BSGcast 4.18 – “Deadlock”
This week’s episode featured a stellar performance from Michael Hogan during the plot about Tigh and Six’s baby in the wake of Ellen’s return, and curious side-plots about Baltar’s Harem and Galactica’s paint drying… yet we couldn’t help but feel like this episode came up short on actual plot. Compared to “No Exit” last week, virtually any episode would feel like it’s standing still, but with only 4 episodes left and SO much more to be explained, by the end of “Deadlock” we were both pretty underwhelmed.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:51 am
Tigh problaby could change the chiefs mind about leaving the fleet if he know how much Galactica needs them..
February 21st, 2009 at 9:54 am
Am i the only one thinking bout a “Helter SKelter-ish” end to all this? In the final battle, the cylos finish the job, destroying all the humans except for Baltar’s Cult. But at the Cylons also had very heavy losses inflcited upon them, leaving them unable to lead somehow. Baltar comes in and has this big ol cylon- human frak fest hwne its all over. And there “Baltar Skaltar” in a nutshell.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:16 am
Great episode. Poor Caprica Six and Tigh. I loved the scene with Bill and Saul at the end. “…His name was Liam”. very touching.
“It’s already happened hasn’t it.” So cylons are running CAP with the colonials. That is so cool. And they are just walking around Galactica like its nothing. More and more humans and cylons are starting to blend. nice. As my friend would say, “We are all frackin cylons aren’t we”. Looks like the basestar is nearly finished repairing itself.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:43 am
Terrible Episode. Possibly the worst of the whole series.
After the heights of “No Exit”, only to come crashing down to Earth (in terms of quality) with this ridiculous Soap Opera of an episode is really a shame.
A significant portion of the series was spent building up the Final Five as something special and cool. Having Ellen behave like something out of “Days of Our Lives” and having the Cylon baby die is really not the best use of the last five hours of BSG episodes left. Think of what they could have used this episode for: explaining Head Six or Head Baltar, What life was like on Earth just before the destruction of the 13th Tribe, whether the Final Five new Kara from before, The 13th Tribes escape from Kobol, The development of the Centurions on Earth, a Flashback to the Final Five’s days with the Caprica Centurions before Cavil’s betrayal.
In other words, with only 5 episodes left, this treading water episode indicates to me that Ron Moore really doesn’t want to delve into the cool details of the Cylons.
I thought Head Six had left for good in Season 4.0. Why did she return?
This episode also seemed like a low-budget episode. All I can say is that the 3-hour finale had better be pretty damn spectacular
Bottom-line, I hated this episode. I really hope they recover for the next one, but it seems that it’s just going to be the trial of Boomer. Which is disappointing considering how many questions have to be answered.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:55 am
Also, that “the Baby died without love” was such an eye rolling plot-point that my eyes rolled out of my head, down the stairs and into the vent.
I haven’t really liked the Jane Espenson episodes. The Hub had some really poorly written moments like the hallucinations with Elosha and Roslin’s insane reaction and need to rescue Baltar, Baltar’s heated religious speech etc etc.
It doesn’t seem like “Caprica” the series will last very long.
February 21st, 2009 at 11:35 am
I was also very disappointed with this episode. They made such a cool Ellen in “No Exit” and completely destroyed her with this one! My thoughts exactly! Just like a cheap Soap Opera
February 21st, 2009 at 12:45 pm
I felt like my initial reaction to this episode may have been too harsh but after reading these few comments and EW’s review I guess it is not just me that was displeased. There are only five episodes left and it gets wasted with this filler episode.
My Bad moments
-Adama checking out the ship too many times without anything new to add each time he looks. Throw in some dialogue maybe.
-Adama’s bathroom humor seemed out of character.
-Baltar’s character has been ruined since the end of season 3. Not much going on. The cult storyline rarely is interesting. He could be doing so much more (politics, part of Zarek’s rebellion, scientist learning about earth cylons) but it seems the writers don’t have a good place for him. Him and Caprica six had a long history but after the trial they never interact or mention each other again. She’s with someone else and got pregnant so how about they visit and what are their true feelings for each other? For exactly 1 minute it looked like he might take his place as a scientist again when they found the remains of the earth cylons and he had his lab coat on again – but then he’s back as cult leader.
-Anyone else roll their eyes when the mom said the kid was named after his father? I thought to myself, they can’t be serious about gauis finding out he has a kid – strait out of a soap opera. I suppose the kid wasn’t but what a bad and unnessesary moment.
-Starbuck – we go to her at Joe’s bar (which joe’s bar I always thought was a bad idea, where does he get all the alcohol, is it fermented algae? ) She has one line and then gone. It may be set up for next week but why not put it in next weeks episode where they might be some payoff for that scene?
-There was no great storyline that I felt invested in or cared about. It felt like the writers of a soap opera took over writing duties for an episode.
-Anders-we see him for two seconds with his brain going wild. Again it might be set up but since there was no pay off it just was another random scene that didn’t fit.
-The Final five storyline is not interesting now that we know who they are and their backstory.
-The idea that love can keep babies alive and liam died because there wasn’t enough love was not credible. I was more curious to see how the baby fit into the plan. Like Nicki the writers may have put themselves in a corner and wanted to keep Hera special. I never did like the Saul and Caprica storyline – seemed our of character for both of them.
Not as bad as Black Market but because of the importance of there only being 5 episodes left – I would put this on par with Black Market. Please let the last four be the best episodes ever. Maybe this is the valley before we get to the mountain top.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I loved the return of Head Six, thought that it was interesting to see her wearing more angelic looking clothing, as well as the fact that while we the audience have not seen her in some time, Baltar did not miss a beat. I think he’s been seeing her the whole time and for some reason RDM decided that he would shield her from the audience.
Other than that, I thought this episode was for sure the worst of the final ten. They reverted Ellen too much back to her old character. While I like the fact that in No Exit she had some aspects of her personality from before, we really did not see the “enlightened” Ellen in this episode. Rather she was just vindictive, and it really did not add anything to the plot.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
this episode should be retitled “Deadbolt”, as in lock it up and don’t let it out again.
While there were a few k00l moments, I kept thinking to myself- this seems like it should be a hidden easter egg episode when season 4.5 dvdz hit the shelves.
Adama watching the cylon goo dry- lame and boring.
6 losing her baby, so was it a lack of love (boring) or the fight she was in?
I felt that most of the ’story’ from this episode could have been jam packed in to 10 minutes, a boring 10 minutes at that.
I hope that the show does not jump the shark before the end….
I NEVER thought I would type that but this weeks episode was the absolute WORST ever in the series.
cannot await the BSGCAST video.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Definitely a weaker episode than the last few that were just mind blowing. I’m just hoping it’s a setup for more greatness to come. We need Anders back. The final 5 have been so built up that it’s a let down to have only four of them in a room. I loved Adama’s reaction to Boomer. Great performances from Michael Hogan and Edward James Almos, as always. I love that the two friends can now joke about the fact that Tigh is a cylon.
Did anyone else notice Bear McCreary as one of the background extras in Joe’s Bar?
February 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pm
best line of the episode…
Hot Dog: “How many dead chicks are out there?”
February 21st, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Really sucked how they undid all the build up from “No Exit”, esp. with Ellen. I was hoping the booze hound flouzy was part of Cavil’s memory planting.
The only slightly interesting bit was the possible Anders/Liam connection: In No Exit, the baby started to kick right around the time Anders went brain-dead, and here, Anders came back when the baby died. So did Anders download into Liam till his brain healed, or did Liam download into Anders when he, Liam, died?
February 21st, 2009 at 3:58 pm
A thought,
The recent head-six does not have to be the previous head-six. The head-balter/baltars don’t have to be allied with the head-six/sixes. The struggle for control of mankinds destiny by the head-charaters does nt have to be linear or simple.
Ellen degenerated to acting as she did before because she was among humans. Ellen was superior in mind and action on the baseship because she was the mother. Do you actually think that your mother behaved infront of you the way she behaves infront of her peers?
Baltar and guns from Adama just goes to show you how Adama has lost it. He sees the human cylon war about to happen again and he is resigned to it. The father of the humans inon the bottle and waiting for the family to implode. The mother of the humans (roslyn) is now an absentee mother. With the parents gone, the children go wild.
This experiment in creators and creations is going the way it always goes. This is not a reimagined BSG, this is a reimagined Frankenstein.
The LOK, the humans, the FF and eventualy the skin-job cylons are ready to become gods (creator entities) and so the cycle returns.
How the end plays out is what we are discussing. That it ends badly is a given since, what happenned before will happen again.
For those who remember the old earth, there was this punk rocker known as johnny rotten. He ended a concert by saying (paraphase) “Have you ever felt you’ve been cheated”. Well RDM has pulled off the trick. The Sex Pistols were a fabricated group just as the Monkees before them. That has happenned before and will happen again.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:05 pm
This episode could have been called “Show me what love is”. The love of Adama for his ship, the love of Ellen (who is still acting like a bitch by the way), the love of Caprica for Tigh, the love of Tigh for both Ellen and Caprica. But we only got to see true love at the end. Despite everything, we saw in the dying minutes of the show what love is: a friend comforting another friend, in their case I would dare to say brothers, even though that friend is seen by many as the enemy. Up until last night, my two favorite characters on the show were Tigh and Starbuck, but now I have to admit that Tigh has taken the lead. What a great performance by Michael Hogan.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Wow! What a great twist from RDM! They have brought everyone back to form.
Ellen- She is back to being a ruthless bitch just not a drunken dingy one now.
Roslin- Here she is back talking to Six and asking her if her baby is “important”. Once again she is acting like a President and not a human.
Tigh- Talk about character evolution!!! He has gone from being a hard ass with his entire humanity living in a bottle of Ambrosia and now his pain is so heart wrenching it’s terrible. The end with Bill and Saul was a touching as anything.
Tori- She’s an evil conniving bitch who needs a quick trip out an airlock.
Baltar- He’s back to being a weasel.
Adama- Going downhill fast
THE ENDING- I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again “This will all end in tears”
February 21st, 2009 at 5:14 pm
… and can somebody tell me how the frack knew Boomer to find the fleet? Where is the fleet actually?
February 21st, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Wow, a lot of fleck RDM is getting for this episode huh, well not to surprising considering that this episode was badly written and my heart went to all the actors who had to play their part in this really one of the weakest episodes in the whole season. Ellen disappointed me with her old behavior patters which begs the question just how much did Cavil changed the final five personalities or didn’t. Tory is still the one of the final five who seems the least important of them but I trust RDM to change our mind about her. Galen is…well…being Galen always the angry one and always rash in his decisions. But Saul was the one shinning beacon of light in all of them seeing how Ellen was behaving vindictive and he know right away what was she doing and knowing how important it is for them to and the rebel cylons to stay with the fleet and not just ignore what Anders was shouting at him at the end of the last episode which made me think why Anders said to him that this is all happening again which made me think that maybe the final five were not the only survivors from the earth holocaust and maybe they were apart of a fleet to at some distant past. Another thing that keeps bugging is what happened to he earth centurion cylons, did they perish with humanoid cylons as well which seems very unlikely to me since the centurions are not afraid of death and would walk into with no second thought but they are not stupid to actually destroy their own race in the process. Did they chased the final five throughout space?, did they leave to some unknown part of the galaxy?
Karma came to my mind when seeing caprica six losing her baby because as you all remember how she snapped that little baby’s neck way back on caprica and as soon as she came into the screen walking the way she did i turned and said to my wife that she will lose the baby. So now i started thinking that maybe Ellen did all this to actually have caprica six lose that baby on purpose because it was distracting the other cylons to the importance of Hera and how the cylon have to integrate them selves into the humans if they wish to brake the cycle since the final five made sure they[humanoid cylons] wont be able reproduce between themselves because they wanted to make sure that the human and the cylons will finally be one specie and not two so the whole Ellen trying to make them leave with the rebel cylons seemed to me like just another ruse on Ellen’s part because the whole point is not to have earth happen again, right?
one more thing, i really liked how the other cylons made a memorial wall of their dead brothers and sisters on Galactica and not on their baseship which made me ask if they see Galactica as their home and not the baseship. Adama’s reaction to the cylon memorial wall when he saw it was really dead on.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:22 pm
I think the pills Adama is taking are anti-depressants maybe the whole ordeal of the past 4 years are taking their toll on the old man. Rayn_keeton I fully agree with you on the ending that it would all end in tears.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Okay so it wasn’t just me. It felt like total filler.
I was curious to see how much cylon Ellen was like the Ellen we knew when we thought she was human. Good idea, hideous execution. I expected her to still be sexy, but I was surprised that she still wanted to drink her face off. The final five are supposed to be special in some way aren’t they? How please? I’m not seeing it. The way we saw Ellen last week was cool. This eps Ellen not so much.
Cool things:
Roslyn’s look when Bill handed Ellen his hip flask
Bill comforting Tigh with the loss of Liam
Hotdog’s “how many dead chicks are there?”
Reapperance of head six
“My grandpa was a belt sander”
WTF things
Bill staring at/stroking the ship (reminded me of the first Star Trek movie **shivers**)
Baltar’s return to his flock
Roslyn’s conversation with Caprica six; Roslyn is rarely that stupid — totally out of character
Setups:
Anders – getting ready to pop those eyes open.
Kara – getting ready to play that piano and have a flashback about her dad
Hera – the new herald of the future of cylon human relations
Tyrol – Boomer or Tori – how’s a toaster to decide?
Boomer – Going on trial
Lee- Getting ready to defend Boomer
Bill Adama – Getting ready for cirrhosis
Roslyn & Adama – holding each others hair back
Sorry about that last one, couldn’t resist.
Totally treading water. All of that was to give the Cylons a reason to stick with the fleet. The idea that they could leave because they could reproduce on their own seemed thin too. They are basing this on one pregnancy?
Will the resurrection ship rebuild also become a possibility as they realize that they can’t count on organic reproduction? Will this kill the delicate alliance?
February 21st, 2009 at 5:44 pm
One other beef with the whole “all you need is love” for babies to survive storyline – Did Helo still love Sharon after he found out she was a cylon on Caprica? He left her as soon as he found out and when they met up again – he shot her. Shouldn’t Hera have died when he lost that lovin’ feeling?
I would have liked liam to be born but killed later to give symmetry to the miniseries where Caprica killed the human baby in the market. Does she have the right to be mad since she did that to someone else. Is is karma. Would it be punishment by God for what she did to the colonies?
February 21st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
1) The last scene was way too powerful. I really felt for Tigh.
2) Hate Ellen. I thought she had been reborn in a more literal sense, and it seemed so. But she’s her old self… like many of you I also think that was stupid in part of the writers. I also didn’t like how they handled the mutiny, The Oath was SO good and it was resolved so cheaply…
3) Do yo people think that: this “cycle thingy” will restart when we reach the end of the season, or that this is the first time people from the previous cycle (the final five) managed to reach people from the next one and that will make things better?
4) Virtual Six’s back, yay! perhaps baltar will now stop being a stupid weasel and start being a cool weasel again.
@ Brad: that’s actually pretty good thinking (even if I don’t believe it)
February 21st, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I felt like my reaction to this episode may have been too real harsh there was a reason behind this epiosde….. the reason was to show how things may be if human and cylon and if they work together…… these few comments make this epiode sound like woman king… they need 2 show this epiosde 4 a few reasons……
1- adam in the being of the show hated the idea of a computer networking systems…. but since over the years with the help of athena and tigh he has allowed himself to relase that there is no other choice.
2- Caprica Six lost her optuinate 2 hve kids when she 1st died on caprica and that to shows her that the only way 2 hve kids in the future is to kidnap HERA.
3- to see that adama and tie style are frineds STILL after the tigh is a cylon.
4- to get Ellen Tigh back 2 her old self and also to show that Ellen Tigh has power over the final 5
5- to get the show back 2 what it the show was all about the people than the specal effects.
the only thing bad bout this epiode is that baltar is siding with the humans witch is a joke when he is in love with a cylon, one point that baltar was a Cylon sympathizers, his relgion is a verson of the cylon relgion of 1 god and all that, has sleeped with 2 cylons and hving vesons of a six model….. but with the storyline that baltar relgion get guns ( and i hope this dosnt sound prejudice) isnt a good idea… guns and relgion has never mixed….. but the storyline porbly going like that famous shoot out and massacre of a relgion years a go…. (sorry i cant rember the name of it… if any rembers it please tell me)
Starbuck She has one line and then gone. It may be set up for next week but y didnt joe say anything bout the pino and that it might be in her head and a refance to her father…. Anders-we see him for two seconds with his brain going wild…. tell us that he will be back and in the final 5…. episodes more explane how the fenal 5 are different from the othe cylons…
the baby fit into the plan. Like Nicki the writers may have put themselves in a corner and wanted to keep Hera special. I never did like the Saul and Caprica storyline – seemed our of character for both of them.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:20 pm
It was good to see Ellen is still the same old wheeling and dealing, conniving thing she always was when it came to Tigh! I found Starbuck’s comment interesting to Tyrol at the bar, that they were like looking at her parents making out–well at least someone besides Baltar was getting some this episode.
As for Tory–yes Tigh it was her dumb idea to split off from the fleet, and Ellen, well we knew she was doing exactly what she said she was doing, trying to make Tigh angry, not really caring about the consequences of her actions. It is exactly what she did on NC when she took that map to Cavil, right?
As for Anders, looks like he’s about to wake up, thank goodness! But I have to say that I miss Lee, and Helo, where have they been? Ellen finally said it outloud, that Hera is what the future should be, and she is right. Even Tigh says, human and human doesn’t work, cylon/cylon doesn’t work, they’re too pure! I don’t think it’s a matter of purity, it’s matter of learning from the past, and that cylon/human might be able to learn from their races destructive paths, but emotion, free will -this is what determines the path of a people and a race. Hopefully the new hope will be just that.
I also had forgotten how jealous Ellen was of Adama and Tigh’s relationship, and I loved how she called the 6, little girl–nicely done.
Is Boomer going on trial for shooting Adama?
I can’t believe she and Tyrol would get back together–that’s weird. I think that he is still so lost, and I don’t think rekindling a love w/Boomer who gave him so much pain, and connected him even more to Cally, is way too messed up. He only wants to leave, because like Tory, he feels alone, helpless, because not a part of the familly that he wants to be a part of–Galactica, and Cally and Nicky. So sad–I mean give me a break Tory’s, this is about the 13th Tribe, are you kidding me? She can’t even remember any of that, she just pulls that stuff out of her you know what, and manipulates Boomer and Caprica because they worship the 5. Tigh, as we saw, knows better!
Beautifully done by Adama and Tigh last night, and when Tigh went to see him at the end after Caprica lost the baby, that was so amazing. I had always thought that Kara and Lee were much like Roslin and Adama, but they are simply the next generation. Their bond, is the bond between Tigh and Adama–i’s almost like the are the same people, but Kara is female, and thus the relationship evolves sexually as well.
But I have written a lot about Kara and Lee, and Lee doesn’t care what Kara is, he just knows that he loves her and he can live w/out her, as we saw. Her death, actually gave him a rebirth as well; a rebirth that would not have happened had she lived. I have always felt throughout their ship she has always more desperately loved him and we have seen how she has always saved Lee no matter what, no matter when–so when she accidentally shot him, going to Anders was what she thought was best for him, not for her. I always thought that she would kill herself in a firefight if Lee died, and i don’t know if Tigh can last w/out Adama. Remember what happened last time? Now they’re closer than ever. I don’t think having Ellen would help, and maybe the baby would have, but that’s gone now too.
As for L/K, when they were having an affair he couldn’t leave Dee, because Kara had broken the trust, the loyalty, that they had had above their “sexual” relationship. We saw that in RII, but when he lost her, it was listening to Romo giving the speech to Caprica about the love of his life, that Lee realized that he needed to accept the love for her, instead of always fighting it. Dee also realized that Lee really did love Kara more than her, and there had never been a chance for her to be a part of his life—at least in the way she wanted to be. It was sad how seeing Lee react to Kara’s death, made her see the truth, and Lee as well. It even changed his ship w/his Dad–in the end for the best. I always remember when he says to his Dad after Kara shows up “If that were Zak who got off that ship, would we really care if he was a cylon or not?” The question of the hour, and so, so true.
Another moving moment was when Ellen went to Tigh’s side while Caprica was having problems w/the baby before it died. I think that cylon and cylon can’t make a baby, at least not one w/one of FF and one of their children, so to speak. I see it the same way as when brothers and sisters and cousins get together, like in olden times in the royal families? The baby is usually unable to be carried to full term, it is a sick or underdeveloped child or is born like the Prince Nicolas , who had hemophilia. Perhaps it points to even more how their races need to blend to complete the cycle.
I have to say it’s creepy seeing all of those models around, I mean how weird, right?
As for Baltar, I did not get the whole weapons thing, I was confused, any one have some clarity?
Also, Head 6 is back, and i love how she’s wearing a white strapless, less sexy looking dress.
I don’t know how they’re going to do this in 4 epis, but isn’t really going to be 6 hours left, instead of 4 due to the longer finales?
I still think they’re going to be looking for that other colony Anders was talking about while in his hybrid mode. But what about Cavil? I am still confused about those angels Anders was screaming about, but I have always loved, Head 6, and I loved Head Baltar as well.
I still do not think that Adama and Roslyn will make it to the end–I don’t know how, but they will die together. They have given up and Tigh, has been given a new lease on life–shockingly! But I don’t know if he can live w/out Bill; even w/the support of Ellen.
And a final thought that maybe the places Kara, Roslyn and Gina, Caprica and Sharon see iin the opera house is their new home, not earth that was. But when they were on Kobul looking at the constellations, was that really earth? I thought the 12 tribes never saw earth?
A
February 21st, 2009 at 6:23 pm
sorry do not read the las bit please i was trying to answar Pavlov’s God question….. the baby fit into the plan to show what caprica six must do in the future to get HERA…but has the PLAN goes the baby liam dosnt fit into the plan…..
but i bet that if the end of the series goes like this episode every one or most will go off one… i bet….. does any1 want 2 take up wages
but thisd might how kobol might hve bean b4 the 13 tribe (cylons) left and might show how the words all this has happpened before and will happen again, again again….. if cylons and humans friendship dont frak things up this time…. but the only thing will effect the cylce keep on going is John Cavil, boomer or sum gun toling human ( no pun from baltar relgion)
February 21st, 2009 at 6:32 pm
check out this interview with Jane Espenson about “Deadlock”
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-deadlock-jane-espenson.html
February 21st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Anyone else think that Hera is the highlander as there can be only one (child from a cylon), Nicky is now human, and Liam is dead before birth for no other reason than to emphasise Hera’s importance as the first human cylon hybrid.
Agree with all those that were dissapointed with the episode, since while most of the plot threads were handled well there was little plot progression on the cylon answers front
I personally thought that Hotdogs line was not the funnies but rather that goes to Baltar and his hope speech turning into promising them guns, I was surprised Adama gave him them after what happened to the nuke! (What has happened to the remaining radioactive material now there is no need for a cylon detector? btw) It seems that what Head 6 tells him he will get he does, its a shame that she cant rival Starbucks Cylon Grand Slam (Raider, Heavy Raider, Baseship & Planet) unless she tells him where to find a new home.
On the Baltar cult front anyone else think that Paula (?) is getting set up to be a Judas character for him and she seemed awfully happy with the guns he got.
I found the vote thing contrived and I definetely did not buy Tyrol voting to go especially since he has been getting involved with galactica again if they wanted a deadlock they should have used all 8 models present with 6s, Leobens and Tory voting to go, Tigh, Tyrol and Anders to stay with the 8s abstaining due to Athena, Helo and Hera leaving things up to Ellen, though it still would have been pointless.
Hopefully with only 2 episodes and the 3 part finale to go the pace will pick up soon the only serious plot progression aside from Bye Bye Liam we never knew you was the continued emphasis that humas and cylons need each other to survive.
It will also be interesting to see who Tigh stays with now that Liam is dead Caprica 6 or Ellen and did anyone else want a comment from Ellen along the lines of I should not be surprised you designed the 6s as a younger version of me.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:44 pm
First time poster, been with BSGCast since Crossroads. Too afraid to post.
I liked the episode very, very much. It felt very Battlestar, they way its always been – without the rush to resolve anything. Very self (as in the viewer) exploratory to me. May have been a bit pushy with the plot, but I didn’t notice.
What did you guys think of Adama’s face close ups in this episode. Very imagery. To me, they spoke that a dark side was taking over him.
Found it weird that nobody said anything back at Starbuck about the piano. Immagined? Head piano-guy? Ha ha ha.
Ellen – my new favourite character since “No Exit”.
Was it just me or was the camera trying to show Head Six in a different angle this time? More separate from Gauis, rather than part of him.
I wish they wouldn’t try to rush the show so much this season, it’s true that there’s a lot of questions to be answered, but I miss well paced episodes that make you reflect upon yourself. Listen to the voice in back of your mind with the off-show questions, it feels awesome.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Ugh.
This episode was EXTREMELY disappointing, especially since we’re so late in the game. Come on, Jane Espenson! What were you thinking? What we got with “DEADLOCK” was a sci-fi version of “Dynasty”. Absolute crap. Definitely a filler episode.
And I agree with some of the other comments, this will go down at the worst and most unnecessary episode of the series, along with “Black Market” and “The Woman King”. But this episode is actually WORSE since we’re so close to the end of the frakkin series! Is RDM kidding us with this crap?
Moments of the show that bugged me was:
~Adama staring at Galactica’s cracks more times than necessary. (Utterly time wasting scenes!)
~Every scene with Caprica and Ellen. (Absolute soap opera crap that was petty and insipid)
~Caprica Six “conveniently” losing her baby. (Because it wasn’t loved enough? Gimme a break!)
~We FINALLY get to see the FF together in the same room and one of them is in a coma. FRAK.
~Ellen is a boozing whino whore after all? What happened to that cool, calculating bad-ass chick in black from “No Exit”?
~Tyrol suddenly deciding to abandon ship. Really?
~Baltar and his biotches. Can’t we move on from that stagnant storyline already?!
All in all, I was extremely disappointed in “Deadlock”. Extremely. Let’s all hope BSG doesn’t “jump the shark” with the last four episodes. Let’s all hope they will dump the “cheese factor” and get back to writing jaw-dropping episodes that take the very breath out of us. Let’s all hope we will get that final gut-punch of satisfaction that comes from awesome exposition and closure.
We’re down to the wire here, folks. Will we *actually* get the finale we’ve been yearning for? I’m getting a wee bit nervous.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:59 pm
I can’t believe that with only five episodes left they waste one on this soap opera drivel! I guess they needed to get rid of yet another baby.
Yeah Head Six is back! I liked the dress that Head Six was wearing and Caprica’s tears. When Caprica is sad its really heart wrenching.
Of course Ellen is still a bitch. Tigh is her weakness as she is his and they get each other. But what a low double standard of a blow to imply that it was incest between Tigh and Caprica.
“but she is our child!”
What about her and (aside from everyone else she has had)UGH!…Cavel? And that is even creepier since he is supposedly made in the image of her father!
And what the hell?? How does Adama and Laura not know people are starving and killing each other for food?
Do the Cylons eat? They never seem worried about something as mundane as food. I mean we know they drink!
I think if the humans are going to survive they are going to have to grow the frack up and embrace the Cylons and all their technology.
February 21st, 2009 at 7:04 pm
CJ said: Also, that “the Baby died without love” was such an eye rolling plot-point that my eyes rolled out of my head, down the stairs and into the vent.
Absolute comedy, CJ! Hilarious. I couldn’t agree more.
February 21st, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Okay, I’m chiming in once more.
To: Rolling hard Six:
I agree with what you mentioned above about Roslin and Adama not knowing that people (especially children) are starving on Galactica and killing each other over algae! Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that they wouldn’t know or even care about something as serious as that!
And yeah, what’s up with the Cylons not really needing food? Then again, Boomer brought that plate of fruit to Ellen in “No Exit”. So I suppose they do need some sort of sustenance. Lastly, I don’t understand WHY Ellen is a boozehound, other than the fact that RDM likes to knock a few back even while doing his podcasts, so maybe that’s his way of indulging himself through these characters. I mean, Adama has turned into a fish! What’s up with that?
February 21st, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Hm I’m not the hugest fan of this episode. Ellen went from being this manipulative, slutty drunk always cheating on her husband and being a terrible influence on him to this warm, calm, cool, collected, cylon. And it was like as soon as she got back to the fleet. Wham the Galactica hussy is back!!! Don’t get me wrong I always thought she was funny, but the manipulation was tiresome and now it’s back. I figured she was just like that cause she couldn’t remember who she really was. But I guess it’s just the terrible influence they are on each other.
And I gotta say I know it’s not really part of the episode but damn that tory pisses me off. She is such a coward. She wants to run at the first sign of danger. Even though she spent years as the right hand of the president and one of the leaders of the resistance but ever since she found out she was a cylon she’s turned into a self serving coward. She murdered Kalley as soon as she realized Kalley knew she they were all cylons. Then when the mutany happened she wanted to jump immediatley. Now she wants to split from the humans because there’s some tension? She’s such a coward that’s all I gotta say.
Ok Tory bashing aside. The rest of this episode just couldn’t keep up with the previous one. But on a positive note it is nice to get a sense of what life is now like for the fleet. 2’s, 6’s and 8’s wandering around everywhere you go. They even have thier own wall to honor their dearly departed and the ship is being held together with cylon bio goo. It fits with the theme that they are supposed to come together.
My heart completley went out to Caprica, Tigh and thier baby. So sad.
I have a feeling that next weeks episode is going to be good. Obviously Anders is back, as was shown on the brain wave moniter at the end of the episode. I can’t wait to see whats going to happen.
February 21st, 2009 at 7:48 pm
My buddy and I had a lot of fun watching this episode. It was funny at times, and had some good performances. However, I KNEW people were going to blast it after the greatness of the last four. It did feel like a filler episode and it moved slow, but I thought it was well worth watching. Will I ever watch it again? Maybe… but I won’t feel inspired to do it any time soon.
I have no problem with Ellen’s character going from cold to hot. Her and Saul have a poisonous relationship, and when she is around him, it brings out the best and worst in her. Having been in such a relationship before, the attraction to the other person is so strong that it makes you do things you never would otherwise. She NEEDS Saul. She will do anything to keep him.
I also really enjoyed Baltar’s story and how he is developing into someone who finds doing good deeds as rewarding as doing selfish deeds. Sure, the whole episode had a strange beat to it, but then Espenson seems to always write this way.
As for Caprica losing her baby… I called that the second Ellen found out about it. Her reaction made me think she would find a way to kill it.
February 21st, 2009 at 8:04 pm
A decent episode. A little strange regarding pacing though-I mean they crammed so much stuff into last week’s episode and then this week we had very few revelations. Just a little surprised we didn’t find out more.
I am intrigued by the reappearance of Head 6, in the deleted scenes of season 4 she says she is leaving because Baltar no longer needs her, then the second his leadership within the god-group is questioned-she returns. I am thinking hard about the significance.
Actually I am also a little surprised that Baltar hasn’t had more to say about Caprica 6 and Tigh since he was with her alot on Caprica and again on New Caprica. The Tigh-Six baby looks like a pointless story filler now-something they brought in in season 4 and they are ditching in season four with the baby’s death.
Also very much looking forward to the Chief having to off his former wife Tori for killing Cally (Although If offered the choice I would obviously trade in Cally for Tori anyday of the week).
Line of the episode?
Baltar “Well I’m Honoured………….to be have the same name as his father”
February 21st, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I don’t think Caprica’s baby was a filler deal at all. That story element was created to demonstrate THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HERA.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:06 pm
You know, I’m surprised that Ellen wasn’t more understanding with Tigh’s situation. I mean, can’t she put herself in his position for one frakking moment and say, “He thought I was dead and gone, thought I was human and was never going to come back. If I were in that position, I would probably try to move on too.” But no, Ellen Tigh had to be the old “human” Ellen.
Now, I know people are thinking that the whole “No love killed the baby” thing. But you have to think about things like this: The Cylons paired Helo and Athena up in order to see if the reason why the Cylons couldn’t interbreed was because of love. Hera was conceived, was “born” and continues to live. To the Cylons, Hera is proof that in order for them to be able to procreate, they need to love one another. So, it’s possible that they believe that if one Cylon didn’t love the other while the female was pregnant, that it would result in the death of the infant. Unfortunately, Caprica did not point out the fact that she had pains earlier, indicating something was wrong.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:10 pm
I want to forget everything about this episode as fast as I can. It started with nothing and ended with less. I don’t care that Caprica’s baby died. Liam wouldn’t have been born before the end of the series anyway. Why waste an episode on an unborn life?
RDM needs to:
- Tell us why and how Kara came back
- Let us know if we will see anymore of the Cavils, Dorals and Simons. It better happen soon, too
- Give us the finale of the mystery of the Opera House
AND Tell us who the frak Daniel is.
But now something a little different,
I have a feeling, that the end of the series will see the deaths of two very key characters. I don’t think Laura Roslin will die from cancer. If cylon-human blood cured her, why did her cancer come back? (I never understood that, please explain if you want to reply) However, I do think that Roslin will die. I don’t want her to, but I think it is going to happen. And with her death we will also see the death of Adama because he “can’t live without her.”
They won’t be killed, they will simply die, but only after the fleet finds a new home, a safe-haven where humans and cylons will live together and become a truly blended race.
Why do I think this? I think that a BSG funeral is one thing that we haven’t seen in full form, yet. Yes, we saw the service for Cally, but that wasn’t enough. Roslin and Adama’s combined funeral would be the most beautiful scene this series could ever ask for. The pageantry would make Admrial Caine cry in her grave. (What comes to my mind is something on an even higher level than Amidala’s funeral in Star Wars Ep. III) Absolutely beautiful and terrible at the same time.
We might not even see them die. Remember the words ‘One year later…?” We might be in for a Five, Ten or Twenty-years-later jump once they make it to “New Earth.” It is likely that we will get a moment to breathe deep and say “We made it, again,” once they find salvation, but it will be stolen from us in a much polite-er way than in “Revelations.” I think “Twenty years later” might just do the trick.
I’m not expecting a happy ending, but I am expecting a spectacular ending. After yesterday’s episode, they better deliver on that expectation too. I read on someone’s post that the Finale will be three hours long???? I didn’t know that. Can someone tell me where something says that so I can be sure?
P.S.
TO: BSG
Get Better Soon. Literally.
-EdPaZu
February 21st, 2009 at 9:22 pm
EdPaZu – “If cylon-human blood cured her, why did her cancer come back? (I never understood that, please explain if you want to reply)” I believe it was Hera’s FETAL blood cells that cured her, or more accuratley sent her cancer into remission. There are no more hybrid fetal blood cells kickin around to cure her again.
I do totally agree that the ending should be spectacular whether or not it’s a happy ending. I hope it’s happy cause frak, they’ve been through so much but either way it better be the kick ass ending of all kick ass endings.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Well, to those who didn’t like the episode, frak you! Just kidding! We’re all friends here.
I don’t think this episode was filler at all, and was acting more as setup. Besides, what’s wrong with a little drama? You can’t just have shoot’em up action for 4 years, then it becomes a show for 16-25 year old guys…And we know how classey those kind of people are
Here are my thoughts on the episode:
(1) By having Tigh’s baby die, it sets up Hera as important again, since she’s been absent, I’m sure after this we’ll get some more Helo and Sharon action (I miss those guys!)
(2) With Baltar getting some guns I think he has one more chance to cause some trouble. I thought that was a great speech Balter gave. It makes me think that we’re going to see Baltar go back on his old ways. I knew he couldn’t be trusted.
(3) I know there are a lot of theories of Galactica getting destroyed at the end but I think that there’s a chance she may survive. Instead of breaking up, the falling apart of the ship was one of the ways RDM is getting Cylons and humans to work together.
(4) Anders’ not dead! So I’m sure we’ll get some sweet background from him coming up.
(5) I’m happy they found a way to get Boomer back on the ship. I’ve always felt bad for her character b/c she had no control over what she did when she shot Adama all the way back in Season 1. We haven’t really seen much of her so it’ll be interesting to see how she’s changed (or whether she’s just a spy for Cavil).
February 21st, 2009 at 9:34 pm
To EdPaZu: Great commentary! I agree with what you stated about two key characters dying. It may indeed be Roslin and Adama taking a dirt nap. How beautiful that would be.
However, after reading a recently posted interview with Tahmoh (”Helo”) Penikett and Mo Ryan of the Chicago Tribune, Helo and Athena apparently go out BIG. Maybe its just Helo, who knows. But wouldn’t it be interesting with the focus FINALLY back on Hera, that these two characters would fulfill the “semi-prophecy”that Starbuck mentioned to Lee:
“In order for children to reach their full potential, their parents have to die.”
What exactly will be Hera’s full potential? What will be her legacy? Will we get to flash forward in time a few years to see what difference she made? How truly important was the fact that she was the link between humans and cylons? Hmm? Only time and four more episodes will tell.
Hera is obviously a very pivotal person in this whole show, and since things are leaning heavily toward the “Yay! We’re blended, let us all hold hands and sing songs because we love each other” rhetoric, it’ll really be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Sorry for chiming in again, but I’m trying to get the bad taste that last night’s episode gave me, out of my mouth. Writing stuff out helps with my therapy.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Hi, I’ll keep this short. This ep. had some good one liners and maybe one good scene and the rest was crap. It’s all been explained before and it will be explained again.
ps. With so few episodes left I am not happy.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:30 pm
BTW, in the preview for next week, that bit where Stuckbuck approaches the girl and the piano, and when she goes to turn the little girl around, it becomes the dead body show found… It reminded me of the revelation behind the truth of Mother Bates from the original “Psycho”. Did anyone else have that thought or had that feeling?
February 21st, 2009 at 11:15 pm
You can always tell who the drama queens are by how much they use the word “crap” to describe their dislike for something.
February 22nd, 2009 at 12:00 am
First of all great comments from everyone. I must say I agree with a lot of what was said in the previous comments. Some great points, and it seems we are all on the same page (or nearly all) that this ep was mostly poor with some good parts, and generally not worthy of being placed in the last 5 eps of the series.
I agree most with CJ on this one. Great list of possible topics that could have been covered by this episode. Kobol, life on Earth, the Cylon Colony and the work of the Final Five there etc.
I feel this episode was entirely built around Tigh, and what a great performance from Hogan. Truly phenomenal acting. The highlight of the ep for me was Tigh’s embrace with Adama. That was priceless and one of the highlights of the entire series in fact.
I also agree with previous comments that this episode ruined some of the great work (writing) done in previous episodes, and ruined some of the characters.
Ellen – as has been said, the Final Cylon Ellen from No Exit was completely destroyed and replaced by Soap Opera Ellen.
Baltar – Baltar’s character has gone downhill ever since He That Believeth in me, when he prayed for that kid and was ready to die to save him. Considering Baltar was my favorite character and first choice for Final Cylon, and considering that I have always thought and still think that he is the key to the entire show’s story, I was very disappointed by his poor character development in S4.
As for Anders, I do think his death and revival is linked to the life of Caprica’s baby. He did mention in the last ep before he went brain dead that the “Angels” were going to help with the “miracle”. And we see Head Six appear for the first time in a long time in this very ep where Angels are mentioned.
The dominant feeling I had when watching this ep was “is that it?”. The ending was so abrupt and I had to scratch my head thinking…what did they really reveal? How has this ep really helped reveal more truth and advance the storyline? Besides the Anders-Liam connection, and the re-appearance of Head Six and her connection with Angels, and the death of Liam…there really was much in this ep.
Anyways, it wasnt as bad as Sine Qua Non in the first half of S4, it didnt destroy characters as badly as Sine Qua Non did with Romo Lampkin, but it sure came close.
This is NOT the type of eps we want to see in the last 5 eps of the series…there are way too many possible topics that can be covered, too many questions to be answered to mess it up like this.
3 out of 5 Top Gun Mugs for me for this ep. I had hoped I’d not have to give anything less than 5 stars for the rest of the eps. Up to now they all got 5 stars from me except A Disquiet that Follows my Soul, which got 4.
Lets pray next ep is not all about Boomber, cause I couldnt care less about that plot arc.
We need topics to cover Hera, Starbuck, Baltar, Earth, Kobol, Angels, Ressurection/Rebirth, and most of all, we need to really get a sense that the cycle is ending and that it’s about to start over.
If RDM doesnt clearly show us the end and re-start of the cycle, and get a collective “AHAAAAAAA” from all of us…then I’ll be disappointed beyond words.
Adalla
February 22nd, 2009 at 1:25 am
Ok this episode was good enough to watch all the way through, but I have to say, for it being at the end of the series, why all the slow drama? You have Galen last ep trying to fix the ship and giving Adama respect and this ep he just wants to leave. Ellen is turning stupid and a baby dies for lack of love? WTH?!~!!#%# I can say that Adama and Tigh at the end made my eyes water up a bit, but that doesnt redeem this episode. I can tell you later on in life, when I decide to watch all of them on DVD one after another, this will be one I skip.
February 22nd, 2009 at 1:38 am
Actually, I think that this is transition epi, and although it was disappointing in some ways, it got the hurdle of Ellen coming back to Galactica, and Caprica’s baby solved. We also have seen more of Tigh and Bill than ever, which i loved!
I liked the way Ellen was in this epi! The fact that she was back to her old ways, is perfect–she even says that she and Saul always had this crazy type of relationship. I don’t think it made it soapy, but it showed us what the FF are all about. It showed, again, how Cavils experiment failed, because the FF did not completely lose their identity, they just evolved into different people who had some of the same skills, etc.., that they had before they were frakked with by Cavil. The FF do not remember who they were, except for Ellen, and Tigh has bits and pieces, but that’s about it. I think the importance of free will, and choice are more important than ever, and that we now understand how the other models were rigged by Cavil, ie. Boomer.
It showed how Ellen, was and is Ellen, scientist, FF or not. I just watched Sacrifice, and Ellen’s behavior has never changed. It has always been an inablility to see the big picture, and to think only of herself and Tigh. For example:
Sacrifice: she runs out of the bathroom against Lee’s advice to tell the terrorists that she’s the XO’s wife, because it will help. She was always a snob and liked the good things in life (also seen in Black Market) w/the fruit in their quarters.
Exodus II: she did the same thing while stealing the map for Cavil, to save Tigh. As Anders said, it would have destroyed their entire plan, and the entire plan would be destroyed.
She knew her death was a valid decision by Saul.
I also believe that whole–we need “love” for procreation is the “child-like” naivete that Ellen brings up when she calls Caprica 6 “little girl”. It’s not literal, it’s part of the propaganda that was part of their programming when they were changed by Cavil. it’s wonderful how Ron and co. have given Caprica, and even Boomer this naivete, when it comes to hte power and glory of the FF, and in Caprica’s case; love and babies. I think that the 6 models have wanted to be human more than any of the other models, I really do. As for Boomer-she’s still bitter about Tyrol and NC, and Sharon. How calm and serene did she look while sleeping in the brig when Tyrol came by to look at her? It was almost like Ellen when she was sleeping and then woken by Cavil w/a drink.
AS for Roslyn’s treatment w/Hera’s blood–I believe it did not work this time, I’m not sure if that is correct. This is why she is using regular treatment this time around.
Finally, not to be weird, I think Ellen slept w/Anders, and that perhaps Ellen was who he wrote that song for, not Kara. I believed Kara was either a woman for whom he had unrequited love, or some kind of goddess, ie. a deity w/a temple so she was not actually a real person. I am thinking about it in the way that Apollo had priestesses who did all this stuff for him, I’m thinking of it in that way.
Irregardless, any other ideas about those Angels? I still don’t get how they saw Head people and only Baltar sees one now. That would mean that he’s more like the FF than anyone else, as they or some of them apparently saw the angels as well.
Ideas? So confusing!
A
February 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 am
Sorry to double post, but that innocence referred to above needs to be clarified: it means that when the FF created the eight models, they gave them the OTG, free will, and love. They thought this would keep them from making the same mistakes again, as they would be more human, and there would not be another war. However, Cavil used those “human” qualities, which made the 8 like the children Ellen calls them, to manipulate them so that it would make them easier to control. So instead of those qualities being good, they were used to do the psychotic bidding of Cavil. I believe this is why Caprica and all the OTG stuff and her belief that love is why they can procreate, dominates her words.
sorry! I had to clarify
A
PS : Romo was on Burn Notice–I think on Feb 12?
February 22nd, 2009 at 2:43 am
ugh, it’s hard to know what to say…
Ellen- needs to transfer to her real show, Desperate Housewives.
Cylon baby- Needs to transfer to it’s real show, Grey’s Anatomy.
Baltar- The second coming of Jesus- returns as a warrior king destroying all opposition.
Rosylin and Six or Tigh and Adama (though well acted) needs to transfer to it’s real show, Dr. Phil
Battlestar for me is sinking fast,
Soon I will be watching a show with less emotions and drama, like The Bachelor.
Obviously, I am not happy
February 22nd, 2009 at 2:55 am
Ryan here again,
I have read a lot of comments and I have to agree with one thing: While I think RDM did a good job of bringing his characters back to form (they were all becoming a little TOO noble for my taste) at the same time, when compared with No Exit, this episode was a real let down.
We went from finding out a lot of the secrets that the Cylons (FF) had known to a soap opera with contrived occurrences for audience reaction.
True, it was very powerful to watch Caprica and Saul lose their baby. I will be honest and say it made the water works think about coming on. At the same time, I wonder if RDM changed his mind while writing? He ret-conned Nicky out of being a Cylon hybrid and now he gets rid of the only other threat to Hera’s mystical destiny. Something smells rotten Ron, and it isn’t the old bones of Galactica here.
There were some cool things to pick out though.
TOP SCENE- The engine blast washing over the camera as the three Vipers escort Raptor 702 into the hangar.
TOP LINE- Hotdog: “How many dead chicks are out there???”
(He’s probably worried about Cally coming back and catching holy hell from her!)
WORST CHARACTER MOVE- To take Ellen from the matronly woman we saw last week and turn her back into the shallow bitch she was.
WORST SCENE- Ellen and Caprica in Tigh’s quarters. Total CBM (Cylon Bitch Move) she pulled. Really made all the work that went into her last week go right out the window.
Looking forward to next week though. We deserve some quality TV after this one. I hope to God (Yes, the one true loving Cylon God) that this was thr LAST filler/soap opera episode of the series. We’ve waited five long years for four seasons of TV and by God it’s time to stand and deliver!
Prometheus Actual, OUT
February 22nd, 2009 at 3:05 am
I simply do not understand this episode. We’ve been told and shown time and time again that someone CANNOT find the fleet unless they have the proper jump coordinates. As recently as Blood on the Scales Gaeta intended to ditch the non-mutineering fleet by not giving them the jump coordinates he was giving the other ships. There doesn’t seem to be any possible way Boomer could have found the fleet – and the fact that no one ever asked her “How in the world did you find us?” suggests that the writers themselves don’t have an answer to that question and didn’t think we’d be clever enough to notice.
This is not a trifling issue – the fact that coordination of the FTL drives is required has played a key role in several episodes. That was the big push when Kara went looking for Earth – they had to make it back to the Fleet before the clock ran out or they’d jump away and the other group would never be able to find them again.
The only possible explanation: Final Five can instinctively find one another and Ellen told Boomer where to go. Starbuck had that radar going in her head early in the season, so that sort of thing is not unprecidented. But if that IS how they found the Fleet, why didn’t they just say so in the episode? For them to think we wouldn’t even wonder, well, it comes across as almost insulting.
And between Tyrol’s “You aren’t really the father!” moment and this weeks “My evil ex-wife came back from the dead and made my girlfriend have a miscarriage!” moment, BSG is starting to get a little too soap opera-y for me. I hope the next couple episodes are better.
February 22nd, 2009 at 3:10 am
Building off my last post, a possible theory to redeem the how-did-Boomer-find-the-fleet issue.
Ellen told Cavil only the Final Five working together could rebuild Ressurection technology. Maybe Cavil TOLD Boomer to help Ellen “escape,” with the intention that once they were all together again he could nab them. Since the Hub is down, he can’t dare risk killing them and collecting their bodies like he sorta did with Ellen. Cavil’s basestar has something of a history of jumping in on the Ragtag Fleet and turning their power systems off, so maybe he’s had a way of tracking BSG all along – and that’s how Boomer found them.
Anyway, that’s the closest I can come to an even halfway reasonable explanation for Boomer being able to find the fleet, unless Ellen could just sense where they were through her Final Five-ishness.
February 22nd, 2009 at 5:26 am
Not the best of BSG.
In some parts this episode looked like “The Woman King” and it felt like that.
Hope for next week and more Starbuck.
February 22nd, 2009 at 7:18 am
I was ready and willing to defend this episode having read some of the criticism, and yet when I come to typing my words the defense escapes me. It was really a shoddily written episode, which clunked along heavily, as it spoke much and said nothing. There was no furthering of events, and only latterly provided two future plot points in Gaius’ followers gaining munitions and the scene with Anders showing he has a higher brain function in his coma state.
Points made before with Ellen mirror that of Tori’s from the mutiny story arc two episodes previous, with her seemingly just wanting to up and run with no real thought or reasoning behind her actions, Ellen’s childish treating of Tigh was similar in that it was pointless, futile and not befitting of a character that has been built up SO MUCH into being the FIFTH of the Final Five.
There is a criticism that can be laid against this episode, not because it was slow but because it was frakking pointless for 40 minutes. We showed the fleet amalgamating, Adama being more of a drunk, Starbuck not doing much apart from flying her Viper, Lee doing what he does best (we’re not sure what that is, but he does it the best)…there are far too many stories going on that aren’t progressing anywhere. Where’s Helo after his concussion? We didn’t even get a glimpse of him in sickbay, where was Athena in the whole decision making process? Surely with Hera she would have been an important character to involve, but she was strangely absent.
For those criticising this episode because it was slow…would you rather have Michael Bay directing it? And have the Centurions transform into actual toasters? Honestly…
But for those criticising due to incredibly poor structuring and development of plot, there points are well founded. We only have so many episodes left, and while they are building to a finale, it doesn’t feel like it, these feel like episodes which should be placed midway through a season, not when there’s only four episodes left until the climax of one of the most critically acclaimed series of modern time.
February 22nd, 2009 at 8:03 am
I dont think the episode is as bad as everyones making it out to be.
The whole cylon baby died without love was believeable, because it still died, even though they clearly loved it, it shows the religious and scientific aspects of the show. Heck its like real life, your’ll believe in anything if you want something to happen so bad. We also have the reasons that Caprica is under extreme stress, and that she had played colony scum bag beater earlier in the episode.
Ellen, again was believeable, she comes back, and shes influenced by the surroundings, its a human surrounding, where shes lower down in the pedastool. On the Cylon baseship she could go toe to toe with Cavil because she was older, and basically his mother, on the Galactica, shes more of an equal, and equals make mistakes.
Anyhows I like the episode. We had our treats with the knowledge given to us last week, and now were back to basics, the characters and how everything effects them, I mean, have we ever seen Tigh like this before? It was the character study of one character, and it was splendid.
Also Adama gave the guns to the cult because he couldn’t afford to have Centurions playing Gaurds on the Galactica, think how much hell that would raise, and due to the mutiny, there running low on Marines. So Baltar is seemingly the last open door, sadly.
February 22nd, 2009 at 9:17 am
Hey guys, I messed up my dates for MegaCon. I thought it was this weekend, but it’s actually next weekend. I don’t know if I’ll go to the Con, but I’ll check to see if my Friday is open for a Frak Party. If it is, maybe I’ll go for it.
February 22nd, 2009 at 10:06 am
Ok, while i did not think it ws the best episode i didn’t think it was one of the worst either. for some reason i actually enjoyed the humor in it. it did have a soap opera feel to it but i’m not as disappointed in the episode as the majority of you.
Ellen Tigh- “caprica six….is pregnant?” as she looks at tigh. BWAH! HA!HA!HA!HA!
I also agree with ryan on the top scene being the one with the vipers and the raptor. the passing shot of the starboard side of galactica i thought was good also.
February 22nd, 2009 at 10:20 am
THIS POST IS FOR MATT
DUDE, remember you were all disappointed with Ellen being the 5th?
I was too. Because she wasn’t a great character. And learning she was the 5th wasn’t juicy. It would have been more interesting if the Adamas, Baltar, or Roslin had been a Cylon.
BUT WHEN I saw Exit I felt the same way you did too. She went from a crazy troublemaker who likes to drink, frak and control Saul – To like this very kind and intelligent cylon trying to reason and give good advice. Her personality seemed to have changed and she grew on me really fast. She was becoming my favorite cylon.
BUT THEN the next episode was like a cheesy SOAP OPERA. Ellen had not changed, she was still the same way. I would like to of seen her been smart and kind and even make Roslin say something like “wow was that the same Ellen?” Saul, Roslin and Adama saw her as just the same old Ellen and so did I. Man I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooo disappointed with this show. FRAK!!!!
Matt when you guys make your show you better not be like “omg that was the best episode ever! the supsense was killing me, it was so hillarious, or this was just the greatest episode ever” because then I’ll hate your guts.
February 22nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
wow. alot of hate for this episode. Come on, its not worse than “Woman King”. Its not my favorite of this season, but still had alot of good in it.
@Queo_Lita – I agree, it did look like it was a head piano or something. The bartender looked at starbuck kinda weird when she asked him about it. From the you will know the truth picture, the guy playing it in this episode looks like the one in the picture. I am excited aout the next episode. I loved “Battlestar Sonotica” from the OST and since theres going to be piano playing coming up, I can’t wait to hear what Bear McCreary comes up with next. Did you all catch his cameo shot in the episode. Its when starbuck’s in the bar and he’s in the background talking. check out his blog entry for this episode to see a screencap. http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1475#more-1475
Like I said up top, my favorite scene is with Bill and Saul when his kid dies, chokes me up every time I watch it.
February 22nd, 2009 at 11:26 am
After Ellen told Caprica that Saul’s real true love was Bill Adama, and the hugging scene at the end of the episode I wondered if this was going to turn into Brokeback Mountain.
February 22nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Wow… I thought it was a good episode.
Having Boomer know where Earth is didn’t surprise me. I am sure that Cavil has that info in his database. Boomer simply liberated the info. I hope she deleted it from his files.
Galactica is not a hybrid. I look at the goo as a prostetic to keep her alive.
The memorial wall of the Cylons killed since the aliance was fitting. The crew is already mixed.
Was it just me, or did it look like Anders’ brainscan was showing a reboot.
This was very much a woman’s episode. Roslin’s disapproval of both Adama’s flask and letting the 5 meet was very icy – like about -100C icy. Baltar’s harem no longer needs Baltar. I’m waiting for Paula to show him an airlock.
Tigh’s jokes about great gandpa being a power sander to crying at Liam’s death. Adama mouring the slow death of Galactica. The range of emotions between Adama and Tigh really cover how guys interact.
The catfights were intense! Roslin & Caprica… ( that was posturing.) Ellen & Caprica… Ellen & Saul… A lot of claws were swinging. Good mercy, what did I get myself into! As much as Ellen wanted to hurt Saul, I would like to think that she didn’t really want to hurt the baby.
The conception and death of Liam that there is more to Cylons having a baby than simple sex. There is a spiritual link. The baby got into the trouble the moment that Ellen & Saul had sex. I know that this is all fiction. Still, my heart ached the moment Liam’s heart stopped. Maybe because if I had a second son, his name would have been Liam.
February 22nd, 2009 at 1:13 pm
I enjoyed the episode, as I do all episodes of BSG, but I feel it wasn’t well written. Ellen Tigh’s return to her drunken, shallow, egocentric ways was not at all welcome after she was such a strong character in No Exit. Also, I think, as other people have mentioned, there’s a plot hole with Boomer finding her way to the fleet with apparently no idea where it was, but I’m not sure RDM would just allow that to happen. Does this mean that the other cylons are still tracking the fleet somehow? Mike Hogan’s acting was by far the best part of the episode. Wonderful performance.
However, I think the Tighs made a very interesting point made about Hera and breaking the cycle of violence (”all this has happened before and will happen again”): Ellen mentioned that she thought Hera would be the “hope for a new blended future”, that humans and cylons needed to stay together and has said in No Exit that the final five wanted to break the cycle, while Saul talked about how “pure cylon” and “pure human” doesn’t work, that it leads to disaster. They’re implying that the only way to break the cycle is for humans and cylons to be together.
Ellen isn’t the only one to talk about Hera like that. Head-Six spent a long time telling Baltar that Hera was the shape of things to come. Does Head-Six want the cycle to be broken? What about Head-Baltar? They are supposedly ‘angels sent by god’; perhaps whoever this god person is, maybe he doesn’t like the whole genocide thing very much.
In No Exit, Anders mentioned that there were people that only they could see, similar to Head-Six and Head-Baltar – were these ‘angels’ too? It was these people who warned them that Earth would be destroyed, which lead them to reinvent the resurrection technology and go to the Twelve Colonies to try and break the cycle.
If you think about it, Head-Six and Head-Baltar orchestrated events right up to season 3. Without them, New Caprica and the occupation would simply not have happened: it was Head-Six that persuaded Baltar to colonise New Caprica and got him the nuclear war head that Gina detonated, leading the cylons to them. Without Head-Baltar’s influence on Caprica-Six, she would not have become a leader and could not have persuaded the others to occupy New Caprica. It was New Caprica which caused Hera to fall into the hands of the cylons, and later back to Athena; without this, Hera would have remained hidden from the cylons, they would still consider procreation impossible and the cycle would have been impossible to break.
On another note, perhaps the reason that the significant seven/eight can’t reproduce with each other is because the final five designed it that way. As early as season 1, the cylons made it clear that it was part of their religion to procreate. If they could not have children between them, they would have no choice but to turn to humans to satisfy cylonian religious conviction. This would mean that the final five’s goals of ending the cycle of violence would have to be fulfilled.
-Sam
February 22nd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
In terms of “world setting” consistency, Boomer finding the fleet in just a few jumps is ridiculous. This must be explained by RDM. Cavil DOES NOT KNOW where the fleet is. Otherwise, Cavil would just hound the fleet until it has run out of tillium and just blackmail them into giving him the final five.
If the Final Five can “instinctively” find each other then THEY HAVE TO EXPLAIN that too because it hasn’t yet been made known.
I guess this is my problem with Jane Espenson’s writing – she focuses on ALL the Wrong things. Her interview with the Chicago Tribune kind of confirms her desire for all things Soap Operatic. HOW Boomer found the fleet IS a Very Important plot-point to include in a SCIENCE FICTION SERIES. Of course, Cavil may have placed a tracking device on the Raptor – However, this would require the knowledge that the Final Five can “instinctively” find each other.
As to the new series Caprica, I’d just like to make an analogy with Marti Noxon’s “Point Pleasant”. Jane Espenson is ALSO a Whedonite. And is also mostly interested in Soap Opera situations. This cannot end well.
________________________________
On another point, I don’t believe that the “Temple of the Final Five” was built by the Final Five OR the 13th Tribe for that matter. I believe that Ellen in “No Exit” clearly stated that the 13th Tribe had nothing to do with it. In that case, I would postulate that the Lords of Kobol built it – because the Engineering Expertise required to build technology that would utilize a Supernova in order to alter a Cylon that wasn’t even built yet (#3 D’anna) and KNOW that some of the Final Five(13th Tribe) would be there to find it JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME to use it is asking too much of even humanoid Cylons. Clearly, the Lords of Kobol are the final players in this game. They’ve been orchestrating things for quite some time now.
I believe that HEAD SIX and HEAD BALTAR must be products of the Lords of Kobol. HEAD SIX simply knew too much of the future to simply be a Hallucination. HEAD SIX, throughout the series, continually spoke of bringing an end to the Human Race and that this was God’s Will. This MUST BE FULLY EXPLAINED by Ron Moore.
In Season 4.0, it appeared that HEAD SIX conclusively said “Good-Bye” to Baltar AND THAT SHE WOULD NOT BE COMING BACK. And now in “Deadlock” she appears again for some TRIVIAL muck-stirring for Baltar. I don’t believe that RDM would be this completely disorganized or that he wrote himself into a corner. So why would a mistake like this make its way into one of the final episodes of BSG?
February 22nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
I think lost in all of this was some of Tricia Helfer’s best acting to date. I thought she was wonderful in the scene with Roselin.
I believe a lot of the degeneration in Ellen’s character had more to do with showing what Cylon left to their own devices morph into. This episode also explains a lot of the character flaws in the different models (especially John) The creator are far from perfect and so are the children.
Obviously Ellen knew the coordinates of Earth and relayed them to Boomer. Timing wise Boomer and Ellen should have waint on Earth before the fleet but that would have messed up the other episodes. The fleet has jumped anywhere because of BSG’s cracking problems.
I don’t really enjoy the Admiral love for his dying ship plot line and at this point I don’t really see where it fits into the plot, unless it is the dying leader others have suggested.
I wasn’t a fan of baby dying for lack of love when clearly both of the parents had love for the child. I can only assume that plot shows how the humans are necessary for continuation of the Cylon race, since cylon love is so fleeting. If love is the key ingredient in Cylon reproduction, I can’t see how 3 males and 1 female of child baring age (of the final five) could possibly be the future of the 13th tribe.
Baltar is Robin Hood now, steal from the rich and give to the poor. It might be fun to see him prancing in the corridors in green tights and pointed hat.
I do enjoy the faster paced shows, but I can appreciate that BSG needs time to tie up some story lines (final five) and setup new ones going into the finale.
February 22nd, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Ryan, you reminded me that I forgot to mention the VFX in this one. Strange that I forgot, considering I’m big time into VFX.
This episode certainly was very very amazing when it comes to VFX. Season 4 has had basically no big VFX moments after the big battle in the Ionian Nebula in Ep 403. After that it was all short scenes.
If you noticed, Season 4 is home to some pretty bad lighting compared to the work of Zoic Studios, Atmosphere VFX and other work in previous BSG seasons.
But it seems that the VFX folk in S4 realized this and now the lighting is a lot better and darker.
Also, some of these short scenes are some of the best from a CG standpoint in the entire series. Some extremely high quality shots. If you have seen any of my previous thoughts on BSG VFX, you’ll know that when I think there just isnt any new VFX shot that will surprise me, they make my jaw drop with an extremely creative and artistic new shot.
In the particular episode of course I’m referring to the shot where 3 Vipers escort the Raptor into the Landing Bay of the Galactica. As Ryan stated, the highlight of this shot is how it starts, with the Viper engine wash hitting the camera. Also it is one of the few times we see the high detail model of the Landing Bay, and actually, the first time we see the detail of the red lights in the area where the pods retract.
There were one or two other shots of the fleet which, to my surprise, have not been recycled from pervious episodes. You know, making new shots costs money, and it’s very common to recycle and reuse old shots of the fleet.
But it was really great to see some new shots of the fleet from some really great angles.
So although this ep is quite disappointing from all other aspects, from a VFX standpoint, it was a very neat ep, especially for those of us who truly appreciate even these relatively simple shots (no big explosions or battles etc).
I truly hope that we have yet to be pleasantly surprised by the VFX team in BSG for the upcoming episodes, as well as by Bear McCreary.
Bear pumped us all up about S4 and the huge leeway and contribution music had to the writing and story. However I have yet to notice any extraordinary music, and S4 has been a bit of a disappointment from that aspect too. I was expecting a lot more from Bear. The last notable music was the piece that played during the destruction of the Hub as well as the pieces during Revelations.
In S4.5, either I’m totally insensitive to the music, or there really has not been any real new pieces.
I have no doubt though that Bear (and the VFX team) and every other department in BSG will blow us away.
They have created the best show in the history of television and did a divine job so far.
We must keep our faith in them and support them.
Plus, RDM wrote the last 3 hours of the show…just as he wrote the miniseries. So things really cant be anything but perfect.
So Say We All
Adalla
February 22nd, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Hi @all,
nice episode at all, after i’ve seen it two times. All is in place for the great showdown.
What belongs to the EllenPart2: Yes, i was also dissapointed to see this old envious, jealous SoapEllen back again after this fantastic re-intro in NoExit. But, for me BSG always belonged to one base theme: Humanity. It’ about to show nearly everybodies real feelings and weakness, so is Ellen: Fortunately she’s also captured in the one of the most typical human prisons called Love
Thus she is not perfect at all. So are we all. At least it’ll makes sense in context of the next eps. I hope. Patiently 
February 22nd, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Re: Deadlock
As one of the last five episodes of the series “Deadlock” is quite a disappointment.
I have no desire to go over the what and why-for’s, others here and elsewhere on the internet have pointed its flaws out better than I can.
IMO: In it’s current(as aired) state, “Deadlock” should go out the Airlock.
:/
February 22nd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
I don’t understand why people are so up in arms about Ellen’s change–it’s perfect. It shows that who she is, is who she is, and that FF or not,memory blocked or back, she’s still the same person. i think her behavior w/Cavil , is her other side, the side we never saw, which was Ellen at work, Ellen w/a goal–we have only seen her stuff w/Tigh, Which, btw, she even says is how they always were.
The change also shows how the FF, are fundamentally human, even if they are part of a humanoid cylon race, ie.the 13th tribe. I think that if she still acted as she did on the ship w/Cavil, it would have taken away the validity of Tigh still being the man he always was, and always the BFF of Adama. I had forgotten how jealous she was of that relationship, it was a big part of their fights, as she always wanted him to grab more power, especiallly after he’d been shot, but Tigh would never betray the Old Man. The only time he wanted to die, truly, was for his betrayal of Adama, not even for killing Ellen, interesting, right? Anyway, also the validity of the core personalities of Tyrol, and Anders being the same, not different because they are one of the FF, they are who they are.
One of the fundamental questions on this show has been what does it really mean to be human? Obviously love, and as Ellen said free will; the ability to choose who you are has been crucial to how they made their children and the characters on this show. Sharon said over and over again, that she chose to be there w/Helo, she wanted to be Athena and part of the team. As I have also said, I think that Caprica 6 desperately wants to be human, and that is one of the reasons the baby was so important. I think she wants what Athena has w/Helo. But Athena also got a very good man, who is loyal w/out fault.
It was not the best episode, by any means, but I did get a lot out of it. It reminded me of Black Market which taught us a lot about Lee, but was not a very good episode.
A
February 22nd, 2009 at 5:22 pm
After last weeks episode I knew we were going to need a transition to the end. This was it. Ellen has all of her memories back and this is the person she is. Did not surprise me in the least. In fact, watching her perform in front of Caprica, she should be put in the brig for manslaughter. She talked Caprica into a miscarrage. Anyway, I think this episode shows the rush to finish everything. They could have taken the cut scenes and gone at least another half season. Can not wait for the “boxed” set. (Bad pun, I know, but I teach Economics and have never claimed to be funny.)
February 22nd, 2009 at 6:09 pm
So Simon is still alive? Ellen “If Simon knew he would want to take care of it”. Present tense seems to indicate that he is still alive I am unsure of why Carprica saw it as a threat though. If Simon was dead I could see how it could be seen as a threat.
Will Simon make an appearance?
February 22nd, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Damn, Dark Night Bekkers. Talk about word salad!
February 22nd, 2009 at 8:53 pm
caprica 1st its DARK KNIGHT please get it right…. bekkers is my last name dont use it caprica if u are talking 2 me dercalty….. 2nd im trying 2 save y this is good not great but good… not has woman king was…. and 3rd what do u want me 2 say bout word salad! ?????
itwillhappen again, but we dont know if number 4 (simon) model type is dead or not but Ellen Tigh ment that Simon would want to study Caprica Six and Saul Tigh’s baby if given the opportunity. Caprica Six takes this to be a threat against her baby.
less sum of you liked the epiosde… thankx SometimesGreat, i hope that wasnt a joke…… also did any1 fell like that the idea of the food surply was simalr 2 Soylent Green….. also i see know one has taken up my bet yet
February 22nd, 2009 at 9:21 pm
So, just what are Adama and Tigh drinking? They are getting sloshed in one scene then it seems two scenes later they are up and sober… Is it Old Gemenon Whisky or what? I think we all need some of that!
February 22nd, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Dark Knight–it’s just that your posts are hard to read and understand. I have no idea what your are saying due to spelling and typing. I assume English is your second language? Kudos to you–believe me I know how hard it is to write in another language.
A
February 22nd, 2009 at 10:38 pm
@Morducai–Great point about Ellen’s plan for the skin-jobs only being able to reproduce with humans, thus joining the two races. That would be a great plan to maybe end the endless cycle of holocausts.
Another thought: Does the fact that Deadlock was kind of a disappointing letdown make it the Ellen of the Final Five episodes?
February 22nd, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Not the best episode. Worst points:
1. We didn’t need to see Adama staring at the insides of the ship every 5 minutes. WE GET IT! HE’S FREAKED OUT ABOUT THE GOO!
2. Kara away from Anders bedside? I would have liked the episode to explore this, why wasn’t she there? Was it the presence of the others that seemed threatening or demeaning, or annoying? Does it say something about her love or lack there of for Anders?
3. Scene with Caprica and Ellen (what is this DAYS OF OUR LIVES) That scene had potential, but couldve been written much better.
4. No one is the least bit curious about what Ellen knows: the three cylons were dying to know what Anders wanted to finish before he went into surgery. Ellen could have further explained Daniel, etc. But I guess they had more important things to think about?
5. Where are the Leobens?
6. Where’s Boom Boom? This episode seemed appropriate space for some Boomer, Tyrol interaction. Although that is saved for next week, I still think it wouldhave been much better than seeing Ellen and Tigh get it on on top of a table.
7. The over emphasis on miscarriage => lack of love. WE GOT IT, without it having to be explicitly spelled out.
8. Roslin: Are ya kidding? You’re really gonna just lay back and ask stupid questions with no seeming purpose such as: “Is your baby important?” That question would have been good had it been backed up with a plot that shows that Roslin is DOING SOMETHING WITH HER LIFE! (so annoying to see her and Adama just roaming the ship hand in hand lackadaisically.)
9. When will Lee pick representatives?
*** Overall, this episode could have been used in such a better way than to just focus around Caprica’s baby, I knew that baby was going to die anyway. There were so many open ends, not talking about the major things, but moreso the pragmatics of the story.***
Interesting points:
1. Adama is showing a lack of interest in the people on the ship. Is this an opportune moment for Baltar to step into a new leader role?
2. Tory is becoming increasingly conniving. She’s going to screw things up in some form or fashion. I predict siding with the Ones, Fours and Fives when that interaction occurs.
3. Paula: I am curious to see how she evolves as baltar’s antagonist.
4. Head Six returns: I would like to know if anyone has any theory on her appearance patterns; like how can we predict when she will show herself to baltar. And also, is she even relevant anymore, now that baltar apparently has no strong feeling toward Tigh and Caprica’s relationship? I mean, wasn’t that the point of this entity showing herself in the form of Six because she represented something that Baltar truly loved?
Good Points:
1. Yes I liked Ellen, it shows how badly human she is. What is constant about her character is her emotion, her passion in everything.
2. Adama and Tigh. Nuff said.
3. Ellen speaking for Tigh at Caprica’s bedside. That was a beautiful mix of Cylon Ellen and Human Ellen. Well Done.
February 22nd, 2009 at 11:39 pm
how the FRAK did boomer find the fleet?
February 22nd, 2009 at 11:51 pm
@Dark Knight Bekkers – it was made clear that Simon was an artist and not a scientist so I don’t understand you comment.
February 23rd, 2009 at 12:24 am
damn you Ron D Moore you frakking baby killer. why did u have to go and kill off little leum, the first cylon on cylon baby since the destruction of earth. is this saposed to be some sort of eye for an eye justice for caprica six’s mersy kill of that baby on caprica before the attack? come on man why why did u have to go and do it? any one here have any theories? please
February 23rd, 2009 at 12:27 am
also i feel like this episode was a bit of a wast considering how few episodes are left of the show
February 23rd, 2009 at 12:37 am
ACADEMY AWARD WINNERS:
Best Picture – Slumdog Millionaire
Best Actor – Sean Penn, Milk
Best Actress – Kate Winslet, The Reader
Best Supporting Actor – Heath Ledger, The Dark Knight
Best Supporting Actress – Penelope Cruz, Vicky Christina Barcelona
Best Director – Danny Boyle, Slumdog Millionaire
Best Adapted Screenplay – Slumdog Millionaire
Best Original Screenplay – Milk
Best Cinematography – Slumdog Millionaire
Best Film Editing – Slumdog Millionaire
Best Art Direction – The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Best Costume Design – The Duchess
Best Makeup – The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Best Original Score – Slumdog Millionaire
Best Original Song – “Jai Ho”, Slumdog Millionaire
Best Sound Editing – The Dark Knight
Best Sound Mixing – Slumdog Millionaire
Best Visual Effects – The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Best Animated Feature – WALL-E
Best Foreign Language Film – Departures
Best Documentary Feature – Man on Wire
Best Documentary Short Subject – Smile Pinki
Best Animated Short Film – La Maison en Petits Cubes
Best Live-Action Short Film – Spielzuegland (Toyland)
Thought you guys would like to know.
February 23rd, 2009 at 12:51 am
@Heath-I think you got the wrong forum my friend:), but thanks for the info though, i am glad heath Ladger got an oscar for his spellbinding performance as The Joker and I see Kate Winslet got her damn oscar so she can finally stop trying to “act” so damn hard no matter Kate you are still a fatty…lmao…anyone who watches Craig Ferguson will understand that joke.
I can’t wait for Matt+Nat reaction to this “interesting” episode.
February 23rd, 2009 at 1:10 am
What the frak is all this talk about Simon being an artist huh, Daniel was an artist add Simon is the logical one of the group. Ellen wanted o frak with Caprica Six and she mentioned Simon as a threat because Simon would have loved to get his hands on Caprica Six’s baby in order to do horrible medical studies on him. Thats why Caprica Six asked Ellen if that was threat which Ellen denied but Caprica Six knew it was indeed a threat. Like I said before Ellen probably orchestrated the whole ordeal in order for Caprica Six to lose her baby to get the other cylons get with the fraking program, come on people, didn’t you see Ellen’s face and reaction when Saul told her that he impregnated Caprica Six,. She was horrified and angryas she knew that that baby will put the whammy on the final five plan to integrate he cylons with the humans.
Ohh and I also have a theory about how Boomer found the fleet, Havne’t you people ever heard of a GPS device. I got my wife one…works wonders. Boomer and Ellen probebly made a pit stop on the way for gas and potty brake and some good ole’ algae burgers with algae fries!…lol…Sorry could not resist this one.
February 23rd, 2009 at 1:34 am
Atheena. The biggest problem I saw with the change of Ellen back to what she was before is right in line with my thoughts on characters throughout the series. The only thing that really makes us who we are are our experiences and situations. Ellen IS NOT the same person with the restoration of her memories. The only way she would be is if the program Cavil gave her for her colony personality exactly matched her from her time before.
I have an issue I suppose with the way people feel cheated about the FF and who/what they are. You have to think about it guys. They are basically, within the scope of BSG, the same as you or me. They were part of a civilization on Earth, they had jobs, they lived their lives. Once we found this information out why would you STILL expect them to be some kind of mythical beings? Remember, the idea of something is usually far more mystical and exciting than the reality. In reality, the final five are just people. Don’t try to attribute them to the gods or god or any great absolute purpose. Their purpose was what they chose it to be and not what some great mystical being told them it should be.
This episode had a lot of good stuff in it, but it saddens me that Caprica lost the baby. It seems to me that the writers have gone to great lengths to actually make hera the ONLY cylon type baby come into being. Tigh not trusting the machine was funny, but really there’s more to it than just what he said. It goes to show that we’re forgetting something about Earth. Just because they seem to have lost it with the resurrection, Cylons have been procreating on Earth for 1000+ years or so.
We saw the return of one of my favorite characters tonight — Head Six. However, I dont think that these “head” characters are the words of the great and powerful almighty or even the lords of Kobol/Beings of Light. I think the “head” characters are just these characters tapping into their true feelings and thoughts.
I am, however, quite perplexed at Baltar’s call for weapons even though it came from his “head” character. I’m not real sure what Baltar could have said to the admiral to actually get the weapons he wanted. The biggest reason I am confused is that Baltar’s harem has always been thought of as a bunch of fanatacis. For Adama to actually consider, let alone give Baltar weapons makes me think Adama is just plain worn down and has given up in more ways than one.
I think Adama has already started mourning the loss of his beloved Galactica. I don’t remember the exact quote, but he did say that after the work was done “she” won’t even know who she is anymore. I think Bill Adama is “the dying leader” spoken of in the Pythia scrolls if they actually hold true. I’ve been thinking this more and more, and in this episode I think we finally see just how worn out the old man really is.
As for Ellen’s performance in this episode, I truely think she had a wake up call. She fell into “old Ellen” mode, and I really and truely dont buy her being so petty with the “vote” just to get back at Tigh. However, she did say later (paraphrase) that what she said in that room didnt matter because she knew they had to stay with the humans. So regardless of what she said they really are staying because that is what her true vote is. I was, however, quite impressed with what Ellen said about surivivors. Imagine instead of 50,000 there were five, just five. And in reality that is the case. You have Cylons A (colonial cylons), Cylons B (Earth), and Centurions (who strangely enough seemed to be the same in both areas). While the centurions were friendly to the cylons from Earth, they really were different races. I think the Earth cylons are truely organic and not machine as we would define it. I don’t think they are programmed due to being created by procreation and not manufacture.
At the end of the episode we saw Sam’s machine showing brain activity so I guess that means we get him back next episode. Also, we saw how the Galactica has already started, in a small way, accepting the cylons in their fleet. The reason I say this is that the humans haven’t destroyed the cylon memorial in the halls of the Galactica.
The Boomer traitor trial idea is interesting as it appeared to be proposed by the cylons. The one thing that holds true in reality as in this show is that people only see what they want to see and not what really happened or is happening. Everyone has conveniently forgotten that the Boomer model was programmed as a human and had some internal switch that went off to activate the cylon kill programming. So in BSG reality Boomer was like the guy who gets captured and brainwashed by the enemy and comes home to cause trouble. Putting her on trial for treason is an extreme stretch since she isnt human. Now if they put her on trial for espionage it would be different. Also, Boomer was already killed on Galactica for what she did so there’s another huge stretch and leap of faith that any justice system would actually say this “boomer” was legally the same. If she’s being tried for treason, and if it isn’t just a trial for show then they are obviously attributing her some kind of rights. The best possible case is that you can say she has Boomers MEMORIES and isn’t actually Boomer. Kinda tricky from a legal standpoint, but this show really doesn’t seem to care about that kind of thing really…They just seem to want to do these things to push the plot somewhere.
Can someone please tell me why no one called Kara out about the piano in the bar. When did you get a piano. I didn’t. Then we leave and it’s over and no one even so much as gave her a wierd look. Really really dropped the ball on this one, but perhaps that was because they wanted to do it all next episode.
Everyone sees the 5 as cylons seeing as they are cylons, but they all just forgot that they were deprived of their identity, and that they also did their best to prevent the destruction they inadvertantly caused. It appears that Ellen sees the cylons they created as children, but would Tigh and the others see them that way if he had all his memories? The 5 seem to be accepting of the fact that they are indeed cylons, but at the same time they seem to have forgotten what they were when they thought they were human. They have all but given up most of their human identity. The real question is if they all had their memories would they turn out like Ellen did this episode and just be who they were as “humans” when they knew nothing about Earth and their past histories.
As I think about this episode and the proximity of the end, I realized just how frustrated I am. I don’t want every episode to spoon feed me mass information like last episode, but there has to be some furthering of the storyline beyond Ellen being a tramp and alcoholic for real and the cylon cylon baby dying. The one thing that puzzles me is that all 5 of these guys were from Earth where they had been having BABIES for 1000+ years. Why then did TIgh and Ellen and Tory/Tryol never have any? You can’t tell me that Love is required to have children as pregnancy is strictly a physical condition insomuch as you either are or you aren’t. You can’t be a little bit pregnant. It’s like a light switch. Also, I just realized that one thing also that was lost in our thinking is that the cylons on earth were NOT programmed, and that they Earth Cylons evolved out of being machines even though their physiology is different than the humans.
One great thing that this episode made me see was that Adama and Tigh are together forever. This is from the early scene and then the final scene between the two men.
Now that I sit down and think about the series as a whole and what has happened I realize I am slightly disappointed at how they created the skinjob models. Truely when you sit down and think about these models they aren’t human, but they aren’t exactly machine either. Ellen said they were maturing the daniel copies. They matured in amniotic fluid. So I guess that means that the cylons are really just a race of bio-organic machines. The only problem with they way they were created, they are still different chemically than humans but they mimic humans exactly pretty much. Still need air to breathe, still need food and all that. I understand making them appear human on the outside and wanting to mimic human action I guess since that is how it was so long ago and that is what the centurions asked for. However, why would they ask for them if they were so oppressed by the humans in the first place. Why would any sentient being ask for you to make them something that would only serve as a reminder of where they came from.
Also, the new and improved centurion models and the raiders. Were they able to transfer the memories from the original centurions into the upgraded models? There really are a lot of holes in this imagining of the BSG universe and all these questions won’t get answers. It was so much simpler when cylons were created by another race and there were no skin jobs. My biggest problem with the skinjob models created by the Earth cylons was the NEED of their “cylon” bodies for the things that make humans so weak compared to the centurions.
Even in this series it seems the idea of what a cylon is has changed. Originally the skinjobs seemed to be stronger than their human counterparts unless they didn’t know they were cylons. They still needed air to breathe which makes no sense to me since the centurions didn’t need it. Why build a limitation into a new model. Yea the new models looked human, but now they are also sharing the limits the humans have and the cylons have no need for. The centurion homeworld could have been a planet without food, but now you have to also feed your population. Now you have also programmed made bodies which can’t survive as hostile an environment so you have to build better housing. I just think somewhere along the way the writers and we the audience have accepted the changes made to the cylons without really questioning them.
Leoben when in custody I think was able to break his chains, but none of the other skinjobs ever really showed any of this kind of ability. I guess my real question is WHY would a race of physically superior beings ask to have models created which had NONE of its advantages over the race that enslaved them in the past. I mean these advantages are what let them fight back and escape the colonies in the first place.
Another interesting idea is that the cylons were created when adama was a child. Ok so the colonial cylons have been around for roughly 60 -70 years. In the years leading up to the first cylon war the cylons were able to revolt against the colonies and start a war with their very own bastars and raiders. Where did they build these things out of sight of the already advance colonial fleet? Then they fight their war and go off on their own. Sometime around the end of the war the Earth cylons show up and get them to stop fighting. The cylons at this point are still using colonial technology. So in the last 40 years I think it was since the end of the war the cylons have created the skinjobs, radically advance their technology on most things with the exception of weapons, created ORGANIC ships, founded themselves a colony/cylon homeworld, built more ships than the colonies had in their fleet, along with upgrade centurions, base ships, raiders, and on and on and on.
***********************
I believe with four episodes left we are not yet done seeing death. I think that giving Baltar’s fanatics guns in the state Baltar is in, humanitarian, may actually be beneficial on the lower decks.
I believe the fleet will end up on the colony where the final five created the resurrection technology for the cylons.
I believe Cavil/John knows where the fleet is seeing how Boomer was able to fly to them in just two short days, and I believe he will be meeting up with the fleet in 2 episodes. I think he hasn’t come for them sooner because he was afraid of actually being killed, but I think with Ellen being joined with the fleet he is ready to come guns a blazing unless he sent Boomer there with the intention of collecting the five in a futile belief that he can get them to rebuild his resurrection hub. I do, however, find it hard to believe that in the time since the war before he placed the final five in the colonies that they were never able to figure out the technology. I mean they did have to build this stuff after all — it didnt just grow into the giant resurrection hub. Also, they had to maintain it and monitor their systems and all that kind of thing. So Cavil not having the ability to rebuild it using the information and equipment at the colony makes no sense to me other than the writers needing something to drive Cavil to do more evil.
I believe admiral Adama will die within two episodes, and Tigh will be the one to get the fleet to where it will eventually end up.
I believe the “end” that Starbuck was leading them to was earth. It was their end. At least that is true of the 13th colony. Also, if that is not the case, why does she assume that this means they will all die. Harbinger of death can also mean discovery of death which is what they found on Earth. After all, the hybrid wasn’t to specific about “lead them all to their end” and what it meant. DId it mean all humans, all cylons, all cylons on Earth, or everyone in existence?
I believe I have no idea about what Starbuck is, and I’m not really very sure we will find out. I also believe the resurrection technology on Earth no longer works, and that the destruction of Earth was cause not by some force off the planet but due to a holocaust on the planet between differeing factions of the cylon race. However, it would stand to reason that if the final five could put a ship in orbit to get off the planet that others from Earth could have done the same and escaped the holocaust and just happened to save their own asses and went looking for another planet to live on other than trying to find and save the colonies. The only thing that gets me is that Earth had space faring technology for several thousands of years, but there were no ships or colonies on any other planet in the system. For instance, Mars could have had a colony under atmospheric domes, but that would have meant there would have been ships in the system. I find it hard to believe that there weren’t considering Earth was a colony for them to begin with. Seeing that city made me think Earth was heavily populated.
I believe we won’t be given all the answers to our questions, and we will walk away from this series wondering and yearning for the series Caprica to start and provide us with the possibility of having questions answered.
I believe they should take some of the money they have earned on this series and buy me a new house cause I really need one. It would need a BSG theme of course with my very own Six and Eight fully functional models to “talk” to.
I apoligize for the novel post, but I guess I felt like rambling on.
—Not very machinlike of you. (Adama) Well Great Granpa was a powersander (Tigh) <– the best quote ever on BSG
February 23rd, 2009 at 1:43 am
sorry for the double post.
Morducai do you know how GPS works? It works using the position of satellites around the earth and your point on the surface of the earth. I suppose Boomer could have tracked some signal down coming out of the fleet, but that just means Cavil could do the same thing.
and OMG I wanted to apolgize for my terrible grammar and spelling in my last post. Where’s the damn spell check when you need it.
February 23rd, 2009 at 2:13 am
@tearyn112-you do realize it was a joke the whole GPS device theory right???
February 23rd, 2009 at 2:30 am
sorry for posting this much but i just noticed that there is a mistake in title for this podcast. This Podcast should be 4.18 and not 4.16
February 23rd, 2009 at 6:19 am
Deadlock, yes, review the show, hmmmmmmm.
Well I was defiantly ready for this one. Until now all the shows from the second half have been fast paced action packed slices of heaven and that was what I was expecting. Well, I guess it had to watch it again with a more open mind. Once I did that it all came into alignment for me and I must agree it was a good one just far from what we have seen so far.
The first thing I want to point out while everyone will be talking about the Tigh Ellen story line ad you know I like to dive deep into the shows. At this point I have stopped looking for some secret thing hidden for us to discover and just trying to catch on to what the writers are trying to get across. Sorry got side tracked. Now get a load of Adama in this one. Not only is he hitting the bottle and pills heavy but he is barely holding on to reality now but I think he is beginning to grasp the whole truth of things. It started out with him checking up on the job the Cylons were doing fixing his girl then looking at the goop. “Can I touch this?” He is always looking at anything Cylon with suspicion and hatred and this week we see him starting to understand maybe they are not as bad as he was thinking. I feel it showed a massive change in Adama in a subtle way.
Now onto the big one. It took a couple viewings to catch this one and it is also being talked about on BSG Pilots the fact that Caprica’s baby died at almost the same time as Anders came “back online.” Is this just a coincidence or is there more to it? Also did anyone catch his brain wave functions? I’m not sure how familiar anyone is with what normal brain waves look like but what he was showing was WAY above the average. It was as if (To me anyway) like he was receiving a down load to his brain. This is why I don’t think it was a coincidence of the baby dyeing at the same time his brain came back to life. That and add the previews to next weeks show with Starbuck coming to find out how she came back I think it all fits like a glove. I may be prejudice of this one because it is mine but to me it all makes sense.
Last the vote. Now I want to point out one simple thing that I feel a lot may have forgotten, the final 5 who wanted to leave the fleet got the majority of the vote. This is still leaving us hanging as to weather or not they will leave. I know Tigh will stay no matter what the vote says but at a time when the fleet needs the Baseship the most it may leave and the fleet will be prime to be hit by Cavil’s forces. (Remember them? They must a bit more than pissed off about Boomer taking Ellen away from them.) It is just a matter of time before that comes to a head and with as few shows as we have left we may see that story arc come sooner rather than later.
Well that is my 2 cents. I started working on this last night but a busy shift at the fore house made it get all messed up. Sorry if I lost my train of thought. I hope it still comes across well.
February 23rd, 2009 at 7:21 am
dear athena my 1st language is english and my 2nd language is bad english and be truthly i am from the uk…… the reason is hard to understand what im writing is Because of my dyslexia….. okay…….
itwillhappen simon is model 4 he was introduced in season 2 episode the farm….. the one witch was an artist was model 7 Daniel… if u dont believe
itwillhappen look it up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylon_(reimagining) u will see im right….. Morducai thank you
February 23rd, 2009 at 7:55 am
Just a quick point on the Kara “Starbuck” Thrace harbinger of death line. Not that I believe in them at all, but in tarot cards death doesn’t necessarily mean destruction or termination of life, it can also mean change, so picking up on taeryn post you could be right in that Earth was the death/change of one idea and the creation of another. Starbuck led them to Earth where they found it apocalyptic, but as a result it completely changed and is changing their perception on where to go, and also on their views, opinions and attitudes towards Cylons.
February 23rd, 2009 at 10:23 am
This episode was absolutely terrible.
I am the biggest BSG fan, believe me. I love this work of art dearly. (And I just bought two custom-made spreadshirt.com BSG t-shirts! which proves it, haha)
When Ellen’s character development started going backwards early in the episode, I actually wanted to turn it off.
Asking for a flask? Calling Caprica their child? (She’s a creation, not a child, and further, Saul doesn’t even have his memory back lady!) Shouting at him about loving Adama more than either of them? The fetus dying. Blech. Blech. Blech. Horrifying.
How could RDM sanction Ellen’s character development backtreading like this? Who knows? Dumbest thing I have ever seen.
Ok, I will stop now. Very sad, but hope for the best.
February 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 am
Sorry, one more thing…Baltar? Espenson (writer) has turned him into a joke. Very sad. How can we care about him at all? He left the basestar to be with them and look after them (noble, mature, character development) and when he gets back, it turns into a pissing match with that chick in charge? Ridiculous.
(wincing, wincing, wincing when I think about this episode)
Thank the cylon god it’s the last for Espenson! does not bode well for Caprica!
Thank again RDM wrote the final bits…
February 23rd, 2009 at 11:56 am
I’m disappointed in this and the last episode – hope the ones coming up before the end are better.
This episode was too much Ellen hissy fit and Caprica Six being a total wimp – how can this be the same Cylon who conned the Colonial defense codes out of Baltar and snapped a baby’s neck in the pilot? Not that I’m loving the baby-killing thing; glad she gave that up but still. Why didn’t she just drag Ellen the spoiled drama queen to the nearest airlock and push her out to suck on vacuum? Did another model of Six slip into the story at some previous point and take her place?
So Ellen created the additional seven Cylons because she couldn’t have a baby? And does that explain why she made them sterile? I’m beginning to think maybe Cavil is justified in hating his momma.
February 23rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I agree with you Tootie. This was an unnecessary episode this late in the game and i wonder why RDM approved this kind of episode being that we only have 4 more episodes but i am sure they had their reasons for making this episode and i really would like to know RDM thoughts on it, maybe his podcast on this episode will explain few points I would sure love to know why Espenson wrote this very soapish episode that was kinda stale but it did have its moments, perhaps it was written in her contract. As far as all the criticism that this episode is getting for the the sharp shift it took with Ellen’s Tigh RDM gave a hint to why she acted the way she did in this episode in his podcast for “No Exit” but i still want some kind of an explanation from Espenson about why she wrote this Days of Our battleship episode. this episode only saving grace was Michael Hogan and his brilliant performance. But another explanation came to me that maybe they had no choice but write this kind of episode. Could it be that last four episode have so much going in them and all will be reviled on those episode that they just needed this episode as a transition episode as to not revile the whole story too soon?. I really hope that the upcoming episodes won’t be like this one. I don’t think Ron Moore and David Eick will cheat all of us like this. I still believe that the ending will have us all standing with mouths open saying what he frak.
February 23rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Ok all,
I have now watched this episode for the fourth time. I wanted to make sure before I made a decision on it.
I can honestly say this is probably the WORST episode os season 4. A couple of good effects shots and an absolutely awesome performance by Michael Hogan cannot salvage the terrible writing on this one. Jane Epson (sp?)- you really screwed the pooch on this one.
I sincerely hope that the rest of the episodes stay the hell away from the soap opera formula used in this one. I also agree that there were definite shades of “The Woman King” in this episode.
All in all, not the best work we have seen but I am hopeful for the rest of the series.
NO MORE CBMs!!! (Cylon Bitch Moves)
February 23rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Well, like many others, I feel ambivalent about the show. I’ll give them some things (Ellen and Boomer found the fleet ’cause they have to for the story to move forward – hand-wave a little applied phelbotinum to the situation and lets’ move on), but others don’t make sense. Cheif wanting to leave is out of left field, though not completely out of the park – a little more focus on him being upset when Adama says, “No Cylons” and “No Goo” last week before he changed his mind would make it more believeable. Ellen didn’t bother me at all – they may love each other, but she and Tigh also reliably bring out the worst in each other. Best idea in the world to keep them seperate. But Baltar with guns. This is soooooo not of the good.
All in all, a “catch your breath and shake things (and babies, sorry Liam) off” kind of episode, to give us a chance to get ready for the sprint to the end… I hope. If this ep is the shape of things to come, we’re screwed.
February 23rd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
So…we’re supposed to believe that the chief just wants to up and leave for no good reason at all? Sorry writers, I call BS. This is definately the worst one in season 4. Far, far too much soap for my taste.
February 23rd, 2009 at 1:19 pm
By the way, Bear says that the next episode will “re-define the role music will play in narrative.” SO yeah, it’s gonna pick up.
February 23rd, 2009 at 2:55 pm
In the Mo Ryan Chicago Tribune blog with Jane Espenson….(which most people on here won’t want to bother reading)…(which I had to read to try and see what she was thinking)…..Jane’s views are…….well, they’re reflected in the episode I guess.
Oh well.
Moving on.
Thanks for that bit above Brian. Bear is great and always spot-on in his observations. Makes me as excited about Friday as I can be during this still-reeling, get-the-stink-of-that-last-episode-off-me period!
February 23rd, 2009 at 4:56 pm
OK, apologies for any repeats but I skimmed a lot of posts in order to miss out the “what a terrible episode” s. By far not the best but it was just doing its job
Anyhoo, don’t want to fall into that trap…
Adama’s drug habit? Could the whole Roslin thing be a red herring and Adama be the true dying leader? I’ve been concerned about him for a while and think the Roslin thing was too easy. Of course the old girl (Galactica) is also not looking too fit atm.
Could someone also explain how the frak Baltar convinced Bill to give him weapons please? What was the deal?
Daniel=Starbuck’s dad. Spoilertasic everywhere you look. Either that or she’s just mental.
Give lee some more guns!
February 23rd, 2009 at 5:01 pm
I agree with most of the people here…not the greatest episode this season. I’m not entirely sure i’m buying into the Daniel=Starbuck’s dad scenario either. i’m still thinking Baltar might be Daniel as it would explain how the frak he survived that nuclear explosion at the beginning of the series. and what was the deal with Head Six coming back?
February 23rd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
@Tioep: at some point in the script there were scenes were bringing in Centurions from the basetar to Galactica was considered by Adama (or someone), cause the marines were too few. That’s why baltar says that giving guns to him is the only *human* solution left.
February 23rd, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Okay….hmmm… I didn’t really want to comment on an episode that I disliked. First, the easy part…the good part: Ellen and Tigh Frakked. Liam died (I’m sorry, I just didn’t want a full cylon baby…even though I thought the death was too corny). Showing how much Tigh and Adama are the show’s best friends, period.
The bad part: Ellen is back to being bitchy (This makes the most sense to me though. RDM did say that Ellen is now like two Ellens. Both sides). Pointlessness of this episode to the finale (in my view so far). By the way, was that Baltar’s kid? If so, that makes sense. He’s slept with half the fleet so how many little Gaius’s are running around. Hmm….
that’s it. I rather not put energy into a comment about an episode that was disappointing.
-Mario
February 23rd, 2009 at 6:41 pm
It’s just like Ron Moore said; everything is going back to how it was:
I loved the callback to Bastille Day “All we need is a nuclear warhead/ bigger guns,” although that whole storyline did seem a little awkward to me.
Ellen is reverting back to how she was. I have a feeling that the way she acted in this episode is really how she is. She may have changed after creating Cavil, and she certainly changed for a while during the occupation, but this is what she really is.
Head six has returned. That is a callback.
Season one Starbuck may or may not be here to stay. We shall see.
The Galactica is an old ship again. (RDM mentioned this in one of the podcasts)
Tyrol is the odd one out as far as callbacks. He has completely changed. I’m not sure if he really would have voted to go. It seems like he had found his place on the Galactica as chief again. Since the rebellion he had really stepped up and gotten his head in the game. I guess at heart he knows he is a cylon. The one way that he could go back to how he was is if he got together with Boomer again. Next week’s episode looks like it’ll be Boomer-centric, so maybe we will have some of that.
February 23rd, 2009 at 8:25 pm
I am a huge fan of Gaius Baltar, so I love the fact that he is going to play a major role in the finale.
I laughed when I saw that Baltar was the first one to get into the Raptor in episode 13, The Oath. During the mushy goodbyes: “Admiral and Madame President, PLEASE… (Quit frakking around, I have to get out of here!)”
In episode 14, Blood On The Scales, I was very confused when Baltar woke up screaming “NO!!…Oh god, they’re going to shoot him (Adama). Oh, I feel sick.” Why, why, Why would Baltar care? Especially while sleeping safely aboard the Cylon baseship. Was his reaction just guilt for leaving his flock (compared to Adama, who stayed), or is Adama really something special to Baltar?
I think that this episode was CRUCIAL, even if you hate it.
I think it’s a little funny that some people get worked up over seeing a dramatic episode in the final hours of the series and talk/beg as if they can change the outcome of the already filmed ending…although I suppose it’s all a little like Schrödinger’s Cat in our reality, until we see the episodes…. Schrödinger’s Battlestar it is then.
What a hard episode to write…It had to be done to get people into place and change your minds (and especially Adama’s and Roslyn’s, etc.) about the very necessity of a combined Human-Cylon future–A long, slow painful process to accept. It doesn’t happen at gunpoint, so I understand that some people might get bored. For example, Adama accepting his ship being cylonofied, Roslin accepting Caprica as a real mother, Cylons accepting the death of Liam–they are all emotional triggers to develop that change. Naturally, people take sides, and we have already established the pure-cylon faction and the pure-human faction, so now we have to see the unity faction forming. The pure-human faction needed a leader (in lieu of Gaeta and Zarek), so Baltar signs up and needs to be put back on top. The show-down is now set up. John’s Cylons, RosAdama and the Rebels (a Dylan-esque rock group?), and Baltar’s flock of humans.
Baltar played on Adama’s guilt for breaking Galactica’s “Made By Humans, Run By Humans” seal of purity and got him to donate to Gaius’s Guns for Humanity Foundation. While this last donation to humanity may have eased Adama’s conscience, it also means that he has also armed the nutjobs that he will have to face in the near future. (Giving weapons and training to a future enemy…where have I seen that before?)
One thing is certain however, they can’t keep on killing each other over these differences. There will be nobody left.
My god! Will somebody think of the children!
F.Q. Ellen to Saul: “You must have laughed your shiny, shiny head off.”
February 23rd, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Wow like it or not this episode has created quite a firestorm of debate.
I cannot add much to what has already been said, overall I am not as disappointed in the episode after taking time to ponder the implications and the why’s of how this episode was made. I can see why the episode was written in a very dramatic (soapish) form however I felt the episodes biggest flaw was balance. Way too much precious time was spent on Ellen/Tigh/Six story arc and not enough was devoted to the other story arcs. I’m guessing the creators over estimated the level of viewer interest in this story is the only explanation that comes to mind but by the third act I was already thinking enough is enough with this story. Granted this a crucial story and I’m sure that the events of this episode were crucial to the finale, but for some reason the magic touch of the incredible 4.5 run so far seems to hit a speedbump on the way to the end.
It’s still a fine episode and piece of the BSG puzzle though, and in the end it is very much a true BSG chapter.
February 23rd, 2009 at 10:44 pm
I promised myself I wouldnt say how awesome you guys are, Matt and Nat, and how great these casts are that you are doing…but here it goes, I’m doing it again. You guys rock!
Now that that’s out of the way, I want to stress 2 amazing points that you guys brought up, of which one MIGHT JUST BE THE ANSWER TO EVERYTHING!
1) THE IDEA THAT THE ONLY DISTINCTION BETWEEN HUMANS AND CYLONS, and the ability to procreate naturally, is LOVE! What a fantastic concept, and I cant believe nobody has mentioned it before. It just dawns on me now that this might be the answer to everything. That the cycle will end with the hybrid in-breeding between humans and cylons (Hera being the first of the next generation of God’s children) and that the Hybrid Generation will be the next “Kobol” with a hybrid race that one day loses the ability to procrete naturally due to conflict (and lack of Love) and thus the Cylon-only race is born yet again, with it’s continuity ensured not by natural means, but by Organic Memory Transfer, or basically a very high tech ‘Ressurection’ technology, artificial nonetheless. It’s possible that on the other hand, the race that IS able to continue procreating naturally becomes “human-only”. Thus the 12 Tribes and the 13 Tribes part their ways, and the Cycle starts over, with the 13th Tribe learning to love again, regaining ability to procreate naturally and losing Ressurection, to once again create machines that rebel against their masters due to lack of love. Same with the humans on the 12 Tribes of Kobol, to once again end up learning the “hard way” the lessons, that love is key!
2) I cant remember now after all that I just blurted out lol, next time
Adalla
February 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 pm
We’re overlooking the obvious.
Remember in “A Disquiet Follows My Soul” when Caprica Six was getting her ultrasound, she said, “The Cylon nation will survive.”
Doc Cottle’s medic, Ishay, seemed to go pale.
I think in “Deadlock” Ishay chose her side, and murdered the baby cylon.
And when she’s found out, this might be what drives the cylons over the edge to complete the destruction of humanity.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:52 am
Hey, Gaia here from TCF to make another prediction.
Since it was revealed in No Exit that Cavil (and by proxy the One models) was modeled after Ellen’s father (and thus showing that the F5 actually had real live parents), than who is to say that Caprica (and by proxy the Six models) wasn’t modeled after Ellen when she was younger. There is a likeness between Ellen and the Sixes in the way they act and manipulate. This would make Ellen even more pissed off than what she would be. I don’t think if it was, say an Eight or a Three (although the Three is totally not an option here, let’s pretend there’s a whole bunch of them), she would be as angry with Saul for it. Seeing him with a younger version of herself would put her over the top pissed, which she was until she figured out how happy Caprica was making Saul by being able to give him his child and backed off in the end. Hopefully Saul won’t leave Caprica high and dry now that she’s lost the baby…am I the only one crossing my fingers that maybe they’ll get it on again? Also, this whole thing would explain why Saul was constantly able to interchange who he saw he was making love to…because it was his wife when they first met. Or something like that.
The F5 can either come back biologically (which we saw with Anders getting his brain activity line back when Caprica lost the baby) or through the hot tub. If they came through the hot tub, they came back at the age they were when Earth exploded. This would explain Ellen’s return, maybe Tigh’s (but not with his hair). And I agree with Matt, I think they’re just humans. Humans who made up this ability to come back through a hot tub (which is more fun to think of than a resurrection chamber). They knew they could be reborn biologically, but if something was calling out to them (some need or event) they were able to come through the hot tub at the age they were at the time they died. The only time they could come back biologically was if two cylons mated. So I think Tyrol, Tory, and Anders parents may have all been cylons. If that’s how they came back, it would explain why they are so young. And no, I don’t know where their parents went, but if they came through on a hot tub, how could that be explained with Anders especially. He trained to be on the Bucks and spent all that time on a mountain. He didn’t die during any of it. So he had to be reborn.
I don’t know, I’m totally talking in circles now, but I think you all get the gist of what I’m talking about. The F5 are just REALLY/Abnormally smart humans.
February 24th, 2009 at 12:56 am
Also, one more thing, Am I the only one who is thinking that maybe the ship and Laura Roslin may be connected in some way? I mean Laura was named as the “Dying Leader”. But as her condition deteriorates, so does the condition of the ship. The ship could technically be the Dying Leader. If the ship is fully repaired, so would Laura Roslin. Though, I don’t think the ship had breast cancer that took over their body. They could still be linked though.
And how OUTRAGEOUSLY ADORABLE were Bill and Laura holding hands? Sorry for the squee.
February 24th, 2009 at 2:02 am
I fear some will think of this episode as slow, and pointless in these times of action-driven mutiny-laced episodes which surely, can only keep building towards a grand finale. I think in the grand scheme of things though, we’ll look back, and enjoy these slower-paced pieces of emotional baggage. The deep breath before the plunge.
Jane Espenson has always inspired and set the bar for me when it comes to character moments, but I’ve never really had much positive to say about her abilities to craft a good story. Most writers wouldn’t get away with some of the absolutely boring episodes she’s come up with in the past, but Espenson can really rise to the occasion when it comes to catching up with our favorite characters.
Michael Hogan for-the-Emmy. I’ve told my friends from time to time that Michael Hogan has more acting in his left eye than most do in their whole bodies, and this episode reminded me of that. Kicked out of sickbay for the second time in as many weeks, torn between two women, Saul stumbles down Galactica’s corridors, fighting back the tears that would reveal his absolute mortal and human vulnerabilities from the crew, he stumbles into the only place he feels safe and doesn’t have to hide his pain; Admiral Adama’s presence. The moment he walks through that door, he need not say words, we can see it in his lonely eye, the Colonel has been defeated.
Roslin calling #6 ‘Caprica’ was more for me than just recognizing the cylons as individuals – it was a reminder that that #6 in particular is regarded as the singular cause for victory in the Holocaust against humanity. She’s comparable to Hitler if not at the very least Eichmann. While Hitler died, Eichmann went into hiding for a number of years. Did the Israeli Prime Minister walk down the halls of a military vessel talking humorously about the past when they finally caught up? No, I’m pretty sure the Israeli Prime Minister ordered some secret guys to do some secret job to bring that guy down big time. This scene more than any other in the series has reminded me that our main characters haven’t shown the kind of hatred towards the enemy that I don’t only expect, but I think should be expected. The cylons that made their way onto the Memorial Hall – how many of them voted for the genocide against humanity? All of them. How hypocritically ironic it was for those few dead cylons to have been placed among a sea of faces that they were ultimately responsible for destroying.
Everyone seemed to really want to listen to what Anders was saying in the previous episode, so why is it that only one cylon (Tigh) seems to pay attention to that one last thing that seemed really important (stay with the fleet)? Sure, maybe Tyrol, Tory and crew want to leave, but Anders made them aware of their history, then they turn around and say “Oh, well, frak that last thing you said”. I mean, what a wake-up party that would have been for him had they moved his unconscious body following a vote. “Yeah, we know you said not to, but you were asleep, so, I mean, we counted your vote, you just lost.” Cylons sound real democratic to me. Furthermore, that whole bit about “Yeah, we should leave the fleet!” pretty much immediately followed up by “Get Doc Cottle!” shows the utter lack of foresight they’re putting into this abandonment thing. Shouldn’t a decision like this be weighed carefully, not voted over in 30 seconds over a hospital bed? I don’t know if I should criticize the characters or the writer.
Baltar getting weapons made sense. When your marines are spread – out way to thin – who you gonna call? Gaius Baltar! (sing it to the ghostbusters theme. baltar’s ain’t ‘fraid of no ghost, or angel, or whatever head six is). But what I did enjoy is him meeting a child from one of his no-doubt extremely high number of sexual encounters. It was going to happen eventually. I’ve never seen Trojanalon or Trojanica condoms in the fleet, and considering Baltar’s record for nailing girls within seconds of meeting them, it’s no surprise at all there are little Gaiuses running around in the fleet.
I guess my favorite bit of the episode were the cylons flying alongside CAP. When we lost Racetrack to the failed mutiny (on a sidenote: listening to the Deadlock podcast, Ronald D. Moore revealed that in a deleted scene, pilots who bet on the wrong side of the mutiny ended up on their late-president’s ship, the Astral Queen, as prisoners), I wondered who would be the new hot background pilot, that question was answered tonight with the introduction of RED TURKEY sexy cylon #6 filling in for a Raptor in his shiny Heavy Raider. I wonder what other wacky names the flight instructor gave out to cylon pilots.
So, another beat in the musical that is Battlestar. I’ll be watching over someone to watch over me next week. See you then.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:16 am
I didn’t see anyone mention Starbuck talking about the piano… based on the next episode promo, she is hearing things. Perhaps in the same way that the Final Five heard music. Could it be her father’s music being projected in some way to her. Or is she projecting her own memories of playing the piano? It just seems very cylonic.
February 24th, 2009 at 7:59 am
Okay guys, I’ll be going to MegaCon (I’ll be going on Saturday only). Now, I have a question: Is there going to be a Frak Party in Orlando, and if so, where do I go to get the information on how to get to where its being hosted (hopefully, if its not going to be at the MegaCon. I tried to find the FrakParty.com site, but it is apparently has expired a while ago)? I would like to go to the one where Matt and Nat will be present, but if they’re going to be at MegaCon for their Frak Party, than I’ll be happy attending someone elses (and I’ll bring some sweets {like candy or Little Debbie Cakes or Chocolate Chip cookies} and a couple of jugs of Publix Brand Caffiene-Free Diet Cola). Please, someone let me know. You can e-mail me at my Hotmail account or post the info here. My e-mail: codebreaker2001@hotmail.com
February 24th, 2009 at 11:18 am
By the way, it is 4.18 not 4.16.
-Mario
February 24th, 2009 at 11:19 am
More thoughts on Baltar and his role in this episode:
I think after having seen the episode twice and talked about it and thought about it, I’ve come to some conclusions about one of BSG’s best characters – Gaius Baltar.
BSG’s best attribute is all the amazingly deep and well-written/acted characters in the show. The only problem with this is that I think sometimes it can lead to the writers not having enough time/episodes to explain every character shift, leading to seemingly random character actions. I think this is what’s happened to Baltar in season 4.5, (I will admit, a lot of Jane Espenson’s writing just isn’t that good). I think the show did a really good job in the first 10 episodes of season 4 showing Baltar’s transformation into a spiritual leader. By the end, he had fully embraced his role, as represented in my mind as the absence of Head Six to the viewers (although like I said before, I think Baltar’s been seeing her the whole time), and by his confession to Roslin during the Hub, which I felt was a great moment in the entire history of the show and a huge step for the character, after we’d seen him go through so much in the past to hide his role in the Holocaust from everyone.
But then we had Revelations, and RDM’s main goal I think in these six episodes so far has been to show what happens to a people when they lose hope and purpose. Baltar is no exception to this. Having lost Earth, I think we have seen him revert back to his old cowardly ways, shunning his cult and then returning to them only slowly. Unfortunately, the writers have poorly shown this change, with the best example coming in “A Disquiet Follows my Soul” as we watch Baltar smoke a cigarette while Tyrol and Hotdog fought, showing how he has become just as tired in his role as everyone else. And I think in many respects this lack of a clear direction for his character is due to the Mutiny Arc: there just was no real time in two whole episodes to talk about Baltar, although he did have some great moments, like at the end with Gaeta. They tried with his revelation in bed with a Six, but that was forced. So I think the return of Head Six was meant to show the viewer that Baltar needs guidance once again. He had been so close to finding peace with himself, free from guilt, just a few weeks/months earlier. To see him struggling now is sad.
All this being said, the writing of Baltar’s storyline must step up in the next four episodes or else it will become completely dull and uninteresting. We know James Callis isn’t the problem, he’ll make the best of what he’s given, just like how Michael Hogan single handedly saved that episode from the depths of “Black Market” and “Woman King” with his performance. I think they have something cool going with the Paula/Baltar command struggle, but it has to be realized. Last week’s episode just did not due a good service to Baltar’s character progression, which is a shame because I’ve always felt he was one of the most interesting and human characters in many ways.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Ok, so what I still don’t understand: what is the opera house? Or really, what does it mean? Something that’s been in my head is:
1) Starbuck with the realization that Roslin will know the truth of the opera house
2) Number 3 seeing the Final Five in the Opera House
3) Athena, Caprica, Roslin, Hera, and Baltar all within the opera house visions
and now with this piano player who is supposed to help Starbuck find out her “destiny”. Piano player…Opera House…..
Could that be where we find out the truth about the “Head” characters? I say this because if you remember in the visions, Caprica is with Baltar, though all of the characters in the vision remember it and where there EXCEPT Baltar, could it have been “Head” Baltar that Caprica was with?
Seeing that Caprica, Hera, and Baltar are all seen walking into the Main Stage of the Opera House where DeAnna saw the Final Five, I really think that the Opera House is still really important and holds all of the answers we are looking for.
I still, though, have no idea what it represents. Why would an Opera House be so important? All I keep thinking of is Starbuck and the piano player.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:44 am
You know, there’s an interesting parellel stucture going on between Roslin/Adama and Galactica/Adama. In season 2, a quietly desperate Adama allowed (Roslin was never asked, she was too out of it) a transfusion of something Cylon into Roslin, who was riddled with cancer (”in her bones”), as desperate last ditch measure to save her. Now, he’s allowing a “transfusion” of something cylon to save “his girl”, the Galactica. Somehow, I think they’ll work the same too: solve the problem for a while, but ultimatly the time is going to catch up to them.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Okay guys – I have 3 ideas about what’s going on -
1. I think Anders downloaded into Liam after his surgery – it was the nearest “body” his consciousness could go to since his body was “dead”. Liam goes into distress because of it and since Ander’s body has recuperated enough he returns to it….
2. Starbuck is a hybrid born of Daniel. Which leads to the third and final thought…..
3. Daniel is the Cylon’s one true God and is the one who has been orchestrating these events. Daniel was killed by Cavil but not before all his “resurrection” bodies were spoiled. Once Cavil killed Daniel, he didn’t have a body to download to so his “consciousness” was just roaming. The only possible route for Daniel was to use the Centaurions, bouncing around in their heads which would explain how the Centaurions came up with the one true God concept. Since Daniel is only a “entity” he can move as he pleases and thus influence all the Cylons (humanoid as well) as he chooses. Since Starbuck is half-cylon he is able to plant those images in her mind. He then uses Leoben to help drive Starbuck back to him on Earth – where he has a body and viper waiting for her “death”. He then sends Starbuck back to the fleet knowing that they will follow her back to Earth and see the destruction that occurred, hoping that they will form an alliance and break the cycle that has always occurred. But remember, the Cylon God is a vengeful one and he has not forgotten Cavil. I’m thinking that Daniel’s ultimate plan to bring Cavil back to him so he can exterminate Cavil and his allies since they won’t ever be a part of the human/cylon alliance.
Of course, all of this could be hooey……….
February 24th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Driver1914:
Liam died a long time ago, so he couldn’t download anywhere. Plus, no more download. Daniel was completely destroyed, as Ellen and John (fun to say that now) said. I like your third theory a little bit. One thing I do want to see is the centurion’s speak. Or something like that. I liked one helping Ellen out of the goo last episode. Creep that they try to act human, but they are made for killing (hm, interesting parallel with them and humans).
-Mario
February 24th, 2009 at 11:53 am
I really don’t think that kid was Baltar’s. I don’t even think it was hinted at. We should not jump to that conclusion. That was a comic scene where Baltar assumes that his greatness inspired the naming of a child, and was shown up and had to backtrack.
“I’m very honoured–”
“He was named after his father.”
“–to have the same name as his father.”
OK? The boy’s mother was not someone who was known to Baltar, and the boy’s father was just another man named Gauis. Am I wrong about this?
February 24th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
No you’re not Kaybrid. People read way too much into the show some times. I thought it was one of the better parts of the episode, seeing Baltar trying to get with some random cute woman he sees in Dogsville, especially loved the part when he placed his hand on hers when talking about combining souls or something like that
February 24th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Side note:
Anyone else notice that since Caprica has been pregnant, “Head Six” is nowhere to be found (Well we had one flash of a “Head Natalie” but eh, that was short)
And as soon as she loses the baby, she’s back.
February 24th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
@Driver1914:
there is a problem with your third thought, the centurions came up with the idea of a one true god before the humanoid cylons models were created by the final five, that why the final five struck their deal with them because they saw a potential for a change in the cycles because of the notion that it was a centurion belief which they past it on to the humanoid cylons they created. If you doubt me then watch “No Exit” again and listen to Anders story.
February 24th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
[TYCHO] ‘at some point in the script there were scenes were bringing in Centurions from the basetar to Galactica was considered by Adama (or someone), cause the marines were too few. That’s why baltar says that giving guns to him is the only *human* solution left.’
I think i’d prefer centurions to a bunch of fanatical Baltar worshippers! Well, at least i think they’d be more predictable!
Sirkenneth, think you’re onto something…Never really liked Ishay and she’s definitely made a few little comments and disapproving looks when treating Cylons. She’s the one that breaks the ‘brain dead’ Anders news to Starbuck. I was under the impression that all was fine when Cottle invited Starbuck in after the surgery. Definitely dodgy.
I also think the whole Cylon baby death event needs bringing back down to Earth/Caprica/Kobol a bit. It’s not as mystical as they all believe and I think that will rock the whole F5/S8 relationship!
Oh, anything could happen!
February 24th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Since no one bit on my “Daniel is Zack Adama Theory”…here’s another one out in left field:
What if Ellen is still on John’s side? The whole point of the ‘escape’ could have to do with finding where Boomer’s true loyalties lie. If you think about it, every conversation Ellen had with John on the baseship….Boomer was conveniently right there! Why HER? Those were some pretty bombshell like conversations yet Boomer seemed to be there as an audience for both John and Ellen.
Also, if John (and/or Ellen) suspected that Boomer knew all along how to get back to the fleet, then this plan would accomplish this too. If so, look for John to jump in on the fleet in the very near future and try to take back the FF
And, it was never answered who actually instigated the vote for the FF to jump away from the fleet. It was hinted that it was Tory, but what if Ellen planted that seed just so she could see where everybody in the FF actually stands?
It’s pretty scary to think of what the crazy version of Ellen combined with the already crazy John would do to the fleet!
Finally, as much as everyone is ragging on “Deadlock” it is nice to catch our breath; I think we’re all going to be just trying to keep up for the rest of the season!
February 24th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
After watching the episode again and listening to the podcast I feel a little bit better about it. Still disappointed, like you guys said, about the show not going with the A-story. I do have to say that this season and the end of last season has been the best acting from everyone involved. I cannot think of acting that I’ve been disappointed with from these episodes.
From the promo for next episode I have to say…frak! That (maybe) Galactica explosion it reminded me of “Water” when the water was leaked out. It is as if they are trying to go full circle, tie (almost spelled it Tigh) everything up, and give us a hell of an end. I am glad that they are doing a three-hour finally (split in two, one hour then two hours).
-Mario
February 24th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Correction to my previous statement: I will be going on Sunday, since that’s when a bulk of the BSG guests will be present according to the schedule on the website.
February 24th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Happy Birthday Eddie Olmos!
SO SAY WE ALL
February 24th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Am I the first person from Brazil ever to leave a comment? Yeah.. you guys have audience even here, at Brazilian beaches!
So, Boomer comes back and Tyrol gets all happy for a comeback.
But you are forgetting what Anders has told: Tyrol and Tori were completely in love before Cavil wiped their memories off.
So, if Tori did what she did to Cally, can you imagine what she will do to Boomer when she recovers her memories and her feelings for Tyrol??
You know… all the Ellen stuff concerning her loved one being evolved with his “daughter”, but coming from Tori’s cruel and cold mind…
Poor Boomer…
February 24th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Daniel-Kara Connection?
Someone contaminated the amniotic fluid in which they were maturing all the Daniel COPIES, Ellen said “copies,” which tells me that they DID in fact have ONE Daniel still running around being all artsy fartsy.
But what happened to him?
If the FF made the S8 towards the end of the cylon war, and John planted Saul on Caprica just after the war, then what’s to say that John didn’t ditch Daniel down on the planet too–to live and die among the humans?
So I do like the Daniel-Kara Thrace connection. I especially like it because it gives a little “Up yours, John!” from Daniel, and would be all the more sweeter if Kara is the one to end John.
Saul-Kara Connection?
But then I think about when Anders started to lose it, he said “Everyone is glowing” (and that included Starbuck). They were bathed in light like those in the opera house. (Is it significant or just a coincidence that they happened to reveal the missing 7th cylon model to the F5 at the same time?) I thought it was only the final five that are supposed to light up…
Which puts me back to thinking…who is to say that a newly placed Saul on Caprica didn’t shack up with Mrs. Thrace? (she would have loved a Viper war vet).
Kara (at the bar):”Did you see Ellen and Tigh on the wing of that bird? It was like watching my parents make out.” …She would be HALF right…
Saul’s relationship with Kara certainly had the flavour of “I hate my dad” and “I’m disgusted by my daughter’s behaviour.” Perhaps Saul used to play the piano? He certainly hasn’t been shown to have any other hobbies besides drinking–a forgotten Earth hobby?
Kara actually being the Daughter of Saul would work out just as well chronologically as Daniel, only being Saul’s daughter would explain why she was also glowing.
Anders-Kara Connection???
Although, now that I say that…Anders was a musician…and who’s to say he wasn’t placed on Caprica shortly after Saul, long enough to get with Mrs. Thrace, only to die and have to be re-ntroduced again (to be properly punished by John) before the attack on the colonies. And again, having more than just a little FF in her would help explain the glowing. Certainly twisted in that special BSG parent-child incest way we’ve been getting used to.
Oh, and how does Ellen know that John took Chief Tyrol’s confession when Tyrol though he might be a sleeper agent?
(a lot of chatting, gloating and catching up during her 18 month imprisonment?)
Galactica is patched up for one last hurrah, but Roslin, the dying leader, won’t make it to the end (she’s been dying for a long, long, long time now) and Adama will go down with his ship to defend the new human-cylon homeworld.
I’m looking forward to Adama/Captain Ahab finally facing his Moby Dick!!!
(But Baltar is still the best)
He knew about Boomer and Ellen from the very beginning (and whoever else managed to get screened by the cylon-detector), but he kept it under his hat, even on New Caprica when he could have used Ellen to get the cylons (John) to reveal their hand. But he let it all play out, even though he had a gun to his head. Now he’s back on top! However, I don’t think he knows that Ellen is back and what the cylon family reunion means…
February 24th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
The timeline of BSG is best explained in terms of creation of Cylons. There are 10 types (not referring to model) of Cylons revealed in BSG so far.
#1. Kobol Skinjob Cylons: created over 4,000 years ago by Kobol Humans (who were expelled from Kobol for creating them). The 13th tribe of Kobol. Later settled on Earth to create the second and third types of Cylons. All the Cylons who were expelled are dead.
#2. Earth Centurion Cylons: created by Skinjob Cylons living on Earth (probably NOT created by Ellen, Tigh, Tory, Anders, and Tyrol). It is unknown as to exactly WHEN they were created (it is possible that they were created on Kobol). All the Earth Centurion Cylons are Dead.
#3. The Final Five: Born *as* Skinjobs on Earth about 2000 years ago; Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, Anders, and Ellen. Resurrected after Earth’s destruction. Traveled to Earth and helped Colonial Centurions (#5 type) create Colonial Skinjobs (#8 type Cylons- Cavil, Leoben, D’anna, Doral, Simon, Caprica Six, Daniel, Boomer/Athena). Killed by Cavil, who re-resurrected them, erased their memories and introduced them into the fleet. Of these Five, Ellen died, was re-re-resurected.
#4. Caprica Skinjob Cylons: Created by Daniel Greystone and his daughter Zoe about 50 years ago (Zoe’s friend insists that the One True God gave Zoe the knowledge to create life). Created after Earth was destroyed, but before the Final Five arrived on Earth, and before the Colonial Centurions (#5). As far as we know, the only Caprican Cylon is Zoe-R, a replication of Zoe Graystone. As the series hasn’t even aired yet, much less finished, there is much left to learn, and it may well be that other Caprican Cylons exist.
#5. Colonial Centurions: Created by Daniel Graystone (and possibly others)about 50 years ago. Not much is known about their origin. These Centurions roughly resembled Earth Centurions (#2), and presumably were the first *Cylons* to worship the One True God (though there were Capricans who worshipped a One True God. Also, Ellen says that belief in the One True God came from Centurions, but she may have been referring to Earth Centurions, or both Earth and Colonial Centurions). These models evolved into the current Centurions, Raiders, and Heavy Raiders most commonly seen in fights with Galactica, Pegasus, and their crews.
#6. THE Hybrid/The Old Hybrid: Origin and date of origin unknown. Likely created by Colonial Centurions, but may be another Daniel Graystone creation. Might be the One True God. Might be Daniel Graystone.
#7. Ship Hybrids: Created by Colonial Centurions after the creation of the Old Hybrid, but before Colonial Skinjobs (#8). Function as the brain of the ships. These cylons speak in jibberish that often proves prophetic.
#8. Colonial Skinjobs: Created about forty years ago by the Final Five for the Colonial Centurions. Cavil, Leoben, D’anna, Doral, Simon, Caprica Six, Daniel, and Boomer/Athena. Colonial Centurions as well as Cavil helped create Colonial Skinjobs, though what degree of influence they had in helping the Final Five in creating this type is uncertain. Of the Colonial Skinjobs, the “Daniel” model is presumably dead and destroyed (though this model might actually be a cylon version of Daniel Graystone, or possibly Starbuck, or Starbuck’s father, or Zak Adama).
#9. Human/Colonial Skinjob Hybrid- Hera. Born of Helo (human) and Athena (Colonial Skinjob).
#10. Final Five/Colonial Skinjob Hybrid- Tigh and Caprica Six’s unborn child.
Now for answers to questions:
Q: Is Admiral Adama/Lee/Starbuck the dying leader? A: No. None of these candidates 1) are suffering from a wasting disease or 2) saw a vision of serpents. Only Roslin qualifies as the dying leader.
Q: Why did Tigh age? Explanation: There’s nothing to indicate that manipulating Tigh’s age is impossible or even difficult. This is not a continuity error. At no point has it been said that any of the Cylons DON’T age. Cavil may simply have introduced a re-resurrected Tigh in his 20s-40s. Since the science behind creating Skinjobs has yet tobe explained, we must simply assume that manipulating age is possible.
Q: If they were so advanced, why didn’t Earth have FTL technology? A: Why does Japan make better electronics and Finland makes better phones? Again, this is not a continuity error. Some cultures simply do better jobs at creating certain things. It may be that space travel was less important to Earth, who had no neighbors (unlike the 12 colonies, who had to travel through space to see each other). You don’t expect superiority in EVERY field of acheivement to be held by a single culture in real life, so why are applying such a standard to the show?
Q: Why are the Colonial Centurions following Colonial Skinjobs? Remember last season? A six named Natalie, along with the Leobens and Sharons wanted to STOP Cavil from lobotomizing Raiders and inhibiting the thoughts of Centurions. Cavil mysteriously opposed this… NOW we realize that Cavil knew what happened to Earth Cylons and Earth Centurions. Cavil wanted to inhibit Centurions and Raiders because he did not want a repeat of Earth (or the 12 Colonies, for that matter).
Q: Aren’t the Final Five actually humans who cloned themselves? A: No. The Final Five were BORN Cylon. Everyone on Earth was a Cylon. Earthlings are the descendants of the Cylons who were expelled from Kobol, also called the 13th tribe. Tigh, Ellen, Tory, Anders, and Tyrol were all BORN on Earth and were thus Cylons BEFORE they died, and were resurrected to look for the other 12 tribes.
Q: Were there any humans on Earth before it was destroyed? A: No. The first humans to set foot on Earth came from Galactica.
Q: Why did Ellen create the Earth Centurion Cylons? A: There is NO evidence to suggest that any of the Final FIve had anything to do with the creation of any Centurions.
Q: What’s the deal with the timeline? Did the exodus from Kobol and the destruction of Earth happen at the same time? A: Yes. According to Tyrol’s statement on the Algae Planet, the 13th tribe left 1,600-2,000 years BEFORE the other 12 colonies left. Why this happened is unclear. As such, around the time Earth was destroyed, the 12 colonies left Kobol. It may be that the gods, or perhaps the One True God, expelled the humans from Kobol BECAUSE Earth was destroyed. Zeus warned the humans not to return. The goddess Athena also committed suicide at this point in time. Alternately, it may be that the humans left Kobol and then returned, only to be booted out again. Alternately, it may be that returning to Kobol was PART of the Cycle that happens again and again (most recently when the 12 colonies led by Adama and Roslin left to find their new home).
Q: Was Adama’s memory changed? Why did he see Tigh 20 years ago if Tigh was a Cylon? A: Adama DID NOT have his memory changed. Cavil introduced the Final FIve gradually. Tigh was reintroduced in a younger before shortly after the end of Cylon War 1 almost 40 years ago.
Q: How did the Final Five survive Earth’s holocaust? A: They didn’t. They died, and were resurrected on a spaceship were copies of them were waiting. When they awoke in the ship, they left Earth’s system for the 12 colonies to warn them of disaster.
Q: Wait a sec. How is it that the Temple of Five/Hopes was created 4,000 years ago when the 13th tribe left 3600 years ago. A: There are 2 answers. First, the 3600 figure is for when the Pythian Prophecy was written, NOT necessarily when the 13th tribe left. It may be the 13th tribe left 4000 years ago, but was not recorded until Pythia 3600 years ago. Second answer: There is no definitive proof that the 13th tribe built the Temple of Five/Hopes.
Q: How did Cavil sneak the FF into society? A: Unknown. Here’s some speculation: Cavil may have chosen to give Tigh a background involved with the Brenik BECAUSE there were so few survivors in that battle.
Q: How did the 13th Tribe see the other tribes in Constellations. A: Take your pick: 1. It’s metaphorical, like telling someone far away that you are both looking at the same sky. 2. The 13th tribe knew where the other tribes would go if they were ever to leave Kobol.
Q: Who is Daniel? A: This is unknown, but some things can be said about Daniel. First, the exclusions: Daniel CANNOT be Baltar. Baltar has been told by Head 6 that he is not a Cylon. She may have lied, but even if she did, Baltar is known to Ellen and Anders, neither of whom mentioned Baltar being Daniel when they were questioned. Also, Cavil killed the #7 line out of jealousy, yet he could have killed Baltar immediately following the Caprica invasion when Baltar was a puppet figure (though he did suggest doing so at one point, there was no jealousy evident there, simply a desire to send a message to New Capricans about authority).
So who is Daniel? Ron Moore’s Podcast said that Daniel would feature in Caprica. We already know that the Caprican Skinjobs creator (no, not Ellen or the FF. They came later.) is named Daniel Graystone, who took his daughter’s technology of creating life (actually creating a perfect copy of a human personality/mind/soul) and applied it to organic bodies (Pre-FF Skinjob Cylons). This guy is most likely Daniel. We know that Ellen, Tigh, Anders, Tory, and Tyrol created Cylon copies of themselves. We know that Daniel Graystone created a copy of his daughter. Thus, it seems entirely plausible that a Cylon version of Daniel Greystone was created as #7, and was killed by Cavil.
Other legitimate possibilities:
-Daniel is Starbuck’s father. Evidence? Not much. Starbuck’s father is an artist, as was Daniel.
-Daniel is Starbuck. Possible as Daniel’s genetic soup was corrupted by Cavil Evidence? Starbuck is an artist. Starbuck has returned from the dead. Evidence to the contrary: No one knows how the hell Starbuck returned. If Starbuck IS Daniel, then she is probably a pawn of Cavil.
-Daniel is Starbuck AND is Daniel Graystone. If Graystone was #7, it is posible Kara is just a realignment of genes and chromosomes.
-Daniel is Starbuck’s father AND Daniel Grasytone. Now it’s just getting silly.
-Daniel is Zak Adama. Extremely unlikely. If this is so, then the only explanation is that someone swapped Zak Adama with Daniel at a VERY young age, fooling Admiral Adama and his wife.
-Daniel is simply Daniel. He is not a copy of anyone already mentioned or seen on this show or in the upcoming Caprica series, and is simply a throwaway character created to fill in a plothole/continuity error. Evidence: Ron Moore admits that there was a plot hole in the Cylon numbering. He states that he DID NOT want the show to turn into “who is the 13th Cylon?” Oops. Guess you gave your audience too much credit.
Now the REALLY TOUGH QUESTIONS (that are unanswered.
-Who is the One True God? Is it Daniel Graystone? The Old Hybrid? The jealous lord of kobol? Moreover, were there ever any Lords of Kobol, or are they lies as suggested by the Cylons? Which of the two theologies are correct, or rather which gods/God were malevolent and which were beneficent?
-Who or what is Starbuck? Was she always an oddity, or did it happen after her death? Is her father a Cylon, or perhaps the One True God?
-Who and what are the visions seen by Baltar, Caprica Six, Starbuck, and the Final Five? Are they angels, as suggested by Anders? Are they malevolent devils or Angels?
-Why did the Final Five awaken, and what does the music mean?
-What happened to Daniel Graystone, Zoe-R, and any other Caprica Skinjobs?
-What is the mystery of the Operahouse?
-Why is Hera so Special? Is it simply because she is a half-breed, or is there more to it than that? Why does she feature so heavily in th eoperahouse visions? Is the Tigh/Six baby similarly revered?
-Why did Doral want Lee to board the Galactica?
-Does Zak Adama return from the dead, and if so, how?
-Was “The Plan” to teach the Final Five a lesson in parenting?
-Why is Kara called the harbinger of death and the herald of the Apocalypse who will “lead them all to their end”? Was that a warning that Kara would lead them to the destroyed Earth, or does it mean that Kara’s return will literally destroy everyone? Does this prophecy mean that Kara will end the Cycle (for good or for bad)?
-What is “the Promised Land” as foretold by the Old Hybrid, and why is it that he prophecies destruction AND reaching the promised land? Moreover, who or what is the Angel referred to when the Old Hybrid said that they would reach the Promised Land “gathered on the Wings of an Angel”?
My guess is that Starbuck was a diversion sent by some force to stop the fleet from reaching the promised land (not Earth). But who knows?
February 24th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
And from left field…
Okay, Starbuck’s father is not Daniel. Her creator is Daniel. Daniel was an artist and Starbuck was his creation. Much like his creators, Daniel created a human, not a cylon but an actual human. He is her creator but she is not a cylon.
So, this is why Starbuck can be alive even though there are two dead bodies. Starbick dies from the heavy raider fire in the space cloud. She resurrects in the earth lab. Daniel wipes her memory and replaces it with a cover story.
Cavil knows about Starbuck but leaves the situation to irony until he realizes she died and returned. This tells him Daniel is alive. So he tries to trace a resurrection call by putting his own starbuck copy in a viper and burns her in the earth atmosphere. He hopes to find the old lab where Daniel is hiding but fails.
This solves the three starbuck problem without time-travel or LOK intervention. By the way….. a Daniel was depositted on Caprica. He lived and died without his parents knowing he was switched at birth. He died in a viper accident leaving a fiancee, a brother and parents, surname… Adama.
February 24th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Frak…
I didn’t read the comment above mine. Yes, Daniel is Zak. Incest is a running theme here. Switched at birth is also a running theme (remember Hera was switched). But I agree that Daniel Greystone is just a coincidence.
The key to all the mysteries is that it must end badly.
True loves must be exposed as flawed (Adama and Roslyn, Chief and Boomer, Tigh and Ellen, Starbuck and every other frakin’ character). So most of the love in the show is incestuous, the rest is either intertwined with jealousy or the fate of two leaders who watch their charges fade away.
Heros must be under the influence of less than pure hearts. Lee is ambitious but resentful. Zarek had bloodlust. Baltar is self absorbed. Adama lied to launch the search for earth. Roslyn would steal an election. Caprica Six was most responsible for ending the colonies defense. And the preistess, well lets just say that if human sacrifice was called for, she would have done it. Starbuck is chasing ghosts, sometimes her own.
The religions are all corrupt. LOKs are greco-roman jokes. The one true cylon god of love would order genicide.
The cycle must not be broken. Doom must befall the fleet.
A happy ending negates the need for the Caprica series. A happy ending negates the true nature of man. We destroy what we love and what we love the most is ourselves.
February 24th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Just for fun – could it be that Ellen, as a creator of the other humanoid cylons, may not really be one of the “created” cylon models herself? This would mean that the identity of “The Fifth” has not yet been revealed. Ellen may have chosen to hide this fact because it protects a secret unknown even to John Cavil. Additionally, Saul Tigh has an incomplete picture of the facts and may have made an erroneous assumption.
I think that Ellen and John Cavil bore twins together – one of whom is the true “Fifth” and the other we now know as the original “Daniel”. These twins are the personification of Artemis and Apollo respectively. Artemis, the huntress (and as such could also be considered a harbinger of death), is Starbuck and the true missing Fifth cylon. This would explain her literal “resurrection” from the crashed Viper. I suppose you could argue that Kara resurrected from “The Colony” since its location is presumably somewhere near (or on) Earth and within range of her crash. Apollo, then is Lee Adama, but his cylon identity is “Daniel”. This fulfills Leoben’s prophecy that “Adama is a Cylon”. Moreover, Apollo is closely associated with music and poetry (like the cylon Daniel) and is the patron god of colonies and of flocks (sounds like the role of the “de facto” president of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol). It also explains the deep connection that exists between Starbuck and Apollo.
It was Ellen, unbeknownst to John Cavil, who secretly planted her twins on the Twelve Colonies to protect them from John’s vengeance. This explains why John believes Ellen is the Fifth and why Ellen would willingly perpetuate the fiction. I predict that the last surviving Three will somehow be reunited with the fleet and reveal – in dramatic fashion – that Ellen is not one of the Final Five. Maybe the Three discovers Kara’s crashed viper (or the location of The Colony) and realizes that resurrection technology still exists and that becomes the reason why she is compelled to leave Earth and return to the fleet.
At the same time, Galactica, being repaired by a cylon crew and bonded together with organic cylon resin, is becoming the physical embodiment of the fusion of human and cylon and represents the ultimate fate of both races and eventual path for their mutual salvation. It also makes the tragedy of Admiral Adama absolute and complete – his beloved ship AND the three people closest to him from the beginning and the source of his strength and determination to forge ahead and save “humanity” are all cylons.
By contrast, Felix Gaeta/Tom Zarek represented the “human only” solution and it was doomed to failure. John Cavil represents the “cylon only” solution and it too is doomed to failure. The true solution can only be found through the union of both. Admiral Adama, through his pain will realize that to save humanity, he must also save the cylons and together they will build their future. Lee forshadowed Admiral Adama’s epiphany when he said to his father “Dad, what if Zak had come back to us in that Viper? If my brother had climbed out of that cockpit? Would it matter if he were a cylon? If he always had been? When it’s all said and done, would that change how we really feel about him?” It’s a painful realization for the Admiral, but humanity can no longer survive alone and Adama, as he has always done, will accept the truth so that his ship and his family (which includes the survivors across the fleet and his cylon allies) can continue to exist and enable Adama to keep his promise to find a new home.
I hadn’t seen this possibility expressed in this thread (sorry if it has and I missed it) and thought it would make for fun reading as I am in no way attempting to assert my opinion. It’s all just entertainment and not at all serious. However, there are some serious (and very interesting) BSG theorists posting to this forum and I wanted to see if anyone else has considered this as a possibility. Thanks in advance for sharing your kind opinion.
February 24th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Hi there,
I’m going to miss BSGCast!! I can’t believe it’s all coming to an end soon..
Further to said offer at the end of latest BSGCast, it’d be great if you could let folks know that there will be a Frak Party for the finale in NYC at Professor Thom’s (219 2nd Ave between 13th and 14th St). The kind organizer of this is Daniel, who put it together using Meetup. The full details are here: http://www.meetup.com/Sci-Fi-Fantasy-Fans-Marathon/calendar/9580803/
Looking forward to it!
Thank you.
February 25th, 2009 at 12:39 am
Okay, after 4 days to sink in and think on this episode…here’s my take.
First of all, right from the get go we get “trashy” Ellen back? Is Jane Espenson on crack? Just one episode ago Ellen awoke and was a more mature and enlightened individual than when she was alive with her implanted psyche from Cavil. Now all of the sudden she’s back to being a jealous, self centered and self serving bitch? To what end do we see this reversal? I get it that Tigh and herself are simultaneously each others own worst enemies and loves, but this episode totally destroyed her significance as the leader of the FF.
Adama gives BIG guns for Baltar and a group of weak minded religious fanatics? Who is supposed to agree with Adama on that call? He knows that Baltar is an easily swayed and self serving fool yet he goes ahead and arms him? He just quelled a mutiny on his ship amongst the military personnel yet he isn’t worried about an untrained and stressed out civilian population having a way to kill each other? It’s almost as if Adama is going senile and doesn’t believe the human race has a chance in hell of surviving. He’s popping pills and drinking himself to death. How funny was it when Ellen asked for a flask and Adama, not Saul, produced one? I laughed hard at the irony in that one.
Another BS moment was having the Chief’s vote to leave be like he was deciding on his lunch choice? “Waiter I’ll take the chicken fajita please, oh and by the way…I’m leaving the fleet to save my ass.” The man was lost. He made a choice to help Adama overtake the mutiny. Adama reinstated him and empowered him to do whatever he needed to do to ensure the Galactica’s survival. And now he’s gonna just decide to say frak the humans? Additionally, Boomer is back and you can see the love in his eyes, yet , he’s gonna lose her again? I don’t buy it.
The only underlying part of this episode that made sense and touched me was the point driven home by Tigh. He gets it. Humans and Cylons are fundamentally the same. They need each other to survive. It isn’t about silica relays vs. arteries or brains vs. neuro processors…it’s about two sentient and intelligent races that are in the same boat and need each other to survive and more importantly, THRIVE! The exchange between Adama and Tigh in his quarters after Liam died was heart wrenching and beautiful at the same time. The only way the two races will make it in the end is a total integration of the species.
The other redeeming part of this episode was the return of Head Six. It seems her role is to come to the aid of Baltar when he is at his duplicitous worst. One minute he wants to be noble then a skirt flies up or someone like Paula calls his bluff and he regresses to a selfish pig of a man. That is when HS sweeps in and plays both sides for Baltar and guides him into doing the right thing for the wrong reasons and vice versa. I am really looking forward to seeing her real role and how she relates to the woman Anders and the others saw prior to Earth’s demise.
I saw some needed parts of the puzzle in this episode, and the VFX totally rocked, but not nearly enough to keep me from calling Bullshit on Ron Moore and Jane Espenson. There’s only 6 hours of BSG left…we don’t have time for this kind of wasted space.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:26 am
Nicely stated Adam…
Okay, now I’m really heading off into the weeds with this theory…but since I shared my Kara/Lee as sibling cylons theory, this one doesn’t sound so far fetched by comparison and it explains Earth’s destruction and why the Thirteenth Tribe were all cylons…
To begin, we have to accept certain elements of established canon as fact (please bear with me on this part):
1. Humans originated on Earth.
2. Following an ancient cataclysm on Earth a group of humans, led by their “Gods” (a.k.a. The Olympians), escaped to the stars during the First Exodus and discovered Kobol as their new home.
3. As a reminder of their true origin on Earth, the primary zodiological constellations of the heavens as seen from the Earth’s surface were taken as a name for each group as they organized themselves into individual tribes. The constellations of the zodiac are important because they each contain a portion of the ecleptic – or the year long path of the Sun (Sol) against a backdrop of fixed stars as seen from Earth. Simply stated, where the Sun travels, the planets follow and since planets do not emit any light of their own, they can only be found in space by the location of the star they orbit – if you can find Sol, you can find Earth.
4. Cylons were created by Humans on Kobol.
5. For the better part of two millennia humanity co-existed happily with the Lords of Kobol and their cylon creations. Eventually, the priestess Elosha explains that “one jealous god began to desire that he be elevated above all the other gods, and rebelled, and this triggered the cataclysm that drove humans off of Kobol”. It can be reasonably surmised that the jealous god was “the One God” the cylons worship and the cataclysm was the rebellion of cylons against humans.
6. With Kobol in ruins, the human survivors of the Twelve Tribes of Kobol decided to abandon their homeworld. Before leaving, they would entomb Athena out of respect and in remembrance of her love.
Inside her tomb, the leaders of the Twelve Tribes created effigies of themselves using the ancient zodiological symbol of their respective tribe and arranged them in a circle around Athena’s sarcophagus inside the tomb. However, with only Twelve Tribes represented, a single critical piece to ancient Earth’s location was left intentionally missing. In time, Earth would fade from memory and into the stuff of legends (this point is critical to my explanation). Having finished that final task, they left together during the Great Exodus and founded the Twelve Colonies of Kobol.
7. The Thirteenth Tribe of cylons who sided with their jealous Lord during the war on Kobol were shunned and forbidden to follow the other Twelve Tribes. As further punishment, all written references of this tribe and the Lord they worshiped were expunged. Even the Lord’s name was forbidden to be spoken by the people of the Twelve Tribes of Kobol forever more. Only the Sacred Scrolls were spared desecration. With nowhere else to go, the Thirteenth Tribe of cylons left alone for the only destination remaining to them. With them and their vanquished Lord, went the final secret to Earth’s location in the cosmos and they began the lonely trek back to their ancient homeworld – Earth. This explains why the Thirteenth tribe set out alone from Kobol during the Great Exodus AND why only cylon remains were found on Earth. This also corroborates the 2,000 year old timeline of the remains.
8. Despite their rebellion and subsequent forced exile, the Thirteenth Tribe of cylons still longed for the love and acceptance of their human creators, just as children seek the affection and attention of their parents. However, there was no way to know in which direction the other Twelve Tribes of Humanity went and it was now impossible to locate them in the vastness of space. The Twelve Tribes would have to be led back to them instead.
9. Along their journey through space, the Thirteenth Tribe encountered a small, habitable planet, surrounded by a debris ring on the other side of the radiation cloud. On the planet’s surface, they erect the Temple of the Five knowing that the Lords of Kobol would one day deliver their lost brothers and sisters of the Twelve Tribes to this place which would reveal the truth and lead them to Earth – and re-unification.
10. And thus the prophecy of the Sacred Scrolls was fulfilled: “The Lords anointed a leader to guide the caravan of the heavens to their new homeland. And unto the leader, they gave a vision of serpents, numbering two and ten, as a sign of things to come.”
Now, here comes my speculation…
Their Lord, the one whose name cannot be spoken, was known as Ophiuchus, meaning Serpent Bearer. The vision this Lord gave to the dying leader of the Thirteenth Tribe of cylons was the description and location of a nebula that is part of a thirteenth constellation (tenth by ecleptic degree) of the true solar zodiac and it was this constellation’s ancient designation for whom the Thirteenth Tribe is named – Serpentarius.
Because this nebula cannot be seen by the naked eye on Earth it was not recorded by ancient humans and remained unknown, even after the First Exodus. Following the war on Kobol and the Great Exodus, the colonists of the remaining Twelve Tribes of Kobol deliberately erased all references to Ophiuchus and Serpentarius.
It is interesting to note that we know this nebula today as the Little Ghost Nebula (NGC 6369) and is part of the constellation Serpens, which is part of the larger constellation of Ophiuchus. This is the only ecleptic constellation missing from the accepted Zodiac, which providentially, is also the name of the missing Thirteenth Tribe. In fulfillment of Pythia’s prophecy, Serpens the Snake happens to be the only constellation “cut” into two separate pieces (the “Serpents two” from the Sacred Scrolls prophecy) The central constellation of Ophiuchus is made up of ten primary stars (the “and ten” reference from that same prophecy). This nebula lies more then 2,000 light years from Earth but would be visible to space faring travelers deep in the galaxy and their key to finding the location of Sol and Earth.
The Thirteenth Tribe of cylons ultimately fail to find their ancient homeworld and find and settle on a habitable planet and name it Earth. It is unknown exactly why they selected this particular planet. It could be a case of mistaken identity as they would have relied on the same astrological phenomenon that caused the Galactica’s crew to incorrectly confirm the constellation locations for Earth – or it could have been a mechanical failure that forced them to abort their mission prematurely – or they may have given up on Earth as just an ancient myth and decided to settle on another planet capable of sustaining them.
I also think that the vision Kara painted on the bulkhead in her quarters aboard the Demetrius that she originally thought showed the location of Earth – but later turned out to be the rebel cylon basestars – is actually a clue foreshadowing Kara’s tragedy of failing to find a “human Earth” on the planet she crashed and died on. However, like a character from a Greek tragedy, she is unknowingly following an incorrect path and it is through her failure in that path that she unwittingly sets the events in motion that fulfill the true prophecy. Kara found the real – and final – home of the Thriteenth tribe, who like herself, are all cylons. To Kara, and the other cylons of the Thirteenth tribe, it is well and truly Earth. However, the lost knowledge of the Thirteenth tribe, holds the final key to unlocking the mystery of the mythic – and wholly human – cradle of humanity – that “human Earth” yet to be discovered. Somehow, the Thirteenth zodialogical constellation, Serpentarius, will be discovered and combined with the knowledge of the other twelve constellations of the zodiac, and will finally lead the human-cylon fleet home.
The First Hybrid seems to have forseen it all, stating that “the denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough. Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into many. And then, they will join at the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning.” (Could the “angel” be Galactica, saved by the cylon goo?)
What I like about this theory – beyond the parts that seemingly fit together – is that it preserves “our” Earth as the true birthplace of humanity and provides a “naturalistic” explanation to the events seen in “Revelations” and “Sometimes a Great Notion”. I guess I see it as analogous to the ending of the first Planet of the Apes movie when Taylor (Charlton Heston) sees the remains of the Statue of Liberty – that was a much more powerful and impactful ending than Tim Burton’s remake where the statue in the Lincoln Memorial has become an ape as are all of the living inhabitants. I think it would be very “gimmicky” if it turns out that we’re all really cylons and our planet was a nuclear wasteland 2,000 years ago in the BSG universe…
Again, it’s all just entertainment and my humble opinion. I certainly do not mean to offend anyone who thinks or feels differently. I welcome your thoughts and kind feedback. Thanks.
February 25th, 2009 at 2:30 am
I have to post these theories before I burst. They have been swimming in my head for a while now. THEORY-1: When Sam was being prepared for brain surgery in the tease for “No Exit” he said alot of interesting things that I think are going a bit ignored. The most important being “Yes, we’ve been to that beach. Sometimes Ellen would be there too. Because she loved the water.” Now, we can simply perceive this as the beach where Tigh walked into the water (SAGN). That is what I would do as well, if not for the title of an upcoming episode set to air on March 6. That title being “Island in a Stream of Stars.” I believe this is referring to the “colony” Cavil was talking about. Anders may have been speaking Hybridease (the act of speaking in a string of supposed insane jibberish, while actually giving possible clues for those with way too much time on their hands to post random theories about on the internet). Think about it.
THEORY-2: I have thought for a while now about what the frak could Kara Thrace be, and I have my own theory that I am banking on. I believe that Kara is a Lord of Kobol. We focus so much on human or cylon that we tend to forget about them. Maybe I’m way off but it beats all the godsdamn Daniel theories I’ve been reading. Which brings me to………
THEORY-3: Daniel. RDM said that Dan would play into the series Caprica in the “No Exit” podcast. So come on, it has to be Greystone or atleast modeled and named after him. Since he created the colonial centurians, they probably wanted a skinjob to be modeled after their “father”, like how Cavil was modeled after Ellens’ father.
THEORY-4: “The children of the one reborn shall find their own country” It’s obviously Kara. Ellen said something interesting a little while back: “If you really believe we poisoned you with human traits like sleep, and centurian belief in a living god…..” Living God? I say again; it’s obviously Kara.
FINAL: This isn’t a theory, just an observation. Alot of people ask why Adama would give Baltar and his people guns. However I think it’s pretty obvious. Anyone else notice how we havn’t seen Racetrack, Skulls, or any other mutineer lately? The mutineers were, I’m guessing moved off-ship. So Galactica is horribly undermaned. Baltar: “Why don’t you invite the centurians over to join in the fun?” Adama would rather arm Baltar and his nymphettes, than have to accept even more from the cylons.
That’s it not going to say that I worked hard on these theories, but I did. (COUGH) alienware(COUGH) deserve it.
Love the show much,
PEACE.
February 25th, 2009 at 2:45 am
i dont know why everyone keeps saying this episode sucked… i quite liked it. very emotional. if you didnt like just give RDM a chance… hes given you guys something to argue about for the last 4 and a half years. i think he may know what hes doing
February 25th, 2009 at 2:47 am
@FilmFan28: nice theories i liked them but the third one is actually a fact that Ron Moore stated on his podcast for this episode on monday so you are a tad bit late
February 25th, 2009 at 3:00 am
I still wonder about one point that everyone seem to overlook and that is what the frak happand to the earth centurions, could it be that the holocaust on Earth was basically M.A.D?. For those of you who don’t know M.A.D stands for Mutually Assured Destruction and its a doctrine of military strategy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two opposing sides would effectively result in the destruction of both the attacker and the defender.
February 25th, 2009 at 6:13 am
Hate to off Battlestarian topics here, but sorry “Murducai” but M.A.D was neither a strategy nor a doctrine, it was a basic realisation by both the Cold War superpowers of the United States and the Soviet Union, that if either of them were to begin a nuclear strike on the other, that both sides had enough nuclear armaments with the ability to launch them that would insure Mutually Assured Destruction. I don’t wish to be pedantic about this, but it was a fact not a strategy that generals thought up in their spare time, it was inevitability, which is why Kennedy resisted the call so rigidly in the ‘62 Cuban Missile Crisis from his generals to attack and destroy the approaching Russian Fleet which would have set off a chain reaction leading to M.A.D. I did 20th Century History at “A” and Degree level.
And yes, that is what happened to the earth centurions, they blew the mutually assured frak out of each other, in the destructive sense…so as not to be confused.
February 25th, 2009 at 6:17 am
Additional: Sorry filmfan28, but while your theories are mightily intriguing, laying yourself with your legs spread waiting to be taken by the alienware prize isn’t exactly gracious nor dignified. I’d just stick to making your interesting comments and leaving it to those with the power to decide who gains the recognition…not practically begging for it *cough cough*.
February 25th, 2009 at 7:04 am
Alright, I am tired of the whole Daniel=Daniel Graystone theories. Let me point out a fact that people have apparently forgotten, a fact that Sam stated before his surgery.
FACT: The Five of the 13th Colony left Earth. And by the time they reached the 12 Colonies, the Cylon War was on.
FACT: They offered the ability to be humanoid to the Centurions in order to stop the war.
FACT: The Five of the 13th Colony made the S7 Cylons after the Cylon War.
Now, since Daniel Graystone, as we see in “Caprica”, is going to be the man who invents the Cylons, he can’t very well be the missing Cylon. Why? Because of the Final Five did not arrive at the Colonies until near the end of the war and they didn’t start developing the humanoid Cylons of the S7 until sometime after that. So, Daniel being Daniel Graystone is not possible because, at that time, they Final Five are still in mid-flight to the 12 Colonies and the Cylon War hasn’t occured.
So, in other words, the Daniel=Daniel Graystone theory can’t be possible. What could be possible is that the Final Five named the Daniel model after Graystone, as a way of paying tribute for his work in developing the Centurions that the Final Five helped (it’d be no different than how there are high schools named after Martin Luther King Jr.). To quote the MCP from “Tron” and the Hyrbids on the show, in relation to this issue: “End of line.”
February 25th, 2009 at 8:48 am
@ Tiberius1111…by George I think you’ve got it! I love how you laid that out. You cover all your bases and give very plausible and hard to argue points. I’m not sure how much the mythos will still be playing here but again well said. You have managed to get down all the thoughts that probably most of us have scrambling our brains but just couldn’t coherently assemble…kudos, I like it!
February 25th, 2009 at 9:29 am
@ CB2001… S7??? don’t you mean S8. Also I like the idea of this Daniel being Starbucks dad – just imagine it in the final episodes… A Viper appears out of nowhere and lands on Galactica (if it’s still around by then), the pilot climbs out as everyone waits wide-eyed on the deck. Then the pilot removes his helmet and everyone gasps…it’s Dirk Benidect !!! LOL. Now that would be classic.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:07 am
About Tigh and Caprica’s baby dying from lack of “love” I just had a thought
some others may have mentioned (I haven’t read down the comments yet);
Didn’t Leoben kidnap Starbuck because he wanted her to fall in love with him so that
they could have a baby together. Wasn’t that a plot point a couple seasons back, that they
couldn’t procreate without love?
February 25th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I actually liked this episode better than the previous one. Sure, not a lot happened, but you really got to know Saul and Ellen. There was never really time for that in the past. There were also lots of subtle hints that I thought were frakkin’ awesome. The most obvious was Adama’s speech about how the Galactica would look the same on the outside, but he doesn’t know what the frak it is anymore. The obvious allusion is to Tigh, although it wasn’t explicit. Adama is hinting at his feelings towards Tigh, adding more to the “i hate you, but you’re my best friend” angle.
The other big thing that hit me was Tigh’s statement about not having to say “I love you” if you already feel it. He was still holding onto his tough guy attitude, even though he eventually said it. Compare this with his reaction to Ellen dying. I think Saul still loves Ellen more, and I’m pretty sure they’ll go along these lines as the idea of ‘a love that transcends the ages’ is the cliche way to go…and yes, i’m saying a lot of BSG has been cliche so far. Don’t get me wrong, I still love it. This would also fit nicely into the ‘Liam dying because a lack of love’ angle, which–for the record–I think is a preposterous way for the show to go and will only lead down a slippery slope.
Now for some speculation. In this episode, we see Baltar shifting from a cylon lover to a cylon hater. Correction, considering the amount of cylon frakking Baltar does, he can’t be a cylon hater, but he’s certainly turning into a human activist. Look at Caprica 6 who distrusts humans and wanted to go to the basestar. Now that her baby is dead, there is no link to the humans. No reason for civility. No reason for peace. Let’s dig up some old bones now. The opera house–this wasn’t a literal prediction of the future. I believe it represents the two factions “Baltar and his human activists” and “Caprica and her cylon activists” trying to either get rid of Hera and ruin the cooperation of cylon and man. This is probably why we have both Roslin and Athena trying to stop them(Roslin maintaining the cooperation for the good of the fleet, and Athena just trying to save her baby). I recall the final 5 looking over the entire prophetic vision. Perhaps they just want their children to decide on their own without any interventions.
Oh, and Starbucker…that’s right. They couldn’t procreate without love (and glowing spines!!).
February 25th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
@ noel- As of right now, we do not have any indication that there is even 1 copy of Daniel that survived the sabotage by Cavil. So, when I say S7, I mean the seven active models with multiple copies. Until we see a copy of Daniel, we cannot say that there’s even a single copy active.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
vice_versed: You don’t wish to be pedantic but you sure do come off as one, at least Morducai explained what the general idea of M.A.D is with out over doing it like you did. No one here is interested in the history between the former soviet union and the untied states during the cold war. Next time you try to correct someone do it with a little more tact.
ohh, and its not nice to practically calling another fan a whore like you did with fimfan28 not nice all. He was just trying to up his chances for the prize. You might took a 20th history “A” degree class but apparently you took an “F” degree class in tact and human relations.
February 25th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Wow, Treehugger, what you said really interests me:
“In this episode, we see Baltar…turning into a human activist. Caprica 6 who distrusts humans and wanted to go to the basestar. Now that her baby is dead, there is no link to humans. No reason for civility. No reason for peace. Let’s dig up some old bones now. The opera house–this wasn’t a literal prediction of the future. I believe it represents the two factions “Baltar and his human activists” and “Caprica and her cylon activists” trying to either get rid of Hera and ruin the cooperation of cylon and man. This is probably why we have both Roslin and Athena trying to stop them (Roslin maintaining the cooperation for the good of the fleet, and Athena just trying to save her baby). I recall the final 5 up in the balcony looking over the entire prophetic vision. Perhaps they just want their children to decide on their own without any interventions.”
This is the first time I have ever heard anything plausible about the opera house visions. Thank you! Brilliant!!
The final bit of the vision has Caprica (representing the cylons) and Baltar (the humans) going with Hera (both, the hybrid) through the golden door, into the future, if you will. Athena and Roslin don’t go through. This means they will die – we knew this about Roslin, but now we know about Athena.
If this interpretation is true, Baltar will live. He will get to pork all the Sixes he is able to, to create hybrids (on the ‘real’ Earth?). He will love them all and we already know the Sixes all love him. Mucho Baltar babino.
Now I just want to know what Starbuck is, who else will die.
Re. Daniel ever showing up, we have RDM basically nay-saying that, plus the prophesy doesn’t mention 8, it mentions 7!
“The seven, now six, self-described machines”….. it’s now six because Deanna stayed on Earth.
Ahhhh, two more days, brutal.
February 25th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
@CB2001 – sorry friend, I must have misunderstood what you meant. Obviously at this point in time we don’t know if any of the Daniels are still alive – personally I don’t think we’ll see any of them – What confused me was when you said -” FACT: The Five of the 13th Colony made the S7 Cylons after the Cylon War.” this was what I thought should read S8. They of course became 7 when Cavil killed all the Daniels. But I totally agree with you on the Daniel=Daniel Graystone theories.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Brilliant Episode !
I love this writer and her non-patronising style.
Regarding Boomer finding the fleet: As a poster above mentioned, it seems Cavil knows where the fleet is, but has not engaged it because resurrection is not possible and we know he is afraid of “extinction”. What Cavil wants now more than anything is for the FF to re-group and rebuild a Hub.
In regard to the loss of Liam, it seems evident that love and ’something more’ is required for Cylons to procreate. Which brings me to the ‘A’ story I feel exists in this episode.
The love that is missing to save Liam is in abundance for the Galactica.
Ellen’s ploy to reveal the ‘cracks’ in Tigh’s love for Caprica 6 and Liam succeeds, but also brings to light the love and bond Tigh has for his human friend (Adama) and the entity that binds them: The Galactica. Here there is no doubt or need for reassurance.
Adama tells Tigh the Galactica needs his help in order for the ship to survive, “Laura,Lee know it…I see it”. The camera cuts back to a close up of Tigh and it is at this point that Liam’s fate is sealed. The result is played out in the scene later where Ellen has gathered everyone to hear her majority vote. This episode became a choice between Tigh’s bond to the Galactica and Tigh’s pure cylon child. He believes in the Galactica, but he doesn’t believe in Liam and says as much when he declares, (paraphrasing) ‘human/human doesn’t work and cylon/cylon doesn’t work!’
Therefore Liam was sacrificed. And Ellen knew it had to happen in order for the cycle to end. This is a terrific irony on Christianity. In essence Tigh is Caprica’s creator (Ellen’s appalled which is commentary I suspect partly by the writer at the dominant patriarch religion, but I digress), but unlike Christianity where the child is the saviour of mankind, this child fails to have a chance at saving Cylonity.
For every shot of Caprica’s child on the ‘machine’ you get the repeated shots of Adama examining the Galactica.
A six mentions in the offer to Caprica 6 about living on the base ship that there is nothing to worry about and that they could all survive on the ship indefinitely. I feel when the human/cylon joining is complete on the Galactica with cylon FTL and Anders as Hybrid, the future human/cylon race will continue it’s journey to Earth or Kobol or whatever RDM has in mind also indefinitely. Ultimately the Galactica seems to have a destiny after all. And Anders knows it – IMHO.
Regarding Anders:
The doctor made an interesting comment/joke to the FF saying,”…and don’t unplug him”. I see this as foreshadowing of Anders as Galactica hybrid (mentioned by some last week). I am not convinced that Liam is now within Anders. I think the cut to Anders ‘goin on line’ would have had to have been quicker, where after watching the episode again it was not instantaneous enough and in fact two or more scenes occurred in between. Anders coming back on line felt more like a seperate step in its own plot direction.
Overall this IMO was a very human as well as subtle comedic episode. This writer manages to be funny within the story lines and tone. I thought it a great accomplishment when the Fabulous Final Five are having their rather pathetic squabble around Anders and then the camera turns to Ellen, “…Caprica 6 is pregnant?” Again hilarious and even more so with Tigh’s panicky quick head turn her way. My eyes weren’t rolling but my body was – on the floor.
She writes women and Baltar (in particular) brilliantly, “…And GUNS!, more guns, bigger guns!” Hilarious and great phallic humour. The writer is able to poke fun at her own gender and the whole ‘penis envy’ thing. Watch the girls behind Paula then cheer, “YEAH!” (I’m still laughing).
I also loved the poignant scene at the end where Laura and Bill notice the pictures of fallen skin jobs on the remembrance wall/hall. And that here they realise the inevitable joining has already begun. All aboard the unique vessel Galactica.
I think the job of writing a very difficult episode in order to follow some tough acts as well as set up what’s coming was handed to the right ‘man’ for the job and to her I say, Well Fracking Done!
February 25th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
@ apzworld88… I think you have an interesting point there. As soon as Baby Liam came into existence, Head 6 disappeared. As soon as he started dying, Head 6 comes back. Coincidence? Or is it that the idea of a Cylon-Cylon child interfered with the Heads’ (or whoever/whatever is the actual controlling entity behind the Head characters) plans.
Now that Baby Liam is dead..Hera is the focal point and it all goes back to the Opera House Visions. Its as though, Baby Liam’s existence put an end to that destiny. Since its been proven that Cylon-Cylon babies are not a viable option…the “Heads” have decided to come back and exert their influence again.
February 25th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
@noel – No problem.
February 25th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
I know it’s a little bit late in this point to mention it but i just got done reading Dirk Benedict’s “Starbuck: Lost in Castration” for the first time and oh boy is he a chauvinist bitter old man. I also read that Richard Hatch got the part of Tom Zarek after he bitched a lot to the BSG creators, is that true?. I thought he likes the way they re-imagined Battlestar Galactica.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Why was Caprica 6 in Dogsville in the first place?
Why is a Dogsville an excuse for all things bad? All wearing red shirts down there? Or what?
Why John/ Cavil did not erase memories of F5 completely from all cylon models? As it is obvious he did change their memories as well…
Guess there has to be someone else with a high stake and enough interest to plant everything around and orchestrate the whole deal…
Why F5 discusses who slept with whom, is there enough love in the room and if they need to get off the ship instead of asking Ellen all kinds of questions to figure out what the frak was Anders talking about? Why doesn`t she start talking, as it is a biggest deal of them all?
Why would Tyrol want to go off the ship? Well, you know that is just convenient inconsistency… Cool how they stripped them of any human relationship in a meanwhile. No Callie, no baby, just Boomer back… And, boy, does he choose his women bad! Boomer the Sleeper; Callie the Unlikely, Tory the Useless Bitch… Not to mention Callie shoots Boomer, Tory air locks Callie… Man, who`s the hottest guy in the fleet, or what?
))
Boomer on the trial for shooting Adama as a sleeper agent, not even knowing who or what she was? To me that sounds like a very special circumstance and enough to relieve her of her guilt. But no trial for Caprica, who single handedly (well, more single-bodily) provided a key to destroying all things human? Not that anyone seems to be aware of that so much… Or not that anyone asks about her and Baltar before the attack… there were some clues to follow, and make the leap to: she got keys, who had them to give? And was seen quite close to her…
Or, is Boomer going to be accused by rebel cylon? For taking the other side?
Baltar is still slimy son of a bitch, and that is great. But would prefer him to be slimy sharp-minded weasel anytime to this hypocritical and basically helpless leader of a bunch of idiotic women… (oh, maybe he is that manly man Dirk Benedict is missing so much?) Give him an edge! Don`t be afraid to make him evil! Or at least still conniving and calculating…
Come to think of it, no one is really any evil anymore… Maybe Cavil (call him John as much as you want)
Baltar asked for guns and got them? Right! Starting to think Gaeta was right to try and take it over, although I still think that was just for the pettiness of you-took-my-leg! and not for I-want-it-all-better-for-everyone! But at least he chooses his allies as well as Chief chooses his women
)
Why oh why did you kill Zarek? He at least had some idea of what he wants and how to get it
well, not that he did the right thing, or a smart one… but I wanted him to be there for the end.
Adama became drunk?! Roslin, please die already, or start doing your job. Well, both of you as a matter of a fact. They have no clue of what is going on on the ship or around it.
Cylons sticking up they photos in the memory hall? And that is fine? Bunches of them walking the ship, doing all kinds of jobs, and that is fine? But Caprica goes to Dogsville with the hood(?!) and gets beaten?
Did not get her and Tigh to begin with, well, sex maybe, that`s what she is, and the sheer weirdness of it was cool enough, but the kid?! Never been sold on love thing between them either… Saul loves Ellen. No matter what.
Have you noticed they have been killing off previous Final 5 suspects? Dee, Gaeta, Zarek…
Who`s Daniel, again? Why do we need him? Can not possibly be Daniel Graystone, unless maybe only his consciousness was preserved (Neuromancer style) as he was the one who created first cylon, meaning Ellen that was traveling through space could not have made him before he made his cylon… But then she decided he`s cool guy and got him back. But he would know a bunch. Oh, well. He is The Creator for centurions anyway, so probably the God (false, it seems)
Tory made me want Billy come back from the begining! Billy! poetic and gentle soul, almost a child, but very smart and capable… Aha! I found who I would like to see as Daniel back to life, though still don`t know why we need Daniel all of a sudden… Probably not going to happen, though.
Get Anders back. They got the idea of who the F5 were to soon, and now trying to keep off the final meeting of all 5 of them…
Kara and Baltar. Something else, but not cylon.
Caprica did not know Baltar survived the explosion since she was busy dying herself. But he was there on Caprica way too soon to be replaced by cylon. In any form. And he has no clue about what happened. Kara crushed on Earth, and she doesn`t have a clue what had happened either.
Btw, since when are basestars separated according to the models? I thought that split happened only after the civil war. So Cavil had some spare F5s stashed somewhere neatly?
And can we please have zesty bitchy cool xena no3 back? Towels were falling off all around her, including freaking hoods of F5.
Will F5 finally do something?
Give Kara some guns.
Well, give Lee some guns.
One way or the other, the center of it all is a hot blond
))
))
My, old Starbuck would indeed have had quite a ride on this battlestar or well, basestar
enough. I sound about as consistent as this sorry excuse for an episode.
February 25th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
THOUGHTS ON RESURRECTION:
* Cylons need to be close (well, fairly close at least) to a Resurrection Ship in order to ‘download’ their consciousness into a new body.
* The F5 reinvented Res.Tech on Cylonised-Earth. They knew ’something bad’ was coming, and re-discovered what their forefathers had invented. They didn’t need the Tech because they could procreate with ease.
[Ellen made an impassioned speech to Roslin, telling Laura to imagine what life would be like if only FIVE of the entire population had survived after a holocaust. Who made the decision of who lived and who died? Why did Tory, Tigh, Tyrol, Anders and Ellen get to live? Why not the guy who sold Tyrol the fruit? Or Tyrol's optometrist? Or Sam's girlfriend? Ellen and Saul, and apparently Tory and Tyrol were coupled. Where was Sam's perfect match? Anyhoo...just thought I'd throw that question into the mix...]
* If Res.Tech only works when there is a spare body for the dead Cylon’s brain to jump into, how exactly did the F5 resurrect? Did they create clones? How did they know it would work? Did they just take it on faith? Did Tyrol take that opportunity to create his clone with 20/20 vision?
[A common theory that seems to pop up every so often is the idea of Kara resurrecting on Earth in the facility that the F5 created. Yeah, there's a facility there. It's two thousand years old and probably a little dusty, and maybe a little out of date in software. Here's the big question to poke a hole in that theory: where would they get a copy of Kara's body? BUSTED]
[Another theory along the same vein is Kara being Cylon.7-Daniel's daughter, and therefore a Cybrid (note - NOT a hybrid) and able to resurrect. First off, see my above theory on the lack of body to download into, BUT...if cybrid's were able to download, why was there such a BIG fuss about Hera being sick when she was on the basestar with Boomer and Caprica? Why not just kill the kid and have her download if cybrid's are capable of downloading? (Then again, to kill my own arguement, the EarthCylons were able to download and they were technically cybrid's too...) Food for thought.]
* The F5 know how to create of Res.Tech. According to Cavil, the other 7(/8) don’t know how to make it work. After forty years of seeing how to do it, they never thought to reverse-engineer it? To perfect it? To stop waking up in a vat of goo? Seriously?
* How exactly did the Res.Ships work? How did they know when a Cylon died? Was there some sort of warning system? Was there a time limit that needed to be met in order to download the old consciousness into a new body? After a few days, what would happen? What is, when Kara was kiling Leoben down on New Caprica every day, he just ran out of bodies… Early in the season after Kara tortures Leoben, he worries that he’s too far away from a Res.Ship to download. Obviously he wasn’t, but how far is too far? Space is a pretty big area…
* When Ellen died on New Caprica…Cavil just happened to have a spare body of a F5 in his Baseship? Another clone? How many clones did the F5 make? And, no one had seen these random five Cylon bodies? Maybe Cavil had put a sign on the door ‘Do Not Enter: Under Pain of Boxing’.
THOUGHTS ON KARA:
I’ve wondered for a loooong time if Kara is a cybrid. I thought perhaps Leoben would be revealed as her father, and seeing as there’s a massive squick factor involved in a lot of the revelations from the Ellen/Cavil, Tigh/Caprica, the idea still could have some merit. I doubt it.
Kara in Deadlock: her whole two lines. If her lines weren’t important, she’d have been cut for time. She asks about the piano, and comments on watching Saul and Ellen kissing, as being like watching her parents. Everything happens for a reason. Having seen the pic of Kara at the piano with the random faceless guy, it makes us wonder if he’s going to be a big part, or just a red herring. Also…the comments about Ellen and Tigh…prophetic? Or complete herring?
One must also question the events of Maelstrom. Kara flashes to incidents and has Leoben following her around like the Ghost of Christmas Past. Kara realises that he is not Leoben. So, does that mean that he is just another ‘Two’ or is he someone new. Someone like Daniel, perhaps?
It’s also interesting to look back on Season One and see Kara’s ability to fly the downed Cylon Raider. She got it up and flying in about twelve hours. Compare that to Tyrol spending a few weeks on it, and not being able to get it to move. Interesting, no? (Of course, back then, no one knew Tyrol would be a Cylon, not even RDM, so maybe I’m just reading too much into it)
I found it interesting in ‘Blood on the Scales’ when Six is trying to convince Roslin to jump the Basestar, she lists says “Gaeta will airlock Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, THEN, he’ll start with the rest, Kara, Helo, Adama.” Note the use of surnames, and Helo’s callsign. And amidst it, Kara’s first name. It struck me as a little odd. Why would Six (not sure which Six, but NOT Caprica) call her Kara when she mentions everyone else by last name or call sign. Maybe not significant, but certainly a little strange.
THOUGHTS ON THE SIGNIFICANT SEVEN
I really think throwing a 13th Cylon into the mix this late in the game was a little weird. Seventy odd eps, and it’s been “There are 12 Cylon models”, and now…what, there’s another? Yes, they needed to explain the abscence of a No.7, but throwing it in this late in the game? We probably would have taken it on faith that maybe Ellen just didn’t like the number 7. Maybe she was superstitious. hell, they could have said that something went wrong with an early model, it was destroyed completely, and Sharon took its place, and they named them 8’s. Rather than suddenly throw a 13th Cylon at us. *sighs* Unplanned, methinks.
With very few eps to go, there really does need to be a LOT more explanation from RDM about a lot of things. I for one, am looking forward to seeing where this will lead.
February 26th, 2009 at 2:59 am
Katie, very thoughtful and insightful post…
I liked your comments on Resurrection – especially regarding the first resurrection machine the F5 constructed at “the Colony” on (or very near) Earth. Yes, after 2,000 years it would be quite dusty, but in BSG’s fictional universe, it could still work like a charm (cylons don’t cut corners in manufacturing like humans do). Wouldn’t it be plausible that a copy of Kara’s body – or the ability to clone it – would exist at the Colony if she was one of the twelve cylon models? Your other comment about Kara being a natural pilot of the Cylon Raider may prove to be a providential clue to Kara’s true cylon nature (even if it was unintended at the time). I am also not entirely convinced that Ellen is one of the F5 (I explained this in an earlier post). I think the last Three (a.k.a D’Anna Biers) on Earth – the only cylon still alive who saw the F5 – will return to the fleet and expose Ellen’s fiction. In truth, I would prefer that Kara be a cylon instead of pulling some hokey eleventh hour explanation out of the air like she’s a Lord of Kobol or a Being of Light (TOS) or Daniel’s daughter, or gods-forbid-it something as yet unknown (what’s with the piano?). That would be the Star Trek solution where someone comes up with a nonsensical techno-babble plan at the last minute deploying an “interplexing tachyon pulse” right before the ship explodes and saves the day just in time for the commercial break! BSG has played the “anti-Trek” for four years and it would a shame to cop out at the very end of the series. Anyway…
Now that I am “all in” with respect to my alternative theoretical ramblings about the conclusion of the BSG series, I guess I’ll add a little commentary about the Thirteenth Tribe’s representative constellation of Serpentarius – now known as Ophiuchus – or the Serpent Bearer.
It is an interesting aside that the figure of the Serpent Bearer is widely believed – by modern scholarship- to be the healer Asclepius. Asclepius, the son of Apollo, was tutored in the healing arts by the Centaur Chiron and became so skilled in medicine, he could restore the dead to life (sounds a lot like resurrection). Out of fear of making all humans immortal, Zeus killed Asclepius with a thunderbolt made for him by the cyclops. In retribution for assisting Zeus, Apollo killed the cyclops. As punishment for his vengeful acts, Zeus cast Apollo from the heavens to live among humans whereby he would become the patron defender of flocks and herds and protector of colonists (sounds a little like the role assumed by BSG’s Apollo also living among humans).
Earlier interpretations of this constellation depicted Apollo battling the serpent Python. This is noteworthy because the great serpent Python was sent by the goddess Hera (hmmm, it’s interesting to see her name pop up here) in a jealous rage against Leto who became pregnant with the twins Artemis and Apollo by the god Zeus. In fact, the Pythia (aaah, a connection to the Sacred Scrolls) at the Oracle of Delphi derives her name from Pytho, the Greek name of the place where Python’s rotting corpse was left. It was believed that gasses emitted from the cave where the rotting serpent lay gave the priestess Pythia her prophetic visions. In addition to being hailed as the patron God of Delphi (Pythian Apollo), Apollo also functioned as the patron of poetry and music (sounds a little like a Cylon named “Daniel” – could they be one and the same?).
Clearly, the constellation Ophiuchus is tied to the Thirteenth Tribe which also has apparent mythological ties to resurrection, Apollo, Hera, and Pythia. I also believe this constellation is specifically referenced by the Sacred Scrolls prophecy that states: “The Lords anointed a leader to guide the caravan of the heavens to their NEW HOMELAND. And unto the leader, they gave a vision of serpents, numbering two and ten, as a sign of things to come”. Ophiuchus – combined with the knowledge of the other twelve ecliptic constellations – holds the key to the location of the ORIGINAL “human Earth” and cradle of humanity (I explain this connection in detail in an earlier post). I believe this is not coincidental and will somehow play into the final explanation of the cycle of eternal recurrence within the BSG universe…we’ll know soon enough.
It’s funny, in Glen A. Larson’s original imagining of the Cylons, they were the creation of an organic race of reptillian beings who – like RDM’s Cylons – rebelled against their creators and killed all of their organic overlords. I don’t like the reptillian cylons as well as RDM’s human-cylon connection, so long as we don’t eventually learn that inorganic life (cylons) came first and they created organic life (humans) in the BSG universe. That sounds more like the forced plot of a bad Twilight Zone episode (IMHO) – though this may be the explanation RDM gives us in the end. When you’re making up the “facts” as you go, anything is possible…
Whatever happens on screen during these last few hours really doesn’t matter – the singular purpose of the show is to entertain. Despite the highs and lows of individual episodes, or the frustrations of the programming schedule, or the storylines that played out differently than I had imagined (or hoped) – I have most certainly been entertained.
As ever, I welcome your thoughts and kind feedback. Thanks so much.
February 26th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
TreeHugger deserves FAN OF THE WEEK.
If you haven’t read through the posts, TreeHugger said (above) basically:
Caprica is going to surely stir up more anti-human let’s-get-outta-here sentiments amongst the cylons. At the same time, in this episode, we see Baltar…turning into a human activist of sorts, and armed nicely. (Big guns! More guns!)
Now, let’s turn to the recurring opera house visions, still a mystery and surely a key to the ending of the story.
The visions feature Roslin and Sharon chasing little Hera, and then Hera, Caprica and Baltar going through a golden door, through a threshold and disappearing.
This represents the two factions “Baltar and his human activists” and “Caprica and her cylon activists.” In the near future, they will perhaps both be trying to either get rid of Hera and/or ruin the cooperation of cylon and human.
This is probably why we have both Roslin and Athena (Sharon) in the visions, trying to stop them (Roslin maintaining the cooperation for the good of the fleet, and Athena just trying to save her baby).
Recall also the Final Five glowing up in the balcony looking over the entire scene in the prophetic vision. Perhaps they just want their creations (children) to decide on their own without any interventions?
In any case, the final bit of the vision has Caprica (representing the cylons) and Baltar (the humans) going with Hera (representing both) through the golden door, into the future, if you will.
If correct, this means the show will end with the cylon and human factions coming to peace and begin a new era of mixed race existence.
I add:
Sharon/Athena and Roslin don’t go through the door. This means they will die – we knew this about Roslin, but now we know that Athena won’t make it.
If this interpretation is true, Baltar will live. He will get to sleep with all the Sixes he is able to, and create lots of little Baltar and Baltarette hybrids (on the ‘real’ Earth?). We already well know from the past that he loves them all and we already know the Sixes all love Baltar (love being needed for hybrid procreation). Mucho Baltar babinos!
Where does Starbuck fit? And what will happen with Boomer and Chief? Will Starbuck and Apollo get to live happily ever after? Stay tuned.
February 26th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
@Kattie loved what you had to say and makes me wonder, could there be another Cybrid in the mix. (Love Cybrid lol)
If a spine that’s lit up means that the cylon got pregnant, couldn’t we say that Caprica got pregnant with Baltar’s baby in the miniseries. So could that mean when Caprica died from the nuclear explosion (which I’m still HIGHLY convinced Baltar did as well, just don’t know how he escaped) their Cybrid died, or could it have downloaded into some sort of open body.
See they REALLy need to explain downloading. I’m still really confused as to how this happens.
And really, what is the difference between skinjob and human. Well apart from light up spines. I know Matt and Nat mentioned this question in the video, and it has been attacking my brain for seasons now. WHAT IS the difference? How do they download?
February 26th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
I have heard the phrase “original 13th tribe” several times. I think somewhere along the lines we are going to have to tribes that went their own way. The original thirteenth tribe that blew itself up and a thirteenth tribe that left when the other twelve left. The time frame says that there have to be two 13th tribes.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Has anyone thought that Sam’s “coming back” after being more or less brain dead could have been Liam “downloading” into him somehow? Just throwing it out there.
February 26th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
BTW, if you haven’t had a chance, check out the Battlestar Galactica tour. It’s an amazing preservation of the Galactica sets (BTW, Adama had World Books on his shelf): http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/tour/
February 26th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
I seem to remember Sam taking the role of the one to help people cross over to the other side. Even before he was outted as a FF, he did that with an Eight as well as a Six or Barolay I believe in “Faith.” Perhaps Sam was aware that Liam was doomed and went with him to help the infant cross over. After his job was done he “came back” so to speak.
February 26th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Sorry, hit enter before I was done…
Yeah Sam said, “It’s okay, I’m here with you.” That would be awesome for Sam’s purpose to be a guide to the other side for those who depart.
February 26th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Having read the first few posts, i am getting a distinctly negative feeling about this episode, which in my opinion, while admittedly not being one of the best, it was still a good episode. It did different things, furthered sub-plots, and dropped hints, as to what is comming. Ok yes there are only five hours of Battlestar Galactica left, but at the same time, to have every single episode filled to the brim with action, would just be plain BORING!!
This episode didn’t need to have an A story; there were enough in the two stories, and furthering of other sub plots here to occopy a webisode series, yes ok the way it was combined into this episode could be considered as trying to create something out of spare parts (the blackbird not as good), but the important continuity was still there.
Ultimatly this episode, showed a fleet full of people and cylons, who are unsure as to the path they should take, trying to integrate their societies, in the midst of political unrest, as the government and military leaders face personal crisis amongst those who have lost their identity. They have yet to decide, divide and fall or unite and stand.
There is loads of stuff on various theories i have, but i have no time at the moment. maybe tommorow after the next episode.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Boomer is being tried for Treason next episode? Joseph Adama would have a field day representing Boomer…but I wonder how ‘Double Jeopardy’ applies to a Cylon with thousands of copies.
Also, FYI, there’s this new show of Fox called Dollhouse and so far I’ve seen two Battlestar Galactica actors on it! Helo and Romo were on last weeks episode. Just thought it was cool to see these actors who we all totally respect now moving on to other roles.
February 27th, 2009 at 2:58 am
I agree with Adam. Tiberius1111, you have laid out one of the best and most plausible theories regarding the “big picture” of BSG.
Still some details that could be tweaked, but I definitely like the idea of humans originating on a “real” Earth, a catacysim causing them to leave for Kobol, then them creating the “Final Five-type” cylons, the war ensuing because of the jealous lord of kobol (head of the Cylons), and the 13th and 12 splitting and heading their separate ways across the cosmos.
It sort of makes sense that the Cylon believe in a One True God, as in, the 13th Lord of Kobol only, and not the other 12 or however many other Lords there were.
Though some things are iffy even about this theory. Why would humans make a Cylon race on Kobol, when more than likely their “Earth” was devasted by a war with cylons that rebelled.
I still think that if RDM really wants to make an impact on the audience of THIS world, in our own real lives, then he needs to link it to our world as much as possible.
We are much closer to cloning human beings than creating cybernetic organisms or robots.
I have a feeling that the people on Kobol who created the Cylons are actually Clones who left the homeworld of the humans after a war with them. and there were 12 “models” of clones that made it to Kobol, and hence the 12 Lords of Kobol.
The cloning would explain “organic memory transfer” and it’s possible the 13th Tribe was a tribe of human clones. Now whether the clones were created on Kobol or on the previous homworld before Kobol, not really sure.
But to me it makes more sense to gradually progress from humans to clones to Final Five cylons who helped the Centurions made by the humans evolve into Skinjobs (Cylons) and then have the lines mix to create a race of hybrids and to eventually forget all distinction and call the new race “humans” once again…
February 27th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Tootie: I really like your theory.
I was hoping to see Baltar and Caprica get together again… and I have a feeling that if what you say is true, then they WILL get back together again. And why not? Shouldn’t Hera be “THEIR” child? It’s as though they forgot about each other entirely. You don’t just brush someone out of your life, not in such a situation.
Hopefully we’ll see some interaction between Baltar and Caprica again.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Adalla, thank you so much for the kudos. I am gratified to know that you liked my theories and I sincerely appreciate your feedback.
It was very interesting to me that you immediately picked up on the point that Cylons were created on Kobol as one of the “weakest links” in the theory. Actually, I completely agree with you and it was NOT part of my original theory. It makes much more sense – to me (and you) – that Cylons would be created by Humans AFTER they left Kobol and founded the Twelve Colonies, and here’s why…
The cataclysm on Kobol was devastating enough to render the entire planet uninhabitale. Presumably, the toll on the inhabitants was equally terrible. To make matters worse, the tribes were “fractured” from one cooperative civilization on Kobol into thirteen independent civilizations – each on their own planet.
Having to re-build their entire civilization from scratch, with a greatly reduced population and limited resources, was a “Herculean” task. It would be reasonable to conclude that the scars from the war on Kobol were slow to heal. Kobol was a paradise lost and the prospect of beginning anew must have seemed nearly impossible. The only positive effect of having the human race split into twelve, separate but proximate colonies, was competition. Each colony realized that if one became more dominant than the others, the weaker colonies would be subject to domination and possible conquest. Their disposition sparked an acute drive toward constant innovation and invention across the colonies. Their collective love of technology was unbounded and fuelled an intrasteller “Cold War” that would last for several generations.
Understandably, this intense competition created critical labor shortages across the Colonies that was so severe, it threatened their continued economic growth. There simply were not enough people to fill all of the jobs that were required to keep the Colonial economies moving. The need was the greatest for labor intensive positions that were monotonous or dangerous. The solution was simple – build a cybernetic humanoid that could be mass replicated and programmed to perform a multitude of functions. They were called Cylons. (this may not exactly mesh with the known backstory for “Caprica”, but it is a more logical – and natural – evolutionary explanation for the creation of Cylons by Humans on the Twelve Colonies). This solved the labor shortage, but simultaneously created a massive slave population.
We know that it wasn’t until the First Cylon War that the Twelve Tribes of Kobol first united together to fight the Cylon threat and signed the Articles of Colonization. This is a critical distinction for me because it strongly suggests that the Twelve Tribes were VERY COMPETITIVE and antagonistic against each other for most of their 2,000 year recorded history. It took a common enemy – powerful enough to threaten their very existence – to finally bring all Twelve Tribes together in unity.
So far, it all seems to make great sense in a very practical – and natural – way, right? Now here comes the problem…
In “Sometimes a Great Notion” (SaGN) we learn that ALL of the inhabitants on the “Earth” founded by the Thirteenth Tribe are Cylons – both mechanical and humanoid. If we accept the fact that this planet was truly founded by the ACTUAL Thirteenth Tribe that left Kobol in search of Earth after the Great Cataclysm – and the discovered remains are all Cylon – we must also accept that their original ancestors were all Cylons as well. Consequently, Cylons had to exist on Kobol in order for them to make up the total population of the Thirteenth Tribe who populated their “Earth”. For this reason, I “tweaked” my theory – against my original speculation – to conform to the events we learned in “SaGN.”
As a quick aside: This is nearly the same situation the humanoid Cylons are now creating themselves with a “servant class” of mechanical Centurions and Raiders. Class warfare may prove be the same root cause of why the Thriteenth Tribe’s – all Cylon – planet Earth destroyed itself. I guess Cylons aren’t any better at learning from their past mistakes than we are (the apple didn’t fall far from the tree)
Well, we’ll learn more tonight…I am counting on hearing the “truth” behind Kara Thrace…
February 27th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
MariaSunderland Says:
Tootie: I really like your theory.
Thanks on behalf of Treehugger, because it’s Treehugger’s theory about the opera house prophesy, but I did add that bit about Baltar and Caprica. Yes, I think Caprica and Baltar will reunite somehow, in making peace or in love or both.
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