BSGcast: 4.14 “A Disquiet Follows My Soul”
The first proper BSGcast review of the final 10 episodes, we break this beautiful character piece of an episode down into the essential elements and call BS on Ron’s Retcon of Nikki’s parentage. That aside, we’re all smiles about “Disquiet”, because the set-up is clearly going somewhere, and we’re sure it’s gonna be good!
We also throw out a bit of information on the TWO giveaways we’ve got going on right now, the cPanel Flat Panel AND the Alienware Gaming Machine!
January 27th, 2009 at 9:54 am
I can’t believe you guys are NOT happy with Ellen. I thought it was a perfect choice. But I will think about the similarities between Kara and Baltar for now…
January 27th, 2009 at 10:44 am
I didn’t see Nicky being turned into a Cabbage flavored Hotdog as a retcon. I saw it as taking away the human anchor from Tyrol. At the start of the episode, Tyrol seemed to be stuck in both worlds and undecided where his allegiance lies or even who he is. To me, this was because he still had a 1/2 human connection to his child. And now that the last reminant of humanity has been taken away from Tyrol, i think he’s going to be going full Cylon now that he has nothing tangible to keep him with the human’s anymore.
You made some interesting points about Starbuck and Baltar. I absolutely agree with Matt that Starbuck is fulfilling her role as the Goddess Aurora, but i’d go so far to say she is the reincarnated version of Aurora from Kobol, from the time the Gods and Humans lived in Paradise and that’s where she created a form of Leoban who was human (if the Lords did infact create humans). And now in this cycle, Leoban is creating Starbuck, putting on her path of destiny and manipulating her to be on the right path. How she returned, i would have to say she hasnt finished her role in the cycle and died prematurely, so she had to be entered back into the cycle to complete her task and her role in the story.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Yeah, the Nicky thing is definitely pure ret-con. It’s awkward but at least they did make the point that Cally wasn’t really unfaithful, though most people seem to be ignoring that aspect (and, of course, she didn’t tell Galen which is pretty lame). Poor Cally.
I would think that Tigh and Ellen probably did not want to have children. They don’t seem like the parenting type (Tigh even tells Tyrol on New Caprica that Nicky doesn’t want him (Tigh) and Ellen as parents). So I don’t think their lack of children shows much about the Final Five’s capacity to pro-create with each other. Plus, it has been pointed out that in Tyrol’s Earth flashback there is a baby crying.
Poor Gaeta, he is getting a lot of hate and I think he really does have a point. The whole Cylon-human alliance, while it does make a lot of sense, is also really fast and the civilian fleet has had little to no say in what goes on. I do think they are moving a bit too fast.
As for theories, I have to say that I am really hoping that Kara and Gaius turn out to be human. Maybe not normal humans, but I think something/someone else is in play here (again going back to my other theory that the head characters are the Lords of Kobol and are protecting/leading both of these characters).
January 27th, 2009 at 11:34 am
OK first thing I am going to address is Gaeta. Being a combat vet the one thing that shows very clear to me is he is suffering from PTSD and has been for a while. (Post traumatic stress disorder.) We first see this after New Caprica when he is kind of going a bit on the crazy side lying at the trial and stabbing Baltar in the neck with the pen. When you have PTSD you tend to over react to a lot of emotional things, turn to drugs and drinking, altered sexual behavior etc. He has it big time and I think loosing his leg is what turned him over the top. I can see this going one way and that is with his death. Before the revelation of the final Cylon I had been thinking he was the one from the things the hybrid in Razor had said describing the FC. Granted I was wrong but it really brings to light the case for PTSD. In fact after the finding of Earth I think a great deal of the fleet is now suffering from it. That is defiantly why Dee killed herself.
Now on to the hybrid babies as you called them. Granted Athena’s baby is a hybrid of Cylon and Human but not Caprica 6’s baby. That one is full blooded Cylon. You kind of made an oops. My theory on that we know from interviews that the second ½ is going to be very dark and a lot of people are going to die. I have an off the wall theory that Her baby will be a boy and the last two survivors of the fleet and the war will be him and Hera and will be on a nice shinny blue planet to become Adam and Eve, our Earth. I doubt that will happen but it sounds good anyway.
Now there is a theory going on BSG pilots that I kind of like. It deal with Cavil being the first skin job and that he is hiding the things that went on on Earth and is behind it some way. He created the Cylon models that we have known about as well as the resurrection technology. That is why he was so dead set against finding the final 5 because they were on earth when it happened and know he was behind it. The theory goes he did to the Centurions what the 6 did to the new ones and they got tired of being the slaves of the skin jobs and rebelled thus it has happened before and will happen again. This also follows through with the Original Battlestar. In the first couple of episodes of it Boxy had asked Apollo where the Cylons came from. He said they were built by another race called Cylon and they rebelled and destroyed them all. Kind of fits in here and could also be leading up to the old BSG. Interesting theories I think, at least worth thinking about.
Now as for Lee and Zarrek. I think Lee is prominent for being the president of the 12 colonies for a short time. With that it does not surprise me he would be in press conferences. With that there is unresolved tension between him and Zarrek. Don’t forget Zarrek was in prison for being a terrorist. A leopard cant change there spots. He is falling right back into his old ways and using Gaeta and the Cylons as an excuse.
Adama and Rosalyn. Everyone has seen this coming and I think it is a matter of feeling that it is all but over that allowed them to get past there professional relationship to get it to the next level. The one thing that did hit me in that scene was ho she looked like the bald woman from the first Star Trek movie.
Starbuck and Baltar. I think Baltar is nothing more than a profit. In all religions there are great profits and I truly think he is one of them more than anything else. Starbuck on the other hand is interesting. The harbinger of death, ghost, Being of Light? She could be any of them. Me personally I think she is BOL. There was something to the scene where she found herself on Earth that was similar to war of the gods in TOS when they opened the compartment of the crashed ship and saw a body. (We never got to see it.) It was eerily similar to that show and makes me wonder if she is something like Count Iblis or just a normal Being of Light. There defiantly is something there and the BOL episodes I heard in an interview that RDM really wanted to put into the new show.
Well I’m done rambling on here for now. Great work as always matt and Nat. Keep up the great work.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Concerning cylon procreation issues, the only thing we know for sure is that the missing element between humans and cylons is reciprocating love. Given the categories of humans, S7, and F5, the two unions involving cylons which involved love produced babies (2 cases are not statistically significant, but they are significant by their deviation from the norm in cylon experiments). We have examples of loving ones not producing babies (Boomer and Tyrol, Ellen and Tigh), unloving ones not producing babies (Ellen and half the fleet, as well as Cavil), and some ambiguously loving ones (Tyrol and Cally, Baltar and 6 early on, etc). The cycles of time always seem to include thousands of years of peace, not just violence, and this theme of love producing life may be the sine qua non of a non-nihilistic ending to this series.
I would submit that it is possible that we can have pure S7 babies, since love hasn’t characterized their relationships with one another. For example, Cavil’s been doing Boomer, but that’s just too mechanical to be love. The cylon encounter with humans has resulted in female S7 cylons who apparently are capable of love. If a male comes around and takes an interest in the females, could that change? It’s not for certain, but who knows. It is possible that the S7 and F5 are incompatible with one another, but that is not necessary. None of the humans thought it remarkable that Ellen and Tigh, as humans, hadn’t had babies together after a long marriage. We have human reasons of explaining this, and while there might be cylon specific reasons for explaining this, many human explanations may suffice.
Concerning Ellen as a cylon, Matt and Nat, I would refer you to my post on “Earth Revealed”, in which I argued for a female FC on the basis of imitating the 12 Olympians. In addition, with Saul being a decent person to fill the role of Zeus, I suggested that Ellen would be a worthy Hera. I’ll concede that this is not necessarily so, but the role of Greek Polytheism in the show, the show’s pervasive efforts towards gender equality, and this remarkable coincidence of gender balance may be best explained by intention. Check for that old post – search for my alias or the word “zeus” – you should find it quickly. That theory has been uniquely mine throughout.
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In other matters…
The proposal of Full Citizenship is kind of the coming full circle of the cycle of time. 13 tribes on Kobol split up into one and twelve going their separate ways. With the full integration of cylons into human society (which, of course, will only be accepted by humans at the bitter end of need), we’ll have a restoration of life on Kobol, with humans and cylons living alongside one another.
Matt, I think you made a small but understandable mistake. Laura’s role as the dying leader isn’t done. She just thinks it’s done. She’s stepped aside now, and will soon be forced to take on the mantle of leadership again, this time not as inexperienced non-leader, but as a worn out and empty retired leader coming back.
Kara has been so mellow lately that to see her ripping into Gaeta quite heartlessly was reassuring that this is still Starbuck we’re dealing with. It was so incredibly cruel, but it was still so Starbuck. Now, beings of light seems like a decent theory for Starbuck, but it doesn’t account for a burned up body and viper light years from where she died. In addition, head characters, visions and the ramblings of oracles and hybrids demand an explanation like beings of light than do the ambiguities of Starbuck and Baltar. The ambiguity of the Earth focused resurrection technology leaves that as the best hypothesis for Kara’s resurrection, in part because beings of light doesn’t explain her new viper. See my post on 4.13 for my theory on Starbuck. As for Baltar and the nuke, I don’t think we have any reason to think that he died there – his house was hit by a shock wave (not a nuke) and was pushed to safety by Caprica, and he’s never been confused about why he survived that. For more on beings of light, see my exegesis of “All Along the Watchtower” on the final review of the Face of the Enemy webisodes.
The dynamic between Tyrol and “Hot Dog” will become so very interesting very soon. A fatherless cylon teaching a human parent how to parent. The question is, after all that Tyrol has invested into Niki, will he just walk away from the baby? Likely no in my opinion, but who knows. However this connection between cylon and human will prove to be an interesting dynamic when mutiny happens.
As an aside, has anyone else noticed Tyrol’s has smacked around Hot Dog, Cally, Baltar in the temple of the Five AND in his own church, Adama during the boxing episode, and that Lieutenant from the Pegasus – He’s beaten up more people than anyone else in the show!
January 27th, 2009 at 11:47 am
I looooooved seeing Bill and Laura finally hook up. Weird that it took the destruction of Earth to get them there. Then again, I imagine that the two of them would have had an immediate and fantastic victory-frak if Earth had been the haven they expected. So I guess the real message is that not even the dead-end of post-nuke Earth can get in the way of the Adama-Roslin lovebed!
January 27th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Hey guys, Great BSGcast, as usual you got the best points covered. Theres been a firm line drawn line in the sand in the crew for example gaeta.
Mentioning Gaeta he has to be fair been through a hell of a lot, remeber the symphethetic scene when he sang gaeta’s Lamnet. Now he had no idea that it was a Cylon who had shot him until now, that has fed his predajice. I also think seeing Dee lying dead in Officers quarters it fueled it. In the next trailer it seems like he is more than willing to exacute Admiral Adama. He seems part indoctirated by Zarek.
Roslin/Adama
I believe that this has been building up for a long time, the whole dying leader part was played by her but i think that she is not the dying leader anymore. I believe that it is Adama, at the end of sometimes a great notion he promises to lead them to a real paridise home and will lead them through the heavans, i believe he will lead them to the real earth. That aint nuked to hell and gone. I believe the rolls have been misleading i believe, and it does point back to the all of this has happened before and will happen again.
Tigh/Ellen/Caprica
. The child could evan maybe have Ellines consiousnes in it and could be the reason why a full Cylon baby happened.
I believe that this caprica model may have had the concousnos of Ellien Downloaded by mistake and put as a sub-conscious in a freak accident, this may be why soul saw her on Cparica before he did the naughty
Kara/Baltar
Kara seems rather relentless when it comes down to the Gaeta scene and the way he said about the airlock from season 3 Collaberaters seemed to miss out that STARBUCK techniclly saved his life with the begging routine. Baltar seemed drunk at the meeting which may be why he was so un intrested.
Well i gotta roll
January 27th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Found a deleted scene in the final half of the series DVDs… (You may not be able to get this yet but I have them because it all happenned before and will happen again.)
XO, Cheif and Anders are in the meeting room..
XO:
Who the frak called this meeting?
Cheif:
I did.
Tory arrives late
XO:
I didn’t think you’d leave your little basestar.
Anders:
Cut her some slack.
Cheif:
Listen,…
Nikki isn’t my son.
XO:
What, have you gone full-cylon. Denying your kid just because he is half human.
Tory:
Hybrids have their place.
Anders:
What?
Cheif:
No….
Hotdog is the father.
XO:
I didn’t think he had it in him
Cheif:
Hey!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought I’d tell you. Because this changes things.
Tory:
One less person to save when we leave the fleet.
XO:
Nobodies leaving the frak’in fleet.
Tory:
You can stay.
Anders:
Hold on now.
We need to figure out what this means.
Cheif:
Enlighten us.
Anders:
Well we know female human cylons can procreate with male humans.
XO:
“Procreate”…
An awfully big word for a jock.
Tory:
A final 5 cylon jock, if you please.
Anders:
We know that a male final 5 cylon and and a female human cyclon can proceate.
Tory:
And two Final 5 cylons can’t procreate, or was their some other problem Tigh.
XO:
Watch your mouth.
Cheif:
Anders maybe onto something.
XO:
Fine, Tory why don’t you mount a centurion and let us know what happens..
LOUDSPEAKER….
Unknown Draedis contact…
Cheif:
We’ll meet later.
XO:
Let us know how chrome tastes…..
Scene fades to black.
I’d tell you the ending but seeing Starbuck in the Cinderella dress can’t be explained in words….
January 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I liked when Matt said that by acknowledging the absurdity of the show, by having characters discuss them, that those elements become more legitimized. That is exactly how I have felt about such things.
Anyway, I think the whole Gaeta anger plot could very well be going somewhere unique and unexpected. What if Gaeta’s mutiny is what puts the fleet on a path to a new home? Perhaps Zarek is the person who leads them to a place they will call Earth. I think it would be very interesting if the writers decide to go down that route, and allow Roslin and Adama to just die in the final few episodes… and have Zarek, Gaeta, and Baltar leading the human race to its new planet.
That would be a mindfrak.
January 27th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
DRAYDIS LOOPHOLE CONTACT ALERT!
OK, let’s just hold on here a minute. I am with Gaeta. We have seen that basestar hybrid is half sentient, can yell ‘JUMP!’ and take off on a whim through hyperspace (with the President and all the BSG pilots previously) —- and the fleet is seriously going to consider putting CYLON FTL TECHNOLOGY ON EVERY SHIP? This technology would be under hybrid control, most definitely. The ‘wireless ways’ of the cylons to ressurrect etc. are very powerful, and so there is no doubt that the basestar would be somehow linked up to all the fleet’s FTL drives once the technology is installed.
HELLO! NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!
Trusting cylon technology (and that hybrid) would seem to be a much bigger security risk than they are thinking it is…is jump efficiency worth this magnitude of risk? Of course not.
Adama won’t allow a networked computer onboard his ship – and he’s seriously considering putting a network of cylon technology on every ship in the fleet???
HELLO!! I need a drink.
January 27th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
This episode really fed speculation, didn’t it? Speculating is so much fun, but I think we need to be careful of something. Sometimes we get to where we think like consumers, and only consumers. I mean, hey, we’re all watching the show, right? Not one of us is involved in production.
But let’s try to think outside that box. What I hear a lot (even from Matt and Nat – and don’t misunderstand me, I love you guys) is “Well, it’s got to be this. It has to be this. This happened – it means that.” The truth is we’re speculating. We don’t know that any of that means anything. Remember, these episodes have already been filmed. Nothing is news to production staff.
Let’s take it all in stride: what happens in episodes, webisodes, and production statements. Just because Kara and Baltar are special, that doesn’t mean they definitely are something else. I’ve been saying this from the beginning when I claimed that neither of them were Cylons.
What I’m trying to say is, let’s all be careful jumping to conclusions. I hear a lot of “there’s no other way it could happen,” and “there’s no other explanation.” Think outside the box of what we know and listen to what the producers have said. Has Ron said certain elements will appear? Then they very likely will. Has he said he didn’t use them? They probably won’t. Speculation needs to take all this into consideration.
I end by saying what I said on the last page. I don’t believe we’ll see the Beings of Light. Well, not like we expect, at least. I think we already have them, in a sense. We have Virtual Beings and the Lords of Kobol. Those may not actually be THE Beings of Light, but I believe they are this series’s version of them. Ron said he didn’t use them in his formulations of the show, so I’m sorry. I doubt we’ll see them.
We do still have 8 episodes left, a spin-off series, and a television event this summer (planned). There’s lots of good stuff still left.
January 27th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Re. Ellen…
We know that she is in all of the remaining episodes, so is as important as the other cylons.
hahaha
We know there’s a catfight coming with Caprica over old Baldy One-Eye!
We know that it was a marketing/media hype genius strategy to have so much attention paid to the show over the identity of the final cylon. It’s a great and typical RDM mind-frak in that it was a total red herring and the remaining part of the show will not centre around this final cylon, but on everyone, which is the way it should be. Let’s move on with the story.
What remains to be seen is how/if she is different from the other final four. I don’t think she is. But I have been wrong before!
January 27th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
@ Tootie: The idea that the fleet would be linked to the Basestar with the FTL technology makes no sense. The Hybrid is the central computer for the basestar – that’s all. If there’d be other connections, then so be it, but there probably aren’t such grand schemes afoot if Cylons are talking about the difficult idea of citizenship.
@ trueedge2097: Technically speaking, Matt’s not saying “This is how it has to be” when he’s throwing out beings of light as a hypothesis. We all get that we’re speculating here – People don’t need to be reigned in. Besides, the only consequence of getting it wrong is being shown you were wrong – and half the fun of this show is having EVERYONE’S expectations fracked.
@ thee_immortal_one: Right.
January 27th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
About Nicky and the supposed “retcon”: I feel it is not a retcon as all. Think about it like this, we know that Hotdog got a rash in Season 3 by sleeping with a woman. Helo never asked who it was, just said, “Hope she was worth it.” We know that Cally, as she told Cottle, she hadn’t been touched by Tyrol in weeks (this would have to be also including the pre-near death by freezing in space event). But since this is in relation to Nicky, I’ll exclude post-New Caprica events. Now, we know she was pregnant in the flashbacks in “Unfinished Business”, but we don’t know how far along she was. It’s possible that Hotdog and Cally hooked up for a one-time fling even before the discovery of New Caprica (think about it, Cally was pining for the Chief, and before that, the Chief probably never caught on that she loved him even though she may have dropped a lot of hints. So, its possible that she fracked Hotdog to meet her sexual needs, not even aware that she would end up with the Chief later on. And then, after they hooked up, she discovered she’s pregnant, but at the time both she and Chief had been sleeping with each other, to which she is unable to tell who is really the father. Remember, the human reproduction process is 9 months. It’s possible, and is not retcon.
Now, about Starbuck and Gauis- I still believe that it’s the Beings of Light involved. But I don’t think Gauis Baltar resurrected like Starbuck did. You have to remember about the explosion of the house. Caprica told Baltar to get down before the shockwave hit. She shielded him from the blast. It’s common knowledge that sometimes, an object or a person can cut down the amount of damage caused by an explosion. In Season 5 of “MythBusters”, the episode called “Grenades and Guts”, the MythBusters confirmed this. Here is a summary of the test from Mythbustersresults.com: During the control test, the Mythbusters detonated a grenade with no obstacles with several plywood dummies around it at varying distances. The shrapnel inflicted lethal injuries on most of the dummies. For the actual test, the Mythbusters planted a ballistics gel dummy over the grenade before detonating it. While the ballistics gel dummy was completely destroyed, only one of the plywood dummies suffered any severe damage, and what damage was caused was not lethal. While the hero would undoubtedly die in the attempt, he would be able to save his comrades nearby.
Now, granted, Caprica shielded Baltar from a nuclear blastwave, if the same rules applied, Caprica’s body was completely destroyed while Baltar remains alive with little damage. Plus, you also have to take into account that they were inside a house, which means that both Caprica and the house detered any lethal debris from reaching Baltar. So, it’s plausible about the way he survived. Thus, he is not a resurrected person. Now, Starbuck is another story. She did die and she came back. Since the Beings of Light brought Apollo back in the old show, it’s possible that they did the same thing (only instead of resurrecting her within her own body through some sort of mystic power, they brought her back through cloning, like the movie “The 6th Day”). And it’s possible that they fabricated the Viper she was in and that they placed the wreckage of the original Viper and Starbuck’s dead body on the planet we see in order to lead the humans there. Because, if you notice, the corpse that was in the wreckage wasn’t completely charred. The hair was still intact (and from what I know about burn victims, hair is something that goes rather quickly in an explosion or a fire.
January 27th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
I completely, wholeheartedly agree with you guys. This episode was brilliantly written and directed, and moved everything along. I was intrigued the whole time. I also agree that Cally cheating on Tyrol and having Hotdog’s baby is total crap. Hotdog? Since when did Cally show ANY interest in Hotdog at all!? It seems like the writers are just pulling this outa their asses.
The only thing I disagree with you on is Ellen. IMO, she fits perfectly as the Final Cylon. I really don’t understand why you guys hate her as the FC? Is it because she was too obvious? The reveal was anti-climactic? Well, you really can’t please anyone when there is THIS much hype. The only way to live up this hype would to be if everything blew up or something lol. I’d really like to know why you dislike this so greatly…
January 27th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Well, I agree with the call of “Retcon!”, but I want to nit-pick on Nicky’s story line a little more. First, Tyrol brings a awufully-healthy-looking-for-in-Acute-Renal-Failure Nicky into the sickbay saying he’s peeing blood. Forgive me, but I’m in the medical field, they do this stuff and I slip into work-mode. I can fanwank this part, actually: you can’t make a baby “play” sick, and ARF may cause the urine to be really dark, which a parent could interpret as blood. But toddlers don’t just loose most of their kidney function for no apparent reason. Something has to have caused this. I can fanwank that – somebody trying to kill Tyrol for being a cylon poisons his alagemash, which he gives to Nicky instead, that’s a legitimate reason for ARF. But that opens up a whole can of worms about who might already be trying to harm the Final Four.
What I can’t fanwank is what Cottle tells Tyrol. For Nicky to need dialysis, he has to be down to less than 10% of normal kidney function, at least temporarily. Dialysis is no joke, it’s very time and resource intensive, and has lots of risks/complications. If it doesn’t work, Nicky won’t LOSE a kidney, they’re both already gone: he’ll NEED a kidney. One little word, and Cottle blew it.
I don’t see Tyrol abandoning Nicky, but I can see him handing him over to Hot Dog for Nicky’s own safety. And then hovering over them like the big protective bear he is. But gods, my heart breaks for the man. He’s lost everything he ever had: like everybody else in the fleet, he lost everything when the colonies fell. He worked hard and rebuilt a life in the fleet like everybody else. And then he discovered he was a cylon, and bit by bit (first his identity, then his wife, then his role as Cheif, now Nicky) every thing else important has been taken from him again. I just hope they don’t beat up on the poor guy any more.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Starbuck’s a lot nicer than I am. If I’d been her I would have Greedo’d Gaeta’s other leg off under the table.
Why are characters who lose their legs on TV and in movies always so mean? I understand they’re always trying to capture loss and resentment with these types of portrayals, but *all* of them are bastards? Really?
I understand the need to explain why Hera is special and Nickie isn’t, and I understand some people theorized heavily about this, but my personal feeling is that this was an unecessary storyline. There are only eight episodes left and they spend half of it with a character finding out a child isn’t his? Clearly the future of the cylon race is an important part of the unfolding story, but I feel it was too soap opera-y with no payoff. And not believable at this point, frankly. It felt like a cop-out. The only thing I liked about it was Doc Cottle’s clear irritation that he’d have to get involved. Doc Cottle rocks.
I feel other time was wasted in this episode as well. Haven’t the ships rebelled twice already now? Once when Tigh was in charge and once when they were striking just last season? Didn’t we see almost the exact same scenes in Razor, and heard about them in Ressurection Ship? In fact- wasn’t it the exact same ship that was striking in 3.5 as was striking now – the fuel ship? Didn’t Tom Zarek play pretty much the same tune in the very first episode he showed up in, taking control of a ship and being a pain in the butt and having marines have to come get him? About half of this episode was covering material that has already been covered – sometimes two or three times. I just feel that, with the end coming so soon, it was wasted opportunity.
The one great scene was, as M&N already said, the very end. Roslin smiling and laughing after admitting she wasn’t that interested in the fuel ship coming back was awesome. And Adama saying he didn’t care either was welcome as well – these people have been going at full throttle for years. Roslin was right – they do need some time to live their lives.
But come on now – there are only eight episodes left. Where’s Cavil? Where’s Simon and Doral? If they try to just wrap up the entire cylon conflict in just one or two episodes it just ain’t gonna work. And there’s no sign of trouble with the cylons next week, what with Gaeta and Zarek’s selfish little rebellion and all. What makes Hera special? Who are the Head People? How did Kara come back? After next week there will be only seven episodes left. Character development is nice, but rush-jobs and unanswered questions are not.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
I had this crazy dream about what I think is going on, so try to bare with me as I unload all this before I forget.
I completely agree with Kara being a Lord or Lady of Kobol. I love how that every time the Lords of Kobol are mentioned it has to deal with death and sacrifice. Like for instance the planet Kobol, blood will be shed, the goddess Athena offed herself; the lords of Kobol are nothing, but bad news. I also think that the lords of Kobol have a hand in the destruction of Earth. Remember in Razor the old man hybrid kept repeating this has happened before and it will happen again over and over. What if the lords of Kobol are making sure history repeats itself keeping the death and destruction on track. If Kara is a Lord of Kobol then it all fits together she will bring death and doom to all which is a habit of destruction, death, and sacrifice that the Lords have. That is all I can remember.
Oh and two more things I want to bring to attention when Leoben backs away and says he made a mistake I wonder what he made a mistake about. He never says what the mistake is, doesn’t really say much of anything, but runs away like she is death incarnate. I also think the visions that are seen are sent by the lords of kobol. I think it was a lord of kobol that was talking to Kara right before she killed herself.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
After watching this episodes a few things started to click in my head…
I don’t think the cylonson eart were seeing their past (and how they died) as much as they are seeing their future. I think when Starbuck came to earth via the eye of jupiter, she actually traveled via a worm hole and went back in time. Everyone else shows up on earth much later 5 or 500 years later. New cylons, new conflicts, new war, nukes, death ect.
Eventually everyone on the Galactica will go back to the eye of jupiter and take the worm hole, show up in the past while Earth is pristine and live a long life, then die in the war that happens (maybe when the other cylons show up). I think somewhere in there they realize they need Starbuck to go back with a ship that points them to earth, and she takes the worm hole in the opposite direction and shows up at the end of season three.
Still doesn’t explain the body, but we don’t really know that this is her body, it could be a clone, or something else. Time travel is the best explination I can think of for her to be in 2 places at once. Both alive and dead at the same time.
Oh, and i don’t by the Ellen thing, or more to the point if she was a cylon, i still don’t think Tigh is. Never have bough that one.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
Strangely my biggest problem with the decylonification of Nicky wasn’t that it felt like an awkward unnecessary after-afterthought, but that we will never get to see Hera have a play date with her cousin. Maybe the writers thought they were dealing with an elephant in the room, when many of the viewers thought, “Yeah, he’s half cylon, but he isn’t Hera and he doesn’t share her destiny, so it didn’t matter.”
Then again maybe this decision has to do with Hera’s destiny; many Cylons viewed Hera as being the future of their race. They were so eager to procreate that they were willing to procreate with the flawed humans. The new development of a pure Cylon might change that. Will the Cylons choose to continue their race through the humans or will there be no reason to mend ties beyond the immediate need for protection? Hera might be out of a job in their minds, with the new F5-S7 hybrids. The scenes with the Opera house, if I’m interpreting this right (which I’m not) might actually. . . (do I dare say it?). . . be starting to. . . make sense. This is too frightening a thought, and I look forward to future episodes to tear apart my, well it’s not really a theory, or even a hypothesis, more of a direction.
Anyway, back to Nicky. The decylonification of Nicky would not be necessitated if the show goes in this direction, unless Hera (and with her the hope of human-cylon peace) is put in extreme danger in which case there would be no human-cylon back up. If this were the case they could have just killed Nicky with the kidney failure (attribute it to some incompatible proteins instead of nothing) and then be without a back-up plan. I may not like the decision, but condensing so much story line into ten episodes would require certain things be forced into place like hammering a square into a round hole.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
The “retcon” never bothered me because I was pretty bothered by making Nicky half cylon in the first place. Back in Epiphanies in season 2 they found out Hera’s half-toaster nature gave her no blood type, and Cottle just never noticed Nicky had a few liters of cancer-cure floating around his veins? This at least explains that problem.
Speaking of technobabble, has it occurred to anyone that since Cylon and human brains are evidently too similar to show up on a test, that whatever mechanism allows the Cylons to download might be able to be adapted for humans? Maybe someone (Ellen? Cavil?) downloaded starbuck and used the ovary they took out of her in season 2 to grow a clone.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Time travel could be the most simple AND logical way to get “all this has happened before and will again.” It could explain how the cycle keeps occouring between Kobol, Earth and the 12 Colonies…the only thing it can’t cover is how Starbuck comes back to fulfill her role each time…
January 27th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Has anyone seen Head Six lately? She just kind of disappeared after making Baltar fly when the marine was beating him up. Maybe I just haven’t been pay attention.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:29 am
I agree with you about Ellen being the Fifth. I don’t like it. I have always thought it was Dualla. After watching this episode, however, I believe that making Ellen the fifth makes things easier for Saul. He seems to be moving on and even happy about his child as if he’s come to terms with Ellen’s death. The problem with that is things never go easy for anyone especially Saul. My new belief about the Fifth Cylon is that there is not just one but many. On Earth, several different skeletons, all cylons, were discovered leading the Galactica to believe that the entire 13th Tribe were Cylons. Also in Tyrol’s flashback everyone had a different face. That leads me to believe that there were no mass produced Cylons on Earth, everyone was their own Cylon. If that is the case multiple Cylons could have been resurected. I believe now that not only Ellen is the Fifth, but Dualla and possibly even Elosha, Billy, Cain, Shaw are the Fifth. Even though Dualla killed herself, I still wasn’t convinced that she was not the Fifth. After watching Sometimes a Great Notion again, I noticed that not only did Dualla find the toy jacks on Earth she also dug up a locket. It’s easy to miss because they move the camera away quickly. That locket appears to be the same locket she hung up in her locker that also seemed to be the last thing she looked at before she shot herself. I believe that she remembered the devastation on Earth 2,000 years ago and believed that she did not have the strength to go through the pain again. However, I believe that she will be resurected along with Ellen, because they wouldn’t reveal that the Fifth is a dead character if they did not plan on resurecting them. So maybe at the end of the series or sooner there will be some sort of reunion. Even if I’m wrong, I’m sure the ending will kick ass. Can’t wait.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:39 am
What bothered me about this episode is that it seems really unrealistic that they would just pack up and leave Earth. Starbuck literally died to find the path to Earth. The hybrid prophecied that she would find it. I mean since season one it’s been all about Kara’s destiny and her calling in finding Earth, and a new beginning for everyone. And now … what… they’re just going to leave. Not to mention the president’s calling to lead humanity to the promised land, and knowing the truth of the opera house. She’s just let it all go just because earth was destroyed in some kind of attack 2000 years ago? It’s obviously habitable now… unless… it’s not they weren’t 100% clear on that. And honestly I think that Roslyn was more devistated by the fact that Earth was inhabited by cylons than it being destroyed. I just don’t buy that they’re ok with leaving. They’ve got to explore earth more, find out just how and why this happened. Is there any underground survivers like the resistance on Caprica before they were rescued? Etc…
I don’t know.. it just seems a little rushed for my likeing.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:42 am
So… I guess if Nicky grows up to be a viper jock his call sign can be “Lil’ Smoky” ;o)
I’m starting to wonder if this whole colonial exodus to find Earth isn’t just some sort of mmrpg holo-novel someone cooked up to use in Greystoke’s fantastical fantasy machine back on Caprica. Maybe the machine went haywire (or was sabotaged) and wiped people’s memories of who they were on Caprica and they’re stuck in a communal coma-like dream state until they die on Caprica or die in the program. Anyone else consider this yet?
January 28th, 2009 at 10:08 am
I have a problem with the timeline. If a temple is built with a star map, I would think that it would be someplace that you have been, not where you are going (unless you have been there before?). Maybe that is our earth as the birthplace of humanity and the planet shown in the chart, but it would not mean that it is the home of the thirteenth tribe.
I do not think they would use time travel. History flows in cycles and we see that in our own planet – empires rise and fall – all in the sam pattern.
If anyone has read any of Turtledoves short storys, he said that FTL could have been developed during anytime in our history and we just did not do it. With all the talk of 10,000 BC and maybe the pyramids are that old, maybe there was a migration into space and we lost the technology after the event. Now those people land on Kobal, fan out as their world dies, and the thirteenth is still to be found.
Love Sci-fi.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:08 am
So many comments, so little time… Here are some quick responses.
@ CB2001: The amount of reading between the lines you’re doing is incredible. The only way this is not retcon is if they were planning on having Hot Dog be the father of Cally’s baby that Tyrol thought he fathered way back in late season 2. All other data you’re referring to comes from late season 3. Bottom line, that’s a big assumption to be making. Besides, Cally wasn’t the only woman on the Galactica Hot Dog could have gotten that rash from.
@ KittKlaiss: Thanks for the medical insights – you’re either on to something, or they messed up.
@ Jinx: I have faith in the writers – they weren’t wasting time with these stories. With respect to the fuel ship rebelling, of course that was necessary! We have a new revolution coming along, different and more serious than before. As Zarek said, “Every reveolution begins with one small act of courage.” Gaeta’s defection wasn’t that act – it was the ship. The game’s afoot in the fleet now.
@ OtherMatt: Cottle knew all along that Niki wasn’t a hybrid – Cally had him tested right away to determine parentage.
@ Adam: Time travel? What about all the ancient ruins of civilizations they dig up on Kobol, the Algae planet, and Earth? Those make it far more plausible that we’re just dealing with the normal progression of history, in which certain kinds of events tend to keep recurring. Besides, where’s the time travel technology? Time travel is never a simple explanation.
@ tygersharc: I truly doubt that all 10k colonists we’ve lost recently are being resurrected here at earth. That’s just too much to believe.
@ Kristy: Radiation levels made living there prohibitive – It’d be like building a home outside Chernobyl. They didn’t say that explicitly, but I think that was the premise based on slips of the tongue others made.
@ librlman: If they do that, I hate this show forever. That would be a pathetic ending to a great show.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:21 am
I repeat this cylon FTL technology in every ship will come back to bite the fleet, hard.
Signa Jade, I ask you to remember how cylon FTL jumps are accomplished? Thru the hybrid. “The Hybrid is the central computer for the basestar – that’s all,” you said, and I am not sure why because she is much more than that with her prophesies and ability to make her own decisions on where to jump. She has a large degree of sentience. You said “there probably aren’t such grand schemes afoot [controlling jumps of the entire fleet] if Cylons are talking about the difficult idea of citizenship.” We shall see. This technology could be dangerous, but also could be a good thing for the fleet. Would hazard that it won’t be good, however.
Other notes:
Nicky’s decylonification (great word) not only cuts Tyrel’s ties to humanity, it cuts him from everyone. Except maybe Boomer (of course!). Hmmm.
I am curious how will they explain Ellen? – I would agree she didn’t die of the poison on NewC.
What is the bee in Cavil’s bonnet? What is he afraid of?
Who will Zarek want Gaeta to murder? (probably Roslin)
No doubt this Friday’s ep will be lots of action!
January 28th, 2009 at 11:55 am
with all this talk of tie-ins to the original series could the “eastern alliance” now be represented with the alliance of zarek and gaeta? lol just looking for something different to throw out there.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
@ Tootie: Suit yourself. I’ll concede I’m wrong if it goes that way. I truly doubt it. I just think you’re running an awfully long way with very little information. In another vein, of course Ellen died of poison on New Caprica… I can’t believe that’s being questioned… No scene in Galactica has ever challenged that notion.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Signa Jade- The reason why I read “in between the lines” is because there isn’t any evidence that suggests that its NOT a possibility. Think about it: We’ve seen Helo and Athena have sex, thus her becoming pregnant with Hera. We’ve heard about Tigh “spending a lot of time with the Cylon Prisoner” before Cottle revealed Caprica was listed as pregnant. Did we once hear about (directly or hinted to) or see Tyrol and Cally having sex? No. Did we hear about (directly or hinted to) or see Hotdog and Cally have sex? No. Just because we don’t see it doesn’t mean its not possible. And remember, the one year jump in Season 2? There’s a LOT that could have happened. And Hotdog knocking up Cally, Cally keeping the possibility that Nicky wasn’t Tyrol’s kid from him and the discover of this fact post-facto is in fact possible. If there is a possibility, than there is no retcon. Most mysteries are based on possibilities. Much like how Ellen Tigh being the Final Cylon, there was that possibility (even at the end of “Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down”, we found out that her being a Cylon was still possible, it’s just a lot of fans chose to ignore or forget that detail). Besides, the flashback in “Unfinished Business” where Tyrol and Adama talk about Cally’s pregnancy takes place “18 Months Ago”, its indicated that Tyrol just told Adama of the pregnancy. And since the flashbacks are suppose to also take place “8 Months before the Cylon Occupation” of New Caprica, that means that Cally would have been, at least, a few weeks, close to a month, pregnant. So, from Cally’s timeline, there are four months missing, which can includes the moment she got knocked up. Unless there is a scene that comes up later on in the remaining episodes that involves a flashback where we see how Cally became pregnant and who were hitching up their pants afterwards, Hotdog getting her pregnant is possible. Thus, a person like me will notice it.
So, please, stop picking on me for “reading between the lines”, because all things are not about what’s up front, its about subtext too.
January 28th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
what tootie said regarding ellen, we have to wait and see how different she is from the other final four. more importantly, what is she bringing to the show that the other final four cylons didn’t? they’re the ones that helped find earth – what will her role be for the remainder of the season?
January 28th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
When “Eddie” Olmos was saying on all the interviews that the final episodes are going to be devastating I considered it to be a little bit of an overstatement. I mean c’mon, how on earth can they make this even more shocking than the end of the first part of season 4 (or the end of season 3, for that matter)? But the way this story is heading… AARRGH! Brutal…
After the latest episode I gave up hope on trying to figure out what’s to come later on. It seems hopeless, everything’s going to turn on it’s head anyway. I’m just gonna sit back and enjoy the ride/fall.
SO BRING IT ON MR. MOORE!
January 28th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Oh, I forgot to comment about Tigh and Number Six. Well, I think that the storyline of the upcoming movie was finally revealed to us. It seems that our XO has had the hots for Number Six all along. So “The Plan” was to get rid of Ellen and get it on with the Six. Like Adama said on the orbit of New Caprica: “If she gives you too much trouble… find yourself a younger one.”
Can you imagine the drama that follows when Ellen returns and finds out about the two of them? The best lovetriangle in the history of television. Available soon on DVD.
(Hey, it’s after midnight in Finland and I got nothing better to do …)
January 28th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
It’s gonna be 2 hours of “full-tilt boogie all night long”.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
With regard to Roslin/Adama, that didn’t really seem like the first time together for them. I think there has been something going on for a while between them in the bedroom.
I don’t see the Nicky thing as a pointless retcon because a) it’s kinda funny and b) I agree with the above poster who said he was Tyrol’s last anchor. Tory had no anchor and she was the first to fully accept her Cylonity. Now that Tyrol has no connection with the human race – he lost his job and now his son – he has no reason to hold on.
But yeah, it was and “oh shit” moment I’m sure when the writers realized there were two Cylon hybrids now and they’d have to fix it. Not as bad a retcon as it could have been, though. I’ve seen lesser shows do much much worse.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
FinnishFan- I don’t know, but I think Ellen may be down with it. You noticed how she was eyeing Baltar and suggested that he join her and Tigh for a nightcap in “Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down”? She may be down for a three-way. We already know of two human Cylon models that do. So, it’s possible.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
I just wanted to point out that with Adama and Roslin kind of retiring, that means there will be a void in their respective spots. This is a big implication with regards to the commander of the Galactica. Isn’t it customary that the XO would take over, which would make Tigh (a Cylon) the leader of the human’s military regime. This would create a huge uproar. Even if Adama does not retire, it still should be pointed out that a Cylon is the next in command for the military should something happen to Adama, which should cause some kind of commotion among the human population.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
@ CB2001: I wasn’t picking on you for reading between the lines any more than I would feel picked on if you went after my hypotheses. Since you asked, I’ll back off – my apologies, I believe in playing nice (though we all bring egos into this conversation).
You’ve argued eloquently and thoroughly why it is possible that the Cally-Hot Dog arc has been hinted at all along, and I’ll grant you its possibility. I major in evaluating probabilities in this forum, which will always be in tension with your statement of seeking possibilities. I find your hypothesis insufficiently probable to buy into it, but no big deal.
In the name of civil discourse, I’ll drop the subject permanently, and we’ll just see what happens in the show. Cheers!
January 28th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Callie doing Hot Dog and Chief doesn’t bother me as much as the fact the Nicky’s non-cylonness changes how I see the episode where Callie dies. If Calli thought Nicky was part cylon, you could see where she would be distraught finding out her kid is part enemy and it explains why she might want to kill herself AND the baby. But if she knew it was not Chief’s and Nicky was 100% human then why not leave it to Hot Dog? Why not turn in Chief and Hot Dog could be the back up dad? If she hates the cylons so much, why not turn in the four cylons she knows are in the fleet. Makes her reasoning for killing herself seam less plausible. And even though it turns out Tori killed her, she would have committed suicide if Tori didn’t show up.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Signa Jade – No problem. And cheers to you too.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Maybe Hera will be the hybrid for the fleet.
What if we turn this on its head a little. What if the Final Five are actually the Lords of Kobal? The FF made an assumption that they were switched on. Maybe this is a psychic link as opposed to a radio link – possibly triggered by an anolunknown energy contained in the nebula way back when. Otherwise, who sent the signal?!
I think we will find that the FF are more human than machine. Perhaps we will find out that the original war was a religious war.
The Chief seems to be pushing the “I am a Cylon” identity too hard – trying to convince himself that he no longer belongs in the fleet. When Cavil attacks, and it will be very soon, I suspect that Hot Dog will die in battle. The Chief will look at Nicky and realize that he is the boy’s Dad, even if he isn’t his father. That will bring him back to Galactica and the flight line.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Regarding Baltar, Starbuck, and the Lords of Kobol…
The idea of Baltar and Starbuck being “Beings of Light” is intriguing. Thinking about the possibility of the Lords of Kobol being in the human/cylon fleet got me thinking about the picture that Sci-Fi released of the BSG cast, reminiscent of Leonardo da Vinci’s “Last Supper”.
Could it be that each of the characters in the picture represents a Lord of Kobol? Starbuck = Aurora, Caprica = Aphrodite (constant talk about love with Baltar now Tigh), Apollo/Athena/Hera = their corresponding deities, etc.?
If that is true, the picture really is a clever way to intertwine the Human, polytheistic tradition with the Cylon, monotheistic tradition.
Further, I wonder if BSG really is not so much a story about a rag-tag group of humans searching for Earth with Cylons on their tail, but more about the detailed journey of each of the Lords of Kobol and their interaction with mortal beings of the universe…
January 29th, 2009 at 1:50 am
Michael- Don’t forget that Zarek called Adama “Zeus” after the word spread through the fleet that Adama survived the two shots to the chest.
January 29th, 2009 at 2:10 am
First of all I was and am not convinced with the big anti-climatic final cylon reveal: that Ellen Tigh was the fifth! Yes Saul Tigh’s drunken whore of a wife was the fifth! And I liked Ellen but I liked her better dead. She always tied up the storyline with some kind of endless debauched fraking around. I would much rather see Anders, Apollo and Helo do a towel dance! But I digress…
I can’t believe that they actually sacrificed dear, sweet, optimistic Dualla so as to convince us of the big FC reveal. Because up until Dualla blows her brains out I was thinking that she was the FC. She was so emotional on earth picking up the jiax and the locket; it was all very suspicious, as if these were her things. Her reaction was very similar to the other four who had memories on that earth two millennia ago.
Then the photograph of her as a child looked as if it was taken a long, long, long time ago like maybe back on earth before it was nuked.
Then there was that conversation between Saul that D’Anna.
Why doesn’t she just tell him then who the fifth is? And where is she? Has she really decided to stay on earth after everyone leaves? That is so convenient. Ron Moore needed to swig a few more shots of Crown Royal or something. D’Anna is the only one who can really confirm who the fifth cylon is and she is to stay behind? No one else has really confirmed the final cylon other that Tigh having a memory.
Anyway Ron Moore says that Ellen is the fifth and that this time we can all take his word for it. So I guess I have to let Dualla go plus I don’t remember where she was when D’Anna asked for the four.
Yeah for Bill and Laura!
I think that Dr. Cottle should have been up for malpractice a long time ago. He does so many terrible things in the name of humanity. This whole baby Nick is not half cylon anymore business is so…what you said Matt and Nat!
(@Osmium Says: “decylonification” Great word! You should win! You get my vote just for the word plus you made some nice points!
I mean really we all knew that Hera was the important half-cylon child here. She was always the one that the cylons obsessed about and showed up in all the dreamers’ dreams.
I loved Gaeta for standing up for himself on one leg and all especially to Kara. She can be such a bully. And that was a wonderful moment when he reminds her that she aligned herself with three cylons and they were going to kill him.
The thing about Gaeta though is that he is an unlucky charm. Whenever he openly aligns himself with someone they become the loosing side. And he always means well. I think that even now in his anger and despair he still means well when he aligns himself with Zarek. Gaeta always wants the best for humanity. He and Dualla should have gotten together.
January 29th, 2009 at 2:14 am
I just have to say something that’s been on my mind for a while now, but comes into focus a bit more after this BSGCast installment.
Be STILL have SO many questions about Baltar! My frustration is along the lines of what Matt said when he mentioned “red-herring” in conjunction to Baltar. We constantly THINK one thing, and are suddenly proven wrong. I mean (and in no particular order) . . . He should be dead, then he’s alive. He’s seeing visions of Six all the time . . . then it stops??! He’s the father of a Human-Cylon baby, then he’s not. He’s Jesus, then he’s not. Oh . . . seeing visions of himself?! What happened there!!?? Never even flashed-back to again!! And that whole chasing Hera vision they all shared?! I hope, I PRAY that they GO THERE by the end and it’s not dropped.
My main point here is this: WHERE HAVE ALL THE VISIONS GONE?!
Those were the best frakin’ things in the show for two seasons (imho)! It’s not that I don’t like Baltar’s character arc from deceitful coward to champion of the colonies to martyr to . . . whatever he is now. But we STILL don’t know about these visions!
They haven’t focused on Baltar nearly enough since about Episode 4.3 (when he was being picked up by an invisible Six/Hand of God)! I mean, he had some good scenes on the Baseship in 4.7-4.8, but we need more Baltar!!! I need some frakin’ vision answers soon Ron Moore!!!
Other than that . . . love it all. Except maybe Ellen as Cylon-5. But I’m sure they will convince me with one episode when they want to.
And so you all know, I’m usually a VERY patient person, and am the dude in the movie who tells my friend to shut up and wait for the end when asked to explain things mid-way through. I just feel a little gipped at the moment.
January 29th, 2009 at 7:38 am
I wasn’t disappointed by the reveal that Ellen is the final Cylon, but I found the reveal itself a bit anticlimactic on the first viewing. After watching it a second time, it seemed right, poetic, and tragic all at the same time.
I believe my reaction to Bill and Laura was the same as his reaction when Laura said he loved him: “It’s about time.”
January 29th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Matt – just watched it again, and as I argued earlier, I don’t think Kara and Baltar will be revealed to be beings of light, but your last thought of being pawns of the Lords of Kobol – that I’m on board with. It makes lots of sense, and seems in line with the long line of events that make Baltar and Kara completely human, but always with a big question mark following…
January 29th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
And so the truely supernatural events in Battlestar Galactica has been mentioned again. I am referring to the scene where Baltar seems to be held up by an invisible force as mentioned by Jason Howell above. Everything else involving the “head six/head Baltar/head Adam’s first wife can be explained as some subconscious theory but there is no intervention by “high beings” except for that one scene. Then there are the two resurrections of humans (Baltar (he was nuked on Caprica) and Starbuck) which hint at something beyond. Both with amnesia for the events. Starbuck in full attire with new viper and Baltar unscathed. Both Starbuck and Baltar are on missions with harbengering of doom and being “father” to the half cylon.
Starbuck and Baltar are the tools/toys of the gods. They are kept in the game inorder to drive the herd. Starbuck is to drive the behaved herd while Baltar picks up the dreggs. Zarek sees Baltar’s potential as leader and tries to recruit him to replace Laura not realizing that he was actually upsetting the dynamic of Baltar as outcast leader and not mainstream leader. Zarek is the great pretender to the throne. Laura is the great red herring. She talks and counsel and conspires. The great leader who dies before the promise land is a metaphor for a great leader who is confused with the destination and therefore must be removed so that the true destination can be seen as it is and not as what the leader lead them to. Laura dies as leader but her body just happens to stay around until actual death but the leader aspect is dead.
I still am leaning toward the “flawed first cylon” that can only keep the cycle going but is unable to grasp what needs to change to make it workout therefore must repeat the past endlessly. Which brings me to the insane hybrid basestar cylons. They realize their god/flawed first cylon is stuck in the loop. They see the repeat without a different result and are justifiably driven insane but must complete their destiny which is locked in.
The supernatural interventions maybe the last vestigages of the lords of kobol reliving the past as old people often do. They are unaware that it is a repeat and are engaged as though it matters. But they will see it end badly, as always, and take a nap. They will awake to the repeat cycle of the flawed first cylon and think this is real and involve themselves thus dooming the flawed first cylon to throw the reset switch once more. Cross purposes without purpose.
Battlestar need not end with questions answered. That would doom the Caprica series and follow on movie. The question is which character gets to throw the reset switch. Starbuck won’t because she is tired of the burdon. Baltar does not want his destiny either. The rest of the cast would not want this to go on forever. Only the love-struck Tigh and Ellen would doom another humanity to destruction if just for one more chance to be together. Love stinks.
January 29th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Paul S: She’s pretty much done her mission with Baltar. Baltar believes and now preaches the “one true God”, and that’s what she was looking for. There’s a deleted scene in Season 4 where Head Six tells Baltar goodbye. Baltar is baffled that she’s leaving at first, but she assures him that other angels will help his assension further. Then you clearly see her face to nothing. However, the fact that the scene was deleted makes me hope that this means we may very well see more of Head Six, especially now that Baltar sees to blame God for the fleet’s missfortunes. So far it seems she really WAS an angel of God.
This episiode was definitely a “shape of things to come” type of episode, setting the stage up for grave things to happen. Mutiny is a definite for next episode, and it seems Gaeta will be the prime leader of that coup d’état. I’m not surprised, considering what he’s gone through, but I feel a lot of pity for his character. He was so humble and open minded before. Now, because of his qualities, he’s gone sour.
Nicky’s “father change” annoyed me though. Don’t know why, it just didn’t click. I felt forced into this plot, whereas everything else has been flowing so well. “Bang!” Oh! Guess what? Nick’s dad’s not who you think it is! And Hot Dog? I dunno… I can’t remember Cally ever looking at him at all. That’s why it didn’t feel right. I do understand what Moore was trying to do though, and I too feel that they’re de-humanizing Tyrol, who seems more and more abstract to being a human being. The one thing that was keeping him where he is was obviously Nick, who was a clear anchor to his human side – and to Cally.
Well, I’m very impatient to see the next episode, as it’s quite clear that “the shit will hit the fan” in this one. It’ll be a memorable episode, I’m sure, and as striking and rough as the first episode of season 4.5.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
It’s funny, I want to back up Gaeta but I just cant. In my mind I stayed behind on earth.
I know it’s death, but much like Dee I don’t see a way out. If I were actually in the Galactica universe I would have signed up to the military as soon as I could to aid the fleet. I would have stayed at my post in the year of new Caprica, and I would have gone back for our people. But when I saw that everything we did was for nothing, I would have cashed-in my chips at that moment. I would not have killed myself but I would have refused to leave the planet. I’d have drunk some radioactive water, made a radioactive fire, and waited to die. Not only would anything less then shooting me in the head made me leave, but no one would have cared enough to try it.
so I can’t imagine what’s in anyone’s head anymore, why go on? I know if I did leave the planet for whatever reason, I wouldn’t put up with anything I didn’t want to at this point. if I thought Adama was bossing me around for BS reasons to back a present that is, lets face it, an illegal dictatorship that made since before but now is no longer necessary I would act on it too… if I gave a frak… which I wouldn’t….
is that making sense?
January 29th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I feel like I have to start rewatching the series all over again now that we know who everyone is. it kinda puts things into perspective and makes the show a bit of a mind-frak. what was the episode where tyrol was being interrogated by and accused of being a cylon by Col. Tigh? then there’s the pairing of cylon/cylon which someone may have mentioned — tyrol/sharon, tigh/ellen (now tigh/cap6), tori/anders….AHHHHHH!!
my primary reason for being disappointed by Ellen as the choice for the 5th is the way they delivered Razor. was it used solely for the purpose of revealing starbuck’s destiny? why the back story on Cain and Kendra Shaw and why couldn’t RDM have had one of the current hybrids deliver the starbuck prophecy? some of it seemed convoluted and unnecessary.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Great cast guys, as usual.
thee_immortal_one I somewhat agree with your theory. It’s similar to what my friends and I have discussed. However, I think it’s more of a battle between the Lords Of Kobol and the cylon God. Kara is working for the 12 and Baltar is the one God’s Pawn. Both are kept in play by the two factions. The reset button finally being pressed by the LOK or the Cylon God when their plan is hopeless. Constantly played over and over until one side or the other doesn’t anticipate what’s coming and it’s over before they can do anything about it.
My friends and I debated the worst possible ending ever, (i.e. St. Elsewhere, Sopranos, or The who shot J.R. debacle.)
we came up with this. They are all playing an online game except it’s like the Holo-deck in Star Trek the NG. And at the end we find out Starbuck is a 250lb bored, defeated house wife, Apollo is living in his mother’s basement at the age of 40. Adama is the owner of a strip club, and Roslyn is a nun, etc.
Here’s hoping that, or something similar, will not happen. As my friend Keith said ‘That would totally suck!’.
I’m looking forward to this week’s episode. I’d like to see Lee and Kara kick some a$$. I miss seeing them working together.
January 29th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Okay, food for thought… What if who is human and Cylon, at least the Cylon bones found on Earth, is just a matter of perspective because we see things from the fleets POV? Right now we’re lead to believe that there were 13 tribes who left Kobol, 12 were human and one was Cylon and the Cylon tribe colonized Earth. I think it is within the realm of possibility that the bones found on Earth are in fact those of true humans and that the other 12 colonies were in fact the Cylons, which makes the fleet Cylon. The fleet considers themselves human and, therefore, any bones that are different than theirs would be considered Cylon.
Now I’m sure there’s some basis that Baltar uses to make the distinction, like looking at the bones of the Original 7, but that does not exclude the possibility that the bones of the Original 7 are closer to ‘true’ human and were made to mimic them in some way.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
@ thee_immortal_one and all people interested in the floating Baltar hypothesis.
R. D. MOORE EXPLICITLY SAID IN HIS PODCAST THAT BALTAR WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN FLOATING. That was an oversight on their parts and he said as much. No floating Baltar.
Sorry, I hate to use caps like that, but this theory has been taken for granted too long. If you don’t believe me, look up the commentary for that episode and check me.
January 29th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
So,
Floating Baltar explaination is another retro-continuity change. Maybe it was Hotdog holding him up while thinking about how he was going to deal with Nikki as his son. Sometimes you have to go with your gut and say, “Frak the producers”.
Baltar was floating, Baltar died on Caprica. Starbuck wears a Cinderella dress in the last scene of the series….
January 30th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I think it would be a nice way to bring things full circle if all the people who ALMOST got to space Gaeta at the beginning of Season 3 (Tigh, Starbuck, Tyrol, and I don’t remember who else) ACTUALLY got to space him at the end of this season. Adama was nice enough and forgiving enough to let Gaeta back in the CIC when no one else wanted him there, and it seems that Gaeta’s going to prove this was the wrong decision to make.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Mutiny = Airlock. Does Gaeta survive this episode? I can not see Adama letting him live after this.
January 30th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
All I have to say is Hot Dog is the man and maybe that is where he got his scratching from
January 30th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
hey guys another great epi and cant wate for the next. please see “Ellen…What about Ellen?” under “sometimes a great notion.”
January 30th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Woo! BSG ftw!
January 30th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Matt, if it really is the Beings of Light, how long until we see Count Ibis?
You know, sometimes I wonder why the heck I watch this show. Now I have enjoyed the last two episodes, but I do have something to say about BSG.
I only started watching this show because I was literally bombarded with an endless string of commercials for BSG while watching Stargate. After around the fiftieth time of hearing some overly melodramatic line I figured, ok, the British guy sounds and looks cool, maybe I should check this show out. I came in at the Pegasus 3 parter and became interested. I looked up what had happened, got a hang of the story, and got into it. I was really getting into the show until the One Year Later jump in the second season finale. But then season 3 got me back into the show. Then came season four.
The fourth season (the first half) felt like they jumped from idea to idea with no transition or thought. Romo Lampkin went from best new character to a waste of time. Baltar went from the smartest person in the universe and asocio-political manifesto writing hero of the people to messiah in an instant, with no transition or anything. The Four of the Final Five dragged, felt cliched, and made me lose interest in some of my favorite characters (Anders, Tyrol). Tigh hooked up with Caprica Six? Still doesn’t make sense to me. The Cylons suddenly decided to get rid of reincarnation, despite the fact that they would die out since they can’t reproduce. I still don’t get why Athena shot Natalie. And don’t get me started on Starbuck.
Now, here’s the thing about the show. Even though the first half of this season approached near shark-jumping potential, I still watch BSG. I mean, aside from a few characters (Helo, Anders, Tyrol, and especially Baltar, he rules), I can’t stand most of the leads. Starbuck annoys the heck out of me, Lee is the most undefined, role changing character I’ve ever seen, and Roslyn is, well, uninspiring. I mean, I like the actors, they’ve been great when I’ve seen them in other stuff, but the characters are just bad. Yet, I still watch the show. Why?
This show is addictive. Like cheap heroin addictive. Regardless of whether or not I like the characters or the episode, I keep coming back because I want to know what happens. BSG has a way of getting under my skin; I don’t just want to know what happens, I have to know. So I am always hoping the show will be good. I’m rooting for it every week. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
And as for this episode, not bad. I’ve got to say, the second half of the season has really been a step up. I’ve got some views and theories I’ve got to share, each character specific.
First off, Gaeta. Sorry Nat, but he has never done anything for me. First he was uninteresting, now he’s the evilest character on the show. I do not like Starbuck, but I was rooting for her to knock his head off at their battle of wits. He’s finally interesting, but he’s become the one person I want to see die in a horrifying manner more than anyone else on the show. Props to the actor for pulling off that kind of smarmyness.
But then there’s Zarek. Despite collaborating with Gaeta, I can’t help but thing Zarek’s right. I mean, seriously, what the heck is Lee’s job? He’s moving from office to office faster than the Flash. Baltar was right last season, would Roslyn or Adama let anyone who wasn’t named Roslyn or Adama run things? They are dictators. Good job with democracy. They have truly abused their power. Granted, Zarek may be making some bad calls, but every call he makes seems justified. And here’s the thing, he’s smart. He knows politics, he knows the underbelly of the fleet, something Roslyn doesn’t know, as we saw in Dirty Hands last season. Here’s hoping he ditches Gaeta and actually takes power.
Now for the Chief and Nicky, and why the retcon may be the dumbest thing I’ve seen on this show. I get why the did it, they want to make Tyrol feel alienated. They’re stressing that he’s identifying himself more as a Cylon then anything else. What’s his last real tie to humans? Nicky. Get rid of the baby, you’ve got a full Cylon Chief. However, here’s the problem with the retcon. RDM has said since the Watchtower Four reveal that they scattered clues as to the Chief and others being Cylons all throughout season 3. So they knew he was going to be a Cylon from the start of the season. Why not get rid of Nicky then? Why have the psycho lady Tory go through all the trouble of saving Nicky from being airlocked if there wasn’t a bit of importance to him? They had one and a half seasons to get rid of the kid, but they didn’t, so this retcon just screams cop out to me. That said, it really sucks to see the Chief so close with the Cylons now. I mean, Cylon or not, he has a general bond with everyone on Galactica.
And on the subject of the Cylons, I’ve got to say, the entire destruction of the Hub is stupid and makes no sense. Now, hear me out. The Hub is not the only source of Cylon resurrection. There is the Cylon home world. They have had resurrection down long before the Hub or resurrection ships. So in no way are Cylons free from resurrection. Secondly, why would the Cylons doom themselves as a race. Ok, we know human/Cylon hybrids can exist, and this was even before we learned Significant Seven/Final Five hybrids can exist. so, if Cylon’s can’t reproduce on their own, and the only offspring they’d get would be made from the Significant Seven, that would be a pretty weak genepool, and eventually either cause birth defects or eliminate all the Cylon blood. Essentially by destroying resurrection, they would destroy themselves. I mean, why create resurrectable models if it was going to be a problem?
Now for my Baltar theory. I am sticking firm to my belief that Baltar is Christ, or at the very least the Cylon Christ. I am not exactly a very religious man, my knowledge of the New Testament is pretty thin. So being able to identify all the Jesus references they’ve used for Baltar just shows how much they’re trying to stress that comparison. There’s been Jesus and the Moneylenders (Gaius’s raid on the temple), the monotheistic belief, his persecuted followers, and until recently, his general physical appearance. Even in this episode, they still put forth the comparisons. He may be railing against God, but his words really seemed similar to Jesus’s words on the Cross: “Father, why have you forsaken me?” We know there is something supernatural going on in the BSG world, and I definitely thing the Head 6s/Leobons/etc are really messengers from higher beings. If the Lords of Kobol were truly real, and all evidence suggests they are, then the Cylon god must be real. The Temple of the Five, the comparisons between the God and the lost lord of Kobol, etc. And here’s the thing, has Baltar’s message caught on with the Cylons? No. But it has caught on with the Fleet. Similar to how Jesus attracted some followers from the Jewish faith, but his teachings really caught hold among non-Jews. Oh, and let’s not forget the Hybrid referred to Baltar as “The Chosen One.” Cylon/possibly humans as well Messiah? Oh, definitely.
Then there’s Starbuck. You know, I am not claiming to have a fully formed theory about her, because, well, this is a tricky one. She died. We know she died. Or at least ended up in a near death situation. Now, I’m sticking firm to my belief that Kara is the “Harbinger of Death” as the Hybrid called her. For one thing, she’s the best Viper pilot, and had to be thrown out of a killing spree in the miniseries to reconnect with the fleet. She’s good at killing, and has no qualms about it. Also, she has a strong connection to Aurora, the goddess of the dawn. Now, I am no expert on Greek mythology, but I do see a connection in the idea of the dawn. Dawn, morning. Hmm, who’s the morningSTAR? Lucifer/Satan/The Devil. I think that they are setting Kara up as the Antichrist to Baltar’s Christ. Oh, and remember how Adama put the Aurora figurine at the prow of his model ship? In Greek mythology Charon the Boatman ferried people across the River Styx into the afterlife. If Kara is Aurora then she might just be leading everyone to the afterlife herself. And who knows, since she led them to earth, things are looking pretty grim and civil war-y in the Fleet. Maybe she will in fact lead the human race to its end.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:37 am
I think that the Cally thing would have fit in better if it weren’t for the fact that she was freaking out that her husband was a Cylon and that her child was a hybrid. Now, what if it were something like after she saw Tory w/ Chief, she asked for the paternity test. Then she finds out they are Cylons and she dies before she finds out the results. That would have fit in better
January 31st, 2009 at 1:24 am
To answer your questions, Matt and Nat, I don’t think either of them (Starbuck and Baltar) are beings of light/gods/whatever. I think Kara Thrace is a human (or hybrid, but obviously not full cylon) whos sole purpose was to let people know that it’s really ok to die. I think Baltar is just a human being who got lucky and was saved by Caprica Six (recall she said “get down!” and threw him to the ground. Obviously, he was no longer at risk from shrapnel, whereas Caprica Six was. That’s the only reason why she died, as the shockwave didn’t seem all that powerful – they were probably far enough away for it to have lost significant power).
That’s my take. I’m sticking with my uber theory.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:42 pm
The decylonization of Nicky would be more of a shock or problem if I hadn’t been listening to RDM’s podcasts/commentaries. RDM has said they sort of painted themselves into a corner with Nicky as he appeared before they decided that Tyrol was a Cylon. However, what this reveal did do was to take me out of the flow of the story and into thinking about the show as a show during the show. A risk of having such a strong element of mechanistic problem solving is losing the primal power of the mythos/story.
I disliked the Ellen character–not only because she was so coarse but because she started out such a stereotypic boozing broad–but I’m excited to think about how different she might be from her previous self. She might have a full understanding of the FF back story–giving them a fast way to reveal that. They actually set this up way back when she was discovered–there was the whole mystery of her not being a passenger of record on the ship she escaped on. They left a few back doors like this in the storyline for several characters “just in case.”
The Final Five Cylons are not the same as the 12 Colonies Cylons. We assume they called themselves Cylon, although all we know for sure is that they are physically similar. As with the rest of BSG, you have to consider it might be a plot hole–but if Tigh had a completely different blood type than the rest of humanity, you’d think it would have come up in the course of his service. Plus, the Final Five seem to have evolved a resistance to the virus that was fatal to the 12 Colony Cylons implying they’d evolved along similar lines as the humans. I tend to think of Tigh as being sort of a hybrid human/Cylon–making his and Six’s baby a bookend to Hera. Hera is human/Cylon, this baby is Final Five/Cylon. So, a child of the two would be a mix of all concerned. Assuming the baby comes to term.
Something RDM keeps saying is that the fleet is the last of humanity “as far as they know.” I wonder if they’ll meet up with other humans in Daybreak–possibly from other iterations or from ships thought lost.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:37 pm
My theory regarding the Fianl is that they are akin to the Elves in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. I know it’s a bit out there, but I wanted to say it on this board as well. If you are familiar w/those books, which I assume you are since Hobbit lovers also seem to love scifi
, but you know that the elves left humanity because they were no longer needed; that as a race they had to aquiesce to the younger race: humans, hobbits, etc.. However, the elves always had a god like quality to them; they were immortal; unless killed in battle; they had an ethereal look to them and their king had been part of the end and beginning of the saga of the ring. He was the weakness of man, when the king took the ring for his own, and was subsequently destroyed by it. In that respect the observations of the cylons, particularly Sharon, and Head 6–Sharon: maybe you don’t deserve to live? Home Part I
Head 6: Humans are masteres of self-destruction.
Now I’m not saying that the cylons are akin to the elves, but I think the Final 5 are, and that somehow Baltar and Starbuck are guardians of some kind; much as the elves were to the people of Middle Earth.
The fascinating part of all this is how beautiful and how flawed humanity is, as seen by the diversity of the Final 5, and Baltar and Starbuck.
Here’s what I mean:
Anders: good guy, jock, hero, leader of the rebellion on NC, brave, loyal-confused, not insecure
Tigh: loyal, screwed up drunk, leader of the rebellion on NC, killed his beloved Ellen for her traitorous ways, brave, insecure–now secure
Tyrol: loyal, good man, bad luck w/the ladies, leader of the rebellion on NC, loyal, brave, secure–now insecure
Tory: was loyal, who knows what’s up w/her these days, part of the rebellion on NC, found out she was a FF, and completely separated herself from her human life. She made her choice–to be loyal to herself
Ellen: loyal to Tigh, she slept w/Cavil for him, and essentially betrayed humanity for him, did she really sleep around? Either way, her loyalty to Tigh, unwielding, albeit in her own crazy way.
Starbuck: Steadfastly Loyal to Adama and Lee, to the cause of earth, captured by Leoben on NC, died and came back, uncertain of what she is, still gutsy, slept around, likes her liquor, defies authority, spent a lot of time in the brig, maverick and most gifted pilot
Baltar: a lot like Tory: loyal to himself, captured by the cylons, weak and cowardly of character as a result of his being a narcissist, and guilt over the knowledge that because of his gluttonous ways (part of the 7 sins coincidentally), too many women, vanity, greed, he destroyed his own race. However, he is undeniably a genius that represents the innovation of our race.
Thoughts?
A
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Okay, I haven’t read all of the comments here but I would like to throw my two cents in.
In the last two episodes we have had a HUGE contrast in reactions to the final breaking point that Earth gave the fleet.
On one hand you have people like Roslin and Dee who turned to grief and sorrow and basically gave up on everything.
Then you have people like Gaeta and Zarek who turned to anger and hatred and decided that revenge was the best course of action.
This story has finally reached it’s turning point now and I truly believe it is at the low ebb of the story. In a movie with three acts, you always close the second act with the characters in the worst possible circumstances because you want to have the rousing finale. Now many of you whom I have spoken to know my feelings on this when it comes to BSG: “THERE ARE NO HAPPY ENDINGS IN BATTLESTAR GALACTICA!!!”
However, there has to be someplace for this to go and I think from this point out we are going to see the struggle back to salvation for the humans AND Cylons of the rag tag fleet.
Character predictions: (No Matt, I have NOT looked into the Crystal Ball for this. It’s all just a hunch!)
GAETA- He will rejoin his lost leg in the afterlife sooner rather than later. He will also do it by turning on Zarek because he will refuse to kill the old man.
ZAREK- I think he is finally going to get what’s been coming to him for a long time and I have a sneaky suspicion that Gaeta might be the one to do it.
GAGE AND VEREEN- Oh yeah, I cannot wait for these two frak heads to get tossed out an airlock.
LEE- I think that in the next 2-3 Episodes he is going to finally step up and take his rightful place as leader.
ROMO (MUTHA FRAKKIN) LAMPKIN- I have no idea what he will be doing in the next episode, but it will be all the better just for his presence in it.
That’s my story and I’m stickin to it mates!
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:34 am
check this out…
this is mine…