to be a very beautiful woman, that’s all. Anyways, I’ve wasted enough time as it is wondering who the final Cylon might be, I’ll just wait until he or she is revealed on the show. But my latest theory is…
May 9th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
I forgot, did Anders look eerie to you guys when every body left after Sharon and The Hybrid died.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
I am so glad I found this web site I could pi$$ my pants. I was so tired of enjoying this show in my solitude…the ability to share with all of you is amazing and I apologize for the profuseness of my posts…it is like I have all of this stuff bottled up inside of me wanting to get out…and I am doing a poor job keeping it contained…
Kirk out.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
It truly brought a tear to my eye as Rosyln’s recollection of her mother’s passing. In recently loosing my mother suddenly I about broke down at simply the thought of it. I couldn’t imagine going through the slow agony of loosing a loved one to cancer. Mary McDonald is robbed if she doesn’t receive an Emmy for her performance. It was utterly and totally believable!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Ander’s looked like he saw something again when he was looking into the 8’s eyes as she died. I couldn’t put my finger on it so let it go.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Hey Sirslam,
I feel the same as you…have to enjoy my favorite show in solitude as none of my friends watch it !!! WTF…. anyways…I’m glad you found a group to share with. Fun when you have people to talk with that share the same passions as you !
May 9th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
too busy for a review atm, but this episode made up for last weeks episode, loved every scene it had me on the edge of my seat to try and hear every line…btw, it bugged me that i recognized the cancer patient who spoke with Roslin cuz i knew i recognized that face, did anybody else notice its major Kira from deep space 9? anyways, i gotta go, i’ll run a proper review if i got time later…next ep looks like everythings in motion and picking up pace…the momentum is building!
May 9th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
i meant it bugged me cuz i couldn’t figure out who the patient was, i was a bit vague in previous post…anyways, i hope Anders decides to try and interact with a basestar computer next time he gets the chance…just stick ur hand in the goo! writers like to tease too much…the only thing i have to complain about so far is that we’re closer to the midseason finale, then we’ll have to wait forever for the rest of the season…gotta go, full review maybe later…
“want to know the secret to avoid a hangover? don’t stop drinking…”
May 9th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
HOLY FRAK Is this is?
We cannot forget about the role of Hera.
What is Hera?
Should we consider Hera the thirteenth model?
Is Hera the bridge to salvation for humans and cyclons?
In previous seasons and episodes when Head Six says to Baltar that “Hera is our child” She is speaking figuratively about what Hera represents: Hera is the child of a Human (Baltar) and a Cyclon (Six).
It is Baltar who is continuously seen holding Hera in the opera house. Remember when Baltar was hallucinating on Kobol and he envisaged Adama holding Hera and saying “Is this the shape of things to come?” and then Adama proceeded to drown Hera!
In Crossroads Part 2, while being visited by Roslin and Sharon in her jail-cell, Six says of their shared hallucination/dream in the Opera House: “I just knew I had to protect her with my life” her being Hera.
It is possible that Baltar and Six will take Hera to Earth “The home of the thirteenth” with the help of the final five. Remember the temple of five priests that revealed the identities of the final five to Diana? Well the final five may be the priests that helped lead the thirteenth tribe of humans to earth. Interestingly, it can be argued that the final five/ five priests all worship the one God who in mythology was the jealous God and may now be considered the cyclon God.
Thus far, Tory believes in the one God, Tyrol is on his way as evidenced by his hand shake with Baltar, Tigh seems to be falling in love with Six and six may use that to convince him to help Balatar and Her take Hera to Earth. So that’s 3 of the 5 who will probably be on board to help Six and Baltar get to Earth. Anders? He hasn’t expressed feelings about Baltar, but from tonight’s episode I believe he will have a spiritual awakening and believe in his destiny and the one true God.
Whoever the final cylcon is, he or she will probably play a part in getting Hera, Six, and Baltar to the Promised Land. What we all need to do is figure out why the thirteenth tribe went to Earth, how the final five came to fruition and joined the twelve colonies.
Did the final five originate on Kobol, go to Earth, and then return to the twelve colonies, awake, and are now leading the remaining humans and cylcons to Earth?
“Humans” die and do not resurrect.
“Cyclons” die and resurrect.
If the final five / five priests live in the space between life and death, do they have the ability to resurrect and die because of their connection with the one who’s name cannot be mentioned?
Is Hera the same as the final five? Will she live in the space between life and death?
Did Kara die and resurrect herself? Is kara the captain of the ship who leads humans to their end figuratively speaking? YES
or NO
Did anyone else notice the numbers on the ship that Roslin was on? “12, 11, 10, 9” The ships numbers are related to the final fives numbers because the ship takes humans and cylons to their final resting place and the final five live in the space between life and death?
The final five will lead the human race to its end because Humans die and that is where they end in the land that Roslin saw from the ship. Cyclons are machines and can resurrect, but do not know what it means to be human. The final five take the humans and cyclons to their final deaths and can exist in both worlds.
Hera is the shape of things to come because she is both human and cyclon.
Will Hera will be the beginning of life on Earth Or:
Maybe there are humans already on Earth and Hera will join them and assimilate into the population; Hera will have no knowledge of everything that led her to Earth, as she is only a child obviously. Life on Earth will carry on and one day humans on Earth will build Cyclon Centurion Model 0005 and all of this will began again. Interestingly, the descendants of Hera on Earth will have a linkage to the Humanoid Cyclons and Humans. They may be similar to Humanoid Cyclons, but may be “fundamentally different” as they can travel between life and death.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Well, I am so pleased to announce that my expectations for the kick-arse-ness of this episode came out to be true, and ladies and gents, I am giving my first 5 stars out of 5 for a Season 4 episode! That’s right, what does that mean? That “Faith” is by far my favorite episode of Season 4 thus far! It is completely awesome, we are back in BSG-bussiness-of-awesomeness.
Ok, well here follows my weekly Review/comments/theories/thoughts and speculations regarding the last aired episode of BSG. Yep, you guessed it, I dont expect this (or any of my weekly reviews/thoughts, especially the first one) to be any less than 1500 words
But you must know this by now, so lets get on with it 
*puts on the BSG Pilots JukeBox music to “The Shape of Things To Come”*
———Things I gotta get out of my system quickly ————
IS SIX DEAD FOREVER? No ressurection ship. I guess she’s not Caprica Six (cause she’s on the Galactica brig right?) she was the Six that got shot 18 billion times on Caprica, and the one who followed the actions of Athena while whe was escpaing with Helo right? If so, I’m not terribly sad to see her die. Didnt like that version of Six anyways
As long as Natalie and Caprica Six are fine, I’m good 
HOLY HELL BOOMBER IS DEAD! FOR GOOD! She was Boomber right? Boomber wore white usually on the Cylon Base Ship. Again, not terribly sad to see her go, she did shoot Adama after all. But I did like her pre-activation a lot. Oh well, they said Season 4 was full of death…they were not kididng. We got a death or more almost every episode. Some major ones. I mean, these are real Cylon deaths! We wont ever see Boomber or “Kara-butt-kikcing-Six” either.
THREE IS GONNA COME BACK, THEY HYBRID SAID SO :p WOOT! GO D’ANNA
KARA HAS BEEN TOLD SHE’S A TOTAL BADARSE, HARBINGER OF DEATH AND ALL…IN HER FACE! WOW.
Ok…I guess the rest is not worthy of capital letters…so I’ll calm down now
oh I forgot…HYBRIDS ARE FREAKS!
———-Overview and overall Thoughts———-
Well as I said, this episode gets the first 5 out of 5 stars from me and is by far the best Episode in Season 4. Maybe the others episodes had to be done, you know, character development and the “quiet before the storm” and I’m not saying they were bad, but maybe I’m just a “plot development” type of guy. Though I do belive both plot and character development and kick-arseness can get along and co-exist in the same episode just fine.
Ok, well, unlike most people here on BSGcast, I’m a fan of the Demetrius Arc, and when they tied it to the Cylon-civil war arc, well, that just did it. My favorite two arcs combined. This episode had all the great things about Galactica (well space combat was lacking…but we cant have that every episode anyways
).
Overall I thought it was a very well done episode. I LOVED the fact that finally Cylons and Humans have united, as prophecized by the First Hybrid,and hinted to by past episodes. It is finally happing guys…Cylons and Humans are uniting.
All right, lets look at the major arcs and scenes
————-Demetrius cliffhanger————-
I was very excited with the cliffhanger, and they did it beautifully. Everybody started shooting and getting trigger happy, it was so awesome. Poor Gaeta…but some say he’s the Final Cylon, perhaps he will die from this injury and re-appear as the FInal Cylon
It was a bit weird how they pulled out a Raptor out of their…um…pockets
It was sitting there docked to the ship, ready to be used. Where did it come from? Does the Demetrius have an internal hangar? It wouldnt right, else why bother with docking extensions and Vipers on the roof. So where the hell did the Raptor come from? sigh…
————–Six death———–
Again, this was some of the most intense stuff yet in Season 4. I totally did not expect for Six to be react so negatively to the whole “lets unite” thing. I thought out of all models, she’d be most ok to unite (besides Athena) because of Baltar. That goes to show you that even the same Cylon models can be radically different. This was proven by how differently Six behaved, compared to Natalie or Caprica Six. I was pretty shocked when she killed the human girl. Honestly, now that I think of it it’s really funny. The only “out of place” character was the “nobody” (no offense to the actress) that tagged along “cause she volunteered”. ROFL. Yeah…Moore and the writers made her “volunteer” to DIE! lol How funny. Anyways. I totally didnt expect them to shoot Six, mostly because I thought the whole time she was Baltar’s Six, i.e Caprica Six. But now that I think of it, she wasnt. Yes, she was the Six on Caprica, but the post-nuke-attack Caprica, not Baltar’s Six.
We are seeing for the first time lots of Cylons deaths, real deaths. SO for the first time, with the Cylon civil war and all, and cylons really dying, things are startting to go downhill for them just like for the humans. It’s good to see the Cylons so vulnerable for once. Their Base Ship totoally beat up (btw, very poor CG shot of that. Looks like it was done in a hurry, not done properly).
———–Boomer Death————-
Again, it can be confusing which Cylon is who, but we only know of two versions of Eight, Athena and Boomber, Athena was always with the colonial fleet, after her return from Caprica, and Boomber, after shooting Adama, was always on the Cylon Fleet. So pretty easy really to keep track, and we dont know of any other Eights, so we can safely assume that the Eight that died in the Hybrid room was really Boomber. May the Lords of Kobol take care of you Boomber. So Say We All.
It was interesting to see Athena not giving her hand, what was up with that? I didnt really get it. And when Anders comforted her, that rocked so much, however I was TOTALLY expecting him to reveal himself to Boomber (and only Boomber) say with a little red eye trick or something, and have Boomber gasp in awe and surprise right before she died. That’d made the perfect scene for me, but unfortunately it didnt happen…and Anders is keeping his secret so safe you sometimes doubt he he is a cylon! lol He still considers himself so human.
—————-BIGGEST REVELATION YET IN SEASON 4———–
Ok..again RDM and the writers are using the Hybrids to foreshadow things and help reveal things to us, make us understand.
Hybrid said this:
“The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the thirteenth”. (I’m using your quote Tokyo Joe
thanx 
)
First of all, this almost certainly means next episode we see D’anna come back, unless they dont look at the Demetrius arc next episode as they’ve done in the past few, alternating.
Also, home of the thirtienth…well this could certainly mean Earth, home of the 13th Tribe. So the Final Five are from Earth. But then, it could also mean the 13th Lord of Kobol, or God, or the 13th Cylon. So perhaps it’s meant to mean the Final Five are “Beings of Light” much like the 13th God/Lord/Cylon.
But more than likely it means they are from the home of the 13th Tribe, which must be Earth. Cause Kobol was home to everybody. So this is an astounding revelation that can truly help our theories. If the Final Five are from Earth, that means they are either members of the 13th Tribe of Kobol, or descendants who lived on Earth, or perhaps descendants who decided to go along with the exodus of the 12 colonies, and not follow the 13th tribe. But then, if they said “home” of the 13th, it’s gotta mean they are FROM Earth. Now how can that possibly fraking be right? Anders was a sportsman, Tigh a Colonial Officer, Tyrol and Tori all cleary have lived on the 12 colonies. But then, seeing the visions of the opera, where they are clad in light, and Starbuck possibly being one of the Final Five, who knows what these beings can do right? Teleport, travel different dimensions, appear to people etc etc.
My best guess is back to the DNA thing. And this leads nicely to the next segment:
———–Is Starbuck the Final Cylon?—————
This episode, as Tokyo Joe said, truly supports the theories that Starbuck is the last cylon. First, there was talk of her hearing music. And we know what happened to the other Final Four when they started hearing music. This is the first time Starbuck has heard “music” that apparenlty Baltar is directing (from Six of One). But more importantly, we hear yet again Starbuck talk of “smelling, hearing, seeing and feeling Earth, and swearing she had been there”. That is the key phrase. “swearing she had been there before”. This links her directly to what the Hybrid just said about the Final FIve, being from the home of the 13th Tribe.
Now, there have been theories that the DNA of the FInal FIve has been introduced by the Lords of Kobol/Gods back on Kobol and their purpose would have been of guiding the 12 colonies back to Earth. Tigh, Tyrol, Tori and Anders could simply be the lucky ones withe matching DNA, divinely created at the right time, and at the right places, to carry out the divine plan etc.
But this would imply that the Final Five have never set foot on Earth, that these memories of having been on Earth were implanted in their DNA by the Gods. It’s just a weak theory.
A stronger theory would be just saying it was Divine planning, or the Five are Divine themselves. I think that’s most likely. What gives this theory support is the Opera House visions. The Five are clad in white always, I’m sure this is more than just to hide their faces. They could have just have had simple hoods and cloaks or something. So the fact that they are “beings of light” truly means they are divine or have divine power bestowed on them, and have great divine destinies.
So when you belive this, then you can belive the FIve can do just about anything, teleport between Earth and the Fleet, die and come back (Starbuck), be able to communicate with machines (Anders and the Raider).
Either way…the Five are from Earth and this is key.
THat means that either Earth is filled with Cylons, and that the 13th Tribe was made of Cylons.
But what’s so contradictory is that “Cylon God” who “cannot be named” and according to Elosha (from the deleted scene in the DVDs) said that the war on Kobol broke out when one Lord of Kobol wanted to be worshipped above all others. Well the only “special” Lord of Kobol is associated with the Cylon God. So that means the remaining Lords of Kobol were “human” or rather favored the humans. But the “Gods” that favored the 13th tribe, favored them because they did not pariticpate in the War on Kobol. They remained loyal to the Gods, peaceful. While the other 12 colonies fought the war caused by the “Cylon God”. So this means…the 12 colonies were favored by the Cylon God, and are thus all cylons. While the 13th Tribe are humans, favored by the rest of the Gods.
Now this contradicts what the hybrid said in this episode, that the Five are from earth, and the five are clearly Cylon or Beings of Light, one of the two. They are certain more than human. This then implies that the 13th Tribe was Cylon or Beings of Light. Which implies the Final Five and the 13th Tribe and the Cylons were favored by the Gods. Which makes no sense, because the Final Five and the Temple of the FIve was build to worship “he who cannot be named” and the one true god, NOT the Lords of Kobol. This means they would have to be favored by the One True God, or the Cylon God. But that makes no sense, because it was “The Lords of Kobol, as a group” that favored the 13th Tribe, not any one God/Cylon God/Lord of Kobol.
THat’s what I cant get my head around.
See here are the two theories:
13th Tribe and Earth are Humans:
For this theory to be true, that means that the Lords of Kobol (all of em except the Cylon God/He who cannot be named) would have to favor them. Because the ones they didnt favor, went to settle on the 12 colonies without the blessing of the Lords of Kobol. That means, they’d be under the blessing of the Cylon/One True God, that means the 12 colonies are Cylon, which makes sense cause they created the Cylon robots/mechanized units. But then, this conflicts with the Final FIve being anything more than human, which clearly they are. And the Temple of the FIve worship the one true god, not the Lords of Kobol…right?
the other theory is:
13th Tribe and Earth are Cylons:
To support this, the One True God/Cylon god would favor the 13th Tribe, and the Lords of Kobol favor the 12 colonies. This would make sense as far as the Final Five, because they worship the one true god he who cannot be named, and not the Lords of Kobol.
So the two conflicting facts are these:
Lords of Kobol blessed the 13th Tribe and found Earth thanx to the blessing of the Lords
Cylon God rebelled against the other Lords of Kobol and started the Kobol war
Final Five worship “he who cannot be named” or the one true God.
Final Five are from Earth.
Now…put the pieces of this puzzle together…they are contradicting
I’ve tried, and I cant quite get things to work out. Unless the One True God is not the Cylon God or “He who cannot be named”.
——–Roslin arc——
Good stuff, but you know, whatever
I do enjoy the religious/spiritual aspects of the arc, I really do, but I just prefer the other arcs 
Ok darn, I passed the word count I had last time, so I better stop here, people must be throwing stuff at their screen by now for me to shutup.
But think of the four “facts” about the Lords of Kobol and the 13th Tribe and the Five that I presented. Please verify that they are indeed facts, and then try to put the puzzle together
The key fact that was added in today’s episode, was that the Five are form Earth. The other 3 key facts we know are that the Lords of Kobol blessed the 13th Tribe who found Earth. And that one Lord of Kobol started the war on Kobol. And the last key fact is that the Five worship “he who cannot be named”.
These facts are contradictory…but I’ll let someone else have at it
2554 words…jeesh…keep getting longer by the week
~Adalla
May 9th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
This was one of those episodes that will likely stand out with many of the other early episodes from previous seasons. While I think all of the episodes have been god this season, this one is a standout.
First, the opening of the episode revealed just how loyal Anders is to Starbuck and I think it is another part of her destiny. It is likely a design by whatever force is controlling their path that the “angel who will lead them to Earth” is married to one of the F5 –the potential Lords of Kobol as some have mentioned– and he has accompanied her on this journey that only a handful of people trust is Kara’s destiny. His F5 mission may very well be to be her unwavering protector, the only absolute advocate for her path. If that is the case, then the four revealed F5 are all on a path to fulfill a mission while never being aware of that fact. Perhaps Tory is to be Roslin’s unwavering supporter who will keep her focused on her destiny while handling all her other distractions. And Tigh’s mission could be to assist Caprica Six in some way to save Hera from whatever outside forces wish to do her harm, as indicated in the several visions we have seen some experience. Tyrol’s loss of his wife may have then be a way to push him toward a confrontation with the man he hated the most, only to accept him as an ally so that he could later protect him from anyone seeking to disrupt his destiny.
Therefor, the Four are protectors of the main players in this path toward humanity’s end. But what of the fifth? Well, it could be that the final cylon is the ultimate protector. Someone who has watched over everyone for as long as possible, always trying to push people in power in the right direction so that all the elements of this overall path will come together as they have and will in the future. We might even call that fifth the architect of destiny.
If the F5 are the Lords of Kobol, then something happened to cause them to split with the humans. It could be a change in belief systems or that the Lords of Kobol somehow failed humanity. If it is the latter, then it could be that the F5 do not have the best intentions. It is possible that the F5 are evil and that they seek retribution, or that at least the final cylon is orchestrating all of this as retribution for humanity’s exodus from Kobol and the Lords. If that is the case, then everything we have heard the hybrids say makes sense.
Kara is a tool of the F5. The F5 seek to destroy humanity by being led back to the place of their origin. They must not follow her. If they do, the only ones left will be the cylons. But, if the F5 are truly good, and are protectors of humanity, then they must follow Kara. Oh, there’s too much confusion… I can’t get no relief.
P.S.
Please check out my video for the first five episodes of this season, linked in my name.
Thanks.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Sorry to burst your bubble Adalla, but Boomer was on one of the basestars (with Cavill) that attacked the Sixes, Eights, and Leobens basestars. So, she not done yet, I think!
May 9th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Wow, now I’ve got to follow Adalla…awesome…
Anyway, what an amazing episode! This was by far one of the best episodes of ANY show out there. Period, it was a fantastic work of cinematography. In short, if this and the previous episode were edited together into one huge 2 hour episode, it would win an Emmy or at least some other kind of award. I think I just got Skullfraked, but in a good way.
Anyway, I’m liking the Anders human/cylon thing. He’s so confused, but also aware of what’s going on. The scene where he takes the dieing cylon’s hand at the end solidifies the ideology, at least for me, that cylons and humans really aren’t that different, maybe even the same. It really makes you wonder how the skinjobs are programmed. Do they actually have a computer wired inside that head of theirs? Maybe their DNA is coded in Quaternary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_4
Sadly, I missed a good chunk of Kara talking with he hybrid because my west coast aunt decided to call me at 12:30 AM (I missed the first airing, and I live on the east coast). Still, this remains the best episode of BSG I’ve seen this season.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
The final five are fundamentally different. They do not need resurrection ships; they live in the space between life and death.
“Humans” die and do not resurrect.
“Cyclons” die and resurrect with the help of resurrection ships.
The final five live in the space between life and death!! They do not need resurrection ships they live on the bridge/boat between life and death.
12, 11, 10, 9
Why would those numbers be on the boat without some relevance?
“The river that separates this world from the next. There is more to reality…there is another realm”
When Sharon is dying it is FRAKING Anders that helps her cross the river.
“Its okay I’m with you”
In that seen Anders is helping her cross the river! Since Anders lives in the space between life and death!
The final five know the way back. “Earth” isn’t what we think it is. “Earth” is the other realm and the final five have come from that realm. Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end because in order to find “Earth” humans must die and cross into the other realm!!
Holly FRAK is this it?
Did the one jealous God take the thirteenth tribe to “Earth” / the other realm because he knew in that other realm no other Gods would be worshiped !!
That’s it. In the other realm, there is the only God. The other Gods exist in this realm and they are powerless in the next realm. Does the Opera house represent a passage from this realm into the next without death? That is to say, that in order to get to the next realm without dying, one must use the Opera House as a passage?
Kara died and was brought back to this realm from the next. Of course she feels like she went to “Earth” because she crossed over!! And was brought back to this realm in order to precipitate the movement of the human race into the next realm where they worship only one true God.
Will the other Gods fight back! Will they work to keep everyone in this realm and believing?
So Kara may not be the final cylon. Okay, but she was brought back from “Earth” by the final five.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
just some quick throw-ins again, not a review…hitting a bud’s for a quick drink rite after this…
-Boomer is indeed still on Cavill’s baseship, which is the last time we saw her, she did protest Cavill’s attempt to kill all the other 8’s, 6’s, etc…so hopefully, she’ll screw over Cavill soon…
-i was curious as to whether “the missing three” was misunderstood and actually might have referred to Tory,Tyrol & Tigh who weren’t present…anyways, its obviously more likely about #3 d’anna…can’t wait…
-earth might be the one colony that believed in Cylon/Human peaceful co-existence, which could explain their departure from the 12 colonies and why the temple etc. keep showing signs of both human and cylon influences…the lords of kobols might be programmers and genetic engineers who started the technology for humans to download memories etc. and resurrect life after death…and somewhere along the way, they got mistaken for gods…maybe Cylons were just the name appointed to the next step in human evolution…theory time over, maybe i’ll run real review later…
-Adalla, how did u keep track switching back and forth with all those contradictions, u lost me hehe, i hope u got decaf hehe…just kidding, always good to have more input up in here!
May 9th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Holy frak, George. I think you may have just hit the nail on the head of the hammer of the… whatever! Well, maybe not entirely but it is possible that the F5 are guides toward the realm between life and death. I think part of what I said might hold true. Though, which god are they serving? The righteous god or the jealous?
Oh and Sharon did not die. That was just an eight.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
grr…
I have comcast and the cool thing about comcast is that usally after the episode at midnight they have the show on-demand with limted commercials. Tonight there is no episode 6.
Adalla I agree that keeping up with the cylons is confusing. I thought Boomer was the eight that sided with the ones, fours, and fives. I think Boomer started turning evil last season after Hera rejected her. As for the six, I think you are right about the one that was killed was suppose to be the Six that chased Boomer and Helo during season one.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
DarthRAzorback,
Thanks I feel like I’m so close to figuring it out. Like really close. obviously I’m not 100% right, but I’m FRAKING close!!
Even if I’m completely wrong, I’m happy and its because of Battlestar Galatica.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
I am just happy to see this episode answer a few questions but force us to consider even more. It is a very exciting time for BSG fans. Just when many were convinced of one thing, the writers toss in an episode like this and all of a sudden we are back on a far more spiritual track than I ever imagined. I love it.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Before I begin… George- it’s “Cylon”, not “Cyclon”.
Now, in the last posts, everyone was complaining as to why Athena wasn’t interacting with Leoban. In this episode, I think we get a clear idea on why: She hates the Cylons, even though she is a Cylon. This is even more apparent with her interaction with her “sisters”. And even when one of her model is dying, she doesn’t touch her (which is actually kinda strange, especially since in “A Measure of Salvation”, she touched a Model 8 Cylon to ask questions about what happened). Or, maybe she hates herself to the point where she can’t stand to see the other Model 8s and be reminded of what she used to be (hence the reason why she snapped at her “sisters”).
May 9th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
DarthRazorback,
I just re-read your post and think we are both on the right path.
Maybe Kara will lead the human race to the wrong realm or the wrong lord. Maybe she’s connected to the one evil God and her persistence to go the opposite path of Roslin is proof of that.
Roslin has been to the “Good” realm which was clearly evidenced in this episode! Roslin is the dying leader and ( please excuse my bluntness) since cancer is a slow death she is essentially being allowed to travel from this realm to the next. Thus, that gives more credence to the myth that a dying leader will lead the humans because only a dying leader can travel to and from the next realm essentially.
“I’m not ready.” Roslin isn’t ready to travel to the next realm until she can guide everyone to the home of Opera House that will allow something related to travel between realms? Maybe mass suicide isn’t an option, but the opera house is? Gotta sleep
May 9th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Adalla to answer your questions:
1. No, that was not Boomer that was killed. Boomer was with Cavil on one of the attacking Basestars (she was also there at the start of the episode after he downloaded). So, no, it wasn’t Boomer, but another one of the Model 8s.
2. No, that is not Caprica Six (aka Baltar’s Six) that gets killed. Caprica is on board Galactica. TBH, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was one of the Six’s that we’ve seen in the show (like the Six in Black or the Six in White).
May 9th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I just want to say:
Season One: Kara Brings A Raider back to the fleet
Season Two: Kara Brings Back a Heavy Raider to the fleet
(I think…”FRAK what next? The only thing she can bring back to the fleet would be a base star…)
and in faith she fracking does it. She’s like Adama’s outdoor cat that brings offerings of Cylon back to him
when ever she’s pissed him off some how.
Also…ahem…check out my Theory about the Cylon Home World being Earth posting from last weeks episode.
“The Road Less Traveled”
Because…oh the hybrid states that the final five are from Earth?… (forgive my smugness) te he he
Now…
“Faith”
So far my favorite episode of this season so far.
(not just because a piece of my diatribe theory
was confirmed)(or Kara returns with a Base-Ship)
Opening Scene:
Frak YAh!!!
Shooting Gaeta made me smile. Maybe he’ll drop
his sniveling sanctimonious attitude now that he’s going to
have quite a limp.
I’m sorry but for a guy who
is hiding something so dreadful he was willing to
murder Baltar over. Plus! If it wasn’t for Kara,
Gaeta would be space trash. Fracking ingreat.
After all Sharon/Athena resurrected and she was still
the same Sharon? Why would it be any different with
Kara if she were possibly a Cylon?
Kara was awesome in the opening scene.
She took back command of the ship the best
way possible. Breaks free of the marine to field
dress Gaeta and notice how everybody just obeyed
her every word. She did something that
the old Kara would have never done. She admitted
where she was wrong with little drama and
came up with a reasonable plan. Put together a
Raptor Crew and it was a done deal.
Rosalin’s scene’s with Major Kira….I mean whom
ever Nana Visitor’s Character’s name was were
very touching.
The Scenes on the Base Ship were incredible.
Natalie killing the 6 (BTW) it wasn’t Baltar’s Caprica
just another 6 was powerful.
Adama being vulnerable to Rosalin was so
touching. And Rosalin, in spite of the fact
that she is on her way out dropped it
to let him know that she was there for him
even though Kara might be dead and that
Lee is gone…. Very sweet and touching…
May 9th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Athena + Helo =
Love is a powerful thing.
I love their relationship! In spite of all odds their love holds them together. Why? Because it’s real.
If it were a story book romance it wouldn’t last.
No matter what they get put through at the end of the day they are all each other has and wants.
(re watch the scene with Helo and Athena looking over Hera when she was in the incubator. You’ll see what I mean.)
When ever the Cylon see Athena and say cruel things to her like, “Traitor”, “What’s this? Should we salute?” etc
Athena just say something along the lines of, “I made my choice.” And she did. Plus I think the Cylon are simply just
a little jelous because she’s the black sheep really living where all they are doing is existing.
The scene where she was unable to touch the hand of the dying 8 was symbolic of her complete separation
from the Cylon…While Anders coming to the dying 8 was symbolic of him embracing his Cylon self.
Very powerful scene.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Before the theory talk:
I thought this episode was absolutely brillant. And sorry Matt, no on screen Baltar, but he was there in spirit..er.. voice. And while it was not first, I want to just touch on the Laura stuff. I thought was ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL. It was done with just such a great touch of spirit. To see how heavily she was relying on Tori, and saying how now she has really stepped up, perhaps that she has accepted herself. The scenes in sickbay were great, between her and Nana. Just such a touching, lovely scene to see her accept not only her own mortality, but her mother’s, questioning her faith, which is something I think that all people in that situation do. Lovely.
Finally, this whole bad garbage scowl, oh now worse, stinky sewage plant has some drive to it. For a while there, I thought it was perfect, the smelly plot on the smelly ship. And now, it was just great! I loved the Sharon/Leoben bit, of him trying to get her to see this as a homecoming and her telling him to shove it. And even Athena with the Eights, telling them how to get a life. Brillant!
Now, really, I have to say that I loved Anders in all of this. The sneaky way he was trying to stick his hand in the interface in their command center, just made me laugh. And I think something that if you were in his shoes, hey, why not try it. And Anders and the dying Sharon.. well, hold that thought.
And I know, Kara Kara Kara. Well, she was finally told what her true destiny is. She will lead them all to their end. Her reaction I thought was just great. The pain born of that information played on her face. She is truly in shock. Though now she, and the rest on the basestar know that the five are from Earth. So what the hell does that mean???
Well, honestly, I think By George! You got it!!
I think that “Earth” while yes, is a planet, is something more then that, something bigger, and more spiritual, then a planet that can host human life. I think it is something beyond being able to fly to, land and say we come in peace. Another realm, another dimension, but it is something. And I think the Opera house could be the projection of the Final Five on how to cross over for Cylons. Humans see it as the boat, but the Cylons see it as something different. Why else did D’anna see it in the Eye of Jupiter? And then, boom, she died??? Why else would Sharon be freaking out that Six is carrying her daughter out of it?? She’s crossing Hera over. And if it is how Cylons cross over, perhaps the dying Sharon saw it as Anders helped her cross over, and that is what he did in that scene. Helped her to cross over. The only way to Earth is a final death. Resurrection is the thing that keeps the Cylons from getting there!
Now what does all this mean in the battle of One God/The Gods?? Well, I think the evidence tends to point to the fact that Earth is the domain of the One God. The Final Five are from/have a connection to/are the gate keepers and key masters of Earth. And since they are Cylons, I think that it is clear that they are One God teammembers. Does that me that the other Gods, the other Lords of Kobol can’t get in there? Perhaps. Is it that this One God is trying to wipe out the Lords by killing all of their followers? Can only true believers in the One God get into Earth? Is that why perhaps that the Dying Leader who seems to believe in the Lords will not make it to Earth? Does that also show why Kara was kicked out of Earth? We know that she does believe in the Lords of Kobol. What does that mean for the less religious of the fleet? Or those devout in their faith to the Lords of Kobol??? Honestly, I think that means no Earth for them. But, that’s just me.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
“-Adalla, how did u keep track switching back and forth with all those contradictions, u lost me hehe, i hope u got decaf hehe…just kidding, always good to have more input up in here!” – posted by Tigh
Honestly, it’s a mess in my head. Cause I’m getting more and more “facts” in there from teh show, so I know must be closer, but cant quite connect all the dots.
Perhaps this quote from Battlestar Wiki can shed some light:
“The Temple of Five was built over 4,000 years prior to the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, long before the Cylons existed. The Thirteenth Tribe would, logically, have no knowledge of these automatons in the strictest sense. However, the Thirteenth Tribe has significant prophetic insight, as shown in the works of Pythia. According to Colonial scriptures, “Five pillars of the temple were fashioned after the five priests devoted to the one whose name cannot be spoken”. This may have been another Lord of Kobol, given that on a deleted scene Elosha noted that the fall of Kobol and its civilization was due in part to a “jealous god”. ”
So umm…clearly no Cylons on Kobol….and look at the time frames. Temple of Five (and journey of 13th Tribe to Earth) 4000 years before fall of the 12 colonies. And Cylon War was 40 years before the fall of the 12 colonies. And first cylons not created much earlier than that. So we are speaking at max, 100 years of cylon existance…compared to 4000+ of human existance.
But then…perhaps there is a good reason why I’m confused. Because apparently RDM and the show is full of contradictions. Here’s another quote from Battlestar Wiki
“In “The Eye of Jupiter”, Tyrol says that “Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple’s at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.” This is the oldest date noted in the series’s timeline, but also conflicts with the prior date of Pythia and her works as described by Elosha in “Kobol’s Last Gleaming, Part I”, where she states that the exodus of all 13 tribes occurred approximately 2,000 years ago. Another contradiction occurs in “A Measure of Salvation”, when Adama says that “According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3000 years ago, right around the time that the 13th colony left Kobol.” ” – Battlestar Wiki
Other notable dates from Battlestar Wiki’s ancinet timeline:
Over 17,000 years BCH: A supernova creates the Ionian nebula
ca. 4,000 years BCH: The Thirteenth Tribe reportedly leaves Kobol and builds the Temple of Five on another planet [1]
ca. 3,000 years BCH: A beacon is left at the Lion’s Head Nebula, later marking the way to Earth. At some undated point, someone travels from Earth to Kobol, passing on information about Earth, including a map of its night sky [2]
ca. 3,600 years BCH: Pythia records her prophecies
ca. 2,000 years BCH: The remaining Twelve Tribes leave Kobol [1]
2,000 years to 52 years BCH: The Twelve Colonies grow and prosper. Each colony acts as a sovereign nation, complete with inter-colonial wars
BCH means Before Cylon Holocaust
At least 200 years BCH: Humans develop an immunity to the virus causing Lymphocytic encephalitis
55 – 52 years BCH: Somewhere during this time, the Cylons are built to aid in hard labor and warfare
So clearly there are conflicting sources as to when the 13th tribe left Kobol (anywhere from 4000 to 2000 years, i.e same time as the other 12 colonies).
But the important point is that cylons are not created until 52 years before the holocaust.
Also…last thing from BSG wiki, something interesting:
“In one of the extras included on the five-disc DVD release of the first season of Battlestar Galactica, Edward James Olmos (William Adama) remarks in a very jocular fashion that they will never reach Earth. Mary McDonnell (Laura Roslin) covers his mouth and tries to hush him while laughing. Although loyal fans may question the trustworthiness of this statement, it is known that the creators keep a “Bible” to the show, to which the actors presumably have access. ”
So perhaps, Earth is not really OUR Earth, but just a new beginning on a new planet
You know, I’m gonna call it quits for the night and let the stuff settle in my head for a bit
I’ll leave you all with one last attempt at a theory that just makes sense to me this very instant (it means, it might not make sense a few minutes from now
)
I’ve done a good 3 or 4 min of straight just…thinking on it, and it changed over this time to something completely different lol. But I love it…this show is so amazing that you cant figure it out, but you come so close.
Ok here’s it:
It revolves around Baltar and Six, the Seven and the Five, and the latest Teaser for 409, next week’s episode.
I think Six is the Cylon God and one of the Lords of Kobol, the one who wanted to be worshipped above all others. She got Seven of the Lords of Kobol to side with her, while 5 opposed, and this led to the war on Kobol. Six got the seven of the Lords to worship her as the One True God. While The other five Lords of Kobol did not want to worship Six, so they, and their followers, left to find Earth while the Seven Lords of Kobol that worshipped Six remained in Kobol. Six elevated herself to One True God. Baltar on the other hand is really the One True God, and the Final Five believe in him….
Ok…I just need sleep…I got nothing…I’ll have to wait to know who the Final Cylon is to truly get some of these theories sorted out. Or maybe just watch the show and shutup
~Adalla
May 10th, 2008 at 12:05 am
I have to say that ‘Faith’ is my favorite episode of the fourth season. It brings so much into focus. I’m now pretty sure that Matt’s idea of the BSG universe is right. I say this because if the final five are of Earth that means that everything could have come from Earth. Of course I could be as far off as the bald head was for the president. Seriously that looked awful and I’m glad they only had it for two scenes enough to get the point across. Speaking of the president how about her new and recently departed friend Nana Vistor *spelling* from DS9 another great Star Trek actor getting a good role to show off their talents and the scene with Roslyn and her on the boat, simply stunning. When she looks over and Vistor is gone, let’s just say I was a loss for words and I’m rarely that. I don’t want to write a novel about BSG even though I really could; I just really loved that episode and absolutely have to say something about it and the one person who I go into detail about BSG with won’t be at work until Sunday. I can’t wait another day after an episode like that. While I’m here I did want to say that my Friend and I enjoy the BSGcast and watch then some what religiously, in fact we use lines from your video around the work place. Sure it a sad and pathetic way to get through 7-8 hours in a 50 diners but it beats having to listen to 50’s music over and over again. Alright that’s it I’m done for now, can’t wait to see the new vid and oh, “Do your Job!”
May 10th, 2008 at 1:24 am
I didn’t transcribe this, but I thought I’d post it for the benifit of the BSGcast community. I find the line “The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.” of particular interest.
Hybrid: All these things it wants and many more, not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
None shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
Structural integrity of node 7 restored. Repressurizing.
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.
Intruders swamped like flame, like the whirlwind.
Hopes soaring to slaughter all their best against our house.
Kara Thrace: I’m here, you wanted me here, so…..
Hybrid: Replace internal ( ? ) control accumulators 4 through 19. They’ll start going ripe on us pretty soon. Compartmentalize integrity conflicts with the obligation to provide access.
FTL synch fault – uncorrected.
No ceremonies are necessary.
*** scene break ***
Hybrid: None shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
Sructural integrity of node 7 restored. Repressurizing.
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.
End of line…..re-sent.
Track node monitored. Malfunction traced. Recharge compressors. Increase the output to 50%.
*** (multiple hybrid voices are heard here) ***
1 – all these things are happening and more
2 – assume the relaxation
3 – not because it wishes transfers
4 – link the photons
5 – contact is inevitable leading to information bleed
Hybrid: FTL synch fault stands uncorrected. No ceremonies are necessary.
Kara Thrace: I don’t understand…..
Hybrid: Centrifical force reacts to the rotating frame of reference. The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant. The city devours the land…the people devour the city.
Leoben: You can’t hurry her, you have to absord her words. Allow them to caress your (?) mind. Don’t expect the fate of two great races to be delivered easily.
Hybrid: Assume relaxation mode. The photons in the (?) atmosphere is constant. Intruders swamped like flame, like the whirlwind. Hopes soaring to slaughter all their best against our house.
All these things it want’s and many more, not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
****************
Hybrid to Kara:: But you are a spark of God’s fire. Core update complete.
Kara Thrace: Frak. Unplug the **** thing, let’s get the frak out of here…
(The Six gives the eight the nod to break the Hybrid’s ’spine’…)
Hybrid: Threat detection matrix enabled. Dendritic response bypassed. The recieved dose is altered by the delayed gamma burst. Going active. Execute. The children of the one reborn shall find their own country. End of line…..
*** The Hybrid screams in a somewhat androgenous monotone as a nearby Centurian shoots the eight that broke the ’spine’. Everyone in the room shoots the Centurian. The Hybrid is still screaming, then she says…
Hybrid: Ask will it come to pass? The dying leader will know the truth of the opera house. The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the thirteenth. You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end.
End of line.
May 10th, 2008 at 5:44 am
@Sorshadeanin
You have provided some GREAT clarity about the Opera House. Only two people assumed to be “human” have seen the Opera House, Baltar and Roslin. Six, Athena, and Three are Cylons, and Hera is in the middle.
In regards to “Now what does all this mean in the battle of One God/The Gods?? ” that is a real sticky point and if we can all figure that out then we will know whether Kara is good or bad. Is Kara aligned with the “bad” Gods or the “Good” Gods?
“Can only true believers in the One God get into Earth? Is that why perhaps that the Dying Leader who seems to believe in the Lords will not make it to Earth?” Don’t forget that in this episode, at the very end Roslin is starting to believe in the ONE true GOD that Baltar speaks of.
I cannot figure out Hera. Will the realm that Baltar, Six, and Hera go to be the same realm that Roslin sees from the ship. If yes, then your point about humans and cylons crossing over by different means is brilliant. It would imply that we are all children of the one true God and we can coexist in the next realm together. If so, is Athena afraid of Six and Baltar taking Hera because she doesn’t understand this? In the next realm will cylons and humans crossbreed? How does the next realm “Earth” relate to the idea that all of this happened before and will happen again? Will this all happen again in the next realm, or will evolution happen again in this realm: monkeys to humans to cylons and then WAR and finally the discovery of our true shared natures as the “NEXT” Battlestar cast and cylon models cross over? HOLY FRAK? What is the answer?
May 10th, 2008 at 5:46 am
WOW! This episode was such a payoff! I’ve read everyone’s posts and all of us have great theories in my opinion. I’m so grateful to all of you for posting here…it just feels great to share my passion for this show with others like me.
I’m not going to prematurely acknowledge my thoughts on the whole religious side of things at this time. I have one idea that I want to leave folks with…
“You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end.” We all keep assuming that there is this mountainous burden on Kara that she will get everyone killed…what if we are taking the Hybrid to literally? Being a “harbinger of death” means you bring death to many. Well, Kara already fits that bill at this point and time. What if RDM is trying to take advantage of our expectations for a BIG ending? One could take the Hybrid’s words to simply mean that “while you bring death to many you will bring them to the END of their journey by finding the way to Earth.” What if the Hybrid’s words (if taken literally) are just being taken out of context and causing no one to believe that such a frakked-in-the head person like Kara couldn’t possibly suceed at something good? See what I’m saying?
May 10th, 2008 at 5:53 am
This is a seemingly intricate puzzle. My view of puzzles (and others of its ilk such as Sudoko) are that once you identify the core, the rest of it breaks down. In my opinion, the core is in physics. This must be set in the future because they hear the song which is clearly from our present time through BSG. BSG is functioning as nothing than a giant radio receiver…in this case receiving a transmission in their present which was transmitted in a time long ago. Radio waves travel through space at something around 300,000 km/second — so we know they are a freaking long way away…and thus they are receiving the radio transmission in our future and their present. This is key.
The second key is the dying leader and her conversion. As I stated above, this is clearly a reference to how Constantine ushered in the Christian era on his deathbed by his conversion to Christianity. Prior to this conversion he started the council of Nicene where the Bible was codified. On his deathbed, he pronounced Christianity as the true religion of the state. Clearly this is happening again. Nothing complex here.
The fact that the hybrid children (Hera and Chief Tyrols’s son) are boy and girl are not by accident. They will be the progenitors of a new race of beings on the new Earth. We know there is something about their blood by witness of what their blood did for Laura (btw, why don’t they just give her another transfusion — confusion factor there).
We see a mono-theist religion gaining strength through a “John the Baptist” type character. We know that in our history we had a poly-theist religion that was overcome by the one True God. History repeats itself and Laura is the one that is the actual stimulant. I can’t wait to see how Baltar and Laura — once mortal enemies — come together. That will be a dramatic show with two characters that have become transcendant driving a true culture change.
We know that anyone in the “last supper” picture cannot be the final “one” as we have been told by RDM as such (unless he is frakking with us). If you take him at his word on this, Laura and Adama are not the final one. Nor is Kara. I am convinced Kara is more like an angel trying to lead them to the promised land a la Moses. Remember that Moses led two races to the promised land. He was successful in getting the Jews to the promised land. He also unwittingly led the Egyptians to the promised land…only they perished in the “river” (hmmm, that metaphor of the river again). See the “Ten Commandments” or read Exodus to get a brush up on this. Therefore I don’t think we yet know what race is going to be destroyed and what race is going to survive…we can assume the humans survive and the bad cylons in their desire to follow the humans die. Perhaps kara is the harbinger of the (bad) cylons death. We do know she is not a final one because whatever happened to her “HAPPENED TO HER”. She did not cause it. She has no control over her destiny.
D’anna (3) is another key. She knows the final five and she will be unboxed shortly. Of course, we already knew that.
We know the Final five have a knowledge of their past that goes back eons. They also must be working in concert. We see them at the opera house together, not apart.
I therefore believe we are working towards two gigantic reveals. The first reveal will be the final one. That person must be either Tom Zarek (first name Tom and each of the final five have a “t” in their name) or Kara Thrace. It won’t be Gaeta, either Adama or Roslin. Therefore my bet remains Zarek given his “puppetmaster” status. Lee will be a Judas type figure (witness his position in the last supper picture — the same place where Judas was located). Adama will be “Zeus” brought down. Gaeta is a red herring. Baltar is “John the Baptist”. Laura is Constantine ushering through a government entity the era of mono-theist worship.
The second reveal will be the revelation that Hera and Tyrol’s son are the new Adam and Eve (doh, seemingly obvious, right? They will be so different than everyone!. They return in Earth’s future. Revelations 21 is brought to life. A new earth and a new heaven with a new Adam and a new Eve. Mankind gets a second chance after killing ourselves somehow.
My conjecture is the our earth of the future will be uninhabitable by the humans or the cylons. Only Hera and Tyrol’s son can survive. The final one takes them to earth. Kara turns out to be the harbinger of death for EVERYONE except those two.
The last scene will flash towards a thriving new race of beings that are led by “Adam and Eve”.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Well, this was a very solid episode and props to Nana Visitor for making me feel symptathetic to a character that’s introduced and dies within the same episode..
The Demetrius storyline was similarly gripping and exciting. Plenty of great moments to keep an eye on Anders. The deaths of Barolay (especially that “I’m ok” and then BAM) and the shooting of the Six were great Holy Frak moments. I didn’t really like the shooting of the Cylon Centurion, mostly because the effects looked absolutely awful. I don’t get it; it seems like every episode that includes special effects, they have great scenes and awful scenes.. As if there are two teams or two people working on the CGI, each producing radically different endresults..
The preview for next week didn’t exactly get my blood pumping faster; I’m a lot more interested in how Adama, Roslin and the civilians in the fleet will react to this ‘alliance’ and a bloody Basestar on their necks.. But hey, I have no doubt that I will not be dissappointed..
May 10th, 2008 at 7:09 am
By the way, I also meant to say that I’ve been visiting BSGCast.com ever since you guys started and have been enjoying every minute of it.. My compliments! Jarno, from Amsterdam – The Netherlands..
May 10th, 2008 at 7:44 am
What a great episode!
I really enjoyed it a lot. Definitely upped the ante with things. Makes me wish that the season was running uninterrupted for the entire season. But hey, I know that’s not happening. How many eps do we have left? 5? 6? I dunno.
But, anyways, great episode. Loved seein Nana Visitor in the episode, as I am a huge DS9 fan. It really moved the character of Roslin to a very nice point, and a touching scene with her and Adama.
The Hybrid’s words were very interesting. I had to rewind it several times to kind of get what the Hybrid was saying. I guess if I watched ahead, i wouldn’t have had to do that.
Can’t wait for what else is in store.
May 10th, 2008 at 8:23 am
TighFighter, that line about the children of the one reborn has been gnawing at me as well.
The hybrid said two things that I thought were significant:
“But you are a spark of God’s fire…”
“The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.”
As with everything we have heard since “Razor”, the hybrids speak in riddles that could mean hope or danger for the humans. Is the hybrid saying that Starbuck is a spark of God’s wrath? Or does she mean that Starbuck is just a small spark in the light of God?
Who is the one reborn? Jesus? Who is BSG’s Jesus? Baltar? One of the Final Five? Adama? Is the one of the F5 we have not yet met, as some have suggested, the original cylon and therefor the architect of the colonial humans as well as the skinjobs? Would that mean that they will all find their own world and live in harmony?
So many questions have been brought up by this episode. I am less sure now than ever what RDM has in store for us… and I am LOVING IT!
)
May 10th, 2008 at 8:24 am
How about this for an amusing irony, when Nana Visitor (who we know is the second actress that was on a “Star Trek” series to appear on this show) first shows up in the episode, you can hear Baltar over the radio. At that moment, Baltar says “undiscovered country”, which may be a reference to “Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country”, the final film of the “Star Trek” series that featured the full original cast.
May 10th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Amazing episode. Not too sure if this was mentioned because I haven’t had time to sit and digest all the comments above… but the whole “missing three will give you the five” could be interpreted a little differently.
Anders was right there at the time… but Tigh, Torrie and Tyrol were not. They could be the “missing three” and they could be the ones to locate the fifth, which would possibly put it at Baltar since they are all having story arcs around him currrently. i am not sure if I believe this interpretation, and I am very unsure about baltar being the final Cylon… but I thought it was a point that should be made.
It just seemed very strange for Ron and the writers to spell out so clearly what the hybrid meant like that… whic Deanna being missing etc. They do tend to drag things out and mislead us… so I still think the final cylon may well be discovered by the three T’s who were absent.
May 10th, 2008 at 10:10 am
There is a interview done prior to this season with it was revealed that D’Anna does come back.
May 10th, 2008 at 10:15 am
” I didn’t really like the shooting of the Cylon Centurion, mostly because the effects looked absolutely awful. I don’t get it; it seems like every episode that includes special effects, they have great scenes and awful scenes.. As if there are two teams or two people working on the CGI, each producing radically different endresults..” – Jarno
Jarno, you should read what Kelly Myers, a VFX consultant for Season 2 and 3 had to say about BSG’s VFX teams. Basically, he says there is some inconpetence in the in-house teams. I must agree, the VFX shots were horrible this episode, even the Base Star shot that is all beat up. It seems the different teams work on different shots, and some are better than others…
“Who is the one reborn? ” – DarthRazorback
I believe it is teh First Hybrid from Razor. And it is possible he is reborn as Hera. He spoke of “his children” and his existance coming to an end, to begin anew in ways uncertain.
It fits best the line ““The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.””
Of course Six talks to Baltar about their “children” and the next generation of God’s children. So the reborn one is probably either Baltar or the First Hybrid, I’m guessing the First Hybrid, as we actually saw him die.
Btw folks, there seems so much interest in discussing 408, I invite you all to stop by BSG Pilot’s Launch Tube (our chat room) where we host each week on Fridays, right after the episode airs, at 11pm Eastern, a live discussion.
I’m in the Launch Tube most evenings ready to discuss things in real time also.
So check us out. Click on my name for link.
May 10th, 2008 at 10:31 am
I cannot disagree with you more about the visual effects being bad. Look at any other special effects show on cable and BSG blows them away. I don’t know what you are expecting from a low-budget (at least compared to major network budgets) show, but what you see on BSG is pretty amazing for what they are working with budget wise. Sure, it could look better but they have a ton of cgi in these episodes and shortcuts have to be made. I think shows like Babylon 5 have sometimes laughably cartoonish effects that stand out from the live action elements. BSG’s effects are not seamlessly integrated into the live action world, but they are so much better than pretty much every other show that utilized the technology that complaining about it is, in my opinion, silly.
May 10th, 2008 at 10:49 am
An absolutely amazing episode. It was in one sense refreshing to see the mutinous moment of the last episode come to an end. The tensions were very high for a bit, but soon eased.
Kara came to her senses, slightly. Helo’s position was reasonable. Don’t risk the entire ship and its crew on a hunch, especially since the messenger is a Cylon we’ve had lots of dealings with before. Bad dealings, might I add. The plan to wait and send a single Raptor out was a good compromise.
Especially of note is we actually get to see the docking station on the Demetrius. This slightly satisfied me. I was one of many wondering how pilots get to those auxiliary craft on Demetrius. Still no clue on the Vipers, yet. I imagine there is some explanation somewhere.
Note about Kara hearing music:
This does not imply that she’s a Cylon. No, it doesn’t. Remember, Baltar made a similar comment to Tory a few episodes ago (and he wound up seeing a virtual. . .himself). Baltar and Starbuck can’t BOTH be Cylons. Can they?
A small criticism about something Matt and Nat said on a recent cast:
Virtual beings aren’t always Cylons. Of course, to explain this, I really have to ask how we define a virtual being? Is it really any person seen at any time in a non-physical way? Or are we talking only about those who fully interact with their hosts, like Six and Baltar. I ask because I believe the Admiral’s visions of his wife Carolanne are a virtual visions. She interacts with him and discusses the events around him, even rebuking Lee’s criticism. In my own humble opinion, these are the same elements we typically see in the Virtual Six.
This was seen in the Season 3 episode A Day in the Life.
I am also willing to give Laura Roslin’s vision in this week’s episode special status, close to virtual being. Okay, she didn’t really have a virtual vision as described above. I’m giving it special note because it was a shared vision with Emily. They were both aboard the same ship, seeing the same things. I think they even interacted, but it wasn’t entirely clear. I’m considering this a projection.
The point is: we need to be careful saying “this element proves Kara’s a Cylon.” Those same elements can be found in others, too. Let’s not be so hasty to conclude who the Final Cylon is at this point. Still a lot of Season 4 left.
I have 2 videos on YouTube discussing the Final Cylon. I’d really not like to discuss it anymore until I can proven right or wrong by the show itself.
Of special note is Laura’s hospital companion, for this reason:
Shortly before we see her, Baltar’s voice on the radio says “…the Undiscovered Country…” Then we see Emily, portrayed by actress Nana Visitor. The significance: The Undiscovered Country is the name of the sixth Star Trek movie. Nana Visitor is a Star Trek alumna known for portraying Major Kira Nerys on Deep Space Nine. I see a connection here. This might also be another nod to Ron Moore’s work on Trek in the 90’s.
The Hybrid’s statement:
Notice how the Hybrids spout random lines when connected to the ship, but when this one was unplugged, she howled for a moment, then spoke in complete thoughts. It’s almost as if the Hybrids are fully cognizant, but the operations of the Basestars require more than their full attention.
The statement is obviously important to the rest of the Season. It concerns unboxing D’Anna, and finding the Final Five. I take special note that the Final Five here are further confirmed to be fundamentally different, as Ron Moore has stated on occasion. They’ve actually seen Earth and know the way. I personally think the Final Five actually predate the other models by a considerable length of time, owing to them being seen in the Temple of Five on the Algae Planet. I think there’s a lot more to this story than we realize.
Kara is called the harbinger of death another time. Now, two Hybrids have mentioned it. Of course, Kara didn’t hear the First one. But this tells us, the viewers, that this is not just something being said. It’s important. Take heed. As to what it means exactly, that’s still a matter of interpretation.
Matt mentioned this in the Hybrid’s Prophecy cast: “the Harbinger of Death” line seems directly lifted from the Planet of the Apes. Perhaps it is. It was a key line in that film. What I find really interesting is that on Thursday night, just one night before Faith aired, AMC broadcast the Planet of the Apes. I found it a bit eerie, almost prophetic.
I’m becoming more and more intrigues with Cylon society. Earlier, they were willing to lobotomize the subservient machines, thus leading to the civil war. Well, actually, they set themselves up for that one. By boxing D’Anna, the broke the swing vote. Now, Boomer stepped up and took that place, further adding to the conflict. A civil war breaks out, Cylons kill Cylons, now some models are hunted like dogs. Some Cylon models are shown to be able to choose outside their original programming. Athena and Boomer both did, and they landed on different sides. Natalie and Leoben are openly discussing the Final Five. Something is going on in the Cylons.
Interesting, no? The Cylons are now just as human as the humans they destroyed at the beginning of the series. Some more than others, of course.
Finally, I see some significance with Anders’s presence on the basestar. He cradled that dying Eight, and said, “It’s okay. I’m with you.” I don’t think that’s coincidence. I wonder if maybe in her dying moments, that Eight could see past the veil of flesh and determine Sam’s true nature. She did seem to calm down a bit when he approached. I know it’s not much to go on, but I wonder.
Sorry that this post is so long. I loved this episode, and I had a lot to say about it.
May 10th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Well, well, well… It woould seem that Ron and Dave have redeemed themselves. After two “filler” episodes that were (to put it politelty) LESS than spectacular, BSG is back on the money. Last night’s episode was exciting from the very begining to the very end. I liked the scene between Natalie and the other Six. It was painful to watch but rewarding.
I also have to acknowledge the phenominal acting skill of Nana Vistor. We all knew her as Col. Kira Neyres on Star Trek: DS9 and I loved her acting on that show but last night was a far cry above and beyond anything she has done before. The scene between her and Roslin on the river almost had me in tears (And I am not the crying type).
I think that the entire storyline is starting to pick up now and I hope it only continues to rise from here.
Looking forward to hearing your guys take on this.
Oh, and Nat- Don’t cry to much for Gaeta. I’m sure he’ll be fine. Might be limping for a while but he’ll be fine.
May 10th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Sirslam,
Most of your ideas don’t make sense. Those that do are stupid. I’d be shocked if even one of them was true. Your facts aren’t correct either. What is wrong with you?
May 10th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Jeez Nickleto, it is just conjecture. Feel free to correct me, I am just here to learn — no need to flame, just correct me where you see fit! I promise to not to get mad!
May 10th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
“Jarno, you should read what Kelly Myers, a VFX consultant for Season 2 and 3 had to say about BSG’s VFX teams. Basically, he says there is some inconpetence in the in-house teams. I must agree, the VFX shots were horrible this episode, even the Base Star shot that is all beat up. It seems the different teams work on different shots, and some are better than others…” – Adalla
Thanks for the advice. I managed to find his website and see what shots he was responsible for and I’ve seen a few of his comments regarding BSG (he aparently didn’t like it that they killed Kat and Starbuck), but I haven’t been able to find anything with regards to the CGI. Could you perhaps point me in the right direction?
“I cannot disagree with you more about the visual effects being bad. Look at any other special effects show on cable and BSG blows them away. I don’t know what you are expecting from a low-budget (at least compared to major network budgets) show, but what you see on BSG is pretty amazing for what they are working with budget wise. Sure, it could look better but they have a ton of cgi in these episodes and shortcuts have to be made. I think shows like Babylon 5 have sometimes laughably cartoonish effects that stand out from the live action elements. BSG’s effects are not seamlessly integrated into the live action world, but they are so much better than pretty much every other show that utilized the technology that complaining about it is, in my opinion, silly.” – DarthRazorback
Actually, I’ve been watching all the seasons of Babylon 5 for the past few weeks (never actually managed to see the series in its entirety, only individual episodes). While I agree with you that it’s CGI wasn’t very good, one thing can be said about it: it improved as the series progressed. Battlestar Galactica started out with very decent graphics (the miniseries), followed by absolutely amazing graphics (seasons 1, 2 and the first few episodes of season 3) and then it suddenly started declining. There aren’t many shows on television (as far as I can tell) where such a thing has happened.. Look at the Star Treks: TNG, DS9 and even Voyager all ended up with better graphics than when they started, whereas BSG has had declining quality. That just isn’t right..
I’m not saying Battlestar Galactica’s graphics are absolutely awful.. I’m not even saying that this episode had bad graphics. There were plenty of moments that I enjoyed (the battlefield strewn with Basestar pieces, the explosions during the flyby, the creepy encapsuling aboard the basestar, etc.), but I really disliked the way the Cylon Centurion looked and how he dropped after he was shot. Not only did it look fake, it looked like it was put in at the last minute without anyone actually doing a quality check (especially since the Centurions looked pretty decent in the previous Cylon rebel scenes)..
And that is exactly what I’m critizing. I guess it just has something to do with trying to protect / improve that which you love. Battlestar Galactica has always had excellent CGI and to see that come into jeopardy is very disturbing.. That being said, I will not stop watching it, because the good storylines, the amazing actors and the drama is what keeps me coming back. No amount of bad graphics can stop me from doing that..
May 10th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Just saw the episode again on Sci Fi Rewind. Some more observations:
1. Athena holds Starbuck in a headlock. . . and keeps her held. If Kara were a Cylon, she should be able to overpower Athena, or at least come to a dead stall in a fight. We know the Cylons have some strength greater than humans, even the Final Five do. Tory demonstrates it twice, first by pimp-slapping Cally, and then in the next episode by pinning Baltar to the bed. Baltar says, “My you’re strong. . .”
I think is at least circumstantial evidence that Kara is not a Cylon. One could counter-argue that she doesn’t know it yet, and therefore can’t be expected to have the strength. But I digress. An observation nonetheless.
2. I’m now a bit confused as to what kind of handguns the Colonials use. Are they bullet-projectile weapons or particle-based? When Gaeta is shot, no effort is made to remove a bullet, and we have yet to see a ricochet in the series (unless I’ve missed something – please correct me if I’m wrong). I wonder what’s really in those guns.
3. We see a lot more of the jumping process in this episode. We actually see the initial jump to FTL in the Raptor, and a little bit of what FTL travel is like. Interesting tidbit.
4. For clarity, it’s not Boomer on the baseship. That’s not possible. Remember, Boomer is the swing-vote Cylon. She’s with Cavil and his fleet. No, we haven’t seen the last of her.
5. Something controversial: perhaps Felix Gaeta is the Final Cylon after all. Follow me here: Sam Anders shot him. . .in the leg. Remember when Sam was in his Viper in He That Believeth in Me, he tried to shoot a Raider, but had *accidentally* left the safeties on. He wonders later if it was no accident. Perhaps he was programmed not to shoot other Cylons. Well, here we have him shooting, but not critically. Perhaps he was only trying to injure Gaeta and not kill him. Many police officers do this. But if Gaeta were a Cylon, this might be a connection to what we’ve seen earlier. I don’t know, wouldn’t state it dogmatically. Just something to think about.
6. Something really interesting. “The comet. It’s the ship.” What the frak are we seeing here? Kara knows this place. She’s been here. I submit to you this theory: the planet we see is none other than the planet Jupiter. This means the Cylons here are actually in our solar system. Whoa, now! How close are they to Earth, really? Perhaps Kara’s mission is complete after all. But no real connection is made by any of the characters. So I’m still left wondering.
What I really want to know is if this is true, where did that Cylon battle take place? Was it here, in Jupiter’s orbit? Or was it elsewhere, and the derelict ships just happened to jump here? I don’t know, and I have no answers.
7. I did find it just a little odd that no one really seemed to notice Anders trying to touch the Cylon control console. It’s obvious no one suspects his secret, but I’d like to believe this would have made me a little suspicious. I would also really like to know what would have happened had he interfaced.
8. Furthermore, why does no one notice Sam overpowering the Six? She has Cylon strength, and he overpowers her. This is an indication that he’s a Cylon, but no one seems to care. I know. Minor detail. But it got to me.
9. Another note on the President’s shared vision. This further confirms for me that Roslin will be dead before too long. No, I’m sorry. Call me sadistic, morbid, whatever, but I believe she’s not going to make it to Earth.
10. Another note on Kara hearing music. Note that neither Sam nor Athena seem to. To me, this is further indication that she’s not a Cylon. What I mean is: if hearing the music is indication that one is a Cylon, why don’t these other Cylon models hear it? Further nore that Leoben doesn’t say that he hears it. He just knows what it is. Maybe he does hear; maybe he doesn’t. There you go.
11. The imagery of the Eight’s blood in the Hybrid’s pool was stirring (no pun intended – well, okay a little). Shortly after, the Hybrid tells Kara, “You are the Harbinger of Death. . .” The blood’s mixing perfectly set up that line.
12. Cottle’s statement: “All we can do now is keep her comfortable. . . That’s it.” Did anyone else find this chilling? We know it’s true, and we understand why. But I really felt this line. It was like a knife to the gut. Talk about the cold hard truth.
That’s it for now. 12 comments. 12 Lords of Kobol. 12 Tribes of Man. 12 Cylon models.
One will be revealed.
I’ve enjoyed reading the posts here already. I hope these observations can help in their own way.
May 10th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
“I’m not saying Battlestar Galactica’s graphics are absolutely awful.. I’m not even saying that this episode had bad graphics…. but I really disliked the way the Cylon Centurion looked and how he dropped after he was shot. Not only did it look fake, it looked like it was put in at the last minute without anyone actually doing a quality check (especially since the Centurions looked pretty decent in the previous Cylon rebel scenes).”
I’ve always thought the Centurions looked bad throughout the entire series, even the Centurion references in BSG: Razor. I wonder how much more satisfying Razor would’ve been had they used actors in Centurion suits, like in the original. but overall the cgi in BSG is excellent, especially the space shots/battle scenes. furthermore, BSG always has and always will be about the story, not the special effects imho.
May 10th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
This is for Jarno and President Cueball Roslin (
May 10th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Sorry. Statement didn’t seem to come through.
I was saying how remember when, once upon a time, use of CGI was praised just because it was there.
Now, some 15-20 years later, we criticize the use and overuse of CGI. I do it, too.
Interesting to see how things change over time, no?
I meant no offense to either of you.
May 10th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Hahaha.. No offense taken, Trueedge2097.. It really shows how spoiled we are, discussing the quality of CGI (or the lack thereof) in a show that shows us unbelievable and hugely imaginative scenes. I guess that, in a period prior to real special effects, people would complain about bad looking sets in order to have something to complain about..
In any case, good observation!
May 10th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Wow,
you guys wrote a lot of stuff. But let me be succint here:
THIS EPISODE FRACKING ROCKED!
I’m still too awe-stricken to write anything meaningful, so I’ll just leave it at that. Who said the Dimitrius arc was no good?
Peace and Love,
Ripley
oh, yeah: Anders had his hand in the cookie jar…
May 10th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
no offense taken. I’ve never been a cgi fan myself but I can take it in doses, especially when it comes to BSG. the cinematography in BSG is wonderful too – it’s part of what makes watching the show enjoyable.
May 10th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
“How about this for an amusing irony, when Nana Visitor (who we know is the second actress that was on a “Star Trek” series to appear on this show) first shows up in the episode, you can hear Baltar over the radio. At that moment, Baltar says “undiscovered country”, which may be a reference to “Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country”, the final film of the “Star Trek” series that featured the full original cast.”
LOL I’m am so with you on that one CB2001. I had the exact same reaction my first time watching the show. Probably because DS9 was my fav. of the Trek series and Undiscovered Country is one of my tops as far as the movies go.
My only minor gripe about this episode was the quick resolution of the mutiny, if you can even call it that. I was hoping for something more along the lines of “The Bounty” which others have mentioned on here, oddly enough I recently caught that movie on cable. I don’t know I guess I’m just irritated because the last two previews they kept beating the drum of “there’s going to be a mutiny… a mutiny…’; but instead it lasts for two scenes. One scene at the end of last episode and the opening scene of this episode. I understand why they had a quick resolution. If they have the full on mutiny with Kara, Anders and Leoben shotting their way to the Raptor, you can’t have Athena alone for the ride to Basestar. What’s up with Anders flying off the handle and shooting Gaeta with no consequences. I know he is a golden boy, in other words one of the final five, but come on, who shoots an officer and gets away with it. Instead all is forgiven and Dorthy and the gang skip down the road and are off to see the wizard, while poor Helo is left playing the waiting game and babysitting poor Gaeta. I understand why it went down that way, but it’s just a little hard to swallow in a otherwise perfect show.
May 10th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
2 Things on this Episode
I love Sharon’s comment to the other 8’s. Paraphrasing here “you guys make me sick; you pick your side and stick, you don’t cut and run when things get ugly. Otherwise you will have no life to call your own.” Nice use of our politicians words on the Iraq war (cut and run) to talk about loyalty.
I always love McDonnell’s heart felt scenes with Eddie. I have to come clean here, this women has made me teary eyed too many times over the course of this series. Her death will be heartbreaking when it happens. If she doesn’t get an Emmy it will be a crime.
Finally, the most interesting part of this whole series is head 6. Friends of mine think she is the final cylon, the one that cannot be named. Maybe, but I think she is a GOD or the GOD. This would be consistent when our Earth saw Jesus preach the words and feelings of GOD which motivated people to to switch from paganism to Christianity.
Baltar is currently protraying Christ and preaching the words of 6.
May 10th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
IS SIX DEAD FOREVER?
I hope so, because much as I love Caprica-Six it would be a cop-out to just ‘happen’ to have a Resurrection Ship in range. It would not only cheapen the voyage Cap-Six has been on from the very beginning, but lower the stakes of the Cylon Civil War. Natalie and ‘the rebels’ have got to have real risks, and real consequences for their actions — and where the Cylons are concerned, there’s nothing more serious than the true and final ‘end of line’.
It was interesting to see Athena not giving her hand, what was up with that? I didnt really get it.
I totally got it: Athena has chosen her side. It’s with her husband, her child, the Old Man who took a leap of faith in the dark to give her back a home and a purpose. She doesn’t trust Starbuck, and she sure has less reason than most to trust her own people.
“How about this for an amusing irony, when Nana Visitor (who we know is the second actress that was on a “Star Trek” series to appear on this show) first shows up in the episode, you can hear Baltar over the radio. At that moment, Baltar says “undiscovered country”, which may be a reference to “Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country”, the final film of the “Star Trek” series that featured the full original cast.”
Perhaps, but I’d like to think that at this point RDM and the writers wouldn’t undercut a powerful scene with a rather heavy-handed Trek in-joke. Remember in Hamlet’s famous soliloquy (which sounds better in the original Klingon
):
Hey, if some Colonial bard ‘wrote’ All Along The Watchtower, why wouldn’t the Old Man have a copy of a play identical to Hamlet? There’s something rotten in the State of caprica?
May 10th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
@George
It is obvious that Hera is going to play a role in the next episode, so who knows. Perhaps this message will be turned on its ear by then. But, perhaps Hera is what they have said in the past in the show. The first, the first of a new race, a new beginning whereas Humans and Cylons will be able to co-exist in the new realm, their “new home” to borrow a line, of Earth. Perhaps she is the message that Baltar, Head Six, etc is trying to get across. That yes, it will be the end of Humanity, and even the Cylons if Kara leads them to Earth. Why? Because for those that do get to cross over, there will be a new life. A new beginning and a new race, one where being a Hybrid of the two races isn’t the odd, but the normal.
And really, isn’t the fact that Baltar and other humans are starting to believe in the One God leading to the conclusion that both Humans and Cylons are all children of the One God. The same God? Baltar has told his followers that God loves them because they are perfect. Tori echos his words to the Tyrol that they were made to be perfect. The same message from two different people, two different races. All leading to the belief that whoever made them, both Humans and Cylons are perfect in the eyes of God. Therefore, worthy of his love, and perhaps a place in his house, aka Earth.
Anyway, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I must be the only one who was slightly annoyed by Ceelix and her reaction to Starbuck during the mutiny. she said something like, “I oughta airlock your cylon ass,” which seemed oddly out of character for her. she was a knuckle dragger last season and now that she’s a viper pilot she seems like she’s trying to wear pants that are a little too big for her britches.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Hi,
As i have been reading all of your posts which are really great, i’ve been thinking about what RDM said about the final five being fundamentally different than the other 7 cylons.
This makes the quote that we were given from the hybrid, make sense in a way.
“The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the thirteenth”.
I think that this is saying is that the final five were actually created on earth then sent back to the 12 colonies on a mission to accomplish something. Either lead the other cylons to earth, or lead the humans to earth.
As Tokyo Joe mentioned that kara has already said:
“I saw Earth! The shape of it, the smell of it, the feel of it on my skin, in my pores and I swear to you it was like I’d been there before.”
If we put these two together then at face value Starbuck is the final cylon.
And when one of the final five die, they are “downloaded” back on earth, then sent back to finish their mission.
If this was a detective fiction novel, i would be shouting right now that i had figured out the red hearing. I think we are meant to be thinking that Starbuck is the final cylon, but that is just way too easy.
I think that on dying kara became an angle which is meant to lead them to earth.
BUT i am placing my money on the final five originating from earth (the thirteen tribes home)
that is just my thought, but i do believe that the rest of the season is going to be very interesting
May 10th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Whoops… got to fact-check my own ass here. Caprica-Six isn’t on the baseship, but (AFAIK) still in Galactica’s brig having her twisted quality time with Tigh. Also, as far as I know, the only time Cap-Six was killed on New Caprica was when ‘Dirty Harry’ Doral shot her in the head in Precipice, not by Barolay.
Still, I suspect Guess What’s Coming to Dinner (worse. episode. title. ever. BTW.) is going to have the most uncomfortable meal in BSG history, since Ellen Tigh drunkenly came on to everyone except Laura Roslin in Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. (And another bottle of ambrosia or six, and I’m certain she would have gone all the way there.
)
May 10th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Again, I’ve got to register a dissent here. I can understand why everyone on the Demetrius (except Helo) is not pre-disposed to give Kara the benefit of the doubt. And is it just me, or does Seelix have a wee bit of a crush on Anders — at the moment, he’s not the one who might as well have “I’m a fraking Cylon” tattooed on his forehead.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
okay, has any1 c that star sign near the basestar the Ursa Major or the Great Bear i think its called, it looks like it abit. also can sum1 send me f final cylon model info and hybrid and profaces info beacuse i hve a thoery pleas
May 10th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
TOUCH THE GOO ANDERS!
Was anyone else chanting “touch the goo Anders!”, “touch the goo Anders!” when he was at the Cylonbastar command controls? I am waiting for BSG to reveal the identity of one or all of the last four cylons to some other character so that they may explore that arc in some way. I still am a strong believer in Dualla being the final Cylon, although Gaeta is a close second. Also, I wanted to mention that towards the end of last season, Gaius said to Gaeta “I know your secret,” right before Gaeta stabbed him in the neck and this has not been revealed or even contemplated at all since then. I was wondering if anyone else thought about these similar events? Anywho, this by far was the best episode of the season and I can’t wait for more.
May 10th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Here’s my two cents thrown into the ring….
Loved this episode. The Demetrius arc finally really heated up for me starting tith the last episode extending into this one. What made me stand up and pay attention to this episode were two things in particular. The Six’s revenge killing against the Resistance fighter who drowned her, and the Hybrid’s revelation.
Starting with the revenge killing. I guess that Resistance fighter, Jean was her first name, I forget her last name, picked teh wrong time to leave teh ship, huh. She gets aboard the Raptor and goes along with Starbuck because she thinks Starbuck has ‘been kicking ass since day one’ and if she knows the way to Earth, Jean’s game.
I guess you should have stayed behind, honey. Your days were numbered.
Moving on to when the Six and Jean crossed paths, perhaps Jean should have stayed quiet? The Six says that Jean left her to drown in a septic tank on New Caprica and watched her die like Six was some sort of insect. Now first off, what did Six really expect. Six was and is the enemy and Jean killed an enemy. Besides, the Cylons should not be throwing stones about horrible deaths, seeing as they cosigned billions to nuclear fire. It’s the pot calling the kettle toaster. (A little Cylon reference.)
Now it’s been said before that resurrections are not always a good thing. It appears as if that particular Six was psychologically damaged by the way she died. It just goes to show you that while the Cylon’s resurrection may look cool, as death is no longer an end, but an obstacle, because you don’t die, you retain the negative aftereffects of your death. Death then becomes not a release, but a black stain on your soul. The Six did tell Natalie that the manner in which she died was not something she could ‘get over’ although Six and Natalie had talked at length about it. The fact that this Six sees the face of her murderer in her dreams hints that Cylons are much closer to humans than previously thought.
Moving on to the issue of the Hybrid, it was said in an earlier post that the Hybrids appear to have moments to clarity and brilliance in between the meaningless drivel that comes up most of the time. That earlier post theorized that because the Hybrid is connected to the ship, that greater awareness and data coming in from sensors and DRADIS is distracting. Being disconnected allows the Hybrid clarity again, as their’s no white noise of extra data coming through. Now the fact that the Hybrid made another prophecy, it appears to me that the gift of prophecy could be a real psychic gift. The Colonial religion has prophets, Laura Roslin has and has visions, perhaps what they see is not delusions or dreams, but something real brought on by an actual psychic gift. The fact that Roslin is dying may mean that her psychic gift is stronger, the candle burning brightly before going out.
Part of the Hybrid’s prophecy is that the 5 come from the home of the 13th. Obviously Earth, the home of the 13th Tribe.
So here is MY crazy idea. It has been theorized that is humans did ever create AI, that eventually the AI would be able to assist in it’s own development and eventually improve on itself and evolve at a geometric rate. This is a very simplified explanation of the idea of the technological singularity, when technology and AI become so advanced that humans fall out of the equation very quickly.
Now, what if the Cylons came from Earth? Bear with me. Suppose the 13th Tribe built machines and AI that outlasted them after the 13th Tribe declined and became extinct from some fort of malady or disease. Earth is wiped free of humans, but their legacy lives on. Eventually those Earth AIs begin to explore the universe and some eventually find the 12 Colonies out far in the galaxy. Suppose those Earth AIs were shot down, or captured, or crashed somewhere on one of the Colonies?
Cue this advanced AI and computer technology studied by Colonials and eventually Cylons, the Colonial version of AIs, are born. Fast forward, and everything happens normally, such as the First Cylon War and everything else. The 12 humanoid models carry within them code basic to who they are, but the Final Five carry within them code closer to those Earth AIs and can instinctively remember on some level about Earth?
Not outside the real of realistic possibility, considering the show, and it would kick ass if I was right or at least close to the truth.
As for the mysticism and strange events that pop up through the show, often concerning Baltar? Perhaps the head Six and the Beings of Light do exist, but they’re Ascended humans, similar to the ascended human concept in Stargate, Some of the Ancients Ascended and became more than human to be safe from a disease?
Although this last part would be a ripoff of Stargate, it could be possible, although to be fair, I never paid as much attention to the religious or mystical aspects of Battlestar Galactica as I did the action and the Cylon parts.
May 10th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Hey Craig, how did you quote on this thing? It’d make distinguishing quotes for our own text much easier. Is it the usual [quote]quote[/quote] marks? We’ll see I guess
“Thanks for the advice. I managed to find his website and see what shots he was responsible for and I’ve seen a few of his comments regarding BSG (he aparently didn’t like it that they killed Kat and Starbuck), but I haven’t been able to find anything with regards to the CGI. Could you perhaps point me in the right direction?” – Jarno
Jarno, go to http://www.battlestarvfx.com and read his tutorial. Half his tutorial is actual tutorial stuff, the other half is his bitching about some VFX people on BSG. Miniseries and Season 1 and 2 were done by Zoic Studios. I think the last show Zoic did was the Gina making the Nuke blow in the Fleet taking half of it out, and something hitting the camera (btw, probably one of the best shots in the whole series). The other outsourced VFX studio I know did and still does work is Atmosphere VFX, which is doing work for BSG still I think. But I think there were complaints about the Los Angeles in-house team. There was also a Vancouver in-house vfx team.
Also if you want more insider info read Myers’ interview http://future-past.com/interview/kellymyers.php
““I cannot disagree with you more about the visual effects being bad. Look at any other special effects show on cable and BSG blows them away. I don’t know what you are expecting from a low-budget (at least compared to major network budgets) show, but what you see on BSG is pretty amazing for what they are working with budget wise” – DarthRazorback
I dont believe anyone is criticising the VFX of the entire show here Darth. Some of us actually are more critical about the VFX simply because we know the standards that BSG has already set in the miniseries and in Seasons 1 and 2. So we are only comparing certain VFX only to it’s own standards. Plus, these days making VFX is very cheap anyways. All you need is a computer and some software.
I think what we are trying to say (at least I am) is that not all shots in BSG are the same quality, and it’s disappointing to see bad VFX from a show that has wonny Emmy awards for VFX and set the bar higher than anyone else. BSG CAN have extraordinary VFX, and especially seeing there are so fewer shots in space in Season 4, there should be absolutely no reason not to have them be top notch.
“I’ve always thought the Centurions looked bad throughout the entire series, even the Centurion references in BSG: Razor. I wonder how much more satisfying Razor would’ve been had they used actors in Centurion suits, like in the original. but overall the cgi in BSG is excellent, especially the space shots/battle scenes. furthermore, BSG always has and always will be about the story, not the special effects imho.” – President Cueball Roslin
I must disagree. I loved the CG Centurions a lot. They are very well done, but I agree with Jarno, the last Centurion shot in the hybrid room was not the same quality as the past shots. I must also disagree that BSG is only about the story. Yes the story and characters are spectacular, but BSG is and always will be a SciFi show first, and whatever else it might be second. And BSG has redefined standards for SciFi television as far as drama and character development, quality etc. But most especially, BSG has redefined visual effects standards forever. I dont think there is any other show that comes even close to BSG’s VFX. In fact, few movies come close. I must say the only shots that compare to BSG’s space shots is the intro space scene on Star Wars Episode III, when there is that giant battle over coruscant. I think it was Ep III anyways. And we are talking Star Wars here…which is why ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) was created back in the 70s and redefined special and visual effects. BSG vfx I believe has been of the same standard if not better in many cases than Star Wars and other major feature films.
I think BSG has changed television history on many fronts, and VFX is certainly one of them. The other of course…is SOUNDTRACK. I dont think BSG would be half what it is, without McCreary’s superlative music.
“I was saying how remember when, once upon a time, use of CGI was praised just because it was there.
Now, some 15-20 years later, we criticize the use and overuse of CGI. I do it, too.
Interesting to see how things change over time, no?” – trueedge2097
Well, computers are advancing so fast, and CG is advancing just as quickly, so it is only natural for people to expect higher and higher standards and quality of CG on screen.
I personally readily critize BSG visual effects because I’ve done BSG visual effects and animations myself on my spare time, and I’m aiming at becoming a professional CG artist one day. So that’s why I pick apart and analyze all the CG shots in the show
And most of the time it’s absolute praise, like the amazing work in Episoder 403 and 404, like Racetrack’s crash, etc.
By far, BSG has super-amazing CG work 95% of the time. But if we want to be honest and give our honest thoughts, then we gotta criticize CG as well as the rest.
One thing I have not had anything but positive things to say on BSG is the acting. And I doubt I’ll have to say a single negative thing about acting ever. Which is surprising, considering most of the actors are unknown and new to the industry.
~Adalla
May 10th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Heh after reading the hybrid prophecy a few more times, something crossed my mind, between the hybrid prophecies and the last supper analysis website I posted last week, it’s almost like trying to crack the De Vinci code.
Anyways here’s my half ass attempt to try and crack the lasted in the BSG code line by by line….
All these things it wants and many more, not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
*No idea. Maybe she is talking about god. The chaotic flow of life. That sort of thing.
None shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
*I’m thinking this means that no one will like the final conflict/battle/resolution between the humans and cylons.
Structural integrity of node 7 restored. Repressurizing.
*Could be related to the Baseship’s funtions. The other thought is if the final cylon is number 7 the hybrid could be talking about the awaking of the final cylon
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.
*Like I said before, this is the line I found most interesting. There are many different tangents you can go with. I’m thinking the children are the cylons and “the one” is the final cylon. The one reborn could mean a number of things. Hera could be the the one reborn, maybe Kendra Shaw? Or it could simply mean that all the other cylons come from the final cylon. Another view could be to take the word children literately meaning Hera and Nicky and place all humanoid cylons as the one reborn. The cylons being reborn humans in a sense. One final thought I had was maybe you can take one in terms of the cylon numbering. In other words, Cavil reborn as the leader, now dictator, of the the oppossing cylon faction. The children being the 4s/5s and Boomer.
Intruders swamped like flame, like the whirlwind.
Hopes soaring to slaughter all their best against our house.
* Again, I’m fumbling in the dark with this one. Who are the intruders, cylons or human? The only thing I can up with is that that maybe humans/the fleet are intruding on Earth and the cylons are already there. I’d like to see what others think about this line.
Hybrid: Replace internal ( ? ) control accumulators 4 through 19. They’ll start going ripe on us pretty soon. Compartmentalize integrity conflicts with the obligation to provide access.
FTL synch fault – uncorrected.
No ceremonies are necessary.
* I don’t think these last three lines mean anything. They are just functions of the Baseship. I will say the word ripe gives me pause though.
None shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
Sructural integrity of node 7 restored. Repressurizing.
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.
End of line…..re-sent.
*See explantions above
Track node monitored. Malfunction traced. Recharge compressors. Increase the output to 50%.
*More ship functions
*** (multiple hybrid voices are heard here) ***
1 – all these things are happening and more
2 – assume the relaxation
3 – not because it wishes transfers
4 – link the photons
5 – contact is inevitable leading to information bleed
Hybrid: FTL synch fault stands uncorrected. No ceremonies are necessary.
* I’m just as confused as Kara at this point. More ship mumbo jumbo mixed with things that may or may not have meaning.
Centrifical force reacts to the rotating frame of reference.
* This is an interesting line. I don’t what to make of it. Who’s point of reffercne is she talking about? Ours as the audience? cylons? human? The four reveled? I’d like to see other people’s take on this line.
The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant.
* Another fun line to dissect. I have two different takes on this one. One this could mean the Centurions being influnenced by the hybrids. Notice how the Centurion jumped to the hybrid’s aide when she was in danger, this was very similar to the old school Centurions protecting the hybrid in Razor. My other theory is that the solider could be Tigh who is now coming under the influence of 6.
The city devours the land…the people devour the city.
*This one is a mystery. Is this something that will come to pass: we get to Earth and RDM decides to throw us some kind of environmental message about how we humans have already destroyed earth. Or is this something that already happened?: a nod to the upcoming Caprica series which was essentially destroyed by humans by creating the cylons. Maybe this could be what happened to Kobol.
Assume relaxation mode. The photons in the (?) atmosphere is constant. Intruders swamped like flame, like the whirlwind. Hopes soaring to slaughter all their best against our house.
All these things it want’s and many more, not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
*Explanations above mixed with the photon phase which I have no clue about. Seriously I can’t figure out if all the stuff about photons and gamma ray or whatever means anything or not.
But you are a spark of God’s fire. Core update complete.
*Someone noted this earlier… Kara’s destiny as either the wrath of god or the light of god.
Threat detection matrix enabled. Dendritic response bypassed. The recieved dose is altered by the delayed gamma burst. Going active. Execute. The children of the one reborn shall find their own country. End of line…..
*Here it seems the hybrid is giving a command to the centurion to help her and then we get the one rborn line again.
Ask will it come to pass? The dying leader will know the truth of the opera house.
*The safe bet is to say we are talking about Laura here. Obviously the opera house has to do with the space between life and death that the 3s were so obessed with. For some reason though I get this feeling that who we believe is the dying leader could be a false assumption. Anyways I’ll just play along say Laura will discover something about the opera house when she dies.
The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the thirteenth.
*D’anna naming the the final five. Again another safe bet, but may be misinterpreted.
You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end.
*What we already know from Razor. Maybe the point of refference line can be connected here. Who’s end? Humans or Cylons? What end? The end of life? The end of thier journey?
End of line.
There you go folks. My mussing on the latest prophecy. I’d very much like to see others thoughts and interrpurtations.
May 10th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I just finished watching this episode… In my opinon it’s been one of the best episodes in the series. Right up there with Maelstrom. I really want to think it through thoughtfully before I give my detailed opinon on it. I just couldn’t resist raving right away. Fraking Awesome!!!
May 10th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
FAITH:
(the adreniline of anticipation)
we finally figure out the paintings that were that of the basestar already guessed by matt & nat.
The demetrius story arc had a great ending ,not that many shots of Helo well next week however should be better . In this episode
it shows how much the viper pilots in the fleet don’t want Athena there after all this time and all she has done for them, but it’s true she is a cylon a fact that she denies at every turn especially when her sister eight died as she reached for Athena for that sisterly bound
that was showed between the two 6s’ earlier in the episode. She has become so cold and selfish full of selfhatred you’d swear she was human. Whoever made the cylons made them so human that they shouldn’t be seen as machines they are a people , childrenlearnig from scratch and without guidance what they need the most unable to cope wit tragedy that it ruins them for life. (from the looks of next weeks episode she’s gonna lose it.) She’s not really fllet , not part of the cylons. The only one like her is Boomer truly alone ex-
cept maybe Helo and Hera. And that’s how Cavil was able too get his claws into Boomer in the first place.
The scene with the multiple sharons at the begining was a bit creepy , just not use to see so many at once in one scene . must have been alot of the time with the greenscreen. The 8s’ on the basestar seem ditsy, naive knowing they want something but don’t know how to get it for themselves.
Another episode in which I loved Anders. I think Anders accepting his place in the story that’s being told, he’s
curious how it is to be a cylon ( when he tried to put his hand on the gooey control panel) Anders is starting to see the smaller details in the big picture. Just let him hit leobeon a couple more times before the end of the series, please.
The “FAITH” episode also showed a softer and vulnerable side of the cylons there were times I felt like crying,I sympathized so much with the cylons more that I have ever in the last four seasons, if I had to choose who I would let live on earth I would choose the cylons with the exception of the cavils ( every family has one). I love the 6s’ so much they have an affinty with pain yet so vulnerable to it. I kept thinking of Gina episode Pegasus. They show they are truly sentient species that they in part show that the cylons aren’t machines but a race, a culture with their own traditions as put by leobeon in the miniseries. Another part of the prophecy from the hybrid in BSG Razor of the alliance between homosapieins and organic mechanical. I fear so much the ending and I know it is not an end but a begining.
PS trekkies did you catch Nana Visitor from ds9.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
continuance:
I forgot to mention Laura Roslin, is she the final cylon and the dying leader. The hybrid said the dying leader finds the reason for the opera house it’s the opera house that Baltar saw in his dream on Kobol announcing Hera’s conception and soon arrival. So if Roslin isn’t the final cylon someone else close to Kara is because the four cylon s that were revealed Cheif-friend Tigh- superior Anders- Husband, perhaps Lee- lover or Admiral Adama- father we know karl isn’t a cylon and Baltar is more of a Prophet or guardian so I guess we will have to wait ti see.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
““The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the thirteenth”.”
I think someone said this already but this might be another red herring meant to confuse the audience. I personally think it’s straightforward – that D’Anna is the key to finding the final five. another interpretation someone pointed out is that “the missing three will give you the five” could mean Tigh, Tyrol and Tory will find out who the 5th cylon is who happens to come from Earth. but the language suggest it’s the former and not the latter.
May 10th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
There are a few things that are notable in this ep for me:
This episode was so full of tearjerkers for me, I was an embarassing wreck: When the 6s said goodbye to each other before she was killed. When the 8 was killed and Anders held her so gently. When the terminal patient was explaining what it feels like to die. When Roslin was explaining the death of her mother.
I think one of the most undervalued performances of the show this season has been Gaeta’s. His sarcasm has been hilarious. The funniest things on the show this season have been when Baltar said “Well, she is a very sexy lady” and pretty much everything Gaeta has said. I think if he had more lines in the Demetrius storyline, it would have liked by more by people. I wonder how his performance is going to change now with his predicament.
The line by the hybrid implies strongly that the cylons have been to earth or rather that the existing cylons’ ancestors came from earth or had been there at some point. She says the five come from the home of the thirteenth, so they had to have been there or been developed there at some point.
You don’t get to see such a raw depiction of cancer on tv much (or ever imho) Watching the woman was really rough. I’ve never really appreciated what cancer can be. (Unless you’re educated on it or had a personal experience with it, how can you?) I still can’t say that I know but this representation seemed more open than you ever see on tv. This really changes the Roslin story if her experience has the possibility of making her deviate from her crazed rule of the government. I can’t really figure where that Lee-Roslin-Zarek thing would go now. (or she just might go right back to normal in the next ep)
May 10th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Does Anders have super-Cylon strength? He brought that Six under subjection easily, didn’t he?
May 10th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Just to comment on Seelix, she is obviously in-like, if not more, with Anders. So, she would like it nothing more than if Starbuck was out of the picture.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Well, this was a very good episode.
Question. Did you all notice that Anders told the 8 a similar thing that Emily said she heard when she had her vision/dream? She said she felt a presence hovering all around her and said “…don’t be scared Emily, I’m with you…”. And after Athena rejects the 8, Anders swoops in and “hovers” over her and tells her “Its OK, I’m with you”. A friend and I talked about it afterwards. He said he got chills when he heard Anders say that. Was a pretty cool moment since Anders said he’s seen that 8’s look on human faces. Interesting to see him try to comfort a cylon on her deathbed.
I know a lot of humans suffered on New Caprica, but I felt really bad for 6 after hearing her tale on the planet. Looks like that experience really disturbed her. Well, I’m sure dying the way she did would have that effect on anybody, cylon or not. It also looked like Anders regretted what happened after Natalie shot the 6. He got to see his and the resistance consequences on the cylon mind. He probably wasn’t expecting that they have breakdowns and all like humans do.
Everyone in the theater cracked up when the centurion was shot. I wasn’t laughing at the CGI. I was lauphing at how it fell. It reminded me of Family Guy. You know when someone falls in the show, they have that really dramatic fall with their leg to the side. It reminded of that. lol.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:58 am
By your command, Adalla.
Seems to work for me. Don’t know it it’s pertinent, but I use Firefox 2.0 so the tag format might be different for you. I’m a total tech-tard.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Grrr… Instead of ‘quote’ in the tags use ‘blockquote’, and use those greater than/less than things instead of square brackets.
May 11th, 2008 at 3:06 am
Its seems to be we are all of one voice on this episode, and I’ll have to agree.. Awesome..
There is not much left to me to comment that not already been said, but something Dethklok spoke of has sparked something.. the AI evolution, and the cycle of Battlestar.
“It has been theorized that is humans did ever create AI, that eventually the AI would be able to assist in it’s own development and eventually improve on itself and evolve at a geometric rate.”.. True, and nice Terminator reference =P
Here’s my train of thought, and forgive me if none of this makes sense, especially my spelling =D
Earth.. the beginning, the end. Humans, as we know them, evolve to the point where they can successfully create artificial intelligence.
The technology is improved upon, and thereby improves itself.. e.g. Robots > Droids > Androids > Organic Tech > Artificial Life.
What I mean by AL is the recreation of humans, including all of our flaws and limitations. Not super strong, super intelligent entities.
They will still however use machines to do menial or dangerous work.
At this point, my assumption is that the humans and for a lack of a better term “skins jobs” co-exist, no war, no revoluton. Generations go by to the point that no-one can be assumed to be human or artificial. There is but one new race. Hybrids. But this race is still referred to as human. But Earth has only so much floor space, so colonisation of other worlds begins. (An Eco-Disaster could also cause this)
They head out into the stars and stumble upon the 12 worlds that are to become the 12 colonies.
Generations pass again in relative peace, and like any society, history is lost in time. We only have to look at ourselves for that, otherwise why would tracing family trees be a big thing. So much history is lost to the colonists that they themselves don’t remember their real human+tech=hybrid origins. The remaining stories become religion, so much so that the origin story of Earth becomes a point of grievance. Resulting a a group of colonists leaving their new home in hope to return to Earth.
The colonies start to improve upon their own machines, creating better machines, creating AI.
The Cylon (as we know it) is born. Peace exists for a time, but eventually war between creations and creators begins. Which is not surprising with 12 worlds all having their own point-of-view, political agenda, and religion.
The Cylons retreat to the stars, where they evolve themselves into better machines, which unfortunately for them is to be more like their creators.
They return, driven by vengeance or cruelty, destroy the 12 colonies, and chase the remaining few human survivors across the stars, who will nothing else to loose decide to follow those who left them eons ago, in the hope that the story of Earth true.
Along the way infighting between all the races causes internal fractures and new alliances to form. Those who survive, and for this to work is has to be the good guys =P, find Earth and rejoin the lost tribe. Generations pass and history becomes legend and here say.
But Earth has only so much floor space, so colonisation of other worlds begins.
Only an idea sparked off by Dethklok, and I know for this to hold water, the history and stories of the Humans, Cylons and Hybrids needs to be lost, but the cycle gets to repeat itself over and over.
Anyway, if you got this far, thanks for reading =D
MatrixZeroOne (UK)
May 11th, 2008 at 6:11 am
“There is another realm….” – Baltar
It ain’t heaven. It’s some fraked – up twist. I feel it in my bones.
May 11th, 2008 at 6:14 am
Also, hybrids are perhaps the coolest godsdamn thing in this show.
May 11th, 2008 at 6:21 am
@ Brian… Agreed.
Whoever the actress is, I’ll look it up in IMDB later =P, is brilliant and deserves alot of credit.
To recite the random internal communication / function of the ship and then mixing in the often beautiful revelations in a completely dead pan emotionless machine way, yet still have it sound human is awesome.
And then as the ship is disconnected, to have the emotion suddenly enter her face and eyes as she finally see Kara was a defining moment in BSG to me. I hope this isn’t the last we see of her.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:36 am
one glaring omission i’ve always had a problem with during the series is that we never get to see the cylon home world. all we know is that the cylons had an armistice with the colonials and for lack of a better term, remained at peace with them for 40 yrs. that is, until they decided to show up and annihilate humanity. so, revenge aside, why did the cylons leave their homeworld (wherever that is) and does it still exist? they’re clearly following the fleet to Earth but to what end? also, in season 1 Caprica 6 made reference to the earlier centurion models still being around and that “they serve their purpose” or some such thing – I wonder if this was a reference to the Guardians we saw in Razor? or, are the older cylon models used as slave labor in the cylon heirarchy? I’m going off on a tangent here but with this being the last season I feel like there are still holes that need patching up.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:41 am
I’m thinking there may be an alternate reality being involved with whats going on. How, I don’t know.
May 11th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I was pretty worried about Boomer like Adalla was, until I reasoned out that we had last seen her on the attacking side with Cavil. That confusion, along with the nameless Six getting it Mafia Execution style in the same episode, made me really wish the writers had spent some time giving names or designations to these characters. The writing team wants to have their cake and eat it too: a race of identical beings, one indistinguishable from the next, yet the audience needs to be able to empathize if we’re killing them off.
Tricky.
Begs the question, if we can see two brunette 6’s (Natalie and Gina) to help keep them all straight, why couldn’t we see some 8’s with shorter hair? Or some funky Blue and Pink streaks? I’m just sayin’
~Matt
P.S. Come on Ryan, ‘filler’? A.K.A. motivation, relationship and character heavy, GAME CHANGING episodes… but not the pay-off. Faith was some long-awaited pay-off… that wouldn’t have been half as satisfying without the ‘filler’ to get us there
May 11th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Hey, I was checking Bear McCreary’s Blog ( http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/ )for his musical breakdown of “Faith” and he had a post about the concert he had last month. It was a totally fun concert. The first show sold out very quickly so they added a second one a few days later. I went to the first showing because I was in Los Angeles at the same time for another event. Yay for me!! G4TV was there as well and created a segment for it.
Check it out!!! http://www.g4tv.com/thepile/videos/21659/Geek_Out_BSG_Live_The_Music_of_Bear_McCreary.html
May 11th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Ok everyone, I have had a few days to process the episode and I want to ammend my comments accordingly.
1.) Matt- I guess I can see your point on how the last two episodes served as the buildup and this one was the pay off. As a writer, however, I was not very happy with the last two episodes and here is why- EVERYTHING that happened in the last two Episodes could have been summed up in one episode and left a lot less dead space in the story. After all, each episode is supposed to move the enitre story line along in some way shape or form while telling a smaller story in it. It’s like photo mosaic puzzle pieces. Each one has a story of it’s own that fits into the larger stories. The last two episodes could have been combined into one to make a good story. Instead, they filled it with other stuff that bogged it down and turned it into a mundane exercise in procrastination.
I know that I sometimes have to resort to filler scenes when I write Battestar Prometheus but two episodes that are stretched to the limits like that is just too much. Even “The Woman King” had an internal story.
2.) I will agree with you (Matt) on this point though: This Episode was indeed the PAYOFF. I was very happy and impressed by how it was written and how it moved the story along at a good pace while keeping the integrity of the details. I also liked the B-Story which was Roslin dealing with her inevitable death. It was touching and powerful. And I have to give a lot of credit to Nana Vistor. She carried those scenes. No doubt in my mind that Roslin was the supporting character in them.
3.) The scene at the end was very heart touching. For just one flicker of a moment we see a vulnerability in Adama and we see Roslin, weak and dying as she is, step up and offer the old man reassurance. It was a great touch of humanity.
To the others on the board here: I see a lot of complaints about VFX and such but I think they looked good enough. Enjoy the show for what it is. I doubt that any of us coudl do better.
Also, here is a tidbit for you: RDM has said in multiple interviews that the final Cylon is NOT pictured in the “Last Supper” photo. This means that neither Roslin, Adama, Lee or Starbuck (the most popular subjects of speculation) is NOT the final Cylon. Personally, I think the final Cylon has something to do with the RAZOR telefilm. Either Kendra Shaw or Helena Cain. Maybe even Ellen Tigh?
That’s just my oppinion though.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:08 am
“Personally, I think the final Cylon has something to do with the RAZOR telefilm. Either Kendra Shaw or Helena Cain. Maybe even Ellen Tigh?”
see my post about Razor and Adm Cain as the 5th cylon. it’s totally plausible with her background, but we still don’t know about the final five and their ability to resurrect. perhaps as beings of light they don’t need to resurrect in the cylon tub of goo sense, but maybe in a way as yet unexplained.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Nice, this site is taking off.
I figured there had to be some kind of discussion board on this fantastic show.
Dear diary: Jackpot!
All I want to add to this already very detailed discussion is how memorable this show is.
How season one is so different and far away from season four. The intricate developments, the consquences of events from the past.
and also a great attention to detail of little moments that add so much, with just the simplest gesture.
For example: Anders slowly reaches for the control panel in the baseship, being drawn in wondering what would happen if he were to touch that panel. Despite the tense situation.
Another one, my favorite, only just poking out above the rest mind you, is when Adama shaves his mustache after the second exodus. The way such a small gesture is so very telling about the character.
Season Four really is turning out what promised it to be.
A lot has happened since the first of the season, we’re currently at number six,
and they have fourteen more in store!
it will be good.
Signing off, I salute you.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Yeah, well the reason I was shocked is because we were only presented 2 versions of the Eights. The first one was Boomber who was always on Galactica until she shot Adama and got shot in return. After that, she was always on the base ships. The second one is Athena, which we first encountered on nuked Caprica, and then from then on she was among the colonials in the Fleet. And whenever we saw an Eight in the Fleet, we knew it was Athena. Whenever we saw an Eight in the Cylon Fleet, we knew it was Boomber. When did we ever get to know any other Eights close up? The only other Eights we ever saw that I recall, were in groups of like 10+, like when Boomber was on the Base Star about to blow it up, or in the last episode, when Athena got back on the Base Star with the Demetrius crew, and encountered over a dozen of her own model. But none of them were identified uniquely.
Ah wait…my bad, there IS a third Eight that we got to know in Season 4. It is the Eight that sided with Six and the Twos. She was at the table of ‘negotiations’ it was her, and Natalie facing Cavil. And before then, during the “vote” it was Leoben, Natalie and this other Eight, vs Cavil, Simon, Doral and Boomber. I never thought twice about that Eight, I thought actually it was an “Athena” model on the Cylon base ship. But there cant be two Athena’s right?
See that brings me to my question. How unique are the Cylon models. We know from Eight that Cylon dont have a directly wireless link to the rest of the Cylon. So they cant have instant knowedge of all the other Cylon, even their own models. The only time a Cylon gets info on any other Cylon, is when they are downloaded into a new body, or I’m guessing, when they connect physically with a Base Ship or another Cylon. That’s how the Seven give orders to the entire Cylon Fleet, put their hands in that red goo and give orders to the Hybrid, Raiders and Centurions. It is how they figure out what’s happening also, you dont see any monitors displaying data like in a battlestar CIC or even any voice alerts. So it’s all through the physical link.
My point is, there is only one Athena and one Boomber and one Natalie etc at any given time. That model’s entire memory/experiences are stored both in a body (the one that is currently alive and kicking) as well as the Cylon mainframe, that exists aboard Ressurection Ships and Base Ships. So basically when a Cylon dies, all their memory is transmitted wirelessly long range to the Ressurection Ship, and their “account” for lack of a better word
gets a “Windows Service Pack” update if you will to the lateste version of the software 
Then this software/memory is downloaded to a new machine (body). And then that body continues to create and store new data, from that specific person’s experiences. And those experiences are not known to any other Cylon, until they are downloaded I’m thinking. That is why Athena knew about Boomber’s love affair with Tyrol, even though she had never met Tyrol in her life. Basically when Boomer died, and her conciousness was transmitted to the mainframe/ships, Athena had somehow this information downloaded as well. So basically I think every Cylon model gets a “update/download” of the from the latest death of their own model. So this means, since Cavil mentioned that there are “millions of twos with that nose” and “millions of eights with those breasts” well then we are to assume that Athena has the conciousness of millions of model Eight Cylon in her brain/CPU. And I’m guessing they get these “updates” whenever they die. Again just a guess.
BUt my point is, it’s not real time, and each incarnation carries with them all the memories that make up that particular conciousness. So I guess now that I think of it, it is not stored on any Ressurection Ship/mainframe, and all the other Cylon of the same model dont have the entire conciousness of their model. Because if that were the case, if one Cylon body dies, who cares, you have millions of other cylons that have the conciousness of that cylon stored in them, and the cylon mainframe has it too, so basicaly just download it into a new body. You simply would not get the “very latest update” because that cylon who just died out of ressurection range could not transmit the latest update.
So the fact that if a Cylon dies out of ressurection range truly dies, means that the data on that Cylon’s unique experiences is ONLY stored in that Cylon’s brain, which makes little sense. But that just makes every cylon incarnation that much more unique.
Anyways, so what are your thoughts/guesses on how the various Cylon models know about the others’ memories, and yet, when one of them dies, those memories are gone forever? Why not sore them in a central mainframe computer as well as in all the millions of other Cylon of that model?
Yes, true, we couldnt do better, but THEY can, and they have. So no reason to not have top notch VFX in Seasons 3 and 4, just like in the Minies, Seasons 1 and 2. And to each their own, as I said, some of us deal with VFX stuff so we are more critical.
You gotta belive anything RDM says to us?
But I must agree that the events in Razor will be linked to important developments in Season 4. I’m positive that the First Hybrid and Kendra Shaw and their little chit chat have something to do with it all. In fact, I believe the quote of “the children of the one reborn shall find their way home” or whatever refers to the First Hybrid and his children. He spoke of his children after all. I still pray to the Gods that it is Baltar…I honestly would be very disappointed if Baltar was not the Final Cylon…there is too much evidence that it is him…
~Adalla
May 11th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Just rewatching this again and I’m being reminded of something. I relised it as Anders almost put his hand into the interface thing on the Basestar. Why didn’t any of the finnal 5 get the virus or whatever it was that destroied all the other Cylons?
May 11th, 2008 at 11:06 am
“Just rewatching this again and I’m being reminded of something. I relised it as Anders almost put his hand into the interface thing on the Basestar. Why didn’t any of the finnal 5 get the virus or whatever it was that destroied all the other Cylons?”
they never really went back to that story line to full explain why the cylons were infected to begin with, other than that it was a virus from the beacon. again, this is what makes the final 5 different from the other models. they’re susceptible to illness but maybe only human illness
May 11th, 2008 at 11:35 am
OK how could Starbuck have seen the gas giant and a shooting star unless she traveled in time? I just wonder if the Starbuck we see here is one that went ahead in time to see Earth somehow passing by all of what we are watching now. It is a point to ponder. I also wonder is the Gas Giant is Jupiter?
Sam flipped the 6 like a toy. I think he is stronger than the other Cylon models. This could mean that the final 5 are stronger than the other 7 and defiantly an upgraded version.
The woman who died talking to the President is Maj. Kera from Star Trek DS 9. Yet another tie to Star Trek along with the weapons locker 1701D. Just a gee wiz thing.
Wonder wehre they are going with the Christian spin. Well it looks like a Christian spin. I don’t know if I should get offended as a Christian of not. I’ll hold my opinion about that once it all plays out. Might be a good thing.
Now onto my favorite of all. I love to listen to what the Hybrid says and figure out its hidden meaning. The Cylons are onto something by believing that the hybrids can see into the future. Only thing is ciphering between the ship status information and what is actually saying something. What follows is what I think was a message. I left out the stuff about ship status.
“All the things at once and many more not becawes it wishes harm but becawes it likes violent vibrations to change constantly. Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance. These children of the one reborn find there own true country intruders swarmed like flame like the whirlwind. Hopes soaring to slaughter all there best against our hulls. Their start going ripe on us pretty soon no ceremonies are necessary. The obstinate toy solder becomes pliant. The city devours the land … but you are a spark of gods fire.”
“Thus it will come to pass the dying leader will come to know the truth of the opera house. The missing 3 will give you the 5. Who have come from the home of the 13th. You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace you will lead them all to there end.”
Nobody but Athena and the 6 on the Galactica know about Roslyn seeing the opera house along with the 6 and Athena. Herrera is the 13th I think looking back at all of the sessions between Baltar and head 6 about her being so important. So the home of the 5 is the Galactica. Somehow the Presided who is the dying leader will figure out the truth about the Opera house. IO think it has something to do with Herrera and she was the one who was connecting Athena, 6 and her together in the Opera house. The Opera House has the clue to how they find Earth.
May 11th, 2008 at 11:46 am
I would like to take present my theory which somewhat relates to what MatrixZeroOne said
“Generations pass again in relative peace, and like any society, history is lost in time.”
“Stories become religion, so much so that the origin story of Earth becomes a point of grievance. Resulting a group of colonists leaving their new home in hope to return to Earth.”
What if the twelve tribes where originally 12 groups of space colonists from earth who were identified by the signs of the zodiac, the colonists become caught up in their mission and embrace elements of Ancient Greece and Rome in to their mission/society to create a Esprit de Coeur as they set out and settle on Kobol.
The twelve groups of colonists arrive on Kobol to establish a world on Kobol. Away from the influence of earth, the Colonists to begin to loose touch with their earth identity, to help themselves cope and survive mentally and physically they identify more with their zodiac designation. Over the course of time they become entrenched in the religion of Ancient Greece and Rome and become the 12 tribes as opposed to the colonists they originally were. The time comes to return back to earth and “twelve Lords” of the tribe did not want to go back, “tribal warfare” raged. With all going on a group decided to go to back to earth and the Return party (the 13th) go back to earth and leave the “12 colonies” to live as they want to. With the destruction of Kobol by warring factions they move onto the 12 planets and the Colonies each settle a planet.
Because of unforeseen solar anomalies and Nuclear waste from the war on Kobol, the earth Attaché is delayed in coming from earth to see the progress the colonists have made. When they arrive, they observe that this society as taken on a destiny of its own and their earthly origins have been lost. After much discussion and debating the Psychological and Sociological communities on earth, it is agreed that they will observe but not interfere with the history that is unfolding amongst the 12 colonies. Representatives from earth keep track of the society and as in the case of Tyrol’s parents keep track of the astrologic phenomenon that could impede their trip back. When the Cylon war breaks out, to remain safe they do not expose their identity, not even their children know that they are actually from earth, this knowledge is then lost to the Final Five, the only earthly survivors of the Cylon holocaust.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
My standing theory about the Cylons is that they’ve evolved beyond their original specs — their software and their hardware aren’t totally in sync, so to speak. We’ve already seen multiple examples of Cylons acting against their programming: Caprica-Six murdering Cap-D’Anna in Downloaded; Gina, when you cut the crap, committing suicide; Boomer violating the convention that, ultimately, models come to a consensus and stick it; everyone saying “we’ve not supposed to talk about the Final Five” while… well, talking about the Final Five.
Let me turn your question around and ask this: Why would an individual Cylon (with the Download beta upgrade) want to keep secrets in the first place? In one of the podcasts, RDM said he thought of the Cylons — at least the Significant Seven, who the frak knows from the Final Five — as a ‘young race’. While they’ve vast technological advances over the Colonials in many respects (more advanced FTL, biotechnology on a whole other level, downloading), they’ve only been around for less than half a century. They’re like teenagers trying to figure out who they are, and what their place in the universe is. And teenagers sulk, keep diaries and crap poetry in locked draws, roll their eyes and flounce out of the room when you ask innocuous questions about where they’re going etc. The difference being that when they get all emo, their tantrums tend to involve high end thermonuclear weapons.
Which is a long-winded way of saying that, I guess, the S7 don’t have their memories stored “in a central mainframe computer” because the original designers never saw the need. Remember, the original plan was wipe out the Twelve Colonies with no resistance, spend a couple of days mopping up the stragglers and jump home in time for one of Dorral’s yummy lattes.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
(First, a small housekeeping note for Matt and Nat. I know in some forums, multiple comments one after the other is bad form. Sorry for that, but I don’t have Adalla’s talent for drawing my first, second and third thoughts together in one provocative and stimulating essay.
)
Another thought on ‘downloading’ — we’ve seen in recent episodes, and the New Caprica arc last season, that repeated downloading is increasingly painful and psychologically traumatic. How much of that is the (perfectly understandable) distress of carrying memories of being murdered (in many cases, slowly and in great pain)? And how much is a flaw (or deliberate limitation) in the process itself? Just look at the Hybrids and the Raiders. The Hybrids are great as, in effect, an organic CIC for the baseships. But in the view of most of the Significant Seven, that very hyper-awareness has made them bat-shit crazy. And who cares about what the Raiders experience while bieng destroyed and downloaded over and over again. They’re no better than animals.
Would having your mind regularly downloaded and distributed in a Borg-style hive mind eventually drive a Cylon mad?
May 11th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
I don’t think is a mass Borg-Like knowledge assimilation when they die.
I think it’s more of : As the conscience/soul/ghost-in-the-machine is literally riped from the dying Cylon and it passes through the resurrection ship a blog, wiki or twitter if you will of all the important acts/facts the Cylon has performed in created and dumped into the Cylon mainframe. To retrieve the information you have to literally access it via the ‘goo’.
If it was an instant transferral throughout the models, either for all or a singular type, then each ’skin-job’ would have a understanding of what the others have been through, leading I would think to a greater sense of family and kinship, rather than the fractured nature of the Cylon’s we are seeing.
E.g. Boomers trouble after resurrection with the other models. Caprica’s doubts of the extermination goal etc.
Also, I doubt the un-named 6’s want for revenge is the only one. Now that the centurions have free will, do you think they will support the Cylon-Human Alliance, or fight it?
May 11th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
LoL, yeah right. The way it works for me, especially after just seeing a new episode, is I’m overloaded with excitement and I’m like a cup that’s overflowing and my first instinct is to get on BSG Pilots to first get on BSGcast.com and unload all the ideas and thoughts and feelings that built up for an entire week into a BSGcast.com comment, and then once that’s over, go to BSG Pilots’s chat room and continue to unload the rest of my thoughts onto the poor souls that end up being there for the discussion lol.
Oh, and I should point out, most of the time I write a bunch of stuff like a good 500 even 1000 words, and WHILE I’m writing, new ideas and new theories and form in my head! And that’s not cause I’m crazy and cant stick to whatever I’m saying (well that too but
) there is a scientific explanation for it. The act of verballing saying something, or writing it down on paper or typing it, is called “objectification” of thoughts. And once you “objectify” those impressions and thoughts, your mind is basically ready to absorb new thoughts from your subconcious and come up with even more ideas and connection that would not have been possible had you kept it all in your head and not objectified it. I”m not making this stuff up, go read up on objectification and the interaction of the sub-concious with the concious 
Ok, so yeah, I manage to keep it all in one giant comment, but you’ll see me jumping back and forth a lot of times, and that hurts the flow and cohesion of the comment, but oh well
MatrixZeroOne,
good point. See I tend to compare the Cylons to the Borg in Star Trek. The Borg have absolutely no individuality. Borg people are just tools, extensions of the collective. And I’m thinking Raiders and Centurions especially, at least before their “upgrades” were just like the Borg with very little individual free will. Scar showed that he has some free will over his actions, but he was most likely ordered by the “collective” Cylon to ambush and attack any Colonial/human that came across it’s path. It just has some leeway on how to carry out that order.
But the skin jobs, they certainly dont take orders from anyone, although Boomber did prove that they can be forced by their programming to do things against their will, or without even being aware of it.
Though it does seem clear that each incarnation of a Cylon has a unique personality and is a unique being. Which is a bit strange, considering that it “seems” all other Cylons of that model have access to all the memories of every Cylon of that model.
For example, we know Athena has Boomer’s memories of the love affair with Tyrol. The question is, would Athena be able to BECOME Boomer? If she has the same exact body, and the same exact memories…then what exactly makes her any different than Boomber? She can “choose” which version of an Eight she wants to be? Does this mean she could choose to become any of the millions of other Eights from the Cylon homeworld?
May 11th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
“Personally, I think the final Cylon has something to do with the RAZOR telefilm. Either Kendra Shaw or Helena Cain. Maybe even Ellen Tigh?”
I’ve heard this theory here and other places. I never really gave the theory much thought until the latest in the hybrid prophecy. One theory I have is that the “the one reborn” is Kendra Shaw reborn as Herra. The only problem with that is I can’t remember exactly which episode Hearra was born in durring season 2. I know Razor took place right after the episode when Lee gained command of Pegasus and before Lay Down your Burdens. So could someone with a better memory help me figure out if Hearra was born before, during, or after Razor?
“Herrera is the 13th I think looking back at all of the sessions between Baltar and head 6 about her being so important. So the home of the 5 is the Galactica.”
Very nice spin on that line of the prophecy. I knew there was some reason why I thought Nat,Leoben, and Kara where misinterpreting that line.
I didn’t even think about the original hybrid when considering the “children of the one reborn” line. You are absolutely right Adalla, the orginal hybrid did refer to “his chrildren” in razor. So the line could mean that the Centurions will find a separate home. There are so many different ways you can take that one line, I love it. I really need to go back and watch Razor again.
I know I’m obsessed with this prophecy, but damn, it’s so much fun trying to figure out what it all means.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I too would like to see some differetiation between the various Eight models. Hell, some differentiation in ALL of the other models wouldbe nice! Have Simon with an Afro, or Doal Rockin a Mohawk. Have D’Anna with red hair instead of blonde!
As for the comment about “Believing everyting RDM says”: Maybe what you don’t understand is that RDM and DE have taken another routeto us with this series. The Starbuck death thing in Season 3 was a perfect example of it. They KNOW there will be spoilers and they KNOW leaks will happen. They are playing psychological warfare with us all in an attempt to surprise the hell out of us when the 5th Cylon is revealed. So no, I am not that naive.
The Oracle COULD tell you some spoiler info I have BUT I am being nice (or mean, depending on how you look at it) and not saying a word.
May 11th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
At this point I’m completely clueless. Trying to make sense of chuncks of info: (long post ahead)
It begins on Kobol where people live together with The 12 Lords of Kobol (Aphrodite, Apollo,Ares, Artemis,Asclepius,Athena,Aurora,Hera, Poseidon, Zeus, Isis and Mithras) The Gods began a war with each other, because one of them wanted to be the worshiped above all others. He even had a temple build which had a maitenance crue of five priests on the Algae planet (The Temple of Five). The Humans fled onboard the Galleon. They founded 13 colonies (Aerelon, Tauron, Gemenon, Canceron, Leonis, Virgon, Libris, Scorpia, Sagitttaron, Caprica, Aquaria and Picon) of which one went in search for Earth. Daniel Graystone creates the first cylon with DNA from his dead daugther Zoe. She had a religious fanatical boyfriend before she died. Years later the first cylon war takes place. Cylons are secretly experimenting on humans. The hybrids are attached to basestar systems and they are clear voyant knowing the outcome of future events. The cylons leave the 12 colonies and are not heard from for 40 years. The cylons attack the twelve colonies and pursue survivors. They hunt down humans on Caprica to place in farms where they continue experimenting on humans. They also try to rebuild Caprica as their new home. Battlestar Pegasus also escapes the slaugther and is in pursue of cylons.
The dying leader (Roslin) begins having visions and soon the fleet stumbles on Kobol, the planet from the sacred scrolls. Baltar has visions about the Opera House and Hera. Leoben tells Kara she has a destiny. The location of Earth is revealed and a cours is set. Athena gives birth to a hybrid who is named a miracle by the other cylon models. Cavil tells Roslin that the cylons gave up their occupation of Caprica. Head Six says she is there to protect Baltar. Kendra finds a hybrid in a Basestar who tells her the first prophecy:
At last they’ve come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough= The humans stumble on New Caprica, they do not want to continue their journey to Earth and are enslaved by cylons. They escape. *Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves= Anders, Tigh, Tyrol and Tory are cylons. *The pain of revelation bringing new clarity= This is what Caprica Six tells Tigh, and Tory gets hooked on Baltar. *And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one= Leoben finds Kara. The team up to visite the hybrid. *The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable= the way to Earth. *And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering= ???*I can see them all. The 7 now 6 self-described machines, who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. =cylon war *They will know enmity= Cavil,Simon and Doral-Leoben, eight and Natalie, bitternes= The Six that kills Jean on the basestar, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many= Boomer voting against her model, the Centurions ability to reason thanks to Natalie, Cavil trapping and killing Six’s ships *and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning= humans and cylons form an alliance to find Eart, led by either, Kara or Caprica Six.
The colonists find New Caprica and are enslaved. They manage to escape. Baltar gets kidnapped and tortured. The cylons stumble on to an infected basestar. Athena is immune to the virus. The dormant virus hasn’t been seen in the colonies for 3,000 years. That’s when the 13the colony left Kobol. The hybrid on the basestar says to Baltar: find a hand that lies in the shadow of the light in the eye of the husband of the eye of the cow. The eye of Jupiter is a star that goes nova. The Temple of Five was created 4,000 years ago by the Five Priests. About the same time the Temple was build, a star 13,000 light years away went nova.
Roslin and Athena have visions of chasing Hera in the Opera house where Caprica Six is. Caprica Six desperatly wants to protect Hera.
All along the watchower: a conversation between a joker and a thief about getting hy in life. The joker does not want to loose it’s properties and the thief thinks some individuals aren’t taking life as serious as they should be. The ruling princes stands guard in a watchtower over women and servants when an a pair of riders arrive when wind begins to howl. = Caprica Six has a vision of her, Baltar and Hera in the Opera House, looking up, they see Five Cylons looking down from a balcony.
None shall the maiden rejoice at the dance= some women aren’t going to be happy when infact they should be. When I think of maidens (unmarried woman) only Baltar comes to mind:-)*The children of the one reborn shall find their own country= one reborn being Athena who had a child? *intruders swaped like flame, like the whirlwind= 1. To drench in or cover with or as if with water.
2. To inundate or burden; overwhelm*Hopes soaring to slaugther all their best against our house= hope fades to finding Eart, all their best (Kara and co. against cavil and co)*No ceremonies are necessary=?*The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant. The city devours the land..the people devour the city= Kara gets manipulated again by Leoben.*Ask will it come to pass. The dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House= Roslin finally understands why Caprica Six, Athena and Hera project the Opera House in their dreams. *The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the 13th= d’ anna gets unboxed and gives the identity of the Final Five. (I wonder how Anders feels about that one)
-What is the name of the 13th colony?
-Why was the Arrow of Apollo taken along from Kobol to Caprica?
-When the Arrow points the way to Earth, the 12 constellations appear. This would mean that the people who build the temple have been to Earth and back, right?
-The Temple of Five was created for one of the Lords of Kobol, the Five priests are the Final Five Cylons. So this means the 12 Lords of Kobol were splintered when 4 of them began the worship a 5th. They build him or her a temple and went to Earth? See, this is where I’m confused. Who build the Temple, the colonists off the 13th tribe or the Five Priests? And can we assume the Five joined the colonists to Earth?
-Against what or who does Caprica Six want to protect hera?
-The Opera House is the Watchtower?
-Kara unites the cylons and the humans, will the cylons betray the alliance in the end and kill the humans? Is it salvations that waits, or the apocalyps?
May 11th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
So do I, but I think to a large extent BSG is Ron Moore totally fraking with the utopian nature, and very linear, simplistic story-telling and characterisation of Trek. Don’t get me wrong, like Ron I have a lot of love for Trek, but DS9 is my favourite show in that franchise precisely because it creatively positied a corner of the Trek-i-verse where paradise had a few jagged edges and scuff marks. If Roddenberry had still been alive, for example, I think the Dominion War, a genocidal plague being used against The Founders, or eps like In The Pale Moonlight — where Sisko was complicit in murder to bring the Romulans in on the Federation’s side — would never have got past the pitch.
From a writer’s perspective, what the frak do you with an implacable, unstoppable juggernaut (or an all-powerful being with unlimited powers like Q?) that you have to stop in the fourth act — perferably with copious amounts of technobabble — and then hit the reset button? That gets really tired, real fast until you end up with Voyager’s ferociously lame Baby Borg and Q2.
May 11th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
“she has the same exact body, and the same exact memories…then what exactly makes her any different than Boomber? She can “choose” which version of an Eight she wants to be? Does this mean she could choose to become any of the millions of other Eights from the Cylon homeworld?”
We humans can choose to be whatever we want.. Think about professional impersonators or actors, they can become whatever they want to become given the correct amount of information. How would the Cylons be any different, especially when they all look, sound and move exactly alike.
Everyone of the the Cylons I think *is* different because of the experiences they go through and the choices they make, but there may be a slight slant toward a specific trend of thought. Leo’s religion, Caval’s convictions, Simon’s science, Caprica’s Love etc.
When a 1st Gen (i.e. 1st life, no resurrection) model is ‘born’ a basic set of attitudes, opinions, information, gestures etc is imprinted upon it. So maybe till atleast the first death-resurrection they are all alike. But as they make more choices, experience new ideas, meet new people they move further and further away from that baseline.
If we assume Boomer was a 1st Gen, who was programmed to be Human, that experience alone even after her Cylon origin is revealed changes her perception in a very fundamental way. At first hating her origin, trying to be human. But as time progresses she (unfairly and force-ably I feel) comes to reluctantly accept herself
Athena on the other hand knew who she was with the mission to pretend to be human for a specific purpose, to try and have children.
Her original Cylon thinking is slowly being changed by the contact with the fleet (esp. Helo) to a point where she is trying not the be what she is.
When the other 8 lay dying asking for forgiveness, Athena’s reluctance I think came from the sad, depressed sicking feeling that she not unique (even though we know she is) that any one of the millions of other 8’s can (either by choice, or forced programming) be her, and no-one might ever notice. (although I feel they would) The only way to protect herself? Stay away from that world.
The most unique feature. The Cylon soul. Whether Caval wants to accept it or not, each Cylon has a very unique presence in the universe, a MAC address if you will. If not, then how does Hera recognise Athena from the millions of other 8’s?
This is why I feel the ‘Download’ data is more factual than soulful: like a blog. You can read the information, perhaps even understand it but you wil never know the original thought that gave birth to that information.
E.g. My favorite ice cream is mint-choc-chip.
You now know this piece of me, perhaps you could even pretend to like it too. But do you know why I like it?
heh.. I’ve just realised I’ve been watching BSGCast since the beginning and have always been a lurker not a talker. Now that I’ve spoken a few lines.. well, make that many lines =) I can’t seem to shut-up..
Bring on next week..
May 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
I want to be very careful about SPOILER/SPECULATION here — but I wonder if Athena’s ambivalence towards ‘The Rebels’ and any alliance with them a damn sight more primeval than that.
If the preview/trailer for next week is any indication, Hera has some kind of maternal bond with Six/Natalie(?). If I was already convinced that ‘The Rebels’ had some kind of hidden agenda — and the shared dream/projection involving Roslin, Caprica-Six, Hera and her in Crossroads, part 2 — I’d be feeling even more twitchy and paranoid than is the norm on BSG. IMO, the one thing that is all too ‘human’ about Athena is that she will do anything to protect her child. Both the Colonials (Roslin) and the Cylons have used Athena as a living pawn in their various agendas, and it seems to me that there’s always going to be part of Athena that can’t, won’t (and maybe never should) just get over it and move on. What kind of mind-frak would it be to watch her child draw Sixes over and over, then run up to Natalie (?) with total trust?
May 11th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
All these crazy theories will never be borne out. The makers of the show are never going to be able to or want to explain all the events of this show with some sort of insanely convoluted theories. Whatever the resolution is, it will be simple but probably unresolved. The fact of this show is that it is constantly throwing red herring after red herring out there to confound and confuse in place of telling an actual coherent story.
Starbuck is not a cylon. They just want you to think so. Just as they wanted you to think that Baltar was, or Ellen Tigh, or Adama, or Roslin, or whomever they’ve laid that trip on. This show is not about explaining things or making sense. Its main tools are confusion, misdirection, and half-truths that things can be read into. Very little will be resolved in these concluding episodes because they’d rather we all spent time spinning crazy theories and thinking how cool the show is without having the duty of having the show be coherent until they dish out the big reveal. It’s a common tactic in these long story arc shows. One need only look at Lost to know of what I speak or even Babylon 5, where so much has been hinted at or suffused with some special meaning only to never be adequately resolved, fully explained, or fleshed out.
While we’d all like a satisfying explanation with a pretty bow wrapped around it, it will not happen. Mark my words.
May 11th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Hi All,
will write more details later; but a few comments:
fantastic episode! I really like a lot of things:
Kara seeing her vision when they went to see the cylon casualties so to speak.
The one 6 being dead, really dead.
I love Natalie, she rocks.
As for Anders: I love how he’s testing himself out as a cylon, shyly and slyly. I think his compassion for the 8 came mostly from his yearning to understand what he has become–I think Anders is slowly becoming the one who is accepting what he is, but not losing who he is–mmm
Roslin: I like how she’s finally come to a point, as we saw her on the boat, where she is not going to die yet and tells Bill that very thing. I love those 2, how sad he looked w/those tears about the loss of Lee to politics, and Helo, Sharon and Starbuck, “those Kids” who I think he now sees all as his own, if he’ll ever see them again. She puts her arm around him, and says she will be there and they will see earth together. I love how they lvoe together.
Also, I don’t get how the cylons have the hybrids aboard? What are they? where are they from and why do they tell prophesies?
It will also be interesting to see what Starbuck will do now that the Hybrid has said to her what her worst fear has always been, killing everyone she loves–she did it to Zak, almost to Lee, and now the whole human race. I hope this will give her clarity, but I thought she would go mad.
anyway, that’s it till later-
A
May 11th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Who do you mean “we”, kemosabe?
Speaking for myself, what I love most about BSG is that it doesn’t treat it’s audience like children who need every plot point, character beat and theme spelled out in flashing neon. My accuracy rate for speculation is lower than GWB’s approval ratings, but it’s nice to have a show that’s got enough substance to speculate over; and I mean no disrespect to anyone involved with the show, but it doesn’t say much for the state of our culture when some of the most nuanced and sophisticated discussion of complex social and political questions are in a reboot of a campy 70’s space opera.
May 11th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
The first thing I thought at the beginning of the preview for next weeks episode, when Athena opens the book with Hera’s drawings, is the mark of the Beast “666″.
May 11th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
In this episode I think Anders has shown the most amount of growth. On the Demetrius he shoots Geata. Did he do this because he is so madly in love with Kara that he’d do anything for her, or does he have an obsession with Earth as well, and to find the answers about who he really is?
Gaeta being shot snaps Kara out of her crazy. She realizes that she’s putting too many lives in danger and opts to take a raptor herself (with leoben). Kara asks Athena to go with her. Finally! They are using Athena as a cylon not just another pilot. In this episode she shows profound loyalty to the humans and an intense hatred or disgust towards the cylons. Where did this hatred come from? The moment she arrives on the basestar the other 8’s find her. They are wanting to split from the 6’s. And Athena is digusted.
This is also continuing with the hybrid prophecy. They were 7 all working as one, then Athena went her own way. The 3’s were boxed. Then Boomer sided with Cavel. Then the 1’s, 4’s and 5’s split from the 2’s, 6’s and 8’s. “They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many.”
On the raptor Leoben mentions that everything has a sound. Connecting Kara’s statement in the previous episode of “Where’s that fraking sound?” Then as they arrive at the basestars Leoben says to Anders “Can you feel it? Gods plan is about to be revealed.” Why would he be saying that to Anders? Does he know? Kara realizes the trinary star system and comet are the flaming basestars. Then Leoben says in response to Kara, but looking at Anders while he spoke “The unstruck music vibrates in all of us, you can hear it, kara is one of the few.” How does he know Anders can hear the music? He’s gotta know something is up. Yet later on in the episode he’s trying to figure out the hybrid riddle along with everyone else as if he doesn’t know who the 5 are. A strange thing I noticed was that when Kara was knocked out Anders let Leoben help him care for Kara.
I loved the moment that Anders almost put his hand into the data stream. In this episode he shows sooo much compassion for both humans and cylons. It was heartbreaking to see how devastated he was at the death of Beverly, then the deep compassion towards the 8 that died in the hybrid room. “Don’t worry, I’m with you.” Sounds almost like the way the woman in the hospital described the voice that helped carry her across the river. The way 8 looked passed them as she was dieing, and that he’s never seen that in a cylon before. Implying that when cylons really die, they experience the same things humans do when they die. Also implying that they possibly reincarnate just like humans. I think that Anders is beginning to embrace his destiny and who he really is.
My heart totally broke at the way the 6 was describing her murder by Beverly. It shows that even the cylons are suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and phycological trauma from the war. Although she did say that they were trying to help them. I don’t know if she was talking about New Caprica or in the current situation. If it was New Caprica it shows they really don’t understand humans very well or the difference between right and wrong. She seemed to know somehow that Natalie was going to kill her.
THE HYBRID UTTERANCES
All these things it wants and many more not because it wished harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
Structural integrity of node 7 restored. (I wonder if the structural integrity of node 7 restored is a prophecy of the 7 models reuniting. Increasing their unit cohesion or integrity)
Repressurising.
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country. (Who is the one reborn? Is it Baltar as Jesus reborn? Or is it the old hybrid reborn as Hera? Meaning that since Hera is a hybrid of both Human and cylon that they are all the children of the old hybrid.)
Intruders swarm like flame.
Like the whirlwind.
Hope soaring to slaughter at their best against our hulls. (Humans fighting against cylons. Sending their best out to fight them, and they often die in battle against the hulls of the cylon basetars)
Replace internal control accumulators 4 through 19.
They’ll star going ripe on us pretty soon.
Compartmentalize integrity conflicts with the obligation to provide access.
FTL sync fault uncorrected. (The 7 are still out of sync with eachother. Thus leaving the hybrid out of sycronized connection to all of them since they are not in sync with eachother)
No ceremonies are necessary. (She is prophecying her own death. When she dies they all just leave the room. No one mourns her even though they revere her so much)
Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance. (I’m wondering if it is Baltars heram. Who someone knew Baltar’s spirit before he even realized it.)
Structural integrity of node 7 restored.
Repressurising.
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.
End of line.
Reset.
Track mode monitor of malfunction traced, (She knows the one who will try to kill her is the
recharging pressures…..
Increase the output to 50%….. (Perhaps she is increasing her consiousness more than before)
Assume the relaxation length of photons…
Not because it wishes harm…..
Cancerous contact is inevitable. Leading to information bleed. (When 8 was shot she bled into the tub)
FTL sync fault stands uncorrected. (the 7 are still out of sync.)
No ceremonies are necessary.
Centrifical force reacts to the rotation frame of reference. (God in the repeating story of the universe. Or the 12 around 1 theory.)
The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant. (This could be in reference to Starbuck no longer being the smart ass little brat always getting in fights. Or it could be Anders accepting who he really is and embracing it.)
The city devours the land.
The people devour the city.
The same relaxation length of photons in the sample atmosphere is constant.
Intruders swarm like flames.
Like the whirlwind.
Hope soar the best to slaughter all their best against our hulls.
All these things it wants and many more.
Not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
Reset
Track mode monitor malfunction traced. (She says this as 8 enters the room)
But you are the spark of gods fire (Speaking about the spark in each of us that Baltar was talking about. God in each of us, all of us together as one are god.)
Corruptic complete
Threat detection matrix enabled. (She says this just as Starbuck says to “Unplugg the frakkin thing.)
Dendritic response by passed. (She decided not to react as normal to the threat of death.)
The received dose is altered by the delayed gamma burst. (Gamma bursts are the closest thing to the big bang, currently still happening.)
Going active. (She says this just as the Centurian begins to move. Suggesting she is either prophecying the events as they are happening or she can control the centurians.)
Execute. (She says this just before the centurian shoots the 8.)
The child of the one reborn shall find their own country
End of Line
AHHHHHHHHHHH (This sound is much more different from the sound she made just before she died in Torn. Where she sounded more like a whale under water. Could the hybrids be reincarnations of whales or dolphins? Many ancient and modern cultures believe that the dolphin is the oldest beings on earth and on the highest level of consiousness. Then the 8 bleeds into the tub as referenced before)
Thus will is come to pass
The dying leader will come to know the truth of the opera house. (Laura will figure out the story)
The missing 3 will give you the 5. (D’anna will tell them who the final 5 are, or the missing 3 cylons either Tigh, tory or tyrell. Or Cavel, Doral, or the doctor will show them the final 5.)
Who have come from the home of the 13th. (The five priests of the temple were revered by the journey of the 12 colonies on their journey to earth. This could mean that the final 5 are the reincarnations of the five priests of the temple who are from earth. And could very well be from Atlantis.)
You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace. (Death could also mean a beginning to your next life. You need to die before you can be reborn, as it was with Kara. Also when D’anna was boxed she said. “One must die to know the truth.”)
You will lead them all to their end. (It could mean the end of the story and the beginning of a the story or a new story on a higher octave)
End of line.
In the end, Laura begins to open her mind to what Baltar is saying. Getting passed her hatred of him. She gets some peace in knowing that there is something beyond death, that everyone she loves is ok and so will she. This faith was solidified by the confirmation of her dream when she woke up to find her friend had indeed passed over. As she woke up Baltars voice was on the radio saying. “You will no longer need to fear the unknown. He will take your hand and guide you to the other side of the river.” He then begins to talk about realities and realms foreshadowing next weeks episode.
Oh and last note, Bill and Laura are so in love!!! I love it.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Lepton,
I feel for you my friend…don’t you get it? While I can’t speak for everyone I can say that I watch BSG because it isn’t always coherent or explained away. I love this show for the nuances of our own beginnings & endings, growth and culture that are reflected in every episode. While I totally respect your right to feel like you do (and I truthfully mean no disrespect to you with my comments), I’m hoping that if you spend more time here amongst the BSG faithful that you can let yourself have some fun with it. This show makes us think. It makes us look at ourselves, our cultures and our daily worldly issues. I for one love this show…”big payoff” or not I will always remember this show as the best ever. I will also remember this site as the best ever. If anyone else feels the same way you may join me in a “So say we all…”
May 11th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
hey everyone… i’ve been reading through the posts here and i just wanna say that i’m pretty sure the hybrid isn’t dead like some people have said. all they did was take her offline. and there’s a clip of her in the preview for next week
she’s probably one of my favorite things in the show… ever since last season’s “torn” when we met her for the first time… i’d be really sad if they killed her off haha.
anyway… this was by far the best episode so far this season i think. it’s incredible how blurred the lines between human and cylon are now. natalie is just getting cooler and cooler and athena is just making me angry. i can understand her feelings toward her sisters–but i don’t think those feelings are really justified. i hope she comes around and forgives them to some point.
i’m also intrigued by the centaurian’s reaction to taking the hybrid offline. i wonder if we’ll see a basestar minus the skinjobs go missing–maybe off into something to do with the next cycle.
i so wish sam had interfaced with the basestar! i wonder what the hybrid would have done if he had. guess we’ll just have to hope d’anna comes back soon…
i’m wondering too about the hybrid’s line “the children of the one reborn shall find their own country.” if you look at brother caval as being the one reborn and the other 1s, 4s, and 5s as his children; could they at some point decide to stop pursuing the other models and humans and find their own planet to exist on?
i loooove this show… just saying so.
May 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Did anyone else notice that when Anders had a gun to 6’s head that as Natalie was speaking to her Starbuck went for her gun slowly. Was she going to shoot the 6 or Anders? Man, I love starbuck and all but she’s not a very good girlfriend or wife. He can do better in that respect.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Ok, at the risk of being labeled as “that guy,” I found another BSG-inspired cartoon site that looks pretty sweet. This one is called “Frakking Toasters” by Jeanette Atwood, and has been around since 2005.
http://frakkingtoasters.com//index.cgi?date=20080421
Share the love with your fellow frakkers ;o)
May 11th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Hi, everyone–
I’m new to this board, but it’s been fun to read all the thoughts and opinions of a show that I only recently became completely hooked on, so thanks for that.
Something that’s been bothering me as I read the theories here is the often unquestioning acceptance of the role of God or Gods in the story as real beings or characters. I personally would be disappointed if deities ever became real characters or influences in the show, a la the Final Five being some of the Lords of Kobol, etc.
I admit the way Kara came back might change some of how I feel about this depending on what she turns out to be, but one thing I treasure about the show is its realistic and intelligent approach to religion. Different characters have different ideologies for different reasons. Baltar’s preaching is as much about him gaining a new practical foothold and power in the fleet as much as it is about what he truly believes, and Roslin’s visions of Kobol and Earth were, I believe, more because that’s what she wanted to see than because of true divine intervention. And the Cylon’s projecting ability is an extension of this idea.
Horoscopes work (I think) because they use generalities about human behavior in a clever way to allow people to draw real inspiration from them. But the key is that this inspiration comes from their own minds and desires. Metaphors and stories are an important way that people cope with the absurdity and confusion of existence, and in that same vein the characters on BSG reach out for different ideologies at different times to help them deal with the horrifying nature of the events around them. In this episode, Roslin herself talks about that, that the Lords of Kobol are a “metaphor”. And that’s from the Dying Leader.
Ron Moore has said that he enjoys showing that there are seldom “correct” answers to the questions facing these characters, that there isn’t one motto or prophecy or code that can dictate a course of action every time. This is why I believe that the conclusion to the series will not be some divine intervention or judgement day scenario where the right gets separated from the wrong. Tory thinks she’s perfect now as a Cylon, and has a grateful smile on her face when Baltar declares everyone perfect as they are. But remember, Tory is showing dangerous signs of letting power corrupt her morality; should we believe that the One True God looks on everyone as perfect, even when they kill a mother in cold blood with her child in their hands? That this is the inevitable ascension of the humans and Cylons to Truth?
If the fleet turns to monotheism, it will be not as part and parcel of their enlightenment, but as another element of social change and choice. There are always miracles happening to be turned to one religion or the other, and Baltar’s self-preservation instinct (embodied in Head Six, and, weirdly now, in Head Baltar) recognizes opportunity for power, even as his humanity continues to search for enlightenment.
I think it’s important to remember that no one in BSG is free from a viewpoint and bias, not even the Hybrids. Can we really take the prophecies as gospel? Do the Hybrids stand with the Cylons or with the humans or with themselves? Their knowledge comes from knowing patterns and analyzing information en masse, and they choose the time and place to dispense it. I think that to have them really represent the absolute Truth of the story, or to have an overarching morality in place that everyone has to conform to in order to find Earth and put all the pieces back together would betray the spirit of the show. That’s just too Hollywood in my book.
Oh, and here’s my vote: Gaeta’s the Fifth, and it’s way in the future on Earth, humans having left to colonize the 12 worlds way back when. The planet is ravaged from environmental damage and far from the utopia the humans believe it to be, and the Cylons and humans have to find a way to forge a truce or work together in the face of no easy answers or solutions in an imperfect world.
Phew. Didn’t think it would be that long…
May 11th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Creighton, I think you are going to be VERY disappointed. I say this because I believe RDM and crew are going to give us answers that we well within the realm of the fantasy of religion. I think they are going to do this for the same reason the South Park creators like to attack the political left. Not because they have some ultra right-wing agenda but because no one else is doing it. No one else is brave enough to write a show that forces popular media to look at a counterpoint.
When I was taking classes in politics and law, in college, my professors loved my ability to take the exact opposite argument of what I personally believed, and argue for it or write about it with the same amount of passion as the counterpoint. I have always entertained the idea that I may not be right. It is possible that my most passionate opinions are wrong. I don’t usually let anyone else know that but it is how I feel. A true artist can take on their counterpoint and present it as something righteous and beautiful… and I think that is what RDM has done. He is giving us his most passionate argument in favor of his counterpoint. That is why the BSG creative force deserves every award possible. Because they are true artists who are not bound by their beliefs… and isn’t that the point of the show? That we are not certainly right about anything?
I am one of the most anti-religion types you will find, but I love the fantasy of religion within the show. Hell, I used it to great extent in my latest BSG video (advertisement! check the link in my name!).
May 11th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Agghh! I hate not being able to edit my responses. That second line should read “give us answers that ARE well within” and not “we”. I edited a line and forgot to.. oh frak. I need an edit button.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:57 am
Wow!
Now That was a Great Episode!
We got our 6 & 8’s!!! YES!
This is really becoming a superman thing to me.
Why doesnt lois see that clark is superman!?!, I’m feeling that way about Sam being around them, and did anyone else notice that little thing Leoben said what seemed like like to anders, Something like *wispers* “If she can hear it too, she’s like us!” Or something like that.
I really havnt been in to a show this much since Quantum Leap, DAMN YOU RDM!!
LEt Sam Say he’s a Cylon, also YAY!, 3 may return!!, well I assumed She would but still, YAY!
well I am gonna go since I am Rambling and have nothing to add.
Also we now know why Roslin is on a baseship in the previews(Angel Agitator Preview)! Or at least we can no guess why/how.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:31 am
I am pretty sure Leoben said something like ““The unstruck music vibrates in all of us. IF you can hear it. Kara is one of the few.” The way he emphasizes the “If” and “hear” is what seems to be confusing people. I don’t think they can hear the “If” that well.
I think Sam is going to hold onto the fact that he is a cylon for some time. It will take the unboxing of the 3s before anyone is outed.
May 12th, 2008 at 5:22 am
the outting of the final five will have to be based on the assumption that Adama and the rest of the fleet will form an alliance with the rebel cylons, otherwise, someone’s getting airlocked. It wouldn’t be in the best interest of D’anna to reveal who the final 5 are just yet – remember there’s still more than half a season left to go
May 12th, 2008 at 5:52 am
Matt, you mentioned that you did not know the exact model number of each Cylon in your last bsgcast. Below is what I found in Wikipedia. The final Cylon seems to be Number Seven. Any guesses why the Seven is not numerically consecutive with the final four?
Could the final Cylon be the President? Her ship’s waterline markings do contain the numbers of the final four 9, 10, 11 & 12? This might be a clue that she guides the other four
The “Final Five” (Numbers Seven, Nine, Ten, Eleven, Twelve) Humanoid Cylons
Number One (aka Brother Cavil)
Number Two (aka Leoben Conoy)
Number Three (aka D’Anna Biers)
Number Four (aka Simon)
Number Five (aka Aaron Doral
Number Six (aka Caprica-Six/Head Six/Shelley Godfrey/Gina Inviere/Natalie)
Number Eight (aka Lt. Sharon “Boomer” Valerii/Lt. Sharon “Athena” Agathon)
May 12th, 2008 at 6:38 am
OK, I DIDN’T GET A CHANCE TO READ ALL THE POSTS, SO I HOPE I’M REPEATING ANYTHING ALREADY POSTED, BUT THE ONE IN PARTICULAR THAT REALLY MAKES SENSE BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR IS THE ONE BY “GEORGE” ABOUT EARTH BEING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF DEATH, NOT THAT THATS HOW I IMAGINE THINGS GOING, OR EVEN WANTED TO, BUT IT DOES MAKE SENSE.
HERE IS WHAT THE HYBRID SAID, SOME OF THESE THINGS SHE REPEATED SEVERAL TIMES, YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN CLOSE.
“The children of the one reborn shall find their own country” REPEATED 3 TIMES
“Intruders swarmed like flames, like the whirlwind. Hope soaring to slaughter all our best against our hulls.” REPEATED 2 TIMES
“All these things it wants, and many more, not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly”
“But you are a spark of God’s fire”
“Thus it will come to pass, the dying leader will know the truth about the opera house. The missing 3 will give youe the 5 who come from the home of the 13th. You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end.”
THEN LEOBEN SAYS (almost looks like he was looking at anders when he says it)
“She will lead us to the end, we will now know the truth of the opera house”
so beacuse of the hybrid we now know that “the dying leader will know the truth about the opera house” and since we know Rosyln was the only supposed human who saw the opera house in a vision, we know she is in fact the dying leader, and not the final cylon, (sorry everybody who has been posting the she may be the final cylon)
WE ALSO NOW KNOW THAT THERE ARE OTHER CYLONS, OTHER THAN ATHENA, AND CAPRICA 6 THAT SAW THE VISION OF THE OPERA HOUSE.
AND WHEN THE HYBRID SAYS “All these things it wants, and many more, not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly” COULD THE “IT” THAT SHE SPEAKS OF BE THE “ONE TRUE GOD”
ANYWAY JUST A FEW THOUGHTS I HAD, ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY GUESSES ABOUT WHAT THE HYBRID’S WORDS MEAN, WOULD LOVE TO HEAR IT.
AND AGAIN, JUST WANT TO SAY I LOVED “GEORGE’S” THEORY ABOUT THE 13TH COLONY BEING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF DEATH, AND THE FINAL 5 HELPING PEOPLE TO CROSS THE “RIVER” TO GET THERE, IT DOES MAKE SENSE WITH THE ONE TRUE GOD THEORY.
ALSO AS FAR AS THE LORDS OF KOBOL BEING THE ONES WHO FAVOR EARTH, THE 5 PRIESTS WHO BULIT THE TEMPLE ON THE ALGAE PLANET WORSHIPED THE ONE GOD, NOT THE GODS, AND THAT WAS ON THE WAY TO/A STOP SIGN TO EARTH. SO THAT TELLS US THAT THE WORSHIPERS OF THE ONE TRUE GOD BEGAN TO MAKE THEIR WAY TO EARTH, AND THE FOLLOWERS OF THE OTHER GODS MADE THEIR WAY TO THE 12 COLONIES. SINCE WE KNOW FROM THE SCROLLS OF ELOSHA THAT
“Elosha states that the exodus from Kobol was precipitated when “one jealous god began to desire that he be elevated above all the other gods, and the war on Kobol began.”
THE EXODUS FROM KOBOL CAME AS A RESULT OF THE WAR BETWEEN THE ONE GOD, AND THE REST. SO THE ONE GOD, AND HIS FOLLOWERS WENT TO FIND EARTH, AND THE OTHER GODS, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS WENT TO FIND THE 12 COLONIES. WHICH MEANS THAT IF THE FINAL 5 ARE FROM EARTH, WHICH IS WHERE THE ONE GOD EITHER IS AT, OR IS AT THE VERY LEAST WORSHIPED, THEN THE FINAL 5 WOULD BE THE ONES WHO BROUGHT THE IDEA OF THE “ONE TRUE GOD” TO THE OTHER CYLONS, OR CREATED THE OTHER CYLONS, HENCE THEY WOULD BE BORN BELIEVING IN THE ONE TRUE GOD.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:23 am
I enjoyed this episode and all the death stuff as much as anyone, but WHY on Earth is everyone on this forum accepting the totally lame cliffhanger that was resolved at the start of this episode (the mutiny of Helo etc. against Kara)?
That was beyond lame and insulting to viewers in the extreme.
In short, it was beyond contrived and completely fake. Everyone on the Demitrius knew there was a raptor on board and so why wasn’t that discussed as an option before it came to Gaeta getting shot? (It should have of course.) Why was it only THEN after it came to violence that Kara (and the writers) let us know all of a sudden, GEE, THERE’S A RAPTOR ON BOARD and we can use that as a perfect way out of the situation?
COME ON! LAME LAME LAME – that mutiny cliffhanger was completely contrived and insulting to our collective intelligence.
The writers ended the last episode with this supposedly suspenseful cliffhanger (with Helo and Kara squaring off) and then we find out in this episode it was contrived and it should not in any way have been a cliffhanger at all. LAME LAME LAME When Kara first said I am taking the Demitrius to go to the cylons and search for Earth, everyone should have just said, uhhhh, why don’t you take the raptor?
Please writers don’t do anything so blatantly STUPID and INSULTING again. (Wow, I was really angry and still am!)
Other than that, great episode. Can’t wait to see Adama’s face (and Tory and Tighe and Tyrel) when the basestar jumps in.
I just don’t know what it’s going to mean that the fab four are found to be cylons. I doubt that they will be thrown in the brig. It will be hard for many characters to trust them, but others like Adama will be ok with it after the initial shock.
Tootie
May 12th, 2008 at 9:06 am
Hi, I have a few thoughts this week, that I wanted to share. Please excuse my English, it´s not my mother tongue.
) There are oracles in the fleet, but they need help in the form of camalla to see the future. They could be the hybrid´s offspring. BUT, the final five are supposed to be fundamentally different from the significant seven and apparently, the last one is somewhat different from the four (who are cylon, but also human, because they were born), so it could be the hybrid. It seems that the fluid she lies in is somehow tied to her visions – young Bill “Husker” Adama saw things on the old cylon basestar in Razor, that weren´t there but almost certainly happened. She is also connected to the machine (the ship). Those two things make her unique, none of the “human” oracles have that.
DarthRazorback – just a note. I don´t think Leoben said IF you can hear it. He said FEW can hear it – Kara is one of the few. Which would mean that there are others with this ability, possibly even Leoben (otherwise how would he know about it?).
I don´t know if anyone ever noticed this, but in the hybrids tank, there are twelve black snake-like cords. I don´t know why, but from the first moment the female hybrid has been introduced to us (can´t recall the exact part/season) I thought she was Pythia. Also, it is obvious that for there to be star patterns of what the 12 colonies would look like from Earth, someone had to first find the planet and then return to Kobol. Pythia had to be there, so she could predict that the arrow of Apolo would have to be brought back to Cobol in the future and show the dying leader the way to Earth (because she would know it was taken by the 12 tribes and what it´s purpose was). Which leads me to this – now the hybrid is disconnected from the basestar, it/she showed she is conscious and capable of coherent thoughts. Also, this was the first time she was addressing another person directly (YOU will lead them to their end, KARA THRACE), as an individual. If I am right (and that´s a BIG if, considering the ability of the writers to completely mislead the audience) and she (her timeless self, the opera house being) was there at the time of the exodus of the tribes, she could be one of the final five (a.k.a. the last one). She has always been in the shadow, important (to the operations of the baseship) yet completely ignored by the other seven models. Remember when they were deciding whether they would leave the infected baseship or help their fellow cylons, the hybrid disapproved and it was Diana, who decided it by saying something like “she doesn´t have a vote.” And then, in the temple of the five, it was Diana who, after looking into the face of the last of the FF said “forgive me, I had no idea.” IF the hybrid is the last one, does she know it? I think she does, notice how it´s the hybrid(s) who make predictions about the future. The old hybrids revelation to Kendra didn´t change anything, but this one´s definitely will. She was actually instructing them what to do, first she told Leoben to go find Kara (he was the only one who could decipher her “babbling”) and then told Kara, this time in a perfectly clear manner what to do to uncover the identity of the FF who would them lead them all to Earth and thereby complete the plan.
It is also interesting that there have been 13 tribes living on Kobol, so there must have been 13 Lords. One of them may have evolved (becoming one with the vibration of the universe and thus becoming one with God = God himself), five of the other twelve acknowledged that and went away with the thirteenth tribe. After finding Earth, the “plan” was set in motion, they returned to Kobol and must have pretended they´ve come to their senses and were on the side of the other seven again. Otherwise, why would the colonials worship 12 Lords of Kobol, and not just the seven. I might be going a bit too far (but I guess I´ve already done that) but I think the five might have had offspring with some of the humans, thereby adding their DNA to the human gene pool, which would activate in its completeness after they´ve reached the nebula (some kind of radiation to which their DNA has been programmed to respond, I don´t know, this is Sci-Fi
The only thing I still can´t figure out is Kara, who she is and how did she resurrect…
Sorry for the long post.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Wow that was great, the cylon storyline was awesome this episode, alot of insights once again into cylon society, especially how the eights are reacting to all of this “Hmm i know how to solve this rebellion, lets have a MUTINY” YAY!! But unfortunately it seems they decided against it, Athena is a kill joy!
Also i thought the whole thing where we get to hear that the ENTIRE leoben line is obsessed with Starbuck and that the other cylons found it wierd is just awesome and rather funny!
But on a serious note i thought that the normal Sixes views on being drowned were a great piece of TV, the description made me feel for her, it sounded aweful, and to hear that some cylons have to have counsellings after dying really puts a human face on them, as if losing the rezzy ship wasn’t bad enough! (2 cylons get killed in this, not good!
Are these the only 2,6,8’s left in the universe?
May 12th, 2008 at 9:34 am
bberri –
I never thought of the hybrids being important in terms of the final five, lords of Kobol, gods etc. COOL! WELL DONE!
I think you’re right that the hybrids are going to matter in a much larger way. They ARE like gods in that they can predict the future and know things they have no way of knowing by conventional means….Funny how I always thought of the hybrids as a cool part of the show (a piece of the puzzle) but nothing more, but I think you are definitely right about this.
Did Deanna see all five? or just four before she got sucked back? I will have to re-watch that and see if she looked at five, but I think it was four.
Unfortunately (for me and you and others) we may never know what Kara is. By the Gods (and by the fragile body of Gauis fraking Baltar, hahaha) I hope we do!!!
Tootie
May 12th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Adalla – I notice you also picked up on the raptor being there all along and how LAME that was! YUCK
Several of you feel sympathy for the Six who had to have therapy. I didn’t feel much for her. How many humans were murdered? And could they ressurect? Nope. If anything, dying in that water helped the Sixes realize that the attack on humans was a mistake. They learned it’s wrong to hurt others- it HURTS! Her being drowned was thus a good thing in the grand scheme.
I can understand their personal hatred for one another though – that Six and Barolay couldn’t let it go and accept they’re on the same side. What a scene that was.
Ok Creighton, you vote for Gaeta…well, what are the writers going to do with Gaeta as the final cylon? We can speculate based on past and present hints about if Gaeta is a “fit,” but what’s going to be the significance of Gaeta being the final cylon for the fleet and survival of humanity?
1) If the story is going to be that this person secretly finds out she/he is a cylon and that will be so painful and abhorrent that this person decides to take all cylons out, including himself or herself….does this work for Gaeta? Or Dee, or Lee or Zarak or Starbuck etc.? No, I don’t think so. It wouldn’t have any punch. This wouldn’t work for Adama; he knows how close humans and cylons are, and would come to accept his new identity pretty quickly I think. It wouldn’t destroy him.
However, this option would work for Roslin. Finding out she’s a cylon would literally tear her apart, and has great story potential. She of ALL characters (besides Tyrel) has no sympathy for cylons, no close relationships with them, and she sees them completely as the enemy. And she’s in a position as a leader to carry this storyline forward. I can just see her as she realizes she’s a cylon. Whoa. Maybe she’ll think it’s a side effect of her drugs and then realize, no it’s not, I really am a cylon.
2) Let’s look at a vastly different final cylon storyline…the final cylon unites everyone. (As I said, this would be kinda lame, since humans and cylons already seem to be uniting…But still, let’s try it.) Can Gaeta unite humans and cylons? NO. Not enough connection with both. Same with Dee or Lee or Zarek or Roslin. However, Baltar or the Admiral would fit here. The Admiral fits better. He has enough connections with both sides (with Sharon and Tighe etc. on the cylon side) to pull this off. Happy ending, but not much dramatic potential in terms of suspense and conflict.
3) MAJIC says the story will be that the final cylon will be the cylon god and “want to be worshipped.” Doesn’t seem to have much dramatic potential in terms of suspense and/or conflict, but let’s go with it. That would fit for Baltar, so let’s say Baltar is the final cylon and “one true god.” The problem is, it doesn’t change anything. Right now he is worshipped by some and not others, and if he were to be outed as the final cylon and “one true god,” the same will be true – some will worship him and some will not accept him as any kind of spiritual leader or god, and the conflicts that already exist over this will continue. Nothing would change. Where can it go?
4) I have thought of another final cylon storyline. This character finds out that he/she is a cylon, but it stays a secret. That is, this cylon sees that having another certain person be believed to be the final cylon instead (a person who can unite everyone and end the war), would be better and somehow makes it happen. (e.g., this person convinces Admiral Adama, for example, to take on the uniting role.)
Then you would see this person unwillingly or willingly “sacrifice” himself/herself while getting the fleet to Earth, dying somehow in a cylon-human fire-fight or through torture until death….and no one will know what they have done in killing this person, that they have killed the final cylon. THIS WOULD WORK for Gaeta, Dee, Lee, Zarek, etc.
5) ?
6) ?
Personally, I would like to see 1). Mary McDonnell would do a hell of a lot with Roslin being torn apart and pulling off genocide/suicide with or without Adama’s help – letting the cylons believe she trusts them while planning to annihilate them…
Please add or comment,
Tootie
May 12th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Ok, I’ll throw my hat into the ring on the Hybrid Prophecies:
All these things it wants and many more… not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly. Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance. [This may be a statement about the hybrids in general. They were programmed as CICs for battleships, and they live for these encounters (the basestars are battleships, so the hybrids are warriors in a way). She didn’t want to fight and destroy her sisters, but the battle was called, and the battle-lust took them.]
Structural integrity of node 7 restored. Repressurising…[spouting code related to ship repairs]
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country. [I’ll let other people debate the nuances of meaning on this one.]
Intruders swarm like flame, like the whirlwind, hope soaring, to slaughter all their best against our hulls. [this refers at least in part to when the basestar joins the fleet and colonial marines board and secure the ship (next week)]
Replace internal control accumulators 4 through 19. They’ll start going ripe on us pretty soon. [more ship repair gibberish, letting them know those components are damaged and won’t last long]
Compartmentalize integrity conflicts with the obligation to provide access. [if you open that door, expect to be Callied, dipsh!t]
FTL sync fault uncorrected. No ceremonies are necessary. [The FTL is destroyed or damaged beyond repair. “Ceremonies” may be the hybrid’s special way of saying “repairs.” In this context, the hybrid is saying that the FTL is kaput, and it has no way of fixing it.]
…Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
Structural integrity of node 7 restored.
Repressurising.
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country. [a repeat of earlier gibberish]
End of line. [is she just punctuating her gibberish, or is she talking about someone’s death (like in D’anna’s dream right before she was boxed)… maybe it’s the end of those who cross over the river to the other side, or maybe everyone else’s end, or maybe her own, or whatever]
Reset. [more punctuation, or a reference to the next cycle?]
Track mode monitor of malfunction traced. Recharge compressors. Increase the output to 50%. All these things… [more repair-mode gibberish, then she starts to repeat the lines about violent vibrations and maidens dancing as the camera fades to a different angle and a different line of hybrid uttering]
Assume the relaxation length of photons…[fade]
Not because it wishes harm…[fade]
Cancerous contact is inevitable, leading to information bleed. [maybe the colonials coming aboard and dissecting the cylons/basestar’s secrets (and maybe killing a few cylons DEAD-dead in the process, thus leading to loss of unique “data”); or maybe when they attempt to disconnect her and 8 is shot and bleeds to death into the tub; or maybe just more repair-mode gibberish]
FTL sync fault stands uncorrected.
No ceremonies are necessary.
Centrifugal force reacts to the rotating frame of reference. [more repair-code, or ship’s status as it drifts and spins… or maybe a commentary on how motivations change as the cycle progresses]
The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant. [maybe Starbuck accepting her destiny, or maybe Adama becoming more accepting of some of the cylons as an addition to the fleet]
The city devours the land… the people devour the city… (?)something something something(?) [Leoben’s words to Kara garble what the hybrid was saying, but it was a continuation of the land/city/people lines. These lines may be some allusion to the corruption of the cylons, or the proliferation of the “One God” in the colonial fleet, or even the way the humans and cylons populate Earth and some eventual fallout from this.]
The same relaxation length of photons in the sample atmosphere is constant. [repair gibberish]
Intruders swarm like flames, like the whirlwind, hopes soar, the best to slaughter all their best against our hulls. [a repeated warning of the colonials boarding the basestar]
All these things it wants and many more, not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
Reset
Track mode monitor malfunction traced.
But you are the spark of gods fire, corrupted complete [Is she telling Kara she is the god’s harbinger of his coming, like the spark signals the coming of the flame? Or is this line about Anders, one of the 5 corrupted by the will of the “one god”?]
Threat detection matrix enabled. Dendritic response bypassed. [She says this as Natalie nods to the 8 to proceed with taking the hybrid offline. She is stating that the skinjobs are becoming a threat to her, and she can’t stop them from disconnecting her]
The received dose is altered by the delayed gamma burst. [Dunno]
Going active. Execute. [Either telling the centurian to “do yer job!” and protect her, or just sensing that it will react to the situation by trying to defend her]
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country [perhaps the “undiscovered country,” from Shakespeare, meaning death… also the words used by Baltar on Emily’s tape to describe death and/or the afterlife (will Baltar talk his followers into “drinking the koolaid” and thus killing-off half the fleet, leaving a remnant to settle Earth with what remains of the cylons?)]
End of Line. [end of this cycle]
AHHHHHHHHHHH [“Ow! Quit it! Ow! Quit it! Ow! Quit it!” Notice that her cry becomes mingled with a very faint angelic choir and monk-like chanting in the background. Maybe it’s just Bear McCreary adding his special touch, or maybe it’s something RDM wanted added (the voices of the God(s) or Lords or Final 5 or angels or priests or whatever).]
Thus will it come to pass. The dying leader will come to know the truth of the opera house. [Roslin figures it out]
The missing 3 will give you the 5, who have come from the home of the 13th. [plenty of others have given valid speculations for this line, so I won’t repeat them here]
You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end. [Is she death’s herald, proceeding some catastrophe, or does she bring death with her like a plague? In other words, does she merely signal their doom or does she cause it? And who/how many will die? Too many possibilities…]
End of line. [signing off]
As for next week’s episode, it looks like they rebels and the colonials are gearing up for a raid on a cylon ship. I couldn’t tell from the preview clip, but it may be the Resurrection Ship (to unbox some 3’s and then destroy it, putting Cavil’s faction on the same ground as the rebels), or it may be some other type of ship (but not a regular basestar). When I freeze-framed the shot, I couldn’t tell if it really was the Resurrection Ship (thought it could very well be), only that it wasn’t a standard basestar.
Something I’ve wondered about during all this is where are the rest of the cylons? Are there a few million back near the colonies, or did they all follow the colonial refugees? Are there still some unboxed 3’s amongst the others, way off beyond communication range of those chasing the fleet, or do they have some way of communicating over several hundreds or thousands of light years distance to let them know to box the 3’s, and now the 2’s and 6’s and 8’s? Maybe the ship the rebels and colonials are going to target will be some sort of command carrier, something with an antenna that can bridge the gap? Nah, prolly just the frakkin’ Resurrection Ship.
One last thing has been bugging me about the Dead-dead cylons. During “EyeOfJupiter/Rapture” after Athena died she resurrected to one of the basestars in orbit of the algae planet. Thus it stands to reason that a resurrection ship isn’t necessary to resurrect, just a body in which to download into. Is it not at least possible that another basestar could intercept the download signal and keep the data in storage until a suitable body is found? Does the data have to download immediately into a body (and what happened to the 3’s Cavil activated just to turn around and tell them all we’re boxing you)? Are we to assume that when Athena died, there was a resurrection ship nearby, and her signal had to be processed by the res-ship before it could be bounced back to a waiting body on the basestar at the algae planet? Inquiring minds want to know!
May 12th, 2008 at 11:14 am
I just had a thought:
“The received dose is altered by the delayed gamma burst.” Could this line from the basestar’s Hybrid be in reference to whatever signal that tripped the cylon-switch in the 4? As they were approaching the nebula, they were picking up echoes of the gamma burst that were magnified by the Galactica’s hull, and when they reached the nebula the signal was strong enough to finally flip the switch (maybe because they were near the source of the signal, hidden somewhere in the nebula).
May 12th, 2008 at 11:43 am
A really basic question and an early apology to Nickleto for having such bad ideas and questions: Why isn’t Hera’s blood evaluated for its healing powers and used again to delay Roslin’s death (or anyone else’s death suffering from cancer for that matter)? Hera’s healing power seems to be kind of like a AIDS cocktail drug treatment — it does not cure AIDS but it prevents you from dying. I would be good with that if I was Laura!
May 12th, 2008 at 11:54 am
I have been lurking on this board for a while and am enjoying the posts and theories immensely. This week there was way too many posts for me to read in one sitting so i may have skipped a few here. Please forgive me if I am covering territory already mentioned but I have a couple of theories swirling in my head.
A lot of people have mentioned how loyal Anders seems to be to Starbuck even to the point of shooting Gaeta. I would suggest that he is merely responding to his cylon programming. Now that we have new information that points that the final five may be from Earth or are intimately connected to Earth, I wonder if theses models were placed in the 12 colonies as sleepers. Perhaps these sleepers were intended to guide humanity to Earth should some great calamity occur like say the destruction of the 12 colonies, the exodus from Caprica, and almost all hope was lost. This would explain why they have only awakened now, it would also explain how the four/five ended up in the surviving colonial fleet, even Anders who originally was left behind on Caprica until he found Starbuck. Perhaps Anders fell in love with and married Starbuck subconsciously to guide the colonials to Earth. I think it is for this reason he shot Gaeta like Boomer shot the Old Man. Now to follow this theory through it would point to Starbuck as final cylon which I don’t believe is the case but perhaps there are other matters at work with the final cylon.
As for the final cylon, rather than theorizing on who it may be, my question would be why hasn’t this cylon awakened with the other four? Is this cylon somehow special or different from them? Why didn’t he or she hear the music in the Nebula? Were they not in the fleet at the time like Starbuck? or did the music simply manifest as a headache like that of the president? OR is this cylon already aware of his or her self and is choosing to remain hidden? and if so, to what end? For good or bad?
Boy, lots of questions but all worth exploring…
May 12th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Actually hera’s blood did cure the presidents cancer. Unfortunatley the cancer returned. I’m sure if aides existed in the 12 colonies her blood could cure it too. However I forget who it was that mentioned this, but the reason Laura was cured was because it was hera’s FETAL blood cells that did it. She’s no longer a fetus so it might not have the same effect.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Very interesting observatoin John. You know, now that I think of it, Six could very well be the anti-christ-like character. Remember what she told Baltar a few episodes ago, she said something along the lines of “imagine what type of a person one would be that faced the Gods” I dont remember the exact quote, but her tone was all about how great Gaius would be, how mighty and powerful, and you hear Baltar responding like “No, it’s not about that, it’s about them” pointing to all his followers who had just been brutally attacked by the Sons of Ares or whatever.
Head Six is a really confusing character, but I have a feeling she’s possibly THE most important character in the entire show, her and Gaius. I cant think of anyone else who is more important. Starbuck and the Final Cylon (if it’s not Baltar), Hera and the First Hybrid would come close, but Head Six and Gaius are definitely key to the entire story. It is “their children” after all, the next generation. And yet Athena and Helo are the physical parents of Hera…and the fact that Gaius and Six are the “parents” of Hera, I think they mean at much higher level than t he physical.
————-Here is a small not too bad spoiler related to that. It has to do with WHEN the Final Cylon will be revealed, approximately, not the exact episode mind, just generally—————-
SPOILER
I’ve read that the Final Cylon will be revealed at the end of Season 4. So that’d seem that the Final Cylon wont be revealed in the mid-season cliffhanger “Revelations” and probably not until the very lsat few episodes of Season 4. That’s of course just a rumor I heard. We’ll have to see.
END SPOILER
~Adalla
May 12th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
bberri, he may have said “few” or “if”. Either way, he did not say “she is one of us” and that was my point.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Thank you Tootie. I thought I was going crazy being the only one to grip about the opening. Go back and read my post about how disappointed I was with the opening. I even make a Wizard of Oz reference. :p The scene is so ridiculous and the the only reason they went that direction is so they could make it plausible for Athena to go with Kara to the Baseship. Now that I think about it the whole Helo and the countdown part of the story was stupid and cliché. How many times have we seen a countdown and then the crisis avoided at the last possible moment?
Very good point about 666. The 8s did warn Athena about the 6s this episode. How fracked up would it be if Baltar was the christ figure and, Adalla put it, head-six was the anti-christ. For all we know they could be the same person.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
With all these posts and more and more each week I’m just skimming over them. It seems my going out of my way with the hybrid’s prophecy’s back when Razor first came out is catching on. I’m glad I’m not the only geek out there who likes to have fun with this part of the story line. Granted we are all just shooting in the dark but it sure is fun isn’t it? As for trying to get a t-shirt, I really don’t care I’ve got tons of them. I’m just doing this for the fun of it.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
@MAJIK
Thanks for the kind words.
This episode contained some wonderful clues and I was so Pumped to use them in my analysis. I definitely feel like I want to go back re-watch more old episodes in the hunt for clues. For instance, I noticed that in one of the episodes where Helo and Athena are stranded on Caprica, after Helo discovers that Athena is a cylon, Athena says (paraphrase) “I’m pregnant…don’t you realize that our child , it’s the next step?” Its interesting that Athena had an understanding of Hera’s importance. I wonder how much of the Cylon’s religion depicts epic events like the birth of the first Human/Cylon child? I bring up this point because its apparent from what Ron Moore has said that some things in the show have been planned as part of the big picture and other things have been figured out along the way.
Let’s keep this board positive.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I agree Jim, I’ve had so much fun these past few days trying figure out what it all means and reading what others think about the prophecy. My hope is that Mat+Nat will do another double episode like they did with Razor.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
completely unrelated but did anyone notice that Leoben is in the new X-Files movie?
May 12th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
It was, back in season two but I I thought it was a completely bogus deus ex machina to write themselves out of a plot corner they’d backed into, almost literally from the opening of the mini-series. The day of the attack, Roslin is diagnosed with terminal breast cancer and optimistically has nine months to live. Clock is ticking, and TPTB had to either fraking let her die or figure out a way to get her out of sickbay. It could have been a lot worse, but I wish Baltar’s discovery of the ‘magic’ cancer-eating properties of Hera’s blood was better set up.
I’d also like to note that at this point, Sharon Agathon is a ‘thing’ who can be strapped to a table and forced to undergo an abortion, or have fetal blood extracted from her… or whatever. She is a Colonial officer, with a daughter who presumably still has certain human rights — including the right not to be used as some kind of experimental blood cow.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
[quote]I’d also like to note that at this point, Sharon Agathon is a ‘thing’ who can be strapped to a table and forced to undergo an abortion, or have fetal blood extracted from her… or whatever. She is a Colonial officer, with a daughter who presumably still has certain human rights — including the right not to be used as some kind of experimental blood cow.[/quote]
I would have assumed that they would have synthesized the blood of the fetus to cure everyone of any diseases after that. But they really just.. extrated blood from the fetus and injected it directly into the president. It just seems to simple. I agree they can’t violate Athena or Hera’s rights anymore and never should have in the first place. But you’d think they would have taken the opportunity back then while they had it to create a fleet wide immunity or something.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Hello – I haven’t seen all the episodes, it’s my boyfriend who lives for 7:00 pm Friday nights but I must admit I find this show more layered than most and really quite intriguing. Quite a lot of ideas woven into a pretty entertaining storyline – lots to digest, interpret, discuss…anyway here’s what I bring to it and forgive me if it all old news.
The “spark of god” comment by the hybrid – that sounds pretty gnostic to me. What with the rage for the da vinci code and the gospels and Judas and Mary Madgalene, the Nag Hammadi and the like it doesn’t seem that far-fetched to me what we might have here is a storyline about Kara Thrace the original mystic, and a seer – the one who comes to the new belief in a “one god” by way of gnosis – a “knowing”. Gnosis is personal experience of the “truth” as opposed to by way of the cultish gathering of outcasts Baltar finds himself swept up with; the “christ” as a transformational concept within one that makes one transcend what one is – “resurrect” in your own lifetime – as opposed to the idea of the “christ” as an actual man who lived and breathed and died and whose legacy lives in book that people use to justify all manner of behaviour, good and bad. Kara has died, been resurrected and is now absolutely gripped by the knowing of her peoples’ destination. Of course the gnostics, having lost the battle for control of the fledgling belief have gone down in history as heretics – I just love the idea of this as the story of the Original Heretic, and all the implications of the new beliefs coming to the creatures doing the creating from the creatures they’ve created who seem to have evolved more than their creators…the first thing I thought of when I saw that planet was that looks like it could be Jupiter from above…
Anyway, it’s so easy to read things into things. It was really interesting how much this particular episode concentrated on ideas of “us” and “them”. That whole scene where the six kills the woman who killed her back on Caprica (forgive me I haven’t got all of who’s who yet) – there’s Athena who’s the “them” with the “us” who finds herself back amongst the “them” again and more with “us” than ever; Sam the “them” who’s just found out he’s “them” and now finds himself amongst his real kind yet still hidden form both sides; Kara who is “us” but not “us” really any more, surrounded by “them” but no more alone than she would be back amongst the humans (may I digress here and comment on the fact that Tory the only newly self-discovered cylon who is revelling in her newfound status is also the only one that hasn’t killed someone she considered “them” only to find out that she was “them” too – no wonder the other three are struggling with it). Lots of talk about us and them. And the six with Sam’s gun to her head saying “we were trying to help these people” – that’s what warring and imperial forces have always convinced themselves, along with god being on their side. Gee whiz, how can people being killed just not understand that?
Anyway, I think the writers definitely have a point (or two!) to make, and are playing around with a lot of ideas. But I’m fairly ignorant of the series as a whole, so maybe someone if interested in some of these ideas and more of a diehard fan could take it and run with it, make something of it.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Great episode. What struck me the most was Leoben’s comment, “The unstruck music vibrates in all of us…few can hear it… Kara is one of the few”. The word unstruck is strongly associated with the Hindu heart chakra, a.k.a. Anahata Chakra. “Anahata” means “unstruck” referring to the eternal and endless vibration, the pulse of the Universe, which manifests from the heart centre. This chakra is symbolised by a green or pink lotus with twelve red petals. Each petal symbolizes either lust, fraud, indecision, repentance, hope, anxiety, longing, impartiality, arrogance, incompetence, discrimination and defiance. Probably not to hard to match each trait with a cylon. Anahata is the centre of unconditional love, alertness, and compassion… could this be the role of Kara Thrace? At this level, feelings of universal brotherhood and tolerance begin to develop and all beings are accepted and loved for what they are. Traditionally, this chakra is represented as an emerald green flower (remember 6’s emerald green dress in escape velocity, emerald green) ?
Another interesting comment was when Anders says, She’s looking past us, i’ve seen the look many times, but never in the eyes of a cylon. He is obviously referring to Starbuck and their strange, disfunctional relationship. She is almost always looking past him. Does this mean she is not a cylon? Interesting foreshadowing.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Well here is my in depth analysis. The hybrid is hot! Something about her weirdness and her face just gets me going! Yes I am a freak, but an honest one.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
4 more comments and we officially pass the record breaking 153 comments for episode 406 here on BSGcast.com
And we still have 4 days left lol.
Can I try?
Lust – Six
Arrogance – Cavil
Defiance – D’anna
Hope – Athena Eight
Repentance – Tyrol
Fraud – Simon
Inconpetence – The Six that always gets shot…and last episode got shot for good and is never coming back
Indecision – Tigh
Discrimination – Tory
Impartiality – Anders
Longing – Leoben
the only one left is Anxiety…and the only one not taken is Doral…so lol…guess he was anxious when they were trying to say he was a cylon back in Season 1
May 12th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
So if the rebel cylons are going to ally themselves with the fleet, does that mean Caprica Six gets released and is free to roam? Wish I could go in depth like some here, but I can’t stop thinking about the hybrid. >:)
May 12th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Kate that was an amazing analysis. I didn’t even realize that. Thanks for shareing.
About the Triple six’s It may not mean, Head six, Natalie, Caprica, Gina, and or the one who got shot. Or any 3 of the forementioned 6’s. In sacred geometry 666 does nessicarily mean anything evil. It’s a sign of a physical manifestation. That something powerful is going to happen in the physical world. Not nessicarily anything evil. Here’s a defanition from a book I’m currently reading
666 = Earth Consciousness. This is the number of the Beast in the Bible, so it can represent pure evil, but it is also the number of mankind and life. Carbon is the basis of life, and carbon has six protons, six neutrons, and sex electrons. Generally when you see this number, it means to watch out for physical events that are presenting themseves at the moment, and you must be careful.
Just wanted to throw that interpretation into the ring.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
What I mean to say was in sacred geometry 666 does NOT nessicarily mean anything evil. It is very frustrating that we cannot edit our posts.
May 13th, 2008 at 4:45 am
Why wouldn’t Hera be drawn to the Six’s, I got the impression on the baseship that it was Caprica six who expressed love and caring to Hera. It seemed that Boomer was a bad substitute for Athena and Caprica Six was the mother to Hera. Let face Athena is going to have some real guilt issues about leaving her to go to work and be away on the Demetrius. WHile Athena was gone, something hera might understand, she would want the six’s as a substitute mother/calming effect. In all honesty it was cruel to keep her from Caprica Six, someone whom she trusted and cared about. (remember your erickson? Trust vs Mistrust!)
May 13th, 2008 at 4:53 am
Maybe the final cylon is Cally afterall. I mean, the only child in the visions of Caprica Six, Baltar, Roslin and Athena is Hera. While we know (or assume) that she’s not the only natural born hybride. Just thinking. Anyway, I read someone’s comment about the 13th who was refered to by the hybride in ‘Faith’. Someone said this 13th could be Hera, because her home is Battlestar Galactica and the other Five live on that ship. Sounds reasonable to me!
I also took a look at the Last Supper- picture. Ron D. said it gave some info on season 4 and the fifth cylon isn’t depicted. Roslin is burning something that is significant during midseason. Natalie is pointing at Six. Tigh turns a litteral blind eye to and empty place where the fifth is supposed to sit. Next to that is Lee sitting in civilian clothes, then we have Baltar staring in complete awe at Six who features as a Jesus-like figure who acts like the messenger of God. Then we have Kara, who is embraced by Sam, Ron D. said: notice how Sam is the only one who embraces her. Then we have Tyrol standing there holding a knife, Athena and Helo looking at either Caprica Six or Roslin and last but not the final Cylon: Adama. Far from Roslin, but turned towards her. The more episodes, the more clear this picture gets.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:33 am
I loved this episode! I’m not going to repeat anything already said here but I did notice something important. Because Anders was there to hear everything said on the basestar he will have to go back and talk to the others about quite a few things.
1. He will tell them the theory that they are all originally from Earth-This will lead to even more self-speculation about their upbringings, parents, visions, experiences….
2.He will tell them about the missing 3 “Diann’a” holding the info about his and theirs (the other hidden cylons) and the quest to un-box her- This could get very ugly. Chances are this hidden group of four doesn’t want anyone to know who they are quite yet. They have
already expressed their collective interest in finding the fifth. My theory is that they will sabotage and conspire to control that knowledge
and keep it to themselves.
3. He will tell them about his feelings about the 6’s and 8’s who he will now have compassion towards. Obviously Tigh will understand that, but will Tyrol or Tory feel so inclined to help the other models?
May 13th, 2008 at 8:09 am
About the marking on the boat, most ships, sometimes smaller boat like the one we see, has feet marking on their bow to indicate how deep the ship is floating on the water. If you want to read deeper into that, you can, but it’s just showing that the lower half of the boat is floating 8 1/2 feet underneath.
And there’s still the possibility that the Beings of Light might be involved with what’s going on. Why do I say that? Simple: Starbuck knew that Leoban would be out in the damaged Heavy Raider. And, she predicted that she would see the Basestar (remember, she made the painting on the Demeterius BEFORE the Cylon Civil War). So, maybe there is a possibility of them being involved.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:18 am
When I watched this episode with my friends the other day, we all came to the immediate conclusion that this is probably the best episode they’ve done since 33. That’s saying something! This is a Hugo Award worthy episode, as the writing is all thematically perfect. There is not one wasted shot or moment in the episode, and all of their story lines fit perfectly into the theme of the episode . . . Faith. The guest acting was phenomenal. The normal acting was phenomenal. Even Gaius, who isn’t physically in the episode, has a HUGE presence through his calm, deliberate meditation on God, death, the afterlife and Heaven. The episode was action-packed, philosophical, contemplative and touching all at once. Right down to Adama’s “will I ever see those kids again” and “you made me believe” with that smile!
Yup, this is their best structured and written episode since 33. I honestly believe it will with the Hugo Award this year, unless they pull some more insane episodes out of their asses!
May 13th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Great cast Matt and Nat as usual, except for one thing!
I really thought you guys would have a whole section, or at least be more shocked by the line “the five who come from the home of the 13th”
I mean, yes this doesnt HAVE to mean that the Five are from Earth, and as you said Matt Kobol was home of the 13th too, but why call Kobol in such a manner? If it’s home to everybody, then why specifically say the 13th?
I truly think they are talking about Earth, it makes most sense for the 13th to refer to the 13th Tribe, and for their home to be Earth, the home they found after their long journey and the home on which they settled.
I really thought you guys would have focused on this line as being one of the BIGGEST revelations in Season 4, since the revelations from the Hybrid Prophecy in Razor.
The Final Five are from Earth! IF this is true, and it’s very very likely, then this has to be one of the greatest plot and character reveleations yet in the ENTIRE series.
~Adalla
May 13th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Oh, and yeah I wish I could edit also, forgot to add.
The Final Five being from Earth would imply furthermore than they are member of the fabled 13th Tribe, a special Tribe that was protected and blessed and favored by the Lords of Kobol. The Lords of Kobol had nothing against the 13th Tribe, they only abandoned the other 12 Tribes who particated in the war on Kobol. It appears the 13th Tribe never participated in the war, OR, that if they did, they were on the side of the Lords of Kobol, and not “he who cannot be named”, the “fallen” Lord of Kobol.
So this means that the Final Five are representatives of what we should expect to see when they finally show us Earth. The type of people on Earth they will be like the Final Five, millions of them.
I mean have any of you ever wondered who the 13th Tribe was, and how they where different? Well, the Final Five ARE from the 13th Tribe…so they should give us a big clue.
At least, that’s my theory.
~Adalla
May 13th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Just thought I would post a few thoughts on the two key Hybrid prophecies:
a) The children of the one reborn shall find their own country
Taking the last part of the prophecy first, I take this to mean that whoever the one reborn is that their children which could be followers or creations will find a home separate to that of everyone else. Now on to the identity of the one reborn, I see five possibilities:
1) One of the Brother Cavils since they are Number ones after all, and so his children would be the cylon models who follow him
2) The original Hybrid from the Razor film as it prophecies before its death that “As my own existence comes to a close, only to begin anew, in ways uncertain” which would fit in with it being reborn. In this case the children would IMO be all the non-human type cylons and possibly the humanoid cylons as well
3) Hera and/or Nicholas Tyrol, unsure who the children would be in this case
4) Starbuck, her return is suspicious and given the religous and mystical undertones I could see her return as reborn in a sense, in this case I would put her children as those who choose to follow her wherever her destiny takes her
5) The Cylon God: Given the religous and mystical undertones the series has and the reference to the cylon God as the One true God, it is possible that the cylon God will become manifest in a physical form at some point later in the series if it has not been allready. I am assuming that if this is the case it will not be Baltar who IMO is more like a John the Baptist figure. The five priests at the temple of the five are referenced as serving the one whose name must not be spoken which is another one reference. If this is the case then the children of the one reborn will be the cylons and those in the colonial fleet who choose to follow him/her.
b) The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth
The missing Three is either D’aana (Number 3) or the three known cylon models not present when the hybrid spoke, It would not make sense in the context of the prophecy for the missing three to be Tigh, Tyrol and Tory. The fact that the final five come from the home of the thirteenth is intriguing regardless of where the home actually is since it implies that the final five as well as having a different nature to the original 7 also have a different origin. This may also imply that the Cylon God took part in creating the humanoid cylon models and created the final five on the home of the thirteenth. Another unlikely possibility is that the thirteenth does not refer to the thirteenth tribe but either the Thirteenth Lord of Kobol, this assumes that there are only twelve Lords of Kobol in colonial belief making the thirteenth Lord the cylon God OR that there are not twelve humanoid cylon models but thirteen note that the number of cylon models matches the number of colonies so if there is a thirteenth colony (Earth) there may be a thirteenth humanoid cylon model which is revealed in a twist ending, this could work with the theories that everybody is a cylon, they just dont know it yet.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:26 am
TWO QUICK COMMENTS…
1) HAS ANYONE ELSE WONDERED WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN, AND IF (ALTHOUGH YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED AN THE 12 OR MORE HOURS THEY WERE ON THE BASESTAR) ANDERS COMES INTO CONTACT WITH A CENTURION. THEY HAVE BEEN DECRIBED AS VIRTUALLY THE SAME AS THE RAIDERS, JUST IN A DIFFERENT BODY. AND SINCE THE RAIDERS CAN TELL THAT ANDERS, AND PROBOBLY THE OTHER 3, ARE CYLONS WOULDN’T A CENTURION BE ABLE TO TELL THEY ARE TOO. WOULDN’T NEED D’ANNA TO TELL THEM WHO THE FINAL 5 ARE, JUST TAKE A CENTURION ON A TOUR OF THE SHIP, AND SEE WHO IT POINTS TO.
2) THE TEMPLE ON THE ALGEA PLANET WAS A TEMPLE FOR THE LORD OF KOBOL “who wanted to worshiped above the others” AND HIS PRIESTS, AND WE KNOW THAT THE TEMPLE WAS BASICALLY A ROAD SIGN ON THE WAY TO EARTH, A PART OF THE MAP TO GET TO EARTH.
SO IT SEEMS MORE LIKELY THAT THE 13TH TRIBE THAT HEADED TO EARTH WERE THE ONES WORSHIPING THE SO CALLED “ONE GOD” WHO WOULD BE THE LORD OF KOBOL THAT WANTED TO BE WORSHIPED ABOVE ALL THE OTHERS, AND THIS MAY VERY WELL BE THE SAME BEING THAT THE CYLONS SAY IS THE ONE TRUE GOD, WHICH WOULD EXPLAIN WHY THE CYLONS BELIEVE IN A “ONE TRUE GOD” SINCE AT LEAST 5 OF THE MODELS COME FROM EARTH, AND MAY VERY WELL BE THE FIRST “SKIN JOBS” AND MAY HAVE HELPED THE MECHANICAL CYLONS CREATE THE OTHER 7 MODELS BEFORE LOOSING THEMSELVES IN WITH COLONIAL SOCIETY.
WHICH WOULD EXPLAIN WHY THEY BELIEVE IN THE ONE TRUE GOD. THEY WERE PROGRAMMED/BORN WITH THE KNOWLAGE.
PLUS WE ALREADY KNOW THE COLONIALS BELIEVE IN ALL OF THE GODS, AS TRUE GODS, NOT JUST ONE. THE SCROLLS OF ELOSHA TALK ABOUT THE WAR STARTING ON KOBOL BECAUSE OF THE ONE THAT WANTED TO BE WORSHIPED ABOVE THE OTHERS. THIS CAUSED THE EXODUS FROM KOBOL, AND IT WAS THE WORSHIPERS OF THE ONE GOD THAT BECAME THE 13TH TRIBE, AND WENT TO EARTH. THE OTHER 12 TRIBES BELIEVED IN MULTIPLE GODS, AND COLONIZED THE 12 COLONIES. IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE FOR IT TO BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
THAT MAKES EVERYTHING THAT IT HAS BEEN STATED ABOUT WHAT THE COLONIALS BELIEVE IN MAKE NO SENSE IF ” REALLY THEY BELIEVE IN ONLY ONE GOD, AND JUST TALK ABOUT ALL THE OTHERS, AND KEEP THEIR SCROLLS, AND WORSHIP THEIR STATUES, JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT”
THEY DO ALL THAT BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT THEY HAVE BELIEVED SINCE THE EXODUS FROM KOBOL, THAT’S WHY THEY NAMED THEIR PEOPLES, AND PLANETS AFTER THE GODS, AND THEIR “TOTEMS”
May 13th, 2008 at 10:45 am
@CHARLES
LIKE THE IDEA OF A THIRTEENTH CYLON, I HAVE SAID SEVERAL TIMES THAT THE FINAL CYLON MIGHT BE THE PHYSICAL REPRESENTATION OF THE CYLON’S “ONE TRUE GOD” BUT IF THERE’S A 13TH CYLON WHO IS THAT REPRESENTATION IT WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE.
IF THE FINAL FIVE ARE THE REPRESENTATIONS OF THE 5 PRIESTS THAT BUILT THE TEMPLE FOR THE “ONE TRUE GOD” ON THE ALGAE PLANET, THEY WOULD HAVE A PREDISPOSITION TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE TRUE GOD. THIS WOULD EXPLAIN TORY BELIEVING WHAT BALTAR PREACHES, AND HOW GALEN IS STARTING TO LISTEN TO BALTAR AS WELL.
I’VE SAID BEFORE THAT IF THE FINAL CYLON IS THE REPRESENTATION OG THAT GOD/LORD OF KOBOL IT COULD HAVE A HUGE IMPACT IN THE HEIRARCHY OF THE FLEET. PEOPLE WHO ALREADY ARE BELIEVING IN WHAT BALTAR IS SAYING, AND EVEN THOSE THAT DON’T WANT TO BELIEVE, BUT CAN’T HELP BUT LISTEN (IE: ROSYLN ) COULD BE SWAYED TO BEGIN FOLLOWING THIS NEWLY REVEALED “GOD” INSTEAD OF ROSLYN OR ADAMA. NOT TO MENTION THE IMPACT IT WILL HAVE ON THE POSSIBLE NEW ALLIES THAT MAY BE JOINING THE FLEET (IE: THE CYLONS ON THE BASESTAR ) WHO WOULD SURELY FOLLOW THIS NEW LEADER.
WE ALREADY KNOW THAT WHOEVER THE 12TH CYLON IS SHOULD MAKE QUITE AN IMPACT ON THE STORY, BUT THIS THEORY WOULD SHAKE THINGS UP TWICE AS MUCH.
WE COULD HAVE THE REVEALING OF THE 12 CYLON AS A CLIFFHANGER OF THE MID-SEASON BREAK, AND THEN REVEAL THE 13TH AT THE END OF THE SERIES.
WHATEVER HAPPENS, IT’S A GREAT THEORY CHARLES.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:59 am
What if “who have come from the home of the 13th.” doesn’t mean earth. What if it means there is a 13th cylon, and the final 5 come from the same place as that cylon. hmmm interesting. I’ve always thought there was a 13th cylon. It’s made sense since the beginning in my opinon. I really hope I’m right!
May 13th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I have some thoughts on the Hybrid’s words to Kara.
“You are a spark of God’s Fire.” I’m not sure I’d dismiss this out of hand. It ties thematically into Baltar’s “the spark within you is god” speech, but the stronger language reinforces a belief that Starbuck has a special purpose.
“The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.” I actually think this ties into Baltar’s identity as a religious figure. Embracing the Cylons’ one god was a form of rebirth for him, and his followers can be seen as outcasts. “Country” would refer to a place where they can practice their religion without fear of persecution, wherever that is. This is a fairly familiar trope across many cultures and religions.
“Thus will it come to pass. A dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House.” This can only be Roslin. She’s the dying leader and the only non-Cylon (other than Baltar) to know the opera house.
“The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth.” D’Anna has seen the faces of the five, although for plot reasons I suspect that there will be something preventing her from naming them all (it’s too early in the season to reveal the final Cylon). “From the home” implies that the four physically came from the thirteenth tribe’s home planet (Earth), but I have to wonder about the logistical problems of transporting them. Food for thought: None of the four have Starbuck’s directional sense of Earth.
“You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace.” I’ve been hoping for an alternate interpretation as to this line. Matt and Nat made good points about how some Cylons might not see death as a bad thing. However, I suspect that quite a few Cylons and humans would mind dying. I feel that we’re missing something here.
“You will lead them all to their end. End of Line.” In this statement, “them” could refer to Cylons or humans, which could refer to destruction (death again) or a physical destination (Earth). I find “end of line” to be unexpectedly funny because it’s not just the ending of the Hybrid’s words, it’s the possible outcome of Starbuck’s journey (the end of the Cylon model lines).
Now, going back to the First Hybrid…
“Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end.” Again, this could refer to death/destruction or a physical location.
“She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death.” While “apocalypse” may have different meanings, we again get the death imagery.
“They must not follow her.” Which “they” is this referring to? The humans? The Cylons? Both?
May 13th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
WOW, it’s cool and crazy that the theorizing is still going strong
I’m seeing many similarities with the discussions on tv.com from a year ago..
Anyway, it seems that tvguide’s Ausiello’s super-old spoiler about the 13th tribe
being called “Cylon” may actually be true!! This would definitely be analogous
to the tribe naming convention (Tauron, Picon etc).
About the 12th Cylon and the Cylon God…
1) “The 12th will emerge from the shadows, seeking redemption”
Does this refer to e.g. Adama’s and Roslyn’s respective shadows? In that case,
Lee fits the bill. He certainly has been seeking redemption for his past, as
he pointed out during Baltar’s trial.
It also fits with Tootie’s theory (which I really like), “e.g. this person convinces
Admiral Adama, for example, to take on the uniting role.”
2) The 12th need not be The Cylon God per se. I’m thinking along the lines of:
“12 Models And One To Rule Them All”
I don’t think the true identity of the God will be revealed at all. However, the
allegory of Baltar=Jesus implies that Baltar is doing God’s work, which could mean
that God has been appearing to him as Head Six/Head Baltar, giving him divine insight
into things that he could not have known.
About how the Final Five differ fundamentally from the Significant Seven…
My guess is that the Lords of Kobol are the original 12 cylon models. They incurred
God’s wrath as a result of the endless warring on Kobol, and fearing that they may
be stripped of their immortality, 7 of them started making mechanical copies of
themselves during the First Exodus. The other 5 did the opposite, by surrendering
to God’s will, building temples here and there as a sign of complete devotion.
How they proceed to infiltrated the colonies, I dunno. My head hurts
May 13th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Oh and, the 7 were mortalized *because* they played God by creating copies, and the 5 were forgiven and kept their immortality.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
It was a very nice surprise to to see that we got a BSGcast early today. Good job Mat+Nat!!!
I found the comment about the Centurions only speaking with their guns hilarious. Nat is absolutely right, the Centurions should at least be able to say “By your Command.”. heh. Another comment that made me smirk was the one about the show using the soap convention of aging chrildren. I used to suffer through my mom’s soaps when I was kid, so I know what you mean. What I wonder is if they will use the sci/fi convention and explain away that she ages faster becuase she a hybrid. Finaly I liked Mat’s interruption of the harbinger of death line. Another variation of Kara bring death to the cylons is that as a Viper pilot she brought death many times to the raiders. If you remember, Scar suffered the same kind of thing dieing over and over that Cavil and this latest six has complained about.
May 13th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
i like matt but i just can not stand nat. She doesnt seem very smart and i wish she would just get replaced.
May 13th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
MAJIK, you have some really awesome points, but the caps really makes your stuff hard to read. Any chance to take the caps off? We’ll still read what you say dont worry.
Well the fact that Centurions dont recognize Anders, is proof that it was Anders who subconciously ordered the Raider to scan him. Anders might not have conciously known this, but he instincticvely activated his Cylon side and TOLD the raider to scan him, and identify him. Then the Raider communicated with the rest of the Raiders calling off the attack, as ordered by a Final Five cylon, which have the highest authority, even above the Seven, which had ordered the Raiders to attack the fleet. The Final Five cylon order overruled the Seven cylon order.
Yep, that was my theory also Majik, however as I said earlier, look at the contradiction. Yes, it makes sense that the 13th Tribe is made of those who belive in the Cylon God, i.e the Lord of Kobol that wanted to be worshipped above all others and for the 12 other Tribes to worship ALL the Lords of Kobol. And seeing the Five are the FIve Priests and from the 13th Tribe, it’d seem logical to assume the 13th Tribe is made of Cylons, and that Cylons are the inhabitants of Earth.
However, here is the contradiction.
the Lords of Kobol FAVORED the 13th Tribe and blessed them, while they cursed and abandoned the 12 other Tribes.
Now…why would the Lords of Kobol favor a Tribe that did not believe in them but only believed in one true god, i.e, worshiped only ONE of them above all others?
And why would they curse and send off the 12 Tribes that actually believed in them? I mean because that’s the case, the 13th Tribe WAS blessed and favored by the Lords of Kobol, since they had not sinned against them. So they were guided to Earth, a new heaven for the 13th tribe.
So of course…this contradicts that the 13th Tribe worshiped only one Lord of Kobol, the One True God, aboeve all others.
The only way to make sense of this is this for me:
This has just just dawned on me and I think it is my best theory so far.
So here it is, and the way I came up with this theory, is that I’m assuming the writers took our own world, and applied it to the BSG world and twisted it to make a story.
1) The truth of the BSG universe (like our own real world, at least what most believe) is that there is only one true God, one divine power, which is not a person, but simply God, the divine.
2) The BSG cycle begins on Kobol, where paradise on Earth exists (like the Garden of Eden in a way) where man (humans, no cylons here) live in peace. Among the humans is a “Jesus” type persona and 12 of his “disciples”. Jesus teaches the humans about the one true God, about love and peace and forgiveness, and his 12 disciples help him spread the word. There is peace and bliss and all is well.
3)Trouble starts when one of the 12 disciples lets “ego” get in his way. Ego as most philosophies and religions state, goes right against the notion of unconditional love, self-lessness, unity etc. The disciples and the Jesus-type persona are of course respeced and worshipped by the humans. This disciple gets fed up with following the Jesus-type persona and wants to be regarded as a God and worshipped above all other disciples, even the Jesus-type persona…and the True God himself. In order to make this happen, this fallen disciple creates a new religion, where there is no “one true god” but instead there are 13 Lords of Kobol, one for each Tribe. Because we can assume that each Disciple was given a Tribe to teach. Well the fallen disciple considers himself above the other 12 disciples and Jesus persona, and basically the Colonial religion is born. People start believing there is no “invisible one true god”, but rather, that there are Gods walking the earth on Kobol, these men and women, which they start worshipping as the Lords of Kobol. It is easier for them to worship what they can see, rather than what they cant see.
4)Eventually the disagreement and birth of the new religion causes a War to start on Kobol between those who believe in the new religion and those who believe still in the One True God, the Jesus type mentor, and his 12 disciples. Those who believe in the original teachings, and the One True God, end up leaving Kobol 4000 years prior to the fall of the 12 Colonies and start their journey to find a new heaven, a new home. The 13th Tribe is led by this Jesus type figure, and they eventually find their way to a planet they call Earth. Along the way they leave markings, such as the Temple of the Five. That is because 5 of the 12 Disciples continued to believe in the One True God, and traveled with the 13th Tribe to Earth.
5) Meanwhile back on Kobol, the remaining 12 Tribes go back to living in peace, led by 7 of the remaining Disciples who have “fallen” as well. The 12 tribes over 2000 years, from the exodus of the 13th tribe to the exodus of the 12 tribes of KObol, basicaly forget all about the original faith in the One True God, and firmly belive in the Lords of Kobol. However, the original “fallen” Disciple is still not satisfied because there are now several “Lords of Kobol” who are his equals, and this goes against his plan to be worshipped above all others. So this disciple kills the 7, and clones them. He creates the first 7 Cylons!!!!!!! He programs them as he likes, and they do his bidding. He programs into their brains that he is the One True God, so that the Seven cylons believe this sub-conciously, and publicly, they do as they are programmed, they are essentially still Lords of Kobol, but they do the bidding of the fallen Disciple who started the new religion.
6) So for 2000 years the Lords of Kobol rule Kobol like well, Gods, they each take up names like Aphrodites, Apollo, Aurora etc etc and “Zeus” is essentially the one pulling all the strings, who has cloned the 7 cylons.
6)Then eventually the 7 cylons evolve and start realizing things, and then start a war to be the one worshipped above all others. We have 12 Tribes making war on behalf of their Lord of Kobol, and eventually there is the exodus from Kobol of the 12 tribes, where each goes and colonizes a world, and they keep waging wars with each other, the various colonies.
7)AT some point humans get sick of the war and start rebelling against their Lords of Kobol (fallen Disciples/Significant Seven cylons) and their petty wars, and this is when the Lords of Kobol develop the chrome-job versions of the Cylons. The Seven Cylons and chrome jobs unite against the humans, and hence begins the First Cylon-Colonial War. Then there is the truce, 40 year break, and the Seven go back and colonize another world (Cylon Homeworld). There, the original fallen disciple (or Cylon God) clones the Seven to make millions of them, to simulate the human population in size and the Cylon God rules over them through their programming, and tells the Seven never to think about the other Five Disciples.
8)When the Cylon God gets millions of his Cylons built, he is ready to go back and wipe out the human race who dared defy him. Except that among the humans there is a certain 50,000 of them that just wont die! So they give chase and so starts the BSG story
9)Fast forward to current most recent episode and what’s coming next: the Cylons and Humans wage war, and chase each other through the heavens, meanwhile through some divine plan, both Cylons and Humans alike end up awaking to the truth of it all. Humans (through Baltar) begin discovering that the Lords of Kobol and their whole religoin was made up by “he who cannot be named” , a Fallen disciple/lord of kobol. That it’s all a lie.
The FIve Disciples travel from Earth to the 12 Colonies, re-incarante whatever, and their purpose is to guide the humand and cylons back to Earth, back to the truth!
While Head Six is basically the manifestation of the Cylon God. Oh and at this point you might be asking…wait a minute, Anders had the red eye thing and was able to communicate to a machine (Raider), how can he possibly not be a cylon? Well, he’s neither cylon nor human. I belive the 13th Tribe are the humans originally from Kobol, who evolved all into Beings of Light, with supernatural powers. So Anders, being a Being of Light, can do amazing things, like ordering a Raider to not attack him.
So moral of the story? The Final Five ARE NOT CYLONS. They are Beings of Light!
Head Six is the Cylon God!
The Seven are clones of the original 12 Disciples, the 7 that were fallen.
The humans really are humans, not that theory that everybody is a cylon.
This is my latest grand theory…yes, it’s not perfect, it’s got some holes in it…BUT…I seriously think I’m finally onto something.
I’ve been able to connect quite a few dots in this theory.
I’ll update this theory as I get more insights for upcoming episodes.
Feel free to comment on it though
~Adalla
May 13th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Here is an excerpt from Crystal links that I thought was interesting.
“There are many theories about 13 crystals skulls that will come together soon, as human consciousness remembers its soul’s purpose and all evolves in the alchemy of time.
13 crystal skulls were left behind by a sophisticated Hollow Earth society who left thirteen “master skulls” which contain around the planet the history of these people, their relationship to our creation, and the future of humanity.
13 crystal skulls were left behind thousands of years ago, by ancient Mayan elders, to be found by future generations. These skulls are containers of great knowledge and wisdom holding information about the history of the planet, the evolution of mankind, and above all, our purpose on this Earth and our future destiny. The legend says that one day, at a time of great crises, all of the 13 crystal skulls will be discovered and reunited. When that time comes the information will be divulged to humanity, who will be ready to understand it.
13 life-size crystal skulls scattered throughout the planet that will one day be brought together, forming a grid matrix that will allow human consciousness to evolve and return to its natural state of light. Some of the skulls are allegedly in the hands of indigenous people, shaman perhaps, who are custodians of the artifacts, while other crystal skulls remain in the hands of those who are not yet aware of their importance.
12 people, along with their crystal skulls, will be guided to a specific place, when the time is right, most likely the Yucatan. No one seems to know exactly when or where that will, though the time feels soon. The location of the 13th skull is most likely unknown at this time. Theories abound from a link to extraterrestrials, to buried beneath the ground, to it will manifest when time is resequenced, to being hidden by ancient Mayan elders. When placed together, the crystal skulls will form a grid matrix (reality is a consciousness holographic matrix) aligned with the 13th skull, allowing human consciousness to ascend (return) to its natural state of being, light.”
May 13th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
How do people feel about not posting SPOLIERS here? I believe in free speech, so I’m torn between wanting everyone to have their say and not wanting people to post spoilers.
Honestly, if I wanted to read spoilers I would google them. I doubt there hard to find.
Thus its strange when people bring spoilers to the masses forcefully. If I wanted to read spoilers I would go find them, why bring them here and say hay everyone look its a spoiler!
Sorry, I don’t want to sound negative, I’m a really nice guy, honestly
May 13th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
I don’t have a problem with spoilers because it’s either conjecture about future episodes or something that the majority of people have watched already. that’s the point of this message board, to discuss current or future episodes. The easiest way to avoid spoilers is to simply not read the threads.
my only gripe is how people find it necessary to write a long drawn out thesis on their theories of who the final five are or their thoughts on episodes. It makes it incredibly hard to read ALL the responses and a lot of people are saying the same thing, so there’s this tendency for people to gloss over the long comments and post their comment which is the same as a few dozen other comments. It’d be easier if people could condense everything into a few paragraphs and leave it at that. my 2 cents.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Steve,
Please keep the talk to BSG only. If you don’t like Nat then tune out dude, it’s that easy. We come here to talk about BSG not to win a popularity contest. Furthermore, she’s the most awesome co-host of this great site YOU visit so show a little respect please. That’s what we’re all about here…respect. Thanks.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
I’m impressed Adam, you actually responded in a civil manner. I’d just delete the guys comment and ban him from the site as if he never existed
May 13th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Thanks Adalla! I love this site, I really appreciate Matt & Nat giving it to us and I love talking with all of you. If there’s something someone says I don’t like I just usually ignore it. I try to let people have their opinions…it’s a free country, however, when they come to a place volutarily and rip on such great people I feel compelled to say something. I’m quite sure Nat can fight her own battles…I just wanted to politely redirect Steve’s thinking to a respectful manner. :p
May 13th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
I was looking at the Wikipedia page for my hometown of Wilkes-Barre, PA and lo and behold my town is the birthplace of the President of the Colonies!
Mary McDonnel was born here in 1952. I think that is rather cool…
May 13th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.
Gaeta is so suffering right now and he did something horrible that Baltar knows about!
I know that’s a stretch, but come on it’s the mystery part of the story. and in the few mystery stories I encountered, they always make you say ‘What!? that guy?’ then the author goes on to explain, or you think about it for a while it makes more sense. Plus I can’t really see it being any of the main characters. Who can you really see being a cylon? Roslin? no. Admiral? no. (side note here, it is Impossible for it too be Lee since he didn’t catch the virus he was exposed to that killed a baystar full of cylons) Baltar? no. Starbuck? no.
Most important to me isn’t who is the final cylon, but rather why it is that person. how it fits into the story. The writers still have a long time to make Gaeta a good choice. Though I admit, he is a weak choice right now.
May 14th, 2008 at 1:32 am
People should really put SPOILER WARNING followed by a few spaces between their spoiler material before posting it here.
Anyway, we are six episodes in and have five episodes left before the break (please, SciFi, don’t make us wait until March of 2009). I am already starting to feel the withdrawals.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:11 am
Heh.. yeah
Just think if in the last episode before the break the Hybrid gives another speech full of prophecies, leaving us 7/8 months to analyse every single possibility and consequence..
I think the Internet might just explode
May 14th, 2008 at 6:03 am
FIRST OFF SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS ALWAYS BEING ON, MY WORK REQUIRES ME TO ALWAYS HAVE THEM ON BECAUSE I WORK WITH A UNIX SYSTEM THAT ONLY RECOGNIZES CAPS, SO THEIR ALWAYS ON.
AS FAR AS THE 13TH TRIBE, AND THE WHICH TRIBES WORSHIP WHO ON KOBOL DISCUSSION, HERES WHAT I HAVE FOUND ON THE SUBJECT THAT IS AS ACCORDING TO RON MOORE. NOW HE COULD ALWAYS CHANGE THE STORY, WE ALL KNOW THAT, HE HAS BEEN KNOWN TO USE SUBTERFUGE TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM SEEING WHATS COMING. BUT AS OF THE END OF THE 3RD SEASON THIS IS WHAT HE HAS STATED AS THE WAY THINGS HAPPENED ON KOBOL.
“The Thirteenth Tribe left Kobol and its sister tribes some 2,000 years before the remaining tribes left to form the Twelve Colonies of Kobol”
“During some period, travel appears to have taken place from Earth to Kobol, as the Sacred Scrolls give an account of the journey to Earth. The effect of Earth on the 12 other tribes is significant, as Laura Roslin states that the star patterns from the Earth Zodiac shown in the 3D projection in the Tomb of Athena were used for the original flags of the Twelve Colonies, and the colonies’ original names match the Earth names of the constellations”
“At least a few of the Lords of Kobol remained to watch the 12 tribes leave Kobol. One of them is Athena, who supposedly killed herself in grief over the exodus. ”
“The Thirteenth Tribe has used one planet as a waystation in their journey. They settled on a planet and built a temple to five priests that worshiped what was apparently a controversial deity. Over 4,000 years later, the Temple of Five is discovered by the Fleet. The refugee Colonials believe that an artifact called the Eye of Jupiter resides there, which is another marker on the path to Earth ”
“Elosha states that the exodus from Kobol was precipitated when “one jealous god began to desire that he be elevated above all the other gods, and the war on Kobol began.”[6] This figure may be related to or identical with “the one whose name cannot be spoken”, whose temple is discovered in “The Eye of Jupiter”.
“The Temple of Five, which a Number Three uses to visualize the identities of the Final Five) was not built for the Cylons (who were not created until 4,000 years later) but for humans. The Temple, according to the Sacred Scrolls, was built for five priests who worshiped “The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken”.
ALL OF THIS POINTS TO THE 13TH TRIBE BEING THE ONES WHO WORSHIPED THE “ONE TRUE GOD” WHO WAS a “controversial deity” AND THE SAME LORD OF KOBOL/GOD THAT WAS THE “one jealous god began to desire that he be elevated above all the other gods”
WHICH POINTS TO THE OTHER LORDS OF KOBOL HAVING NO REASON TO BLESS THIS TRIBE SINCE THEY WORSHIPED A GOD THAT WAS OPPOSED TO THE OTHER GODS, AND WANTED THE PEOPLE TO WORSHIP ONLY HIM/HER.
ALSO I’D LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT SINCE THE 13TH TRIBE LEFT KOBOL SOME 2,000 YEARS BEFORE THE REST OF THE TRIBES, THEN THAT WOULD LEAVE PLENTY OF TIME FOR SOME OF THEM (LETS SAY “5″ ) TO TRAVEL BACK TO KOBOL BEFORE THE OTHER TRIBES LEFT ( AND ON THE WAY LEAVE MARKERS TO THE WAY BACK TO EARTH, AND BUILD A TEMPLE FOR THOSE “5″ TO WORSHIP THEIR “ONE TRUE GOD” ) AND INSERT THEMSEVLES BACK INTO COLONIAL SOCIETY, AND MIX IN TO THE CULTURE, WHICH WOULD EXPLAIN WHY THEY ARE THERE NOW.
AS FAR AS WHETHER OR NOT THE “FINAL 5″ WE HAVE NOW ARE THE ORIGINAL “5″ OR DECANDENTS IS YET TO BE SEEN, BUT THAT IS DEFINITLY A POSSIBILITY AS FAR AS HOW THEY GOT BACK TO THE COLONIES BECAUSE ONCE THEY LEFT KOBOL, IF THEY HAD NOT GONE BACK TO KOBOL FIRST THEY WOULD HAVE HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING WHERE THE OTHER 12 TRIBES WENT, UNLESS THEY WERE STILL ON KOBOL WHEN THEY RETURNED, AND WENT TO THE 12 COLONIES WITH THEM, AS A PART OF THEM.
AND AS WE KNOW THE FIRST SIGN WE HAVE SEEN ON THE WAY TO FIND EARTH WAS KOBOL ITSELF. IF THE “5″ OR HOWEVER MANY THERE WERE TO MAKE THEIR WAY BACK TO THE COLONIES HAD TO GO ALL THE WAY TO THE SETTLED COLONIES, AND NOT JUST MAKE IT BACK TO KOBOL THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNS LEADING ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE SYSTEM THE COLONIES WERE SETTLES IN, AND NOT STOP AT KOBOL.
BUT THAT’S JUST WHAT MAKES SENSE TO ME.
May 14th, 2008 at 6:04 am
Nat, you are (with Matt) the greatest host ever – enthusiastic, warm, intelligent, welcoming – Don’t ever doubt.
To Steve, kindly realize that Matt and Nat are super-talented multi-media makers/hosts/wizards who do a variety of very cool things within their careers – VERY SUCCESSFULLY. This site is something they do on their own time – and I thank the gods for it! So say we all!
Hmmmm, Matt, ok I didn’t see the raptor two episodes back (duh!)…but still, doesn’t change the point about basically pulling the raptor out of their butts (it was still not done well at ALL)….
All I would have wanted was, after Kara said “We’re not going back to the fleet” for Helo to say “Sir, we have standing orders to return to Galactica, blah, blah, I recommend you take the raptor” and Kara to say “I am taking this ship” and Helo to say “I am placing you under arrest” etc. and then for Kara after the shooting to say “You’re right, I will take the raptor” etc. Would have been A LOT better and not so contrived.
WHAT A GREAT INTERPRETATION about “harbinger of death” – Wow. How profound. You two are amazing Matt and Nat!
Thanks for the T-shirt – I am honoured! All I want, though, is for someone to respond to that way of looking at things however, because I think it’s completely fascinating…Can anyone think of any other possible plot lines, or tell me what you think of my proposed plot lines and what character would then fit as the final cylon in those cases?
It was an almost perfect episode. I would have liked Adama and Roslin to hold each other at the end though – just hold each other and have some physical closeness.
Cheers!
Tootie
May 14th, 2008 at 8:33 am
So, I think I have a different take on the whole “3-5-13″ thing. At first, just like the characters, I assumed the hybrid meant that D’anna would reveal the Final 5 who would lead everyone to the 13th colony: Earth. But now, I’m wondering if the 13th is something else entirely. I’ve seen theories batted around on different forums that allud to the idea that there might be a 13th CYLON. If that’s the case, than the hybrid’s theory is that D’anna and the 5 will reveal the home of the 13th CYLON. What if the 13th cylon is from Earth? I’m going to make the argument that Hera is actually the 13th cylon.
Clues:
1. Let’s start with the obvious: In a deleted scene from Downloaded, D’anna and Gina were planning to “rescue” Hera from Galactica and take her back to the cylons. In one scene, it was suggested that the child’s name be changed so she wasn’t named after one of the human Gods. I believe it was Gina who said “Why don’t we call her 13?”
2. It’s been said over and over again that Hera is “the shape of things to come”. She is the first and only child born to a human/cylon couple. (I’m not counting Nicholas because the Final Five are said to be “different” so it’d make sense that their children would be “different” as well). That would indeed make Hera the 13th cylon since she is the first cylon created after the original 12 humanoid models.
3. The hybrid said that “The missing 3 will give you the 5 who come from the home of the 13th.” The visions Caprica, Roslin, and Athena had all pointed to the idea that Hera meant something to the Final Five. Because Caprica said she believed she was there to protect Hera, most of us assumed the the 5 were a threat to Hera. What if they’re not? What if they simply know that Hera is the 13th cylon?
It essentially means the same thing: Everyone is lead to Earth. But it explains why Hera is so important to the Final Five.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:18 am
HOLY TOLEDO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAS ANYONE SEEN THE FANEXPO LINE-UP FOR TORONTO IN AUGUST????
http://www.hobbystar.com/fanexpo2008/scifi/guests.html
Jamie Bamber, EJ Olmos, Kate Mulgrew, Sean Astin, Brent Spiner, Buzz Aldrin, BOBBO FETT ….and….wait for it….THE FONZ!!!!
WHOA!!! YEEHAHA!!! I am going FOR SURE – hope to see you all there. The question is, will BSGCast be there??? It was great to see Matt and Nat there last year! (I got Jonathan Frakes autographed picture) We could all get together on the Friday or Sat. night for another Frak Party!!! (I missed Vegas)
So say we all????
(Must calm down -must calm down, hahaha)
Tootie
May 14th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
So say…me all! LOL!
May 14th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
majik — i work for microsoft and can use UPPER CASE OR lower case when I NEED to.
But I also used to be a Unix Systems Engineer so perhaps I am a cylon also!
Seriously, that was a tremendous analysis you put together. WELL done! I LOVE THIS show!
May 14th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Nat + Matt for President!
May 14th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Majik, you have some of my favorite comments here. They are most similar to my own lines of thought. But let me respond.
Yes, all evidence points that the 13th Tribe and the Final Five worshipped “he who cannot be named” and the one true god.
However, where my theory is different is that “he who cannot be named” one true god does not necessarily have to be the Lord of Kobol who wanted to be worshipped above all others and who started the war on Kobol.
If you read my theory higher up on this page, I show that it’s possibly that the truth was twisted. So basically the fallen Lord of Kobol who wanted to be worshipped above all others, is the Cylon God, but NOT the one true god that the Five Priests and the 13th Tribe believe in.
I think it is the Fallen Lord of Kobol who started the war on Kobol, who ended up creating the Colonial religion. I think before the war, the Lords of Kobol were like the 12 Disciples of Jesus Christ, and that there was a Jesus-type persona on Kobol, that spread teaching of the One True God.
I think the Fallen Disciple twisted the truth and created a new religion based on the Lords of Kobol beings Gods, and not there being a One True God.
Also, this Fallen Lord of Kobol I belive created the Seven Cylons and programmed them to serve him, and programmed into their brain about the One True God…but he made it that HE was the one true god, the Cylon God…instead of telling them the truth, that he was just a Disciple, and that he was not the One True God.
Make any sense at all?
May 14th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
ADALLA: Are you saying that this Fallen Lord of Kobol is more like Lucifer — once in grace but now fallen from grace, more like a Judas being part of the 12 or something completely different or a combination of the two — falls away from the 12 (Judas), creates his own special religion/place (Hell) and recruits (makes) people/cylons that believe in him?
Your thoughts make tremendous sense — just trying to make more sense of them
(that was a joke — seriously, they make sense)
May 14th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I know what you mean, Tootie! Fan Expo looks BADASS this year… I wants me an interview with Eddie…
It’s too bad you don’t much care for our chemistry, Steve, but over the last year or so there’s been a pretty good response, so we’ll go with the majority. We like to leave all the comments up, in the interest of the democracy of the web… you should read some of the smack talk I get on YouTube. Some dude called me “the annoying Fabio looking dude”. That’s cold man
Thanks to everyone who treated the comment respectably and with a civil attitude! That’s why we love this show… a great lot of intelligent humans love this show along with us!
~Matt
May 14th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
BSGCast (Matt)- Don’t let that frakker get to you. If anything, you look like you could play Baltar in a BSG fan film (seriously, you remind me a lot of James Callis in appearance, especially with the glasses).
But I still think that the Beings of Light have something to do with whats going on. There’s just too many connections to even ignore (Did you guys even point out in one episode that in the Opera House, there was a picture hanging on the wall of the original Ship of Lights?). In fact, I don’t think that it was the Final Five that D’anna or Six saw inside the Opera House. It was five beings, yes… But it may have not been the Final Five D’anna was really looking at.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Cb2001 The beings of light are the final 5.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
LOL sorry I didn’t finish what I was wrighting. They are the final 5, on a higher plane. The most basic article of colonial faith is “This is not all that we are.” We all exist on many planes. I think that’s what the beings of light are supposed to represent. The higher self of the final 5.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Sirslam,
yeah my theory is that the Cylon God is a fallen Lord of Kobol, and that the Lords of Kobol were akin to the 12 Disciples of Jesus Christ. But yes, I believe it’s a combination of Judas and Lucifer. Judas was “just a man” after all, while Lucifer was THE highest being besides God Himself in Christian theology. Lucifer was the only Seraph (highest choir of angels) to have 12 wings, while all other Seraphs only have 6 wings. The name Lucifer itself comes from Latin and means “light bearer” and was the name given to Venus, the morning star.
So depending on how “divine” we are to consider the Cylon God, he could be either akin to Judas of the 12 Disciples or to Lucifer, highest of God’s servants, but fallen from grace.
Either way, the point is that back on Kobol there was divine presence and a “garden of Eden” type of existance in bliss and peace. And then, one of these divine beings, or at least those spreading the divine word (disciples) fell from grace by wanting to be worshipped above all others, much like Lucifer.
And yes I believe this fallen Lord of Kobol is responsible for the creation of the Cylon Significant Seven. Cavil, Leoben, D’Anna, Doral, Simon, Natalie and Sharon are copies of the original “Disciples” of a Jesus-type figure. And somehow, these original beings lost their power (either by getting killed, or loosing their “blessing” and divine powers etc) and before they died and perished forever, the “fallen” Lord of Kobol/Cylon God found a way to secretly clone the Significant Seven, and program them to worship him as the “One True God” and do his bidding for him.
How or when this happened, that’s where my theory could use help. It could have happened on Kobol itself, or perhaps after the exodus from Kobol, or even as late as after the creation of the first mechanical Cylon, so 1000s of years after Kobol.
My point though is that the Significant Seven were Lords of Kobol/Beings of Light but fell from grace just like the “Cylon God” and have been programmed by teh Cylon God to not think about the Final Five, who are the remaining 5 of the 13 Lords of Kobol. These “Final Five” Lords of Kobol did not fall from grace, and continued to belie e in the One True God (NOT the Cylon God, which is a Lord of Kobol just like them, but the REAL One True God)
Now, where does Hera fit into all this, I’m not quite sure. But this makes sense as far as Baltar, which in the light of theis theory does not have to be the Final Cylon, but rather the 13th Lord of Kobol, the “Jesus-type” person, the highest and most divine in ancient Kobol, who led the 13th Tribe to Earth.
This is the best way for me to make sense of the 13th Tribe, the Final Five, “he who cannot be named”, the Cylon God, the Significant Seven, Baltar, Head Six, the Temple of the Five, and the fallen Lord of Kobol. It’s the best way I could put the pieces of the puzzle together
Kristy, I agree. Sometimes one wanders how Anders, Tory, Tigh and Tyrol out of all people could be divine and wise beings, seeing how much they struggle. But the various planes explains of existance explain this.
In fact, it is very possible as some have mentioned, that Earth itself is not so much about the physical planet itself, it’s probably about the type of spiritual existance, the spiritual level of the inhabitants, perhaps Earth in BSG is where the cycle ends and beings, where everyone finds the Light, finds God, and where the next cycle of learning and growth begins.
~Adalla
May 14th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
I just find it hilarious that nobody seems to be missing Lee.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Kristy- I know, but I’m saying it’s possible that the Opera House visions are being controlled by the Beings of Light, and for D’anna, they took on the form of the Final Five. It would make sense in that context, primarily because Roslin, Athena, Hera and Caprica all shared the same vision of the Opera House, with Six not being able to get a clear view of the face due to the five being on the balcony (this is suggesting that it isn’t a Cylon-only manifestation. If it were, than Roslin wouldn’t have been in there). Much like how I believe the Beings of Light were controlling the Leoban in Starbuck’s dream state in “Maelstrom”, and how the “Count Iblis” being is control the Head Six and Head Baltar, I believe they are controling what is shown within that Opera House to help the humans get to Earth. Though D’anna has seen the faces of the Final Five, the Beings of Light may have been using them so that they could be able to help the humans (as we’ve come to find out in “Faith”, D’anna holds an important key to unlocking the path to Earth).
Don’t believe me? Think of this: in TOS, the Beings of Light took on manifestations to speak with Starbuck. He tried to touch one of them, but his hand went right through. And when he inquired about it, one of them said, “Merely a projection.” So, the Beings of Light may not have a real form in TOS. And it’s possible the same could be said if they’re in the new series. Therefore, they can take on any “projection” they like (and do you notice the same word “projection” is used in both “The War of the Gods” episode as well as in the new series. For TOS, it’s what the Beings of Light call the manifestations to speak with Starbuck, Apollo and Sheba. In the New Series, well, we already know). There was a clip of this up on YouTube some time ago, but I can’t find it again online.
So, with that in mind, it’s possible that the Beings of Light (sticking to the same rules as in TOS, are not able to interfer with freedom of choice, but could possible influence it) took on the form of the Final Five for D’anna, so that they can have her lead the humans to the Final Five and then to Earth.
That’s my theory and I’m stickin’ to it.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:57 am
Going back to the Razor Hybrid prophecies I wonder if there is connection between the last part of its prophecies regarding the cylons:
They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of one splintering into many. And then, they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning
the not an end, but a beginning part and the prophecies of the Hybrids regarding Kara Thrace:
Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her (Razor Hybrid)
You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end. End of Line (Faith Hybrid)
If there is a connection it implies that the end which Kara will lead them too will infact turn out to be a beginning of sorts.
There is also the question of whether the negative parts of the prophecies regarding Kara are actually something she can influence, as both Herald and Harbinger refer to messengers, or forerunners coming before the actual event and Harbinger can refer to any sign that foreshadows an event so her return in of itself may be the event that is looked on as the “harbinger of death”. There is also the possibility that the Herald/Harbinger aspect may refer to what they find on Earth and not what happens to the fleet.
If you look at events so far her return was certainly a Herald of Death for the cylons as since she returned they have started a civil war and several models have died without resurrecting. Another twist would be that rather than humans referring to the colonial fleet the prophecy is referring to the Human Cylon Models, it is also interesting that the Faith Hybrid doesnt just say Humans she says ALL, Kara will lead them all to their end implying that the cylons may be included in who she leads to the end.
Their is the question of what is the apocalypse, while the general usage of the term refers to a widespread disaster wiping out most life and the rest of the prophecy does suggest this is the usage, it can also refer to any prophecy or revelation. Again noting the time of her return, her return appeared to coincide with the revelation of the identity of four of the final five.
I suspect that around mid season it will look like the most negative conetations of the prophecies are correct (and from interviews with cast and crew this appears likely), but in the second half it will become the positive aspects will become clear.
Moving on/back to the identity of the One Reborn, I have come up with a sixth possible identity for the One Reborn:
Laura Roslin: It is a virtual certainty that she is going to die this season, probably around the time they reach Earth if not just before, what if she is reborn to lead the fleet to a new country/planet/home.
FInally I agree with CB2001, Matt when I started watching the Faith BSGCast my first thoughts were that you did look an awful lot like Baltar this week
May 15th, 2008 at 3:50 am
Hi Matt & Nat
I just wanted to share with you an article I read on “All Along The Watchtower”, its meaning, and maybe? its actual close meaning to the series itself. It is here at
http://www.reasontorock.com/tracks/watchtower.html
I believe that in the light of this article, AATW was the best song to apply in meaning to the 4th season of BSG. The message of the song is timeless, and can apply to a revolution in any civilization. As the series progresses, the characters are being influenced by the “Joker”, the “Thief”, and the “wildcat”. It’s up to the viewers to define them as the show goes on. All of the other character’s stories, depicted in the song as “Princes”, “Women”, “Barefoot servants”, help develop the drama of show. So not only the major players are concerned, but also the ones who are affected by all this change.
Keep up the good work!
Joel Plamondon
May 15th, 2008 at 5:24 am
“Adalla Says:
May 14th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Majik, you have some of my favorite comments here. They are most similar to my own lines of thought.”
I HAVE TO SAY YOUR COMMENT ON HERE HAVE BEEN SOME MY FAVORITES AS WELL. THEY REALLY GET ME THINKING ABOUT THINGS I WOULD NOT HAVE OTHERWISE THOUGHT OF.
I TEND TO LEAN THE OTHER WAY ON THE ISSUE OF WHICH GODS FAVOR WHO, BUT I LOVE THE JUDAS/LUCIFER CONATATIONS.
I TEND TO THINK THAT IN THE END THERE MAY VERY WELL BE SEVERAL QUESTIONS LEFT UNANSWERED. NOTHING THAT WOULD BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE CONCLUSION OF THE STORY, BUT STILL ….. SOME THINGS WE MAY NEVER KNOW.
WE ARE AFTER ALL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE THINKING OF HUNDREDS OF DIFFERENT WAYS THINGS COULD HAPPEN, AND WITHIN THAT CREATING ALOT OF QUESTIONS FOR OURSELVES, THAT MIGHT OTHERWISE NOT HAVE EVER COME UP IN THE SHOW. SOME OF THE THINGS WE MAY BE DISCUSSING RON MOORE MAY NEVER EVEN ADDRESS. WHICH WHILE DISSAPPOINTING IS UNDERSTANDABLE.
I PERSONALLY HOPE ALL THE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED.
WHAT IS BALTARS ROLE?
WHAT IS STARBUCK’S ROLE?
ARE THERE BEINGS OF LIGHT?
HOW DID THE FINAL 5 GET INTO THE COLONIES?
HOW DID THEY NOT KNOW WHO THEY WERE?
WERE THEY THE FIRST?
COULD THEY HAVE HELPED CREATE THE OTHER MODELS?
WHAT’S THE EXACT TIMELINE OF EVENTS AS FAR AS THE LORDS OF KOBOL?
WHO WERE/ARE ALL THE LORDS OF KOBOL?
IS THE ONE TRUE GOD THE SAME AS THE “ONE WHO WANTED TO BE WORSHIPED ABOVE ALL OTHERS”?
THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. AND IN THE END HOPEFULLY WE WILL KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS.
BUT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER ONE THING ……. ALOT OF WHAT WE DISCUSS ON HERE WE HAVE GATHERED FROM RELIGIOUS BELIEFS FROM EARTH, FROM OTHER WEB SITES, OTHER DISSCUSSION BOARDS, AND REFERENCE GUIDES WE FIND ONLINE, WHICH ALTHOUGH MAY BE APPROVED BY RON MORRE ……. ALOT OF THESE THINGS HAVE NOT BEEN DISCUSSED ON THE SHOW.
I HOPE I’M WRONG, AND WE WILL FIND OUT ALL THE ANSWERS, BUT GIVEN THAT A LITTLE MYSTERY IS ALWAYS GOOD FOR TV WRITERS, HOPING MAYBE SOMEDAY SOMETHING ELSE COULD COME OUT OF THE STORY. AND KNOWING ABOUT THE NEW PROPOSED SERIES “CAPRICA” ……. WE MAY HAVE TO FACE THAT NOT EVERYTHING WILL BE ANSWERED.
BUT EITHER WAY I LOVE ALL THE THEORIES, ALL THE MANY POSSIBILITES THAT EVERYONE BRINGS TO THIS SITE. I CAN’T SAY I HAVE HEARD EVEN ONE THEORY ON HERE THAT I DIDN’T ENJOY. I HAVE ENJOYED ALL OF THEM, THAT’S WHY WE’RE HERE, TO ALL DISCUSS, AND HELP EACHOTHER THINK OF THINGS THAT WE WOULDN’T HAVE OTHERWISE THOUGHT ABOUT. I LOVE CHECKING THE SITE SEVERAL TIMES A DAY JUST TO SEE WHAT NEW POSSIBILITES THERE ARE.
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR PARTICIPATING, I KNOW I, AND EVERYONE ELSE APPRECIATES IT.
AND THANKS MATT, AND NAT WE ALL LOVE YOU TO, AND THANK THE DAY YOU MADE THIS SITE FOR ALL OF US.
AND BY THE WAY NAT, DON’T LISTEN TO A$$HOLES WHO TALK CRAP ABOUT YOU, YOUR PERFECT. AND REALLY HOTT TOO!!!
ANYWAY THANKS EVERYONE FOR BEING HERE. CAN’T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, ON THE SHOW, AND ON HERE.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:31 am
I think I figured it all out…
Country: a home; any home; a great area of land that humans settle and raise their children; Earth; Kobol; Caprica etc
Final Five: Lords of Humanity
The last of the F5: Dee
The one true God: The one true God
Apocalypse: the moment where good defeats evil…
The cylon model 7: is the model sacrificed in every new cycle of the Final Five
Hera: the new Lord of Kobol… the final of the five will ascend to heaven as their angel; and Hera becomes the #7, who will eventually be reborn as the future sacrifice for mankind to return to heaven
“All this has happened before and will happen again”: it has and it will
Ok, maybe I have not figured it out.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:34 am
A bit of trivia:
I just re-watched Juno last night and the lawyer who does the adoption meeting is our own BSG (deceased) marine Mathias! (actor Eileen Pedde)
Cool!
Tootie
May 15th, 2008 at 6:43 am
ok i dont know if this was ever brought up but last night it hit me. there are 12 cylon models. 13 if you count the one baltar sees. there are 12 Colonies. 13 if you count earth in which starbuck saw. the models can kinda link up with the Colonies, but because we dont know much of the 12 Colonies it might not work out as you think.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Wow, over 200 comments… nicely done guys, this board is on FIRE this season!
Joel, I LOVE the article on the Dylan lyrics, giving an in-depth reading of All Along The Watchtower. For anyone who missed Joel’s post, it’s worth reading: http://www.reasontorock.com/tracks/watchtower.html
And thank you MAJK for the good spirited appreciation of everyone on here!
~Matt
May 15th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Sorry, chef bob, but there is a problem. If you are going to count the head-people that Baltar sees, then you are going to get to 14, not 13.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Matt, you clearly look much more like James Callis (CB2001 beat me to the punch on that one) than Fabio. Maybe you should get an English accent for the next cast?
And Nat, I am REALLY digging the new hairdo! You are frakking ROCKIN’ IT!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:01 am
“And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering”
damn you guys and your final five theories. now you’ve got me thinking about Gaeta as the 5th cylon. the last bit of the hybrids prophecy could be a reference to Gaeta and him getting shot in the leg by Anders. Also, I keep thinking of the episode from season 1 where Baltar “discovers” a cylon device in CIC – nobody knows where it came from but it’s plausible that Gaeta put it there, unbeknownst to himself even. did they ever determine what the cylon device was and what purpose it served? I guess this would also make Dualla a suspect as well.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:01 am
This show is so much better and layered deeper than LOST. I love this show AND THIS BOARD!
Where o where has my (Lee) Adama gone? O where o where can he be? I still bet her shows up as a Judas figure given his position in the Last Supper picture. The question then becomes how does his father and Laura react to that revelation (if it occurs)? Does that push Admiral Adama over the edge? Does the chalice in front of Lee in the Last Supper picture mean anything? Does the closed “Bible” in front of Tigh and the open “Bible” in front of Tyrol mean anything? Are Helo and Athena meant to be “somewhat” bit players akin to Mary and Joseph — involved but not main actors in the story?
I wish I could watch the last episode right now and liberate me from what Darth Sidious would call “my lack of vision”
May 15th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Ok,
So I know you have ‘Save Baltar’ T-shirts, but might I suggest after this half-season is over (for sale at Fan Expo)….
Baltar for Final Cylon
Gaeta for Final Cylon
Roslin for Final Cylon
(…and so on) t-shirts… That would be so cool and I think a lot of people would buy. I would place my order for sure (for Roslin at this point)….
What say Matt and Nat?
Tootie
May 15th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
BSGCast (Matt)- I’ve figured out why Cavil missed the Basestar in “Faith”. If you pay attention to when the Raptor goes through the field of the remains of Basestars, Anders says that due to the debris, the Dradis readings were all over the place (it’s right after the jump into the field occurs, where instantly, Anders notices “multiple contacts”, and then after that he says the line I’ve mentioned). And we can assume that the Cylon’s Dradis is the same. And, unlike “Star Trek”, there isn’t an exterior view for the larger ships, so the debris from two of the Basestars may have covered the third one. And, for all intents and purposes, Cavil may have believed the third one was completely destroyed and it was after he and his ships left did the Basestar in the episode moved into the orbit of the gas giant (which is where Starbuck and Co. find it).
May 15th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
How many people have now agreed that Matt looks just like his beloved Gaius Baltar? Matt…we want to see a British accent next cast! Do it, just like Baltar, and try to do his other deeper voice too if you can
Majik,
well said, I think we all truly enjoy all the theories and comments that we see here
Everybody suffers folks. Just cause Gaeta gets his leg shot doesnt make him the final Cylon
They key part that truly distinguishes the Final Cylon in the Razor Hybrid prophecy is this part “HUNGERING FOR REDEMPTION”
THAT is the key. We all know everybody suffers, and everbody is in the shadow. Starbuck has suffered a ton on Caprica, and in her childhood, and she is suffering from guilt now, immense guilt. Dualla has suffered from a broken heart. Roslin has suffered from cancer, Adama has suffered from near-fatal gunshot wound and from a crazy emotional journey almost losing his second Son so many times, and all his loved ones, Sharon etc etc.
A lot of people suffer greatly in BSG, and a lot of people are in the shadow….so what truly distingusihes the Final Cylon is the hungering for redemption!
And who is at the top of the list as far as the WORST POSSIBLE crimes they commited, horrible crimes, and who most desperately seek redemption? Here’s the the list:
1) GAIUS BALTAR! lol He has never truly taken the side of neither humans nor cylons, always being selfish and thus costing so many lives, never trying to help another person, always looking after himself. And we’ve actually seen him asking for redemption in Season 4 many times.
2) Kendra Shaw. She has commited such atrocities, killing an innocent family in cold blood! And she asked for redemption to the Razor First Hybrid.
NOBODY else asked for redemption! Do you see Starbuck thinking twice of all the people she has hurt? NO. Do you see Roslin asking for redemption of the things she’s done? NO. Do you see Dee? Who has never truly suffered, and is not suffering right now? NO. Do you see Gaeta asking for redemption? NO.
So there you have it. Only Gaius Baltar and Kendra SHaw stand out among ALL others and fit that First Hybrid prophecy best.
And the fifth, still in shadow – Batlar was in shadow, nobody listened to him, nobody cared for him, and then a small group did but most of the fleet never cared and most hated him. He was not an influencial person in the Fleet, had no power. But now, slowly, Baltar is spreading his influence and gaining more power. This can also refer to the fact that Gaius is becoming less and less selfish, and more “enlightened” and selfless, seeing the truth, from the shadow to the light.
As for Kendra, shadow could mean she is still dead (not ressurrected), or still not around, and will eventually make her appearance as the Final Cylon. Or it refers to her journey from guilt to self-forgiveness, her own enlightment.
will claw toward the light, – clawing implies something that is extremely difficult and very slow. Gaius’s process of enlightment and change from a selfish person to an enlightened one, and his increase in influence has been very difficult, and very gradual indeed.
For Kendra this could mean the process of ressurection, or the process of asking for redemption (which happened just before she died).
hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering –
Now this could be referring to past or present or future suffering, or all three. But we know both Gaius and Kendra have suffered plenty, possibly more than anyone else in the BSG story, closely followed by Tigh, bhe he’s already a Cylon anyways.
We have certainly seen Gaius suffer in his process of asking for redemption in Season 4, for example when that guy started cutting his throat as Baltar asked God to take his life. But perhaps we have yet to see more suffering of Baltar. But we certainly have seen him howl while he’s asking for redemption and gaining enlightment both from the Cylons and the Humans.
Kendra, well we know she asked for redemption to the First Hybrid, but perhaps we have yet to see her howl in suffering while hungering for redemption, if she ever comes back
So basically my point to all those who still consider Gaeta or Dualla or Roslin or Adama or Lee to be the Finaly Clon…NONE of these people have asked for redemption! None hunger for it, and none besides Roslin can really compare in the suffering of either Baltar or Kendra.
But if we want to consider the fact that the BSG writers want to get the most bang from their characters, then there are some characters who would get instant importance as the Final Five that they couldnt have gotten otherwise, and others who are still important even without being a Cylon. Let me explain:
Baltar would still be the most important person in the BSG story even if he was not a Final Cylon. He might be the 13th Lord of Kobol/Jesus-type figure, so it’d be beyond any Cylon or Human, he’d be divine.
Starbuck would still be extremely important as an Angel (so also divine like Baltar) with a divine purpose.
Roslin would be extremely important as a divine person, with a divine mission.
Adama would be ok without being the Final Cylon, because he’s the top commander of the Fleet, along with Roslin the leader of the entire fleet, so he’d be ok.
Now we get to some characters that if they turn out not to be the Final Cylon, they will always be remembered “as just another human character we liked” but without any real importance in the grand scheme of things.
For example, take Dualla, Gaeta, Lee, Tom Zerek, Cally, Zak Adama, Helo
ALL these characters, if they turn out NOT to be the Final Cylon, will be pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things in BSG, compared to Lords of Kobol, Divine angels and prophets and messengers etc. They’d be “mere mortals” who have minor roles.
However, any of these, if they turn out to be the Final Cylon…get INSTANT importance. They instally go from being a mere human, to a Final Five, which we know are crucial to the big story, being either Lords of Kobol and/or Beings of Light and divine themselves.
An that is why, people like Starbuck, Gaius, Roslin and Hera could make a poor Final Cylon. It’d be like throwing out your highest card in a card game, when you could have won the hand with a lower card. You know?
And this is the ONLY argument in my eye, that could possibly mean that such likely Final Cylons like Gaius or Starbuck or Roslin will not end up being one.
So for the first time, even though I’d bet money that Gaius is the final cylon, I am starting to think that the writers, for the sake of keeping ratings and interest up, and having as many “important” characters as they can, would make a “minor” character teh Final Cylon.
————Spoiler I guess, although it’s already been mentioned here without a warning before ————–
And that would make Ron Moore’s statement that the final cylon is not in the Last SUpper picture a true statemetn
———————————end of spoiler —————–
And I agree with what someone said…we must have hundreds of theories on this site so far, all of them so great, but I bet it’s things that even teh writers never thought about, and as someone said, we probably will never get answers to all these question we ourselves made up.
But I hope at least the big and most obvious answers are answered, at least most of them.
~Adalla
May 15th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Hey, there’s also something else I’ve noticed while rewatching the episode. During the Ferry dream scene, where Roslin sees people she recognizes on the shore (including her mother). Now, there are some there that couldn’t be family, but possibly friends or relations of some sort from her past. Out of all the people standing there, there is one people that doesn’t show up there (trust me, even though the others are blurred out, you can clearly make out their shape, height, race and outfit they are wearing). The one person missing from the shore is Billy Keikeya. Now, you may think that it’s the guy standing to Roslin’s mother’s right (the left of the screen), but it’s not (the guy next to her has a different hair cut, different hair color (red hair than brown like Billy’s is) and at one point, you can see he looks more like Bill Mumy than Paul Campbell.
Has anyone else noticed that? Could that be a clue or am I reading too much into that?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Sorry for double post, but I forgot to say that the article about all along the watchtower is great!
this one: http://www.reasontorock.com/tracks/watchtower.html
So 2 riders against the establishement, who do you think the 2 riders are in BSG?
Also, I uploaded 4 different versions of All Along the Watch Tower to the BSG Pilots JukeBox if anyone wants to check them out click on my name for this comment post, and I’ll link you.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Adalla
Just thought I would say that I agree with you about Baltar and Kendra Shaw being the human characters who best fit the final Hybrids prophecy. I would favour Kendra Shaw as it would also allow the writers to deal with how the final five are resurrected as well as evening out the ratio of male:female cylons.
The only other significant characters that I see fitting this discription are Cylons namely Boomer who seeks redemption for her betrayal of her shipmates, Athena who on some level may want redemption for her betrayal of the cylons and Caprica Six who seeks redemption for her role in the destruction of the colonies. It is remotely possible that given that the fiirst four final fice reveals were shocks the final twist will be that the final cylon will be an individual member of the humanoid models. Given that the numbering system for the original humanoid Cylons jumps from 6 to 8 and it is assumed the final model is Number 7 this could be because the seventh is based on 6 or 8 is based on 7. If this crazy theory is true I would go with Boomer as she is the cylon most in need of redemption after the early events of this season.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
“And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering”
“Only Gaius Baltar and Kendra SHaw stand out among ALL others and fit that First Hybrid prophecy best.”
I would argue that Adm Cain fits the prophecy as well. She suffered when her little sister was taken away and she might want redemption because she LET them take her away, and by that I mean she did nothing to help her sister when she fell and hurt herself. Or, she might be seeking redemption for her actions against the civilian fleet – it was her that ordered the Pegasus crew to strip the civilian ships of parts and labor, so the deaths of the family would fall on her shoulders, not Kendra Shaw.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
gaseous- You sort of got a point there.
Even more ironic, another circle in the stream: Roslin was responsible for the deaths of the civies aboard the Olypmic Carrier, not Apollo (though he feels guilty for pulling the trigger). Shaw feels guilty about what happened to the civies on the Syllia, but it was Cain that gave the order.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
From what I saw of Admiral Cain, there was not even ONE instant, where she even came close to being sorry for what she had done. All the atrocities, abandoning and entire civilian fleet that probably ended up being captured, tortured and/or killed by the Cylon. Shooting of her XO, and the inhuman torture of Gina.
If she came back and THEN showed an interest in redemption, I could see her fitting the prophecy well. However, I find it highly unlikely that there is enough time left to truly develop Cain’s character to fit the prophecy. She certainly does not fit it from what we’ve seen so far. SHe doesnt seem sorry at all for anything she’s done.
Kendra on the other hand, was one of two characters we seen (the other as I said is Baltar) who openly asked for redemption.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Hey, I was thinkin about when the guy slightly put his hand in the goo, after that he said a detail about the cylon ships capabilities or something that he might possibly not have known if he didnt do that. Just an idea.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:38 am
“From what I saw of Admiral Cain, there was not even ONE instant, where she even came close to being sorry for what she had done. All the atrocities, abandoning and entire civilian fleet that probably ended up being captured, tortured and/or killed by the Cylon. Shooting of her XO, and the inhuman torture of Gina.
If she came back and THEN showed an interest in redemption, I could see her fitting the prophecy well. However, I find it highly unlikely that there is enough time left to truly develop Cain’s character to fit the prophecy. She certainly does not fit it from what we’ve seen so far. SHe doesnt seem sorry at all for anything she’s done.”
perhaps, but I don’t think it’s required for her to verbalise remorse in any shape or form. I think her suffering came from inside and she may have struggled with the idea that as an Admiral she had to be the strong leader – showing remorse would be a sign of weakness. Kendra Shaw was merely an instrument, a means to an end.
going back to her little sister being taken by the cylons, this was obviously the catalyst that cemented her persona into what it was — she showed weakness in a time of danger and she lost her sister. her role as the commander of the Pegasus didn’t allow her to do that. it’s the same with Adama. he’s usually portrayed as the stern commander who can’t get close to his crew, but as we saw in the Faith episode, Adama showed us a softer side to his personality which he never reveals to anyone. So, given her responsibilities in the fleet I would say Cain fits the mold. you may be right about her NOT being the final cylon but I wouldn’t count her out.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Well Adalla,
……I think that if Roslin finds out she’s a cylon, she will need and want redemption. Just the fact that she’s a cylon would mean to her that she’s got blood on her hands, so much blood, simply because she’s one of them (sorta like Tyrel’s reaction). Plus she could do something very bad in the next few episodes that we haven’t seen yet, and be in need of redemption.
So just because Roslin doesn’t need redemption now, doesn’t mean she won’t later in her eyes or everyone’s eyes.
As I have said, let’s look at plot. If the story is going to be that the final person secretly finds out she/he is a cylon and that will be so painful and abhorrent that this person decides to take all cylons out, including himself or herself…this option would work for Roslin. Finding out she’s a cylon would literally tear her apart, and has great story potential. She of ALL characters has no sympathy for cylons, no close relationships with them, and sees them completely as the enemy. And she’s in a position as a leader to carry this storyline forward.
On other notes,
Re-watching ‘Faith,’ I can’t help but notice Roslin’s mother on the shore looks a lot like Mrs. Bush (senior). I don’t know why that’s funny but it is.
Interesting how at the very end of the episode, Adama says “Helo, Athena, Gaeta, will I ever see those kids again?” – completely accepting Athena as one of his kids. Wow.
Tootie
May 25th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
the fifth and final cylon could be only someone that deanna was around….cause she said:”i’m sorry…i had no idea…” meaning it was someone who she felt she had known or done wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 27th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
This week’s episode is already around the web. Did they air it last week or it leaked? Anyways, excelent surprise to get my BSG fix earlier this week!! XD
May 28th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
I am certain that the “one who is reborn” must be Kara Thrace. We saw her die and come back with a brand new ship. Does that shed light on anything?
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