BSGcast 4.17 – “No Exit”
Word Salad. No other term quite sums up this exposition-heavy BEAST of an episode. With many long-standing questions answered and a few more posed, Ellen’s return and Anders’ brain-bullet managed to cause a virtual deluge of mythos from the origin and travels of the final five to the end of the first cylon war, the source of resurrection technology and skin jobs… the list goes on. Needless to say, if you’ve not seen the episode yet, GO WATCH IT!
We had an awesome time in San Francisco at a random BSG/Dollhouse viewing in Presidio with Autumn from the Pasadena Auction/Frak-Party and her AMAZING group of fellow BSG fans. We even got to make Battlestar Cookie Characters. Big win. Thanks SO MUCH for embracing these two Toronto Nomads into your Friday night festivities!
February 11th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Gods dammit…what’s with the West Coast…LOL! I love it out there but rarely need to travel there. Better do this if you guys are ever in NYC, etc. LOL!
February 12th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Hahaha… we can’t help it. We just keep having projects taking us out this way… although we’re heading to New York in May, Chicago in April, Dallas and Austin in March for SXSW and Orlando at the end of February for MegaCon
~Matt
February 12th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
In Austin for SXSW, awesome! You must come to watch BSG at the Alamo Drafthouse. As i’ve said before, nothing like Chips & Queso with BSG on the big screen. Maybe even a bucket of Blue Moon. lol. They show it at midnight, so you would have to hold out watching it live for a few extra hours. Im also “JJ” in your facebook friend list, send me a message if your game.
February 12th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
I agree with Adam says:
NYC! Gods Damnit! I am feeling like a step-child…you guys have to come to NYC before the end.
Have fun my eyes are turning green…
February 12th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
lemme know where you guys end up…the Adama for President Committee is based out here in the Sunset District and would be happy to stop by wherever y’all are gathering…I may even have a few stickers left…email me at the address here….
February 12th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Frak that, you guys should come to England! :p I’m having a lil frak party for the final episode if you wanna join in? LOL
February 13th, 2009 at 12:53 am
hey guys again love your casts it was how i basicly got my bsg info before i started watching streeming eps and got cable. dont mean to sound like a wieney child here but come on my “what about ellen” post couldnt have even gotten some kind of honerable mention on the cast. eh no harm done still love yall watch u every week. i recently found and read a draft of caprica and man the colonies seem quite difrint. im not sure how exactly the timeline will match up if it will synk up right or not bc im useing this as a basis to calculate the age of at least some of the HUMANS in bsg trieing to figure out thins like when romo began working whith joseph adama and things like that. in caprica little bill adama is nine or ten years old. also idk if they changed it in later drafts in my reading of the script “by your command” doesnt seem to be said by any of the robots as of yet. i hope they change that for the show.
the writing is as it should be amazing i cant wate for the dvd reliece. if iether of u want to read the script i found it. im so glad i read it and here it is: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3244940/Script-Caprica-wwwseriesaddictfr enjoy for as long as the link is good. it also got me thinking about the evolution of cylons in general on earth and kobol as well as the colonies. i also think i know where baltars group comes from. they seem to come from some rememnents of the “solgers of the one” but are much more peacefull than thier colonial predisessers who seem to have also inspiredthe cylon monothism to a point. emjoy the frak party wish i could come but alas i am on the other side of the country. btw it seems second life is our first rudimentary step to our own cyloninaty thanks a lot guys
February 13th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
It looks like Autumn from our Pasadena Frak-Party is in San Fran and has an idea of where we can go for some Battlestar tonight!
Check her out on Facebook here: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=525478404
~Matt
February 13th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Haha did you hear about the KFC Frak Pack meal deal? They’ve changed the name. Apparently the clods at KFC didn’t realize what the word means!
Have a good time, eh! When you two need a personal assistant, just call me….I am economical, reliable..and the soul of discretion, haha.
February 13th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
They needed to keep that name! Frak Pack is something I would buy!
February 13th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
And there I was thinking: KFC is getting so edgy!!:))
This episode was….Well I have to watch it again…We got so much information about the whole cycle and the final 5. Amazing!
Questions are answered and more are created! Daniel? Poor Starbuck she doesn’t know who she is….LOL She must be human then!
February 13th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Wow… so much information. I too will have to watch it again.
However, I’m hoping I’m not the only one thinking Daniel is Starbuck? As I said, I’ll have to watch it again, but I recall Anders saying Daniel was a “she”, but then Ellen said “he”. Considering Anders was having a hard time speaking each word correctly, it’s possible he meant “he”. But then Ellen also mentions that Cavil… er….. John, frakked with Daniel’s genetic codes… Which means it could easily have turned Daniel into a woman, a.k.a. Kara, with all the implanted memories. Then if Anders said “she”, it’s because he was looking at Kara and it was a… Freudian lip perhaps?
It would also answer the “why is Starbuck a woman now?”
Maybe it’s an inside joke of sort.
Or maybe I’m thinking too hard lol What do you guys think?
February 13th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Daniel is Number Seven? As in Daniel Graystone?!
February 13th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
Maria that’s a good point! Also remember that Kara painted! Daniel was an artist!
February 13th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Wow… there is so much to take in… don’t read beyond this point…
*********************************************
1. Head people visited the Final Five… each person had their own… so does that mean Baltar is Daniel? Though, Romo also had a head cat so…
2. Boomer is a triple… quadruple turncoat
3. Sam is brain dead?
4. Chief and Tori were engaged to be married… explains why she got so cozy with him and killed his wife
5. The F5 reinvented resurrection from Kobol technology
6. Did I mention Daniel? He was model #7 and #1 murdered his entire line
7. Lee is going to be acting president
8. Chief is Chief again
9. MY MIND IS GOING TO FRY!
February 14th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Argh, just when we finish up figuring out who the Cylon’s are, we get another curve ball, and another plot line opens up, just begging us to ask, who is failed Cylon #7? The name given is Daniel. Speculation is all over the place right now, but I propose the following;
Daniel is Lee Adama. Ok ok, I know I just lost you! I don’t remember when, if ever, it was stated in the show, but battlestarwiki.org lists Lee Adama’s full name as being Leland. Take a few minutes to digest the letters of that, Leland. We have a D, an A, an N, an ‘L’, an E, and a L. Now, lower case ‘L’s sometimes look like upper case ‘i’s. Thus, Danlel. Daniel. Not convinced? Ok, yeah, it’s a bit of a stretch… but if you go back far enough you may remember a certain whispering by Leoben, “Adama is a Cylon.”
It’s something to think about, at any rate.
And given how the line was basically destroyed, one escaping, then being unable to figure out his constantly changing role in the fleet society, and it just might be possible.
February 14th, 2009 at 12:23 am
quick thought::::: Daniel is Caprica Six’s and Tigh’s child.
February 14th, 2009 at 1:09 am
An artistic male? Gotta go with Starbuck’s dad, the mysteriously missing piano player. Remember that when Anders said the seventh was Daniel, Starbuck said, “Daniel? You’re sure about that name?” like this was something important to her. Then she had him wheeled into surgery, as if she had gotten the information she needed.
So how can a half-Cylon resurrect and find a brand-new Viper? You’re guess is as good as mine.
Also, if Cavil was created by Ellen and looks to her as a mother, does that mean that on New Caprica, he willing wanted his own mother to give him “the swirl”? Eww. Someone has some serious mommy issues.
February 14th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Forget Cavil having Mommy issues, how about Ellen creating Cavil in the image of her father and then giving him the swirl…yuck.
February 14th, 2009 at 1:24 am
I think Daniel could have been Starbuck’s dad and that she was the first hybrid. She was recreated by whatever facility still exists near Earth, and her ship was remade. But why? No clue. I am sure it means something and we will find out.
February 14th, 2009 at 1:28 am
okay so ive been going over the hybrid’s babblings and this one made since tonight.
“the children of the one reborn shall find there own country”
in sometimes a great notion they specifically have Ellen say we will be reborn not resurrected. cavil said that the 7 or i guess 8 cylons are the children of the final five. so the children of the one reborn shall find there own county. The 7 main cylons who were created by ellen shall find there own country. So Maybe the cylons in the end will decide to make there own version of earth whatever it may be called, and in a couple thousand years a holocaust happens again. All that has happened before will happen again…again…again…again
February 14th, 2009 at 1:44 am
She asked the name (Daniel) because she wanted to make sure because she thought it was her. My guess is that she is an Angel that Anders was talking about.
February 14th, 2009 at 2:03 am
I’m going with that Daniel is Starbuck’s father,–I w/you DarthRazorback! Ellen said she loved him so much, and Cavil was jealous. Perhaps this is why she has had this tumultuous relationship w/Tigh and Ellen.
Excellent way of tying in the FF in a rational, believable way–brilliant and well done.
How much do I love Ellen? She rocks, I knew they were the cylon creators! I loved how she was sitting at the side of the tub after resurrecting, it was great. She actually reminded me of the 6 model–so seductive. Cavil just hates Ellen, for the reason she stated, and was sleeping w/her and screwing w/Tigh for revenge. i love how she stressed the power of free will, just as Sharon did-ever since she’s been w/Helo. Also, I knew that what Caprica 6 wanted was the be human, as did the 8 models, and I love how Ellen reminded Cavil of how his motives were oh so human. Wow whomever was using Shakespeare to compare this show, was oh so right, I’m thinking, Hamlet? or Oedipus complex?
Tory and the Chief? That was really weird–it was a great moment. I loved how when Cavil said they were in danger of extinction, Ellen said, pondering your mortality have you?
I think that I was right, the 5 were trying to guard humanity against itself and break the cycle: humanity created the cylons, who enslaved the cylons, who revolted, then came back and destroyed the 12 colonies. Then when the FF woke up (or 4) after the nebula, humanity was on its’ own as they alienated the 4 (at first) for obvious reasons. However, humanity, ie. Lee, made a truce in order to find earth, and then humanity’s survival became intertwined w/that of the cylons. Now we see with the previews for next week, that Tory is still being annoying–she’s such a pain.
However, I am confused about all of the events w/the FF so someone give me clarity!
Okay here it goes:
The 12 colonies created the 13th Tribe, but did they enslave them? I was confused there.
Then they went to Earth, and left the markers along the way, as Ellen said.
They were able to procreate and then forgot about resurrection technology, until Ellen and the four decided to figure it out on their own.
They were somehow warned about the war, and put the hubs on another planet where there was another colony? So, that is what Gina, Roslin, Sharon, have all been seeing in their visions, that other planet! I assume that will be their new home.
Boomer shows once again that she loves humanity and chooses to save Ellen.
I am confused:
So who warned the 5 on Earth about the upcoming war?
So, the 13th tribe built centurions, and enslaved them? Then they rebelled against them, and thus the war?
Who was on this other planet? Other members of the 13th tribe?
Why did they want to recreate resurrection technology?
So, when they all died on Earth, they resurrected on the other planet, and used some kind of stasis to not age for close to 2,000 years and got to the colonies.
They wanted to warn them about the cylons, treat them well but they were too late.
They made a deal w/the cylons to help them w/resurrection technology.
They stopped the war, Cavil killed them, and then boxed them.
He let them out after the war w/fake memories, and repressed their original ones. Ellen said he played w/them by making them resistance fighters and that he could’ve killed them long ago. I think that makes sense, afterall he hated dying and resurrecting more than anyone.
Anders said they saw the signs but differently, some saw a man–i was confused by what they saw as signs. Other models?
So, the FF are machines? But not like the other models, right?
So the other models were manipulated by Cavil to help justify that humanity should be wiped out as punishment for their enslavement?
Also,
So, how annoying is Tory? She’s always trying to take charge to no avail.
Okay that’s it for now–wow great epi!
A
February 14th, 2009 at 3:05 am
Obvious point made tonight by RDM, that to me is very sublime, can easily be lost in the FF 5 and #7 storylines and is a
In the Prophecy of Pythia, “The dying leader shall lead them…”
Well, I throw this out: The “dying leader” is none other than BSG 75 herself: Galatica!
She (Galactica) is leading the “human race” and she is dying by all accounts.
Chief Tyrol says She can be repaired but the looks on Adama and Tyrol’s faces tonight tell a sobering story.
Captains and Chief Engineers know their ships and believe them to be immortal and will take great pains to save them.
However, they also know when their ships are in pain.
Their reactions tonight tell me, they know that Galatica is wounded, perhaps mortally.
Above for your consideration.
Platoconsidered
February 14th, 2009 at 3:14 am
If Daniel’s so sensitive and an artist, the only person who springs immediately to mind is Gaeta and his singing. Last week I theorized that the “it stopped” was referring to the music and not the pain in his leg, but I was outvoted on that one. Still, as far as ‘known’ characters, he was the one that jumped out at me, although it sounds like the entire Daniel line was killed off. But if so, why bother to bring it up, except for to explain the missing Number Seven? I supposed they DID need to explain why it skipped to Eight. Of course, the writers didn’t know about the Final Five when they started, and I suspect the real reason they skipped Seven is that Voyager was already a lost-in-space-trying-to-find-earth show with a cybernetic organism named Seven of Nine, instead of Seven of Twelve.
I hypothesized here about two or three episodes ago that the skinjob ship was probably drifting slowly through space over a couple thousand years before they ran into Centurions, so I feel slightly vindicated on at least one of my theories! But the rest of it – I thought that the Original Seven were on that ship as well, and that the Centurions merely found it and began experimenting on them – was pretty much all completely wrong. Then they mass produced the remaining seven, while the Final Five escaped somehow. I think I would have liked that better, honestly, than the explanation this episode put forth.
Maybe it was the way the revelations were presented, but it seemed too canned to me, really. Everyone on here I think pretty much guessed that Cavil played a role in getting rid of the Final Five and kept it a secret from the others, I just really don’t like the way it was revealed. This is playing out too much like the last fifteen minutes of a really bad movie where the Big Bad Guy has to explain everything that’s been going on through excessive dialog. I hope this was the end of that!
I liked that they started to drop hints about the Head people, and how they show up before cataclysms. All in all though, I feel that this episode was far too rushed, and at the same time the overly-lengthy not-entirely-convincing dialog between Ellen and Cavil (I will NOT call him “John!”) bogged it down for me.
So far we have John and Daniel as the different models original names – some Biblical undertones?
And yes – the “swirl” now retroactively qualifies as one of the yuckiest tv moments ever. And it was bad enough the first time around!
February 14th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Yo Athena. I’m thinking the man and women ‘no one else’ could see except Anders and Tory were Head Six and Head Baltar. Or at least theyre these ‘angels’ head six claims to be. Also notice that Tyrol *ALSO* thought he had a chip and his head. Great…more of this ‘higher power’ stuff. Bring on the ships of Light!!!!!!!
February 14th, 2009 at 3:57 am
Okay, so here is the story as set forth, The final five are the creators of the Signifigant Eight. One, of which (the Daniel’s) was genetically destroyed by the Cavils. Cavil is jealous and angry at the five for making their bodies human and not machines, so he has a major case of Centurian Envy. The way to have resurrection is stored in the collective consciousness of the final five. Now on to how I feel and I could be the only one but, I feel cheated by this episode, aside from the new opening which I loved( I love the old Cylon Centurions) and the small part with the Galactica’s damage and Lee being handed the presidency, I felt this entire episode was complete exposition. This episode to me was like the endings of the old Scooby Doo cartoons. The villian is caught and then spills his guts for the next 45 minutes about why he did what he did and what his whole plan is about and he would have got away with it too if not for those stupid kids. I would have preferred to see this happen rather than be told it, in one giant monologue. I lost Zarek for this?!?! hopefully the show I love will redeem itself.
February 14th, 2009 at 4:22 am
At first I had to do a double-take, and then I knew that Anders was frakked when I realized who the brain surgeon was. He must’ve decided to upgrade Anders’ wetware to MS Vista ;-D Seriously though, was RDM using that particular actor to frak with us and foreshadow the outcome of the surgery? Or was it just a happy accident in central casting?
A whole lot of exposition in this episode. I nominate Ellen Tigh as official “deus ex machina” for the series for dropping such a high-yield information bomb on us (and for being the “cylon god,” as Cavil/John put it).
Cavil/John has a serious case of self-loathing, and just doesn’t get the truth of his existence. And because he doesn’t know how to love his whole self, he has nothing but hatred and contempt for everyone else. I think he uses the cylon slavery issue as just an excuse to persecute and murder everyone but himself. And the Oedipus/Electra issues surrounding his relationship with Ellen tends to give one pause. I’ll admit that I almost regret we didn’t get to see him cutting open Ellen on the operating table, just so I could refer to him as Cavil/John, M.D.
I’m pleased that Chief was able to devise a way to detect the microfractures in the hull (for the sake of the scientist in me). And it should be interesting to see how the living cylon structural components integrate with Galactica, and how the crew will react to it. I’m really pleased that Chief is Chief again. I just had a weird thought: with Anders spouting hybrid-like gibberish before going under the knife, then coming out mostly brain-dead, I’m wondering if we’ll see Anders being revived as a hybrid to run Galactica’s systems (probably not, with so few episodes remaining, but worthy of consideration IMHO).
The #7s being named ‘Daniel’ must be a complete red herring, at least if what Ellen and Anders said was true about the F5 showing up after war between the Colonials and the cylons started is true. #7 can’t be Daniel Graystone. I do think that at least one Daniel managed to live though. I’m thinking he may have hijacked a basestar (or rigged the F5’s ship with an FTL) and escaped to Earth. Perhaps the cylon-god from Razor was that Daniel, or was one that survived Cavil/John’s alterations. And if a Daniel is Starbuck’s daddy, then that might help explain how the cylon-god knew about her, and how she came to be resurrected at/near Earth… someone prepped for her (dead on) arrival.
February 14th, 2009 at 6:05 am
Once again a very satisfying episode for me. I know it was kind of wordy but these are the episodes that actually make me feel like the show can come to a close and I won’t be robbed of the whole truth. I guess I knew it was coming in a way since the last three episodes didn’t do much for the mythology. I’m just glad it wasn’t all in the last episode, like in X-Files (that was bad and I’m still bitter).
I have one problem with Daniel being Starbuck’s father (even though it’s a cool idea). My problem is that RDM bent over backwards to make Hera the only human/Cylon child for a reason, he even reverse engineered Nicky, so I’m assuming if Starbuck is a human/Cylon, Hera isn’t really that special.
I also wanted to throw out there the thought that Six may still be the younger version of Ellen, because Ellen made Cavil to look like her father, who’s to say that she, or Tigh, didn’t want to make the younger version of herself (I’m sure Tigh wouldn’t mind a bunch of younger Ellens running around). Also could D’Anna or Sharon be a model of the woman Ander’s loved and played the song for?
And in regard to Daniel I was originally going to suggest Daniel could be Tigh and Caprica Six’s child, but I was beaten to that idea. I like the idea of Daniel somehow finding a way to break through Cavil’s plans and find a way to come back. Maybe he put his genetic information into Tigh. Since it is the first pairing between the Original 5 and the New 7 (or
perhaps it is not true procreation but a hidden code recreating itself through a Cylon pairing. However, there are a lot of cool theories out there and everytime I read one I become convinced it is right until I read the next one. (This is why I like all the explaining in this episode, it frees up our thoughts and allows us to perfect our theories before the entire picture is explained.)
Finally, I just want to say that I am very sad and this seemed like the episode to share my sadness. I do not know if anyone else has addressed this but I would like to take a moment to lament that we may never get a CYLON CLASS PICTURE (as I like to call it). RDM said that D’Anna is truly going to stay on Earth and that Sometimes A Great Notion was her last episode. Since the moment I found out there were only twelve Cylons I was sure that at one point in the entire series there would have to be a moment where all twelve (now thirteen) Cylons would be together and, in a perfect world, pose for a “shot” (like those publicity photos that always come out of the cast just standing and sitting around). Oh, how I longed to see that moment but now that moment may very likely never come. PLEASE BE LYING TO ME RON!!! I feel very passionate about this obviously. I knew, deep down, that there had to be a moment where they were all finally together, one instance where the twelve Cylons stood together, but I was wrong. For once in my life, I hope Ron lied.
Thanks for all the theories they make the week long wait bearable.
February 14th, 2009 at 7:31 am
OK, I just need to say something first off: please go read my post in the comments on “The Oath”, dated 2/1, about halfway down the list, which were completely and totally unspoiled, and I so called it!! Anders said it – the 13th Tribe came from Kobol, and then the Final Five were going back to warn the 12 Tribes to be nice to any artificial life they created, ’cause they knew they’d do it again, and they did. I didn’t realize that the Five made the Seven, or all of Cavil’s nastiness, but I got the broad outline right. So, is that enough to be Fan of the Week, Matt and Nat? {big cheesy grin}
And I agree with everybody else – great ep, I finally love Ellen, and like others have said, I think one Daniel model escaped… an married Socrata Thrace, becoming Starbuck’s missing dad. She has a Special Destiny, because she is the first hybrid child.
What squiks me, though, is all the vaguely incestuous stuff going on. Think about it, Ellen says the Five created the humanoid cylons, and refers to them ALL as their children. All the Cavil/Ellen sex on New Caprica is worst, ’cause Cavil really knows what’s going on and is messing with them, but what about Saul getting Six preggers? What about Tyrol and Boomer? Those now are cast as vaguely incestuous as well, if more occuring in ignorance than what happened with Cavil and Ellen.
Last thought – I love BSGcast!
February 14th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Just listened to the podcast…..hmm. Daniel? A reborn version of Daniel Greystone (or is it Graystone?). He didn’t say that but it can be inferred at about 31-33 minutes in…. What does that mean? They wanted to recreate a man that created…that band (not musician, but cyber world, I forget what it was called). This show is coming together and trying to tie all lose ends. It’s great.
February 14th, 2009 at 8:17 am
@ KittKlaiss – I can’t remember if you articulated it faster than me, or independently, but one way or another, I was right there with you for weeks on the whole FF helping the cylons make skinjobs. I wondered about them stopping the war, but that would have been a bit much.
And, by the way, I want to pay money to the science advisors of this show. Sub-light speeds do in fact slow down the experience of time for those in travel relative to the rest of us, and comes 80% of the way to explaining how they lost 2000 years. Unfortunately, though, I’m not sure it would have been enough for them to have crossed those distances without having aged meaningfully.
I went through 5 minutes of being ripped OUT of the show as soon as the brain doc showed up! I saw that man on the Daily Show online last night, and to have him show up out of the blue on BSG – OMG! He is the epitome of all geekyness, a glimpse of the brilliant hillarity of sunlight from Comedy Central in the midst of the most depressing Sci Fi show of all time! He is for us a glimpse of us, the fans, as we would be had we been on set, being smartasses and comics out of love for this set that we would try so hard to take seriously, but would fail so miserably with the grin and bright eyes of a seven year old in Disney World! NO WAY that man could have survived the initial holocaust, or New Caprica, or any of the other insane scenarios they’ve been through! BUT WHO CARES! We have witnessed ourselves on TV – on our favorite TV show no less – and who cares if it is living vicariously through a Comedy Central rock star? It’s good enough for me – yes, it is good enough for me – and all YGN answer: “SO SAY WE ALL!”
All together, it was a fine episode, with so much story coming together so soundly. Ellen rocks as the Cylon Hera. I wonder what she’ll be thinking when she find’s out the Zeus has been sleeping with Aphrodite. That’s okay, seeing as how Athena helped her elude the doctor’s knife of Poseidon and the sadism of Hades. It’s a pity Artemis won’t be around to see it, but you know Athena is off to see her true love Hephaestus, who’s using those blacksmith skills to fix the ship. I hope we see some more crazy mystical Hermes before the season is done. Tori’s a decent (though unclear) Demeter, Sam and Doral are kind of juggling Ares and Dionysus. And if you agree that the Greek Olympians are a great way to think of the 12 cylons, I hate to say it, but you heard it here first:
http://www.bsgcast.com/bsgcast-special-earth-explored/#comment-16011
February 14th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Bender02, I think this is right on target. Anders’ quote: “Back on Earth the warning signs that we got it looked different, I saw a woman. Tory you saw a man. Funny no one else could see them. (nurse interrupts making it hard to hear the last bit…) Galen, you though you had a *chip* in your (head?)!”
Unless the writers are playing around with the audience, this is an absolute connection to Baltar – not to mention Caprica-Six with the ultra-cool Head-Baltar.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:16 am
what up everybody
first of all let me say that i loved this episode. even though there was a lot of info stuffed in there. it reminded me of all those ” what’s the frack up with bsg” short promos scifi did in earlier seasons. i love we are right and wrong on our theories. i knew the 5 were the creators of the 7 and that Ellen was the key. i had said before that they all worked in a lab together and that is how they all ended up together. i also loved being wrong about resurrection tech came from earth.
Athena i can see how all of this is confusing but let me give some of my theories.
the 13th tribe consisted of humans and centurions. cylon tech was created on kobol. i think that humans of the 13th created organic tech as a form of immortality and humans on kobol saw that as an abomination. science vs. religion. this tech was perfected on their way to earth. by the time they reached earth there were 3 races. human, centurions and organics. centurions were used as slaves and lab rats thus explaining the centurions on earth with skeletons. the rift came when centurions saw they were out numbered 2 to 1 with organics and humans and they were 3rd class citizens and would never become organic so they rebelled with a surprise global nuclear strike to wipe out all organics not realizing that the radiation would destroy them too. the electromagnetic burst from the strike wiped metals’ hard drives and radiation wiped out organics, humans, and hybrid centurions.
the resurrection tech is not with another colony but on earth. most likely under the opera house. the “colony” could be humans and organics stored in secured stasis chambers on earth under the opera house with care takers. that could explain Kara’s resurrection.
the 5 were initially humans who worked for a lab/tech company and came across the tech while searching old history tech records. tensions with the centurions were already heating up. there is a saying in the entertainment business “EVERY SINGER WANTS TO BE AN ACTOR AND EVERY ACTOR WANTS TO BE A SINGER”. humans and organics wanted immortality since resurrection tech was forgotten and immortal centurions wanted to be organic. the 5 would make serious bank if they could perfect this tech.
as far as their travel, we don’t know how long it took to get back to the colonies. Sam said they didn’t have jump drive. now to get all trekky on you. earth ships traveled through space in a strait line at light speed where as ftl drive bends space or springs from point to point. if you laid out a 12 inch piece of string it will always be 12 inches point to point. if you took that same string and arched it, the points would be closer together making travel from point A to point B shorter. faster than light (ftl) drive. so a 100 yr. trip in an earth ship would take seconds with jump drive. also the 100 or so years it took to get to the colonies at linear light speed would be 1000’s of years in our time. it could not take 1000’s of years for the 5 to reach the colonies due to replicative fading. you can’t make 1000 copies of a picture without replacing the ink. thus the 5’s dna would not survive that long by simply copying themselves. their dna would degrade. they would need samples of their original human dna to refill the ink. i think it only took 100 yrs. or so to get back to the colonies. thus the 13th tribe and the 12 colonies’s civilizations were similar at the time of earth’s destruction with the colonials being a few hundred years more advanced and it only seemed like 2000 yrs. had passed.
as far as cavil. as i commented a couple weeks ago, there is some serious froydian stuff going on with him. he sounds like a fracked up teenager’s “I DIDN’T ASKED TO BE BORN” schtick. he hates his parents for not making him more like the cool kids(centurions) and he hates the cool kids for turning on their parents. that is why he built in those inhibitors in the new centurion models to keep them from turning on them again but the 6’s and Baltar fracked that up thus setting the stage for this to start over again. Baltar planted the slave seed again on the rebel base ship. i also think that as smart as Hellen she also built an inhibitor into Cavil/John. that is why they are not dead. he only killed them
the 1st time to wipe out their memories. that is why he is so sadistic. the kicker will be that he can’t do it but maybe the others can and that is why he was trying to turn Boomer. the only ones who can kill the 5 is one of the 7 because Cavil/John built them and the centurions won’t do it either. in order for anybody to have a chance the Cavil/Johns must die.
Daniel being Kara’s father is looking more likely. i also think that he is still alive. i also believe that Sam is Saul and Hellen’s son. only i can see:
Hellen/scientist
Saul/ military r&d
Tori/administrative
Tyrol/technical
Sam has no function. he doesn’t strike me a a computer wiz. maybe he worked there with is parents as a lab assistant/ intern and picked up on stuff or he could have found the kobol tech.
anyway tell me what you guys think
February 14th, 2009 at 10:23 am
I’m going to combine two theories from this thread. Daniel is Daniel Greystone and Daniel Greystone is Kara’s father. I wrote before that if you look at the you will know the truth website there is a picture of Kara at a piano with a guy – and the hair and part of the face looks like it could be Eric Stoltz who plays Daniel Greystone on the Caprica series. Go check out the picture and see what you think.
So Kara becomes the first cylon produced from reproduction and could be the shape of things to come. Maybe that is why they did experiments on her ovaries to see how it was possible for a cylon to reproduce so they could reproduce without the use of a resurection ship. That could also explain why they were trying to set up Leoben with Kara, so they would get together and see if she could make babies.
One more idea. Kara could be the baby in the opera house and everyone that we see there was earlier versions of themselves. The six was really the human the six was based on. Sharon was the original human Sharon etc.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:29 am
As for Ellen having sex with Cavil and how weird that is since he looks like her father, remember that he wiped her memory and gave her new ones. Obviously knowing where he originated from, he would have to create a new father for her or she would recognize him.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:32 am
8 Cylons and Starbuck is their Angel of Death?
I think this finally explains why the number 8 appears on Starbuck’s Viper. Her Viper on Galactica is 8757NC-the crashed Viper on Earth has the number 757NC.
I originally thought that 8 was the amount of times “all this has happened before and will all happen again” but no, we now know its Daniel, the 8th Cylon slain by Cavil or John as we now know him.
Starbuck is the hardest to predict, but I think her role is to facilitate the death of all 7 remaining Cylons and let the Final Five create a new civilization. She is the reason the hub was destroyed which has sealed the fate of the remaining 7.
Does this mean we will see Daniel return and could Tigh and the Six’s expected child be his rebirth? I don’t know.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:39 am
the 8 cylons were mentioned way back at the end of season 1 or sometime in season 2. I think it was after boomer shot adama and she was being held in the brig. I think the set up was, tyrol was visiting boomer in the brig and along comes baltar. he injected the chief with something that was shutting down his immune system or something. baltar coerced boomer into telling him how many cylons there were in the fleet — she said there were 8. i’m guessing this is an attempt by RDM to clear this up.
I like the idea that Daniel is Daniel Graystone but the picture from youwillknowthetruth.com doesn’t show a guy with red hair, does it? this entire episode was pretty darned good though.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:39 am
i just looked up luminal the definition means tubular. so the earth ships did have some kind of transwarp drive i.e. linear light speed drive.
also looks like the centurions can perceive their environment so much more vividly than organics.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
one last thing
ELLEN TIGH WAS SMOOOKKKEN HELLA-EVERLASTING MILFALICIOUS HOT IN THIS EPISODE!!!!! in the previous episodes she looked a bit haggard
but now; Damn!!! she looked all June Cleaver meets Caprica 6.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Holy information barf, batman!
February 14th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Well heck…Just amazing how much info they just handed us on a silver platter this episode. It feels wrong and so right all at the same time.
I was only right a little bit. Ellen said there is hope for you yet to a specific person. In this case it was John/Cavil. The fact that he was responsible for the sequestering of the FF is kinda interesting and stands to reason why the seven were never supposed to talk about them. Cavil being the #1 he was able to make this part of the the programming for the others I suppose.
I guess I was right about a little bit else if not exactly the way I was thinking. The 5 created the 8(7) and this truely are responsible for the destruction of the colonies. My real question is about an earlier episode where the skin jobs are talking about humans being their creators and they are the children of man. This is simply misinformation fed to the 7 models by cavil since the FF were the true creators.
The “colony” cavil refers to where resurrection tech labs still exists refers to where the FF worked on the skin jobs when they met up with the centurions. Also, I think Cavil was responsible for the inhibitors placed on the centurions to limit their higher “brain” functions. I think Cavil will be trailing Ellen’s raptor as it makes its way to find the fleet, and perhaps the organic infusion into galactica will actually save more than just the crew of galactica.
At the same time though I believe it will eventually be the Centurions who put a stop to Cavil’s evil. They may let the skin jobs do a lot, but the centurions and raiders seem to have an almost reverence for the FF. However, I have to wonder how much Cavil was able to labotomize on them to keep them in line and remove their free will.
Ok. Couple things to think about. The Final Five are actually all the same age. They were put into the colonies after the first war? I thought Saul and Adama were in the first war together. Saul and Ellen were around a lot longer than Tory, Tyrol, and Anders. Did cavil decide not to put them in the colonies till later? Or did Adama’s true friend and wife get killed and get replaced by these two of the FF?
Oh well I guess I am gonna stop posting theories. I just get them mostly wrong hehe. Gonna go watch the rest of the series in quiet solitude and read all the great posts.
February 14th, 2009 at 11:08 am
7,John,angels,possibly demons,A.I.s? and they even had a slipdrive because they said that time slowed down because of relativity! The same happens with the halo slipdrive.Im just waiting for Master Chief “John” 117 to show up!Hes the 13th cylon! Halo also has an almost exact same story to bsg. An group of religious zealot aliens waging a holy war against humanity who are ironically the very gods they worship, and who have broght the human race to the brink of extinction by destroying all of there colonys except for earth.
But I do have a real none halo theory.
Its looking more and more likeley that Earth is Terra.Mabey even the same Terra from TOS which would make this really season 5 or 6(if you count 1980 as tos s2) and it would also make this bsg a continuation of tos. PLus did you know that there is a 13th zodiac sign? Its the Ophiuchus and the constellation is a pentagon! Which is the cylon symbol wich also alludes to the f5 since there are 5 sides in a pentagon!
Oh and you dont have to sign me up to win a computer. I have one that works fine.
February 14th, 2009 at 11:17 am
I know I said not sign me up to win a computer.But I wouldn’t mine you discussing my Terra pentagon theory on your next bsgcast vid.
February 14th, 2009 at 11:23 am
What the frack is with Dollhouse? Its a total rip off the you dont know your a machine bsg concept! BSG came before shows like Dollhouse and terminator. And they seem to get more recognition only because there gods dammed fox!
February 14th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Hello all!
Wow. what an episode. It turns out there are rooms on the Basestar no one goes into. If only Deanna had snooped around Cavil’s ship, she would have had all the answers. I was totally right about Cavil. I always felt he knew more of what was going on with the final five and all. So…”trying to kill your dad while doing your mom, there ought to be a play”. That quote from “Angel” came into my mind after the episode. Looks like Cavil has an Oedipus complex, hurting his dad (Tigh) while getting with his mom (Elllen). lol.
I agree with what DarthRazorback said up top. I am also thinking Daniel is Starbuck’s dad. Maybe thats why Starbuck is all about painting and why she’s good at killing cylons, a subconscious need for revenge.
I was also thinking what if Daniel is Zach Adama. I don’t know how it would happen, but what if he was the one who resurrected Kara on the ship Anders was talking about (maybe that ship of lights you all were talking about a while back). That would make what Leoben said true, “Adama is a cylon” Well, in a week we will get more answers, hopefully.
February 14th, 2009 at 11:57 am
My theory now is Daniel, was Kara’s Father, and did she have a brother?..Baltar? Who better for Cavil to choose as the one to bring down the 12 collonies, and its looking like Cavil was the one who planed it. I have a hunch, we will get to see Daniel!
February 14th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
It seems like the writers threw the book of BSG mythos at us this episode, but I couldn’t be happier. For once, we don’t have to speculate about what they mean. They’ve said it.
With that in mind, it’s easy to see why people missed some stuff. So here is what I am 95% sure of:
The final five were Cylon scientists on Earth trying to rediscover resurrection. They know that there is some sort of conflict brewing that threatens the survival of their kind. That threat being Human or Cylon has not been revealed.
They succeed at what seems to be the last moment. Their civilization is destroyed, but they resurrect on a ship orbiting Earth. They head off at sub-light speed, as they haven’t invented the jump drive yet. Moving at near light speeds, they are affected by the properties of relativity. (Time for them seems to be slow relative to the outside world.) Having traveled at relativistic speed for so long, once they arrive at the Colonies 2000 years has passed on the outside, while they have aged little. They negotiate an end to the First Cylon War, promising the Cylons skinjobs if they stop attacking the Colonies.
After that, you guys seem to have it right.
One great, great episode, with a happy moment (see Six and Tigh with a kicking baby,) and a couple comedic ones (see John Hodgman as the brain surgeon.)
My speculation shall come later….
February 14th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
John Stewart is daniel! Becasue hodgman is one of my favs on the daily show!
But in reality it will probably be dirk benedict who plays him and hel play tos starbuck again who will somewhow also be daniel who will also be karas dad!
February 14th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Oh and in tos didnt the galactica move a “light speed” and not use a jump drive? Is lorne green still alive?
February 14th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
I loved John/Cavil in this show! The UTTER disgust he showed by the limitations of his putrid human body were so well acted! He stole the show from Ellen’s resurrection. I love the fact that he frakked his Mom even though he knew she was his Mom/creator. Talking about yucky incest — wow!
February 14th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Did everyone notice how Six was aged a bit in this episode and looked eerily like Ellen?
February 14th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
One more thing. I was just watching experiment on terra for the 100th time again and as it turns out the “angel” that apollo sees is named john! A connection?
February 14th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Great expository episode, I missed the Anders mentioning about the Head beings the first time around, what I want to know is did they appear like people they knew or as Baltar and Six.
It also looks like Cavil is reponsible for the destruction of the colonies and also the block of the other models knowing about the final five cylons. I also think the model numbers are the order they were created in rather than being linked to age especially with Cavil being Number 1.
While after last weeks episode I was thinking that Galactica would fall apart in the final episode, now I am thinking it is a metaphor for the entire fleet in that it can only be held together by the cylons.
Final thought was Ellen telling the truth about not being responsible for the vision D’anna got of them in the Temple of the Five as I am tempted to believe she was as there seems to be little point to leave a device to let people see who you are in a temple when you at that point have no idea it would be needed. If so who did cause the visions?
February 14th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
James – I like your idea that baltar may be another hybrid but if Kara and Baltar are brother and sister – it’s gonna be an awkward Thanksgiving. You have almost a luke/leia situation although luke and leia never went all the way (that we know of)
February 14th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
continuing the idea that Daniel was/is starbuck’s dad…I suppose this is plausible and that all of the skinjob models are recreations of the ones who made the cylons to begin with — a kind of “made in God’s image” take on the creation theory.
February 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Well wow this episode was great, lots of information reveiled.
Okay onto Cavil, his character seemed to remind me a lot of Roy Battys character from Blade Runner, especially the characters two main speechs… Heres roys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOW4QiOD-oc&feature=related
The character ironically enough in Blade Runner is also a robot made in mans image to make mans life easier… similar or what.
Anyway enough of the comparisons.
However when it comes to the final 5s travel from Earth, they don’t age remember, they have ressurection Tech, thats how they make the journey, they just die and ressurect, well thats how I imagine it happening, I’m not sure they stop aging because of the timeflux or w.e due to the sublight engines or w.e
Onto Adama, I don’t think he is against using cylon technology, but making his beloved battlestar a cylon is unforgiveable, theirs an irony in it. The Battlestar was made to repell the threat of the Cylons, but the cylons have in turn gave it a good kicking, and now the Galactica needs Cylon tech to be fixed. However we need to take into consideration, I always thought the Galactica was almost living wiht the wining of the infrostructure the creaking, but now it actually is going to become alive with the introduction of the Cylon technology.
The new Quorum, Im confused how thats going to work, yes I understand they will use the ship captains but, how many ships are their, whats the likely hood they could get all those captains in the same room ? Are they gonna split the ships into categorys, like war ships, fuel ships, food ships or w.e and have a collective? Do we really need a new introduction of a quorum when the shows comming to an end ? CAN WE HAVE MORE BSG EPISODES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats about all I can think of to say, apart from the fact I later listened to the RDM podcast, im slightly miffed at the little fracker for the slip that
SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!1111
thinks arnt looking to good for caprica six and the baby…. ty RDM…..
February 14th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOW4QiOD-oc&feature=related
February 14th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
So do we officially know what the war on earth was about? I’ve seen speculation that it was final five’s race of artificial intellegence vs the centurions that they created. But do we know that for sure?
I also think we have to re-evaluate some terms: Cylon, Human, ect.
We have:
The Lords of Cobol (haven’t seen any unless Starbuck is one)
The race that went to spawn the 12 tribes (we have called these humans, but is that accurate)
The race that went to spawn the 13th tribe on Earth AKA the Final 5.(we now know they are organic A.I, but if they lived on earth aren’t those the real humans? At least Earthlings is acurate.)
The machines created by the 12 tribes (Cylons, Centurions, Toasters, ect)
The machines created by the 13th tribe (At least we assume they created they’re own centurions different from above)
The skin jobs created the final 5 (Models 1-8)
The cross breeding of a few of these Tigh and 6, Athena and Helo.
Do we know for sure that the 12 tribes aren’t aslo AI created by the Lords of Cobol that just reproduce naturally and not via cloning or resurection tech. Maybe everyone is a machine at different stages of evolution towards organic reproduction…
And what happens over and over again is one race creating and enslaving the next …
Someone created the Lords of Cobol…They created the 13 colonies…they created toasters… they make skin jobs… on and on.
February 14th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
The Lords of kobol were a race super advanced reptilians that enslaved humanity and were also called cylons the humans rebelled so the cylons created centurions who rebelled who then created humonoid models but the humanoids rebelled then they created there own centurions and those centurions created there own humanoids and so on.
February 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
If you need proof that the centurions created there own humanoids. Then just look at Andromedus from 1980!
February 14th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
DarthPaul- I have a similar if not the same theory. We have heard over and over again, “This has all happened before and will happen again”. As soon as I saw Chiefs vision of his past life on earth I wondered. What really is the difference between, the colonial humans and the Cylon final 5 humans, or for that matter the other 8. I mean aside from a couple glowing eyeballs and the ability to link up to a rapter through your blood vessle, they are pretty much the same. Is it not possible that a machine could replicate human life so well that it in fact it “re-created” it?. Over time the new race of “skin-jobs” develope the ability to reproduce, and over the course of their evolution thereafter they loose those funky “cylonish” abilities that I mentioned. Say if we whent back in time and took the DNA of an ancient human, would it not show small diferences? And what exactly is the “small” diference in Baltars test that shows who is and who is not a cylon?
After watching this show for 4 years now I’m going to go out on a limb and give this theory FROM THE VERY BEGINING.
February 14th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
This is the re-imagined version of BSG. There is not, nor has there ever been, a tie between the original BSG and this one. The only link the two shows have are whatever RDM and the other writers thought they could make work in the new Battlestar. There is no connection between the two.
And traveling at relativistic speeds, it is quite possible for thousands of years to travel on the outside, while only a few passing on the inside.
February 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
After seeing this episode, there was a line that Cavil said that supports a theory I have had since “Revelations”. When “Revelations” and “Sometimes a Great Notion” aired, I found it interesting that even though they showed a shot of Earth and the North American continent at the end of Season 3, they never showed any recognizeable continents when the fleet reached Earth. I then remembered comments that Ron D. Moore said when people asked him about Earth months ago. He said, “We’ll get to a place we call Earth by the end of the series.” Then it hit me: what if their Earth is not the same as our Earth? What if their Earth is just a planet that happens to be called “Earth”, and our planet Earth is a different planet they haven’t discovered yet? I felt even better about my theory when Cavil said this to Ellen when he asked her to help him recreate resurrection: “They destroyed the hub, but they don’t know about the colony. All you’re equipment is still there.” No guarantees that this is our Earth, but the fact still remains: I believe our Earth is the “promised land” that humanity will reach before the end. That would serve as a great poetic end to the series and explains Mary McDonnell’s comments that the end of the series “causes you to look at the entire series in a completely different way.” Let me know what you think, but I look forward to seeing the end as much as all of you!
February 14th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Is it just me or did it seem like the entire point of the last two episodes was to get rid of Zarek and get Anders shot in the back of the head (so that he can have an epiphany)? Also, talking the epiphany, anyone else get a kindergarden story time feeling out of the entire ordeal, It just seemed to much like everytime Anders had to stop Tigh or someone else was about to say something along the line of small child begging a parent to read him another chapter from a storybook. (I can just imagine a baby Tigh with an eyepatch)
-Sam Vagner
February 14th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
hello DarthPaul
i think that there has to be humans and cylons only because with the cylons, downloading is just data transferring where as what the humans were trying to do was download the essence of the individual or their soul as it were and they succeeded. i think that the 5 were human and downloaded into cylon bodies thus becoming cylons therefor being cylon from then on. humans had to be in the equation on earth also only because if there were only organics and centurions on earth the rift between centurion and organics would not have been there as much. look at Ellen. she has an affinity to the organics because they look like her where as the centurions were just tools. the centurions saw that they were treated differently than their organic brothers. that could only come from a human presence on earth. especially when the organics began to procreate naturally. they were becoming more like their creators. everybody being AI would eliminate the human struggle of the whole show. centurions and humans made up the 13th tribe and humans perfected the organic cylons while in transit to earth. Sam only said that the resurrection tech came with the 13th from Kobol not that there were organics on kobol. there could have been some organic templates on kobol and humans squashed that notion quick just like we squashed human cloning as immoral. technology had already ruined Kobol, that’s why they left supposedly had to leave. i think somebody here is working on human cloning if they haven’t done it already and they are keeping it on the low low. the same could have happened on Kobol and the 13th tribe took all that tech with them to form a perfect monotheistic society.
that is why centurions believe in one God just as their creators did. it would also give them a form of eternal life. the 13th tribe started out as all human but ended up human organic and centurion on earth. colonial centurions also wanted to be like their creators and was trying to make them. the 5 knew that the centurions would eventually wipe out their human creators if they didn’t treat them well and if they failed to create organics. and if they did create them, that would also spell the end of humanity because they were polytheistic. just like Saul said, they had to buy the humans some time. time to catch up. cylons are more advanced tech wise than the colonials.
just a theory
February 14th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
::First I apologise for the bad spelling lol, didn’t mean to send that in so soon
, stay away from the “tab” and “enter” keys fellow posters 
…now to finish
DarthPaul- I have a similar if not the same theory. We have heard over and over again, “This has all happened before and will happen again”. As soon as I saw Chiefs vision of his past life on earth I wondered. What really is the difference between, the colonial humans and the Cylon final 5 humans, or for that matter the other 8. I mean aside from a couple glowing eyeballs and the ability to link up to a raptor through your blood vessel, they are pretty much the same.
Is it not possible that a machine could replicate human life so well that it in fact it “re-created” it?. Over time the new race of “skin-jobs” develop the ability to reproduce, and over the course of their evolution thereafter they loose those funky “cylonish” abilities that I mentioned. Say if we went back in time and took the DNA of an ancient human, would it not show small differences? And what exactly is the “small” difference in Baltars test that shows who is and who is not a cylon?
After watching this show for 4 years now I’m going to go out on a limb and give this theory FROM THE VERY BEGINING.
-I’ve believe there has been a 3rd party in this story for some time, the lords of Kobal.
-The Lords of Kobal are Humans/Skin jobs, who “maybe.. maybe not” have “Bionic man/woman” style abilities. They call themselves humans and they arrive on Kobal and begin a Civilization. They over time create machines to do their dirty work. These machines eventually take human form, and eventually due to cross breeding they begin to reproduce. These new skin jobs revere their creators as gods. At some point there is a falling out between these new skin jobs and the Lords of Kobal. The new skin jobs rebel and split up into 12 tribes and the Lords of kobal make their way to earth.
::note it could also be that the Lords of Kobal Created Skin jobs, who became humans, who created their own machines, who rebelled and became the 13th tribe.
Either way there may still be some Lords of Kobal around. Which could explain The return of Starbuck.
February 14th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
“This is the re-imagined version of BSG. There is not, nor has there ever been, a tie between the original BSG and this one. The only link the two shows have are whatever RDM and the other writers thought they could make work in the new Battlestar. There is no connection between the two.”
As far as we know. And thats just what they want you to believe. After all it would fit in perfectly with the planet of the apes style twist. It would be that in fact it was indeed the same universe as the original! Now thats a twist ending!
February 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
1-New intro rocks!
2-Ohhhhhh…That’s why they did the tv movie the plan
3-I love this show!!!
February 14th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Okay, this episode was a major head!frak.
Things we I learned this episode:
-The final five were the ones to create the lower 8 ((YES LOWER EIGHT OTHERS)). So I guess they were technically the final five of the biological cylons? I guess.
- There WAS a 7, but his “brother” killed him.
- Cavil’s real name is John and was modeled after Ellen’s father…and she still frakked him on New Caprica. (Maybe Ellen has a daddy complex)
- Number 7’s name was Daniel. (and the men still outnumber the women, wtf God!Ellen?) Is Zarek or Gaeta the number 7 Daniel?
- Anders actually looks pretty hot bald (I think he looks hot no matter how his hair is). Also, is he like, dead now? He was brain dead, but does his subconscious transmit to wherever? And he didn’t get to tell Starbuck her “truth”. He played everything so very well.
- Not much Roslin this episode, but what there was, was very important. She essentially gave Lee the power of the Presidency, but she’ll take all the credit. That’s what I’m talkin’ bout. Also, did she have to cough like that at the end of her scene? I doesn’t wants her to die!
- Galactica is slowly dying (and I keep thinking it may be “the dying leader” and not Roslin…I can hope).
- Were the main eight ever children? The way Ellen talked, I got the impression they were.
- Tigh feeling his son with Caprica for the first time? Absolutely adorable. It really shows that he’s fallen deeply in love with this woman even though he’s “destined” to be with Ellen “forever”. And dude, we’re getting a little Tigh running around! Can’t help but think maybe the 6 line was modeled to look like Ellen in her younger days.
- Kate Vernon was absolutely beautiful last night. And I loved how the centurion went over and was so gentle with her by helping her. Shows they are able to do that and aren’t just killing machines (though they showed this before on Caprica when they were planting the trees, this showed more).
- Cavil knew about Ellen the ENTIRE time and never said a word. Does that mean he knew about the others?
- I really liked how Boomer got away with Ellen. So we’ve learned that they probably both survived and we’ll see them again.
- No Agathon’s the entire episode.
- John Hodgman was obviously the star of the entire episode.
Things I believe/hope we see next week:
- More Caprica and Tigh
- Ellen’s reaction to Caprica and Tigh
- Some Agathon things. Hera especially.
- Hotdog attempting to be fatherly and not just having some toys in his bed…baby toys, get your minds out of the gutter.
- MORE ROSLIN. Obviously I’d say this, but more Roslin and more Adama and more Roslin with Adama.
- What the frak is Kara? Maybe she’s Daniel…come back as a woman…
February 14th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
backing up for a moment, so when we see Ellen resurrecting on Cavil’s ship i’m assuming this happened right after she drank from the poisoned cup given to her by Tigh? also, did they ever explain why she woke up “aware”, whereas the other F4 didn’t? was she the only one that wasn’t reprogrammed with new memories?
February 14th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Hehe I loved how PC was the brain doctor (for those who don’t know he’s from the Mac commercials “hi, im a PC” “and im a Mac”). He was very entertaining.
Okay, so my theory is that Starbuck is the 7th cylon. Ellen, or Cavel I can’t remember which, said that Daniel’s DNA had been corrupted. I think that someone fixed it (maybe cavel maybe on of the final five) and changed Daniel into Kara. She is so closely tied with the cyclons, there’s no way she’s not. Ellen said that Daniel was an artist and it cant be a coincident that Kara was drawing that symbol of the supernova since she was little. So I gots all my money on Kara being the final final (final) cylon. (it could also be a tribute to why they changed the starbuck from the original series, who was a guy, to kara in the new series… just a thought)
Also, is it just me or was that nurse being a jerk at the end when she was telling Kara that her husbans a veggitable?
February 14th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I feel like I’ve been punched in the nose, kicked in the groin, body slammed, lit on fire, and shot by a firing squad all at the same time. Gonna call 911 now. If I don’t make it, I hope there’s a resurrection ship nearby… Ellen! Is that you?????????
February 14th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Gaseousclay, I think all of them would be aware if they died and were resurrected. Kind of like a reset. Notice how Ellen was freaked out at first and was momentarily panicked by the cylon and then it was like” Oh yeah, help me out of this tank”. Also, if Anders is brain dead, wouldnt he resurrect as well? Who he is is gone, so that would mean he is only there in body and his essence/programming left to a new body. The only problem with that is there is no nearby hub, that we know of.
February 14th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Ok folks, last nights episode was, no shit, no doubt, AWESOME. If the entire BSG series were a porno, last night would have been a money shot!
Not going to write a book here but I want to throw out a few points-
1. I was wrong on HOW the final five stopped the Cylon war but I was right in that they WERE responsible for it ending (see my speculation post on the last two episode boards). I kind of like that these Cylons are out to save humanity.
2. You noticed how John (I love it that he HATES that name) spoke of Ellen’s equipment on the ‘colony’? I’m willing to bet that this colony is the Cylon home world that they left for forty odd years ago.
3. I find it interesting how the Galactica herself has become a symbol of the state of humanity. The ship is fracturing and broken like the spirit and minds of humans of the fleet and it will need the Cylon’s technology and culture to rebuild and re-infuse it with new life.
4. Lee had only one short bit in this episode but what a bit it is. He is going to wind up being the guiding force in the reforging of a new society, one that involves both Cylons and humans. It is about time they recognized that the old ways are done. I see a senate or parliament being formed with representatives from each ship.
5. Ellen revealed so much about the Cylons, but what was most important was that she made it obvious that Cavil (John) was the guiding force behind the Cylon holocaust. HE is the evil bastard amongst humanities children.
6. How awesome is it to see the possible redemption of Boomer???
7. Damiel???? (A possible reference to Daniel Greystone????) Greystone invents the Cylons before the final five arrive but could the #7 model that John so brazenly killed have been an homage to him??
8. NEXT WEEK- God, Tori is a super king kamahea-mahea BIOTCH! All the time trying to screw everyone over. I am looking forward to seeing how Ellen and Saul reconcile and how Ellen feels about her hubby and Six and jr.
THEORY TIME: We saw that Cavil was based on Ellen’s father. I believe that Six was based on Ellen herself.
What say you all?
February 14th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Hey everyone. New here and I have to admit, I skimmed most of the comments posted here so I might just be repeating something already brought up before.
I truly think Daniel is Kara’s father and that the Kara we know now in the show is a a pure human/cylon hybrid. When she returned from the dead, Kara couldn’t articulate how she knew the location of Earth. It was just a ‘feeling’ she had. The hybrids can travel across space intuitively, like how you can navigate through a familiar place in the dark; you just know where things are. The difference between us and the hybrids are that their intuitions spans the mindboggling expanses of time and space. A planet, star, whatever is not simply located in a a specific jump coordinate to them – it’s just in a place they know is simply there.
Cavil had a great speech in this episode describing how limited human comprehension is, lamenting his inability to see and hear things that a pure machine would be capable of. The hybrids are capable of seeing all of manifestations, but the fact is that they are still inherently part human and are limited to human words (hence the ‘Word Salad’.) They were created by the Cylons but never achieved the perfect combination of both races like in Kara, born from the marriage between Socrata and Daniel.
But yeah, that’s my weird convoluted theory. We’ll see how things play out.
Oh, and John Hodgeman’s appearance was nothing less than amazing. It’s funny with a show about a war between machines and humans, we have a ‘PC’ on our side. I wonder if the Centurions run on Leopard.
February 14th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Anders can’t resurrect if there is not resurrection ship around him. Someone has to fix him in order for him to live OR someone has to fix build a new resurrection ship. Given that Ellen states they need each of the F5 to create the technology of the resurrection ship, someone better fix Anders soon…
February 14th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
LORDS OF KOBOL THEORY
A lot has been tossed around about the beings of light and the Lords of Kobol on here. This is my theory on it. Bear in mind that this is NON-SPOILER theory. All my own ideas, no spoiler site information. 100% beef, no filler.
Matt- The Lords of Kobol and the Beings of Light are the same people. The Lords of Kobol created humanity and then Humanity created the 13th Tribe.
I believe that the Lords of Kobol have been watching and waiting to see how things are going to pan out and render judgment on their creations. I think that in the end, the human race will end but not in the way predicted (See Head Six)
STARBUCK- Is an Angel named Aurora and is guiding humanity on the path.
HEAD SIX- Also an Angel leading humanity to the end of it’s existence as a race…. and to the creation of another with the Cylons!
HEAD BALTAR- Also an Angel, although perhaps not the most altruistic one. Perhaps an incarnation of the MOST BEAUTIFUL angel, Lucifer.
HERA- She is the linchpin. She is why things have changed so much. In the Cycle of Time, she is a first. Humans and Cylons have destroyed each other time and again over the ages but this time it’s different because Hera represents a unification of the factions, not a division.
I would love to hear your thoughts and speculation on this….
February 14th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
my theory regarding Cavil and his being modeled after Ellen’s father is that Cavil is none other than Daniel Greystone but in old age. Cavil clearly had an aversion to the name John, so maybe he got stuck with Greystones likeness but his grandson’s name (?). it seems reasonable to me that the 13 cylon models were modeled after their creators as i’ve stated above but then again, the timeline would probably make all of this inconsistent with everything. bah, this is doing my head in.
February 14th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I am still confused: because if the head 6 and head Baltar were what the “signs” were to the 5 as time went on, what were the 5 seeing? Anders says the signs were all different to everyone==that still needs to be clarified.
I am still unclear as to why the 12 tribes made the 13th, and why they left for their own world. They left peacefully because they left markers, correct? The resurrection technology was created by the Lords of Kobol, correct?
Also, according to their mythology, why did Athena kill herself?
A
February 14th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I go with the others and think that Daniel ist Kara’s Father. In one of my comments for episode “Guess What’s Coming to Dinner” I already
spoke about Kara’s Father and that Starbuck is a hybrid (or something like this). Back then I thout that Kara’s father is some kind of cylon god.
Now I’m conviced that Kara’s father is Cylon No. 7 a.k.a. Daniel.
Glad to see Cottle again. He was quite gentle with Kara.
A lot of “word salad” for me (as a non native english speaker) in this episode.
Hard to keep up.
February 14th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
OMG! Where do I start! I think this was probably one of the best episodes EVER! At least in my opinon! It was almost like watching a bsg movie, the mythology is just oozing. I love it!
I loved the way Anders turned into his own little version of the hybrid with the poetic prophetic dream imagery. I want to rewind over and over again to see if there are any more secrets in the words he was rambling.
So now we know there are 13 cylon models and it was Cavel (Aka John) who erased the memories of the final 5 from the minds of the other cylons and Cavel who prevented the final 5 from remembering who they are. Who knew just how unbelievalby emotional Cavel actually is. That one, he is so angry at the way his ancestors were treated that he just can’t seem to get past it. Two he knows he’s more than his body that his consiousness is huge, but just doesn’t seem to know how to escape the limitations of his body and it infuriates him. It actually made me want to give him a big hug. LOL But it basically means that Cavil is probably the reason that the other models hadn’t experienced love. He may have been the one that convinced them too attack the 12 colonies. He may be the one who’s got them to hunt humans relentlessly throughout the galaxy. What… is he like the devil or something?
I wonder if Hera is the reincarnation of Daniel. What with her drawings in her books… but then again children always draw soo…. Kara could be the reincarnation of Daniel. Her apartment on Caprica was covered with art work, her cabin on the demetrius was covered with art work. Kara has always been sensative… could she be the reincarnation of Daniel?
And now we know that Kobol was the creation site of the original cylons, were the lords of Kobol the original creators of the cylons? And it was the centurians that first came up with the one true god ideals. WTF How did that happen?
And I’ve gotta say, that even though at first I was not happy with Ellen being the final cylon this episode has completely redeemed her as the final cylon. She’s a compassionate creator who loves her children. What I wonder is if there was a battle on Earth a holocaust… who was it between. Was it between cylons? or between cylons and humans? Where humans already living on Earth when the 13th tribe showed up? Is that where the war came from?
I looooove how resurrection technology was created by the creators on Kobol and fell by the wayside when cylons began to procreate naturally. I love how it so closely relates to real life human history, with the Egyptians resurrections spells and reincarnation and the afterlife. A lot of true Egyptian resurrection spirituality is about remembering all of the lives you’ve ever lived in your current body.
Or a spell is preformed at death so that in your next life you will remember the previous life and all the other lives you’ve lived before giving you great wisdom and power and knowing who you truley are knowing that no one really dies, they transfer to their next life essentially making them immortal which we all are whether we remember it or know it or not. It totally reminds me of the cylons and their resurrection technology. Death is no longer an end, it’s a learning experience.
Could it be that the lords of Kobol where Egyptians… or Atlanteans that left for another world… perhaps during the global flood that has been described in many different earth cultural mythologies and even has basis in science. Perhaps some fled to another world to survive. Then created the cylons and used thier resurrection memory transfer to create the cylons and their immortal race. Only to war with them and have those cylons return to earth where some surviving humans still lived.
Even coolers still, what if the original reason for creating the cylons was so some of the humans (The lords of Kobol) could find a way of achieving immortality, without having to reincarnate. What if they modified the Egyptian resurrection spell for remembering all your past lives in your next body to transferring your consciousness at death into a brand new body. And some of the lords of Kobol could have become corrupted by this new invisible type of power. What if they started to feel megalomaniacal and started to try and rule the rest of the humans or something to that effect. Causing a great war. The humans that didn’t download into cylon bodies left for the 12 colonies while the rest went back to Earth. OMG OMG OMG I love RDM!!! hahaha Just preliminary theory. LOL
February 14th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
PT 2 Sorry I had too haha so many more theories just came to my brain. What if the original memory transfer was more on a metaphysical level. That the lords of kobol didn’t make metal centurions first, they made skin jobs first. Empty vessels to transfer their consciousness into at death. And because their original transfer was on more of a metaphysical level that love was a big part of it which helped the 13th tribe to evolve into loving beings. And love giving them the ability to procreate made them lose their desire for resurrection technology after they got back to earth.
But the final 5, fearing that the 12 colonies would make the same mistake they made re created the ressurection technology so they would be able to go to the 12 colonies and warn them. But because they didn’t know exactly how the original lords of kobol did it they made it more of a technological process. Essentially meaning that the new cylons on the 12 colonies would have to start from scratch again. Learning to love again, finding a way to procreate naturally again. Everything has happened before and it will happen again.
I guess the to go even beyond the cylons, humans and lords of Kobol. What if the one true god, which would be everything and everyone together as one sent angels who loved them all to help guide them out of the repeating cycle and come together as one. Which seems to be the theme. Things are happening that go above and beyond the plans of the final 5. Who were the final 5 before they were ever cylons? Where they beings of light who chose to be cylons in that lifetime?
February 14th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
it’s been long time that i have writen on here so here goes…….
okay start with theme of season….. the theme of this season life and rebirth. what i mean by that is that the charaters will go down and down into death and come out with a differnt view of life…. but also we can link this to homer’s odyssey with main charater.
earth…… the reveil of earth and that the final tribe of humanity is cylon…. that kobol was in fact the birth place of all this was the first cylon war….. and that where the saying “all this happened and all this will happen again” this was passed down throw the ages to tell the tribe to stop all this and start an natural life between the cylons and human and it’s possbily that HERA is the one to stop this…
final cylon…. after finding out who the final four where the romours on who the final five opened a can of worms… even one betted who was the final five….. the writers for the show gave alot of Red Herring with baltar, adama and roslin… but the clues was left out with season 1 with batlar say to head six that Ellen Tigh might be or not a cylon, many belive that was a red herring even me… but was in fact way to make use think that…. but also if you look at it she is like the final five in the case that the fineal four were close tto power and get close….. and also it is posbliy that three (D’Anna Biers) knew why the final five and all the mess went wth them with the death of the seven model Daniel…. and that is why D’Anna said she was sorry.
seventh model….. its posibily that he his still alive with the posibabilty of baltar and is story ark….. but also that six and tigh child is daniel.
John Cavil, Daniel and Ellen Tigh…. when the back story of the releship… beteween these charcter came into place… i get the felling that it is simlar…. to the story of god and lucifer…. of first child was jelous of another son and start a war to prove mother right….
one more thing
Athena to your answar… do not read the mythology has god like beings it is posibly that athena was the first hybrid and was shocked that her birth didnt unit the tribes…. simal to the story of hera i was saying before…. yes there porbly gods or god lived on kobol… there is evidance that happed but there are sumthing in this univers might hve been mixed up with truth and myth…. but one other posibliaty is that athena killing herself is in fact a proface simaler to the deing leader and that Sharon Agathon was shoked what happed or the death of her child…. the reason i say this is that the gods of kobol or the true only god has been trying to get human and cylon live together and has a big re-star button and that were the saying “all this happened and all this will happen again” came from has a warning that if sumthing doesnt change, it will start over again until they get it right.
February 14th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
The interesting question about Daniel (if he is Daniel Greystone) is why does he create the cylons?
-Does he know what they will become and either doesn’t care or thinks he can come up with a better cylon?
-Is he trying to replace the production line of Daniel skinjobs that Cavil killed and then either rejoin the cylons or get revenge on Cavil?
-Is he based on the original creator of the Earth cylons?
If Kara is Daniel’s child he would have to be fairly old by the time he came across Starbuck’s mom?
February 14th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
I am not going to theorize anymore, I am just going to sit (patiently) and see what else BSG will unfold. This week’s episode was so expository, but I think it was a good spoonful of sugar for a lot of the fans. Some moments that will be most memorable in this episode were:
1. Ellen and the centurion guard. This interaction attested strongly to the theme of the show. Ellen, who is a major player in all of this, doesn’t order him to help her out the tub, but asks him nicely. When he extends his hand, he realizes that he has to retract the sharp tips of his digits for her to hold on. It was as if this machine was humanized just by this warm interaction.
2. Ellen and Boomer meet. This interaction was heavy in Adam and Eve allusion. Of all fruits on that plate why? why RDM? did she have to go for that apple! lol totally meant that Ellen was offering Boomer the gift (or regift) of humanity. However cliche, I still liked this moment and it also foreshadowed Boomer, betraying a side, YET AGAIN! Damn 8’s, can we trust them???
3. Starbuck and Anders. The love is gone! Two things, Sackhoff (sp?) played Kara beautifully in this episode because she portrayed her as sincerely desperate to figure out what the heck she is, something that was lost for a moment during the mutiny episodes. They clearly needed each other for alternative reasons, and now that the original Anders is back (pre- colony infiltration) I doubt he loves Kara in the same way. In the episode, he was definitely crazed by his apparent mission. Favorite quote: “You owe me, Kara!”
4. Ellen and John. Oedipus complex. I think there is a tendency to think that Ellen was aware of her existence as a cylon while on New Caprica, hence her swirl thing. But of course she wasn’t aware. And I think it was just a sick joke on Cavil’s part being the one who knew everything.
5. The “What happened to ‘7′ reveal. My favorite because I had always wondered what happened with that, now I can tell we are all harping on theories as to who it is. Can I just say that I still think it is the base star’s hybrid? You know the androgynous “JUMP!” girl. She seems frakked up, and I always wondered why her? What made them create a human cylon to use to integrate their ships systems? Ok stop theorizing.
6: Boomer’s first sign of anger in this episode: “Who would I love?!” I believe she says to Ellen. And then it cuts to Tyrol. Totally cheesy goodness. If she comes back to the fleet, will she try to give it another shot?
Least faves:
1. Tori: GO AWAY!
2. Caprica Six and Tigh. Now that Ellen is back (and on her way to Galactica) this relationship is far from proper.
3. Ishay (sp?) interrupting Kara’s private moment with Anders after the surgery. What doctor would blatantly point out the fact there was no brain activity during this clearly intimate moment?
Okay, one more theory based question:
The reason why I didn’t think Ellen was really going to be resurected was that I didnt think she’d be resurrected in that fashion. But when she was resurrected in the tub, it raised some questions about how the final five were resurrected and brought into the colonies. Clearly, they aged, (Adama raises that point angrily when Tigh admits he’s a cylon) So how and why the difference in this resurrection technology? Did Ellen set aside an extra full form body for herself or something? But wait, didn’t they explain it as if John Cavil sent them into the colonies with alternate memories (if they were babies being born in the colonies they wouldnt need false memories) The more I type the more confused I’m getting with this resurrection thing.
February 14th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Did anyone else notice John Hodgman from the Daily Show in that episode? Considering how serious the show is at this point, it was kind of weird thing to have someone with a sense of humor making light of the fact Anders had a bullet in his head and his brain was mush. I’m having a hard time deciding whether casting him there was a mistake. I like Hodgman a lot, especially on the Daily Show, and if I didn’t know him from there, I’m wondering if the scene would have worked out. I guess I’ve been polluted by pop culture in that regard. Although maybe in a future episode the other guy from the Apple commercials will be blasted by a Cylon Centurion!
February 14th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
I was watching “No Escape” and I must admit, I was surprised by not only the fact that there was apparently, a 13th Cylon, but the fact that his name was Daniel. All I can say is, “HOLY FRACK! I’M A CYLON!!” (my name is Daniel in real life, and yes I know it’s a biblical name). Needless to say, the discovery of a 13th Cylon has now become really interesting, though its sad to know that the 13th Cylon was boxed and never made it out into mass production. Kinda makes me wonder who it was, if maybe a couple of them were made before John Cavil (who apparently has an Oedipus Complex in addition to being a Cain-like figure {I’m refering to Cain from the bible, now Helena Cain} in addition to his psychosis) spiked the Cylon Resurrection Koolaid or what would it have been like to see him. But now, I’m beginning to wonder if maybe I could use this “Daniel” model Cylon in my machinima comic book fan fiction series.
But I did call one thing exactly in one of my previous comments a while back: My prediction about why Cavil didn’t want the others to find out who the final five were was partially right (mainly, the part about knowing about the truth about the destruction of the 13th Colony and that he knew the FInal Five were in the Colonies and attacked the Colonies with the intent of killing them).
February 14th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Athene said:
So, when they all died on Earth, they resurrected on the other planet, and used some kind of stasis to not age for close to 2,000 years and got to the colonies.
No. They didn’t resurrect on another planet. They said they resurrected on a ship they put in orbit around the planet (Earth). They didn’t use some kind of stasis. They traveled relativistically at sub-luminal speeds (close to the speed of light) which itself slowed down time for them (remember Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity?
February 14th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
CB2001 Daniel being a biblical name kinds of made me think of something. In the bible… isn’t there a Sol (King Soloman), Galen (I think it was somewhere in the old testament), Samuel (the prophet Samuel), Daniel (Daniel and the Lions den), and an Ellen (I think she was a queen but I’m not sure.)… the only one I don’t think is in there is Tory.
February 14th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Athena said:
Anders said they saw the signs but differently, some saw a man–i was confused by what they saw as signs. Other models?
Sounds to me like head characters warned them about the destruction of Earth. They saw different people that no one else could see, just like Baltar sees a six and Caprica Six sees a Baltar.
February 14th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Kristy- I don’t know about the others, but Tigh’s name isn’t Sol, it’s Saul (like Paul, but with an S instead of a P). I don’t know of Sol or Saul is a part of the bible, though.
February 14th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Saul is part of the bible: before Paul was an apostle, he was a greedy horrible man named Saul, but when he saw Christ’s image, he became a believer and God changed his name to Paul.
Sharon, Simon, Adam(a), Daniel are all biblical names, but I dont think that means anything signiffy.
February 14th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Rekka – It probably doesn’t have any significance I just thought it was cool. But I wasn’t referring to Paul/Sol I was referring to Sol/Soloman
February 14th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
I watched this episode three times because it contains so much information.
1. In the episode it was stated that they exchanged the ability to create human forms for peace. So the #7 being a character that takes place before the first war would be impossible.
2. The fact that the number 7s were contaminated does not mean there were not a few that were created before that occured. On the other hand it was stated that they were permantly boxed.
3. Somewhere there is a colony (planet) containing the resurrection equipment. I could almost bet that is where they head.
4. I hope they explain how Boomer is able to find the fleet.
5. I think I got the history. The thirteenth tribe was created by man. They had a war and left. There had to be some kind of communication otherwise there could not be a temple giving their location. The 13th tribe destroyed themselves and the five survivors headed back. They find everyone has left kobal and they are having a free for all with a new generation of robots.
6. Where does Kara come in? If all this equipment is on a colony that no one knows about, maybe these people have been shadowing both fleets and she is a third type of AI that has been perfected beyond the skinjobs. I do not like the idea of “Beings of Light” but at the same time if memorys can be downloaded, why do the bodies have to be human.
Some thoughts for the day.
February 14th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Here is my simple thought. Cylon resurrection technology actually has roots in the original ability for Cylons to reproduce (even though that abilit was removed in later lines). Tigh is not a later line obviously so that is why he is able to have a child with Caprica 6. So, the question is “who” is being resurrected in Cap 6? Daniel? Ellen referred to #1 how she recalled him as a boy. So he had to start from somewhere. Was the creation process actually Ellen giving birth to #1?
February 14th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Still say the first cylons were created by a super advanced race of lizards.
February 14th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0khh8nClHAM&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=bsg+cylon+origin&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f
February 14th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
proof youtube.com/watch?v=0khh8nClHAM&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=bsg+cylon+origin&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f
February 14th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Sorry heres a better link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0khh8nClHAM&eurl
February 14th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
srry heres a beres a direct youtube link. youtube.com/watch?v=0khh8nClHAM&eurl
February 14th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
To clear things up a little bit, here’s what happened after the FF ended the First Cylon War.
After the Cylons agreed to the peace, the FF began working with them to develop humanoid models. Thus far in Cylon-Centurion time, they had only been able to create hybrids, (see the experiments in Adama’s flashbacks in Razor, and the original Hybrid.) The hybrid is all Centurion tech.
The FF create John Cavil first. He begins to assist in their research, and grows angry for being imperfect compared to the machines he wishes he could be. After they successfully create the other 8 humanoid models, he contaminates the Daniel line. Soon after, he kills the FF by venting the oxygen of whatever room they were in. Before they can resurrect, he implants false memories in them, using the same process that is used for the sleeper Cylons. He implants them into Colonial society one at a time in different points in time, so they can experience firsthand the “horrors” of humanity. They have no knowledge of their being Cylon. He hoped that once they were killed, they would download with their new memories, and agree with him about how awful humanity is.
As for speculation, here’s what I got:
1. The whole Starbuck being related to the Daniel is very plausible. It would very neatly explain her resurrection, while at the same time allowing her to retain her humanity.
2. RDM, once he says something, means it. They have found Earth. It is nuked, it’s lifeless. Deal with it.
3. As for Ellen’s research equipment, it may very well be on the Cylon homeworld. Or, it may still be on Earth. That too, is plausible because, in any one of those locations, she actually conducted her research. It will be interesting to see what role it plays, and I fully expect it to be the place where the humans with their rebel Cylons meet back up with Cavil.
4. Galactica being the dying leader would be a nice twist. In a way, she was the “leader” of the ships of the fleet. And, I don’t know about you guys, but I love that ship. Hearing a slightly toasty Adama weepily telling Tyrol to do whatever to save their gal brought a tear to my eye.
5. I have said this before, and I shall say it again. This show is not overly mystical, convoluted, or supernatural. Bringing back Ellen in the way they did only proves that. What she did was give a rational, believable explanation to the seeming mysticism behind the final five and their existence in Colonial society, as well as their memories.
How long is it till Friday?
February 14th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Wow you seem certain. LOL If you think everything is completley mechanical and not the slightest bit spiritual then you are missing out on a huge part of the show. It’s not all spiritual or mystical but it is not all mechanical and technological either. It’s a mixture of both.
February 14th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
A bunch of things come to mind this episode.
1) I think it was really telling that in the recap-esque sequence at the beginning they showed that time when the nuke went off on Caprica and ripped through Baltar’s house. This is the kind of thing that we’ve just sort of accepted, but I don’t really think it’s ever been explained. I think it’s becoming clear that whatever happened to Starbuck, happened to him too.
2) I don’t buy any of the Daniel being Daniel Graystone stuff. For starters, I’m not sure the timing fits, because these episodes have been written for a while and I don’t even know if Caprica (Series) was greenlit yet. Even still, I don’t think RDM would sink to the level of opening up such a huge mystery only to backdoor his no pilot. I think we’ve seen that he’s above that petty, anti-dramatic, commercialism (at least, I hope so).
3) Re: Cylon #s and Daniel’s identity: it’s now clear to me that the numbering of the cylons puts them from oldest to youngest. So if Daniel is somehow around, I think he should be mid-to-late 20s (younger than #6 [Caprica, Natalie, Gina, et al] but older #8 [Sharons]).
I personally would like Daniel’s death to be a real death. Maybe show him in a flashback, just to give us some clarity, but I think a real, permanent death makes the seriousness of Cavil’s crime greater.
Some questions:
- What is ‘the colony’ of Ellen’s that Cavil mentioned?
- What are ‘the angels’ Anders mentions? Head-Six once called herself an angel. I doubt the connection is an accident
February 15th, 2009 at 12:08 am
dont mean to brag here but some one tell me i am the cylon g-d i called it, ellen knew all along, or atleast had an inkling she was more than human. see “what about ellen” for more detales. i keep trieing to reorganise sams story but tory’s theories keep getting in my way. also id take sams rambeling as the 2s take the hybrids. even when hes speeking as pc guy (he and nirs ishey are assholes in this episode btw) puts it “word salad” what ever comes out of his mouth should be treeted like the word of the gods or the cylon god etc especialy the incoherent dribble. thats the most important part. thats where the details can be lost. i have already watched it 2 or 3 times but need to see it again to get better details. so say we all
February 15th, 2009 at 12:10 am
Kirsty:
I said “overly” spiritual. Spirituality and what it means to be alive are huge parts of the show, no doubt. Even the existence of god/gods is a major pillar. But, I want people to avoid using them as deus ex machinas. The show will end letting us decide whether it was divine guidance or secular coincidence. It’s just unlike for this show to rely on panaceas, that’s all.
February 15th, 2009 at 12:20 am
I didn’t like this episode as much as I thought I would. I am glad that we were given so much information, but it seemed like too much of an easy way out. And believe me, I say that with caution.
I didn’t like how a 13th cylon (Daniel) was dropped on us with 5 episodes to go. Of course, this sparked a flurry of theories posted above me and I’m sure this is exactly what RDM and Co. wanted, but this really needs to be explained so much more. I had a feeling there would be a 13th cylon model (with the 13th colonies and all I figured there would be some correlation) but I say it is too late to throw it into the mix.
I did like Tigh and Six. I’m interested in seeing where this goes.
I didn’t like how Adama was dead-set against the cylon-technology fixing the Galactica. He was content enough allying with them to “find a new home” and putting cylon technology aboard every ship in the fleet (just a “small” reason behind Gaeta’s actions in the last two episodes) that it almost made Gaeta’s revolution feel like a waste.
I did like that he changed his mind, but not without some liquid courage.
I didn’t like that Cavil knew everything all along and is responsible for everything. It kind of makes sense that he is so much older looking than all of the other cylons, though.
I did like the power-shift from Roslin to Lee. It was timely, appropriate and necessary.
And lastly, I did NOT like PC as Brain Doctor Word Salad. It should have been a completely unknown actor, or at least someone who isn’t on a commercial that everyone in the world has seen. It was too awkward for me.
Maybe I’m too picky, but I’m afraif that Richard Hatch was right. The show needs to go beyond this season, but it does need to end and not feel rushed. I just needed to SEE, not HEAR what Anders TOLD us. We needed to SEE what happened thousands of years ago. So let’s go back in time so we can all be on the same page.
Overall, good episode, but not great. We need GREAT final episodes.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:11 am
Baltar is #7
Starbuck is the last living Lords of Kabol, making her the 1 true God & the oldest living Cylon.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Wow. I think that Daniel is definitely Kara’s dad because of the piano/artistic connection. I gave myself a pat on the back for making that up, but it looks like everyone else is thinking the same thing. Great minds think alike I suppose.
Did everyone see the preview for next week? It looks like we might find out the meaning of “The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.”
February 15th, 2009 at 2:13 am
Overall a great episode, it gave us so much info but it still leaves for me a huge unsolved question
just so i can get it clear in my head the time line we know after this episode is:
We have the 12 human tribes leaving Kobal 3000 years ago and creating the twelve colonies
We have the 13th cylon tribe doing the same and after an unknown amount of time arriving at earth and starting a civilisation
2000 years later earth is destroyed in an unexplained war but thinking of our earth and the cold war they could have just killed themselves
5 cylons of the 13th tribe survived and decided to head to find their long lost kinsmen from Kobal – pretty much the same as the humans in reverse.
travelling with out jump drive it takes them 1000 years to do the return trip ( it can be implied that it would have taken as long for the original 13th tribe to get to earth and that the 12th tribes also didn’t have jump drive and so also travelled to the colonies via time dilation, but thats so geeky we are unlikely ever to know)
They get to the colonies just as the cylon war started (- talk about bad luck 1000 years travelling and you miss by 5 to 10 years)
the final five 13th tribe cylons broker a peace with the centurians in return for creating human bodys for them, we have to assume the centurions did this because of thier gods first command – reproduce naturally.
old centuains are scraped/transferred into the new clyons – cavil/john takes over – the razor cylons and hybrid go awol
cavil/john puts saul back into the colonies soon after the cylon war (meaning adama can relax over the whole “hero” thing as the cylons broke the armistice agreement first)
he then slowly introduces the rest of the final 5 in staggered intervals (so as to help RDM explain away the age and history plot hole of the final 5)
OK so this all makes a kind of sense except for ONE HUGE THING, who the hell was Pithia, and how did she write her scrolls. Even if a cylon from the 13th tribe turned round as soon as they found earth how would they find the 12 colinys. Did pithia get told by a head being what was going on in the 13th tribe?
also how was thier a star map of earths sky on kobal? who could have put it thier as the key(the arrow) was on caprica.
it seems to me that the beings of light/lords of kobal/the one true god did a hell of a lot of running around giving mystic messages, dropping off arrows and building star maps not to mention having a strange fascination with an opera house
anyways sorry for the rambling post ive been watching bsgcast for years but never got round to posting before.
Tom
ps you guys better still be doing your geek news other wise i dont know how i would survive the end of bsg
February 15th, 2009 at 3:15 am
BSG fan, I think you are confused, yes, in the original 1970’s Battlestar Galactica with Lorne Green and Richard Hatch the cylons were created by a reptillian species, however in the New 1990’s Battlestar Galactica we watch every week with Edward Olmos and Michael Hogan, the cylons were created by humans as our slaves then they rebelled, and now we have the story of the final five cylons creating the signifigant eight.
February 15th, 2009 at 3:19 am
Sorry, the new Galactica started in 2004, but my comment remains the same.
February 15th, 2009 at 3:52 am
I’m finally chiming in after reading a lot of threads and what not. Whew. What a ride so far! I gotta admit, I didn’t really like this episode when I first watched it, especially after the pure adrenaline rush of “The Oath” and “Blood on the Scales”. But after a second viewing, I appreciated it more and actually liked Kate Vernon’s performance. (That woman looks GREAT in black! Loved the hair, too). I also really dug the rapid fire revelations that Anders was spewing. Poor guy couldn’t get his words out fast enough before some putz interrupted him, or before his body started seizing.
As some of you have alluded to, this was one frakkin HUGE load of info dumped into our laps. And now we’re given less than a week to dissect it all. We’re all ripe with questions and speculations. Isn’t it great? And just think, there are only FIVE episodes left! Just FIVE episodes for everything to be explained and dissected some more.
This show will indeed be mourned. I’m really hoping CAPRICA will deliver the goods the way BSG has. In any event, I’m pretty sure that RDM & Co., will further explain what the Cylons’ “plan” really was. I think Kate Vernon will perhaps make a few cameos.
And gross. Cavil definitely has serious “mommy/daddy issues.” Ewwww.
Btw, can somebody please tell me…what’s a “SWIRL?”
February 15th, 2009 at 6:49 am
A lot of people seem to be disappointed with Adama’s reluctance to use the organic Cylon resin on the ship when he was all for using Cylon technology during the past episodes. I think there is good explanation behind this seemingly out-of-character move:
Updating the jump capacity of the Galactica using Cylon technology is one thing, completely “upholstering” his beloved ship, his ‘old girl’ using some living alien goo is another. In the last two episodes before “No Exit”, it seemed that Adama was fine with the whole Cylon alliance. But we have to remember that his decision to update the jump drives also stemmed from necessity–the fleet needed it to survive, to find another planet in the shortest time possible. Maybe the Admiral likes to think that he is ready to reconcile with the Cylons. Maybe he believes that idealistically, Cylons and Humans can work together. But like Lee said to Tigh during “The Oath”: “We can pretend to put it behind us, exchange lofty words about an alliance, but if this is what survival has come to…” In other words, the humans can forgive, but they will never forget. And they HAVE to forgive, or else they wont survive. “It’s all we’ve got,” Adama says to Lee. “It’s all they left us,” he answers bitterly.
The Human-Cylon Alliance was never forged out of a sincere reconciliation. It was based solely on survival. To put it in Laura’s terms, it probably wasn’t the “right thing” to do (not at that time, at least, because it takes time for wounds to heal), but it was the “smart thing” to do. Adama made peace with the enemy based on expediency. Once the Cylon Alliance got a little bit too personal, however; once it “got into the skin” of Galactica, the xenophobia began to creep back in. Adama’s reluctance to use the resin shows us that there’s a part of him that still sees the Cylons as enemies. And this is not out-of-character at all. On the contrary, given Adama’s military (as well as personal) history with the Cylons, it is completely believable.
Forgiveness is a word we like to throw around a lot. For us, it represents the solution to all the violence that is happening around the world today. When we hear about ceasefires or peace treaties being signed by two warring factions, we feel a little bit better. But BSG shows us, once again, that things are never that simple. That some wounds run far too deep to be magically healed by a piece of paper and a couple of signatures. This is not to say, however, that BSG is a downright pessimistic show. The uncertainty that surrounds the Human-Cylon Alliance is just one of the show’s many intriguing studies on the theme of reconciliation. I think that the remaining episodes will to explore this theme in greater depth. The question of whether or not Humans and Cylons truly live in peace with each other will be answered, one way or another. Personally, I believe this answer will be a positive one, one that will come from the characters who once lead the way and continues to quietly do so: Helo, Athena and wittle baby Hera
February 15th, 2009 at 8:00 am
Cavil/John complains that the Centurions were slaves of humantety, but he treat them like crap worse then any human…
What the frak?
February 15th, 2009 at 8:24 am
Lot of exposition this episode but more must be on the way. Still unexplained are the Lords of Kobol. Here is a list of the notable things they have done:
Built the Temple of Athena on Kobol
Hand out visions at the Temple of Hope/Temple of the Five
Resurrected Starbuck and her Viper
Provide private ‘head’ characters to manipulate people
February 15th, 2009 at 11:24 am
I know the tos and new bsg are to different series.Im just saying that it wouldnt be that far fetched of an idea to have a twist ending were it does turn out that this bsg is in the same universe as the old one. What better way to get fans who only like tos and fans who only like the rdm version together! Ive read silly ideas way back that bsg would end up doing a crossover ending with shows like 24 or the west wing. But a real crossover with tos would be the most possible and likeley if one took place since they already have the rights to bsg in the first place!
February 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Well..I don’t know…seeing the intelligent serpent race would be interesting, though I doubt that would happen. I’ve seen too many interviews with Edward James Olmos saying that if there were any aliens or monsters, he would quit. lol. unless he’s just lying.
February 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Than eddy should have quit at the miniseries. The “angels” who are probably also the lords of kobol seem to be some sort of aliens made of pure energy.
February 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
A few random thoughts:
The apple that Ellen offers to Boomer is usually a symbol of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. After eating it Adam and Eve are banished from Paradise before they can eat from the Tree of Life. Ellen spoke of free will and choices. In Genesis, once Adam and Eve received free will they lost immortality. Now it appears that the Cylons are in the process of learning more about the consequences of free will at the cost of immortaily (destruction of the resurrection hub).
In the preview for next week Sam is shown in a hospital bed with a monitor next to him. The monitor has a waveforms on the screen. This leads me to think that either his brain does repair itself, or Ellen fixes it.
Calvil reminds me of Lucifer, the Lightbearer of Morning Star. In Isahia 14:12-17 he is describe this way:
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [a]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”
In non-biblical writings Lucifer is sometimes described as God’s first son, who rebelled and sets out to destroy mankind. By the way, Dictionary.com defines the verb Cavil as, “raise irritating and trivial objections; find fault with unnecessarily “. Sure seems to describe Number One’s personality.
Now, I don’t believer that RDM is using the Judeo-Christian scriptures as a basis for writing Battlestar Galactica. But I do think that some analogous themes of choices of good and evil, jealousy and revenge, and finally resurrection and immortality in both.
All the best,
Tom aka Irish Hermit
February 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Lucifer? All these tos references are to much to bear!
February 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
ok guys. Cavil knew about ellen being his CREATOR but dont liken that to thinking of her as a mother. You’re adding thoughts out there that I dont really think the writers were going for….but hell who knows I could be all wrong.
February 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
If cavil is the new Lucifer wouldn’t that make Ellen the Imperious Leader? Or is that God?
February 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
I like bsg fans idea of the advanced serpent race. It would also make bsg have even more biblical connections. The serpents would represent the serpent in the garden of eden. Perhaps the colonies (or farther back enough the kobolians) sent out a exploration ship which came across the cylons who gave them knowledge of advanced robotics and ellen and the 5 reverse engineered it and created the centurions and humanoids. It would be like the serpent who convinced eve to eat the apple from the tree of knowledge in the garden. But that probably will never happen!lol.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I’m new here, so I may be treading old ground. However, I haven’t seen this mentioned in the posts from the last few weeks. With all the speculation of the Galactica as dying leader in the last few threads, I’m wondering if we are missing out on something not quite so obvious. That something (or someone) is Admiral Adama. Obviously, he is the leader of the fleet, but has anyone noticed that he hasn’t be feeling good for most of Season 4? Whenever Bill is alone in his quarters, he has been groaning, rubbing his chest/shoulder, popping pills and chasing them with booze. It makes me wonder if RDM is setting the stage for a big, sad surprise in the next couple of weeks. Here it is in a nutshell: Bill goes down with his ship sitting / reading / mourning at Laura Roslin’s bedside. Sound far fetched? Maybe, but I wonder if Roslin’s “JUMP!” visions of her death bed on a nearly deserted Galactica were possibly foreshadowing a tragic ending for some of our favorite characters.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
“RatTat Says:
February 15th, 2009 at 1:11 am
Baltar is #7
Starbuck is the last living Lords of Kabol, making her the 1 true God & the oldest living Cylon.”
RatTat: I like it. Short, sweet and to the point! I Think Daniel being Baltar is more likely than the the Daniel Greystone thing. The only other one that comes to mind is Adams dead son. Baltar makes the most sense. We are all ready to write him off as just human, dispite al the evidence to the contrary. And “Flawed” is a good way to describe him.
Ditto with Starbuck. We know she’s “different” but how? I’m really starting to buy the whole Kara as a Lord of Kobol.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
OK, I don’t buy Boomer’s forgiving Ellen; I think she is still doing Cavil/John’s bidding. Cavil and company are desperate and will do anything to retrieve the resurrection technology, including carving up Ellen’s brain. However, I think he overstated his capabilities toward being able to retrieve memories via lobotomy. He needs Ellen to show him how to recreate the technology. When she says she can’t do it without the other 4, he may not believe her, but he won’t risk that she’s telling the truth and lose any chance at it by carving her noggin like a pumpkin. I believe he hatched the escape plan (btw, the episode is called “No Escape”) so that he could birddog Ellen and the colonial fleet as it makes its way to this “colony” where the FF hid the res-tech. He ordered Boomer to take Ellen to find the fleet, wait for her to take the fleet to this “colony,” and drop breadcrumbs for Cavil/et al to follow in order to destroy the fleet and scoop up the res-tech.
I think at this point that Boomer is like Athena’s evil twin and is unredeemable. When she told Ellen “who would I love?”, this was about the same time that she tried to kill Hera. I think she still intends to kill her, and when she finds out that Tigh and Caprica are expecting a baby ‘bot she will add them to the hit list. Ultimately, I think she will manage to kill Caprica and thus terminate the pregnancy but will miss killing Hera. I suspect she will try to manipulate Tyrol when she learns Cally is dead, maybe try to manipulate Tory and/or Tyrol when she discovers how Cally really died, and wreak general havoc amidst the rebels.
I’ll also reiterate my theory that Anders will end up playing the part of ship’s Hybrid, to the Galactica or else to the basestar (if Boomer manages to kill that ship’s hybrid). At this point he’s still only MOSTLY brain-dead. There’s still a minimal amount of activity in his scan (according to nurse Ishay), just not enough to register above the vegetative state. It could be that he is in a deep comatose state, his brain trying to repair/rewire itself.
When Anders was telling what he remembered about Earth and who they were then, he didn’t say what he did then. I’m wondering if perhaps he was involved with procuring a ship for the journey… maybe a pilot that Saul knew from the military. He may have been drawn to the Opera House by his visions (maybe he saw a Head Kara, or maybe he just followed the sound of the Watchtower tune that he ended up playing for the others) and recognized Saul there. If it was the song that drew him there, maybe he was able to join Ellen’s cabal by playing the tune to the others, something that they had each heard in their own visions. And maybe the woman he played the song for was Aurora/Head Kara (this would imply that she was a “being of light,” Lord of Kobol, or whoever it was that were manipulating the FF into redeveloping res-tech and saving the Colonies).
A possible Head Kara (and the other Head-characters) leads to yet another theory, that perhaps there is a progression in technological status: humans that build cylon toasters; toasters that try to build skinjobs; skinjobs that build toasters; Beings-of-Light that warn them that building toasters is bad news (they know b/c they did it long ago and barely survived to re-engineer the human race) and then try to manipulate them in order to save humanity from itself and its creations. This would play out as:
-The BoL/LoKs re-engineering humanity on Kobol alongside the remnants of a fleet of skinjobs, hybrids, and remaining humans.
-The BoL/LoKs leave them alone for a while to develop naturally, with the unintended consequence that tribes develop and begin to war with each other, probably over religious issues… my god is better than your god, or else our gods are better than your one true god.
-The 13th tribe (persecuted skinjobs) leaves to find a new paradise.
-When the BoL/LoKs return they eventually decide to kick the rest of humanity out of the paradise of Kobol (b/c the humans didn’t want to follow the BoL/LoK’s rule of law) and warn them never to return, but sow the seeds of humanity’s salvation by giving Pythia her visions and instructing her to write her scrolls.
-Athena casts herself from the cliff on Kobol in despair as the last of the 12 tribe’s ships depart Kobol b/c they failed to teach humanity to live in peace under the BoL/Loks governance, and b/c she herself was supposed to herald the beginning of a lasting peace, one that ultimately failed. She felt that her entire existence was a lie.
-About the same time (give or take a few years) that the 12 tribes are in exodus to the colonies, the FF are given visions of the impending doom of Earth, and the opportunity to warn the 12 Colonies not to make the same mistakes as the 13th tribe regarding the centurians.
-Arriving at the 12 colonies too late, they note that the cylons worship a single god (Ellen seemed surprised by this) and decided they could manipulate the cylons into an armistice by giving them a mandate to become the best machines possible and by re-engineering them toward this end to use organic nervous systems and giving them human bodies and resurrection technology.
-Cavil/John betrays the FF b/c he was jealous of the attention they showed the other 7 models (Daniel in particular) and b/c he felt he should be the “golden child/gold toaster” of the 8, but he felt that the FF saw him as being flawed (kinda like Lore vs. Data), else why would they need to make 7 more models?
-A Daniel (prototype?) manages to escape Cavil/John (with the help of a Head character) and mates with Socrata Thrace… and a BoL is born into quasi-human flesh as Kara Thrace, destined to die and be resurrected to guide the fleet to humanity’s end (and its new beginning as Beings-of-Light).
-After the holocaust of the 12 Colonies, the BoL/LoKs start showing up as Head characters to various people in order to manipulate them back toward Earth to show them that they need to reunify as one people.
-Ultimately, the majority of the fleet will die and Hera Agathon, as the first of a new iteration of Beings-of-Light, will lead the remnants of the fleet (utilizing res-tech to give them enough time) to replenish the human genetic stock and thus re-engineer humanity on a new Kobol, in the hopes that humanity will eventually learn to live in peace and harmony with each other and with any remaining cylon-types.
-The Cycle reboots on the new Kobol, war ensues, then the exodus (exoduses? exodii?) and Hera dies of a broken heart, again.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
On the whole spirituality thing:
I think there needs to be a good explination of the Mythology in the series. One God vs many gods. Why do robots believe in a God? Etc. So there may be simple non-mystical explinations for this, but i think its a key part of the series. Here’s a wild guess:
If we follow the logic that all beings are created, and we treat our creators as gods maybe that’s the key. If the Lords of Kobol created the 12 colonies and they worship them as gods, plural. Maybe one of the Lords of Kobol decided to make the A.I that became the 13th Colony. Hence they had 1 God. Maybe this is Starbuck, reincarnated, as some have suggested. So she is the one God.
“The children of the one reborn” the one is either Ellen or Starbuck me thinks…
February 15th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Cavil/John – straight up Star Trek. That was a monologue straight out of Q’s mouth. heheheheheh.
Jump the Shark moment – Gaeta is the seventh humanoid model, revealed in the last episode. heheheheh
February 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
“vicavox (1 month ago)
Or another idea to think about…in the battlestar universe there are two major numbers. 12 is the first, with the twelve original colonies, the twelve cylons, but then there’s the number 13…the thirteenth tribe, the thirteenth colony, I’m not sure they’ll bombard us with a secret “thirteenth” Cylon, but I wouldn’t bet against that number coming back into play in some form or another.”
- taken from the youtube thread “You Will Know The Truth Unknown”
I don’t want to blow my own trumpet, but I think the revelation of a “seven” model Cylon which isn’t accounted for by any of the known Cylon models pretty much means that we’re going to get the revelation of a THIRTEENTH CYLON. Artist and a creator? Opposite to Baltar perhaps? I hope it isn’t but there’s every chance that it could be, given Chief’s acknowledgement of the “one true god” line and seemingly making a mental note of it, and he would associate that with Gaius Baltar given his frequenting of his “teachings”.
Also, Cavil’s monologue wasn’t so much Star Trek as it was a watered down version of Roy Batty’s speech in “Blade Runner”.
I don’t think Tyrol’s repairing of the ship will work, and as we all feel, Galactica will be dismantled/destroyed before the end of the series.
But the revelation of a thirteenth cylon is the one thing now we all have to think about, and I think we’re safe in saying that Baltar is an obvious target, UNLESS it’s someone we haven’t seen before who’s been boxed since the start of the series like Zak Adama, but I think that would be even cheaper than giving Baltar the “honorary” thirteenth Cylon position.
February 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I doubt starbuck is a female jesus. Thats even more unlikely than the original cylons being lizards.
February 15th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I have a list of who could be a possible 13th cylon.
Zarek.
Starbuck.
Adama
Arnold swartzinager(have no idea how to spell last name)
Obama
Bush
Jesus?
lorne green? If hes still alive.
Dirk Benedict
The guy who played tos baltar
Bunch of others not worth posting.
February 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Or better yet the centurions themselves!
February 15th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I think we can safely say what the war on Earth was about based on what we learned in this episode:
On Earth, the 13th tribe created their own cylons (the centurions found on Earth) who then rebelled. Simultaneously, Tigh, Tyrol, Tory, Anders and Ellen were working on reinventing resurrection for the 13th tribe. They succeeded by the time the holocaust happened, and they left for the colonies to warn them about what might happen if they are not careful with their creations. They backtracked the path of the 13th tribe, coming across the temple of five.
Here is my speculation:
One of the final five is Pythia. (How else could the pythian scrolls make their way to the colonies?)
The Lords of Kobol/God left additional clues for the ragtag fleet to follow. (The Tomb of Athena, the faces of the five on the algae planet).
For Starbuck, I am not quite sure. Maybe she was brought back to life by God/Lords because she had not completed her destiny yet.
“Harbinger of Death/ Herald of the Apocalypse” could simply mean that it was she who lead the fleet to the apocalypse/death that had already happened on Earth, although I hope there is a more satisfying conclusion for this.
February 15th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Im wondering about when the new caprica serise is set. If it’s set before the first cylon war. Daniel greyston can’t be Daniel because he was createt by the 5 when the first war ended.
In the promo for caprica the copy of the dead dauther is a skinjob. If set before the first war that means there are skinjobs before the 5 creates the 8 making rom for more cylons than 13.
Ellen did say they did not orkestrate the events at the temple of the five. She sugested the one true god. Some one is helping the 5 find eart and them self. I think is a danile copy that survied. Daniel is probaly not some one we know sins he has to know every thing.
I don’t think Daniel is Karas father. it’s more likely he created her to help the 5 and the humas find eart and have revenge on cavil.
February 15th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Myst3ym4n:
It could be that Daniel’s memory, by use of his network version of Second-Life, is used to create Daniel (RDM said in his podcast, “Daniel is important as well as he will be in Caprica” or something like that). I don’t think it is a skin job. I think he was talking about putting her memory into the network so that it is as if she is alive. Or, he was perfecting resurrection like the five did. Remember, they were humans first. Caprica is set before the war by the way. I doubt right after the war they would be using networks.
February 15th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
@Mario:
I will have to study info on the Caprica series coloser. Maby i get triked by the caprica promo but i got a skin job vibe from the girl.
I still think Cylon 7 Daniel is the one playing good helping the 5 find the way. And that he might have Created Kara as a tool to make it all come together.
February 15th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
In watching the show for the third time, it came to me the reference was to “…the original 13th tribe…” Is this a mind frak? Is it possible that the original 13th left for “earth” and that there was another break away group – a new 13th that will be found at the end of the series?
February 15th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
My first thought when i started watching this episode is THANK GOD .. i was so glad that Ron D. Moore has given us some explanation of what ive thought has been a very deeper story empty season and a half .. to have so many loose ends tied up (or at least addressed) in one episode is extremely gratifying i feel ..
and wasn’t that interaction between Ellen (creator) and Cavil (John! lmao ) just unbeleivable !!?? i had chills i swear ..
only 5 episodes to go
hard to believe after all these years ..
February 15th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Oh me again.
I also think Daniel could be Hera….
If theirs a code for sleep. perhaps code for what gentics to produce, which lays dormant in the cylons, which they need another person for, to fill in the gaps of gentic code or w.e and lets not forget that Hera is artistic… albeit only stickmen and 6s
… wacky idea but yeah.
February 15th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Well i am pretty sure that Starbuck is the child of Ellen and Daniel. Ellen told Cavil that he just boxed Daniel becuase he was jealous. Well, we all know he frakked her. So maybe Ellen and Daniel had Sex. Ellen got pregnant. When she gave birth to the child she sends one copy of Daniel to Earth. Well knowing that Cavil will follow his dark Path of Pyschotic behaviour. This would Explain why Starbuck is still alive. Because she is a hybrid she was ressurected in the Earth Hub, maybe drawing its last Energy reserves.
And this could explain why she is the Harbinger of dead. Maybe Cavil was so jeallous because they procreated without ressurection. So he killed the five and sends them in the Colonies, destroyed the Daniels he knows and trys to kill all Humans.
February 15th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
I don’t know if it applies to the series yet but I’m coining the phrase – “Plot Salad”
Salad is not always bad though.
February 15th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
T-SHIRT UPDATE: here’s a quick graphic I did in Illustrator for Darthrazorback’s tee idea. I gave it a vintage look but nothing’s written in stone yet. any suggestions/ideas are welcome. http://i42.tinypic.com/2lm28ft.jpg
February 15th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
ok, that didn’t work. one more time:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2lm28ft.jpg
February 15th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
anyone’s comments not coming through?
February 15th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
any reason why I can’t post links here? I tried posting a link to a graphic I had done for darthrazorback’s tee idea and my post didn’t go through. I wanted some feedback/suggestions and to see what people thought
February 15th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
So we found out that the 13th tribe left Kobol 3000 years ago and found ‘Earth’. Then they were destroyed only one thousand years later – that’s not much time to get a civilisation going but maybe it’s all cylons need – anyway I think it shows that it was not ‘our’ Earth but one of the many other Earths that have been destroyed during the cycles. And in the end when the remains of the fleet and the cylons come together they will find their own Earth to call ‘Home’. Will this turns out to be our Earth, we will have to wait and see.
February 15th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Many thanks to all of you who answered my questions, this is such a great and confusing episode. I wanted to address a few items that people noted here:
I agree that Anders sounded exactly like the hybrid when he was doing his ramblings. What that means? I have no idea, but I did notice that as well. Plus, not to digress, but Anders is totally hot!
I understand that Cavil slowly introduced the FF back into humanity, w/out the results he wanted. However, I do not think that Ellen had sex w/Daniel, and produced Starbuck. They were obviously growing embryos in tanks, but I don’t think that this would have made Saul very happy. But, was she always tramping around before, or wasn’t she? However, I reject any kind of affair w/Daniel because Ellen was slightly appalled at how Cavil forced her to have sex w/him, when she sees the models to be her children.
I was thinking Daniel is Starbuck’s father, but how did she come to be w/a mother who was abusive? Was her mother abusive because she KNEW that she was 1/2 cylon? Who gave her to her mom? or did Daniel get let into the population and have sex w/Kara’s mom? Who knows, but how Starbuck came about is still in question, but I’m on board w/that he’s Kara’s Dad.
Back to Anders: So, if they were all being introduced back into humanity, how did Anders become the Michael Jordan of their time? Did Cavil give them memories that made them who they became?
I think the best part of all of this, and why Cavil is so angry, is that his little experiment did not go as planned. He thought that Ellen would understand why he hates humanity so much, but she didn’t, and that was the point. Even when Boomer, who is still so angry about Tyrol, agreed w/Cavil and that Ellen needed to apologize, Ellen said that she had nothing to apologize for and Boomer could make up her own mind. I have to say that I love how quietly manipulative Ellen is, and how she uses the truth as both a weapon and a means of self preservation–brilliant.
In addition, I think that Hera and Caprica’s baby are part of something new that has happened between they FF, cylons and humanity. I believe that they are part of what the future holds that will break the cycle of destruction. I also believe that their roles are part of why Kara is called the “harbinger of death”. The prophecy had nothing to do w/the end of humanity, but the end of what is now, and the beginning of the future. I think Adama and Roslin will die before they reach their final destination, or just when they arrive. I think it has become almost like, they have found love and eachother, the new generation can find hope and peace in their new home. This makes sense as they are like the parents of the fleet.
But we still have some blanks that need to be filled! I can’t wait!
Athena
February 15th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
We can’t forget that #3 is still on Earth. Perhaps she will find the missing resurrection equipment? At some time that have to close out that piece of the story…
February 16th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Earth is definitely not our Earth. Its for the last mother fracking time Terra! I wont believe its our Earth until they show us visible continents like they did in crossroads. Plus bob dylan is the 13th cylon/and or cylon God!
February 16th, 2009 at 1:04 am
Okay okay
now this is really starting to piss me off
the EARTH we FOUND was
EARTH
for FRAAAAAAAAAAK sakes, RON MOORE HIMSELF said in an interveiw STRAIGHT after sometimes a great motion aired that THAT IS EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
from the interview
”That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here…” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth. ”
BAM, what more do you want!!!!
here the link to PROVE it!
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html
can we PLEASE stop this whole ”its not earth discussion!”
Snow
February 16th, 2009 at 1:08 am
okay okay
this is starting to FRAK me off
The earth we found was EARTH, the planet WE currently live on! not some shitty ass planet that someone nuked and left metal cylon heads there, it was us unfortunately.
Ron Moore said HIMSELF!!@!@!@!@ thats its not terra and in fact EARTH
”That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here…” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth. ”
so can we PLEASE STOP this whole ”its not earth” discussion FRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAK
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html
February 16th, 2009 at 1:09 am
wtf
February 16th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Seriously
This is starting to FRAAAAAAAAAAK me off
the EARTH WE FOUND
WAS
! ! ! ! E A R T H ! ! ! !
not some craphole of a planet from the old series that unfortunately got nuked by some angry metal heads
”Ron Moore said HIMSELF that THAT PLANET ISSSSSSSSSSS EARTH!!!!!! FRAAAAK
That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here…” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth. ”
See! straight from an interview with Ron just after sometimes a good motion aired
heres the link to prove it
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html
can we finally FINISH this whole ”ITS NOT EARTH!!!” discussion
February 16th, 2009 at 1:14 am
Seriously
This is starting to FRAAAAAAAAAAK me off
the EARTH WE FOUND
WAS
! ! ! ! E A R T H ! ! ! !
not some craphole of a planet from the old series that unfortunately got nuked by some angry metal heads
”Ron Moore said HIMSELF that THAT PLANET ISSSSSSSSSSS EARTH!!!!!! FRAAAAK
That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here…” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth. ”
See! straight from an interview with Ron just after sometimes a good motion aired
heres the link to prove it
(link removed coz it wont post with it 4 some reason)
can we finally FINISH this whole ”ITS NOT EARTH!!!” discussion
February 16th, 2009 at 1:19 am
The link if it helps
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html
February 16th, 2009 at 3:36 am
My first thought: this episode should have been called “Revelations” instead of Episode 412 lol.
There is so much information to digest that I couldnt fully comprehend the revelations until I watched it a second time and paused and rewinded a few times to re-listen to some parts of the dialogue.
Anyways, I’ll take this opportunity to use this message as my personal notepad to collect my pieces of the puzzle, and then I’ll attempt to put it together and make sense of it.
Here is what I consider the biggest revelations of this episode:
1) Tory said that the HUMANS on Kobol created the 13th Tribe.
2) The 13th Tribe had “organic memory transfer” technology which they used to procreate before they gained the ability to procreate by reproducing naturally (with babies). Organic memory transfer seems to be a sort of resurrection technology that was lost to them. The Five were scientists which re-discovered resurrection technology, but I’m not sure it was the original technology. I’d think it is.
3) The Five died during the nuke attack and resurrected into a ship THEY PLACED in orbit. Question: Did the rest of the 13th Tribe resurrect also or just those five?
4) Their ship had no jump technology (instant travel) but rather sub-light relativistic travel technology. This means BSG scientific advisor Kevin Grazier convinced BSG folk to believe in Einstein’s theory of special relativity which states that the closer you travel to the speed of light the more time dilates (slows down) for the point of reference of the ship compared to a fixed point of reference (the Colonies). That means 2000 years for the 12 Colonies was only maybe 5 years for the Five.
5) The Five helped the Centurions evolve into organic beings by creating the EIGHT models if they agreed to stop the war.
6) The Centurions settled on “Colony” of their own where the Five labored to create the Eight skinjobs. Thus there exists a Centurion/Cylon homeworld still out there somewhere to which Cavil refers.
7) The Skinjobs cant procreate on their own. The Five can procreate with the Skinjobs. Humans can procreate with the Skinjobs.
And finally one of the biggest revelations yet:
There are actually EIGHT models which added to the Final Five makes 13 total Cylon models. The magic model number is Cylon Number Seven which goes by the name of Daniel. This just happens to be the same name as Daniel Graystone from Caprica, who is the creator of the Cylons.
For those who think they are the same Daniel, it’s possible. But we need to remember Daniel Graystone lived (and died) long before the Centurion-Human first Cylon War. The Eight models (and thus model number Seven) were created AFTER the war. So really depends if it’s possible that the Cylon race evolved and rebelled and started the war within the lifetime of Daniel Graystone.
What we need to consider here is the Old Hybrid from Razor. From what we had been told, he was part of the experimentation of the Centurions to become skinjobs. But he does say to Kendra that his children think he is their God. If you have seen the sneak peak of Caprica, you get to see that Zoe is the first person to consider the notion of a One True God in a society that firmly believed in polytheism. This would then translated into the birth of monotheism and the transfer of this belief system by Daniel Graystone to the Cylons.
Anyways, right now my main question is what is the 13th Tribe. We’ve been told they are cylons, and that they first used resurrection of some sort that they called organic memory transfer so I’m thinking some sort of cloning. They then were able to procreate naturally (babies) and lost resurrection. Question is why was the 13th Tribe cylon, how did they get created and why.
I also wonder just how different the Eight are from the Five. The Five could not procreate naturally either at first, and when the Eight had resurrection technology that made them indistinguishable. Both artificial beings who could not procreate naturally and relied on artificial resurrection technology.
As for Starbuck, again, there is the possibility she is Daniel, and thus a Cylon, considering her “rebirth” or “resurrection”. It’d explain that since until now only Cylons have been able to come back from death.
Of course the other explanation is that she is some divine being. Like a highly spiritually advanced angelic being.
What caught my attention is that Anders says “a miracle is about to happen, a gift from the Angels”.
So that confirms further that Angels exist in RDM’s BSG, and that Starbuck is most likely one of them.
I am very glad to finally see an episode with so many revelations. We are much closer to understanding this show. But not quite there yet.
I think to we need to understand Kobol to understand the cycle. And I always said we need to understand Baltar and his relationship with Six and I said they have always been the key to the whole story. And the fact that Baltar has been almost a supporting actor all these episodes in S4 makes me think they are going to unleash Baltar’s final story arc on us in these last few episodes.
I think we have seen the last of Baltar’s orgies. It was the last and final stimulus to complete Baltar’s transformation into a truly self-less and compassionate being.
As for Galactica…we see the beginnings of the next cycle. Galactica will most likely be the first “hybrid” organic-inorganic ship, the first “base star” if you will. As BSG has progressed, one main theme has persisted. The boundaries between machine and human have been blurred and smudged into near non-existence. Galactica being transformed into a hybrid semi-organic entity is yet another big step into merging the cylon and human race together.
I guess that’s all I have for now. Next ep’s teaser suggests a possible separation between the Cylons and Humans. That would indeed be the first act to go against the general theme of uniting the two races.
We will just have to wait and see.
5 out of 5 Top Gun Mugs from me for Episode 417.
Adalla
February 16th, 2009 at 4:03 am
There is one question that I haven’t seen anyone address. I apologize if someone has and there is already an answer to it.
Who or what activated the four cylons in the fleet at the end of season 3? I always thought they were being activated by Cavil and company in order to attack the colonies from within, but as of “No Exit” this idea appears to no longer hold true. Did Ellen figure out a way to activate them during the months she spent in Cavil’s basestar? Or was there some other force responsible for their activation/recognition that they are cylons?
February 16th, 2009 at 4:31 am
There’s gotta be something more to PC’s role than what we saw…at the end of the conversation PC seemed to be impressed with the clarity of the brain scan; maybe the brain scan is another ‘roadmap’ to their new home?
February 16th, 2009 at 5:20 am
buckarez said:
“Who or what activated the four cylons in the fleet at the end of season 3? I always thought they were being activated by Cavil and company in order to attack the colonies from within, but as of “No Exit” this idea appears to no longer hold true. Did Ellen figure out a way to activate them during the months she spent in Cavil’s basestar? Or was there some other force responsible for their activation/recognition that they are cylons?”
We now know that Ellen was resurrected before the battle at the nebula, and can infer that she was probably on one of the basestars the fleet encountered there. It may be the proximity of all the final five, with one knowing she is one of the F5’s, that triggered the activation of the other four. The cylons were waiting at the nebula for the fleet, so the closer they got the more trippy things got for them with the Watchtower music and all.
The other unaccounted factor from the nebula is the reemergence of Starbuck at the beginning of the battle. If the “Angels” placed her there at that particular place and time then they could have activated the 4 at that point. It may have just been a matter of getting the final five close together at the same time while having Aurora/Starbuck and her shiny new Viper/Earth-beacon present as well in order to trip the F5’s programming and tell them they’re cylons.
February 16th, 2009 at 5:56 am
@librlman
I think Danile is mabe responsible for the activation. He is an artist and most of the help the five and the human have goten is in the form of music(the activation) and drawings.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:33 am
I know that this has been talked about endlessly before, as in the last supper photo, but has it occured to anyone that Ellen is not the last cylon in the last supper picture and that Daniel is? When it was revaled that Ellen was the last cylon they never posted a last supper photo with her in it where there should have been the final person. RDM and all of them were not lying she was the last FF cylon to be revealed but now that we know there is one more of the eight they ceated is it possible that the seat goes to Daniel? I do not read to much of the stuff the writers talk about so if I am totally wrong let me know. Incidentally, this is my first posting but I have enjoyed everyones comments and Matt and Nats analysis for a while. Have a nice week everyone.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:45 am
I’m just waiting to see what’s going to happen to good ol’ Baltar.
Him having such a significant role in the VERY beginning of the show (destruction of humanity) will definitely repeat here in the end with him possibly saving humanity.
Keep The Statue
February 16th, 2009 at 10:12 am
bsgfan
this is definitely earth. we are looking at earth in our time. but this is not our point time. the way it is looking is that humans today are the second evolution of man. the time of the colonies are before the continents shifted to where they are now. this is an old tale, dare i say it and please forgive me ( A LONG LONG TIME ANG IN A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY). just go back to the original series opining monolog. you know ( THERE ARE THOSE WHO BELIVE THAT LIFE HERE BEGAN OUT THERE) and so forth.
also as i said before. organic memory transfer was not for cylons but for the humans. human immortality. kobol suffered from ecological disasters due to over population and social unrest. they had to leave their home world. organic cylons were a way to perfect this tech without using humans as lab rats. they just did too good of a job. organics were probably looked at as abominations and with the exodus the 13th tribe was made up of centurions, organics and centurions. all 3 were on earth with humans and organics being the cool kids and the centurions being
the slaves just like on kobol. there are still humans on earth hence the second evolution of man. they have forgotten their origins and are now primitives. ground zero is the centurions. they can’t download and have always been on the outside looking in. contempt arose because the centurions made after the exodus were sentient. there was a 3 tear system on earth, human, organics, and centurions. centurions rebelled. because organics and centurions were machines the organics were able to see the warning signs through projecting. maybe that is how the centurions communicate and some humans could pick up on this. i still think that the 5 started out as human and came across resurrection tech by accident. the 13th tribe was also monotheistic and that would also explain their going in the opposite direction than the 12 tribes.
all this started again because the colonials and the 13th are of the same stock. it was bound to happen again. the 3 races have always been separate but living together. the cycle will always continue if they all stay together. organics and humans could maybe work things out but not with the centurions. they will always be ground zero. even if they left the other 2 races, the we will always create A.I. it’s in our nature. no matter how “evolved” we become, we seem to always find someone or something to lord over to make us feel better about ourselves. no matter our good intentions, someone will always twist it into something bad.
this whole tale goes back to science vrs. religion.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:18 am
sorry, i meant that the 13th tribe was made up of centurions humans and organics. i should have proofed my comment.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:20 am
How many cylons does it need to fix a basestar?
None it’s self healing…
February 16th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Hello colonials!! Long time – first timer here. Great episode with alot of information. I wonder how much of it is intentional mis-direction. The storyline is so rich, it is probably impossible to really forecast what will happen or guess who is who or what. Ron Moore & the writers are masterminds creating the unexpected that keep us comng back for more. heck, I am beginning to thank that all of them are skin jobs and the 12/13 are the “Lords of Kobel” because of their ability to resurect. Great podcast and I hope you stay on for Caprica.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
One comment on Earth and if it’s OUR Earth or not. Also about the F5 and if they come from OUR earth and OUR timeline?
As far as I know we only have on think in BSG that ties the show to our Earth and our society. Can you think of it?
A friend of mine got very upset at the decision to use an actual rock song in the show as opposed to the traditional instrumental stuff they normall use (and use very well). “All along the watch tower” is the only thing i can think of that ties this story with anything on OUR earth. If intentional it means:
The F5 lived on our Earth, after that song was recorded. This would indicate the earth that they lived on and killed on was the same planet we all live on now. Meaning we are the 13th Colony, and we will eventually create centurions and be destroyed in a nuclear holocaust.
You could play it all off as not a big deal, and that song was just a cool add in with no meaning. But it was a huge plot device and a huge change in choice of music at that time. Now we find out that the F5 (who are the only one who heard it) are from earth. Its not a big stretch that it is OUR EARTH and they all actually know the song because they’ve all heard it on earth.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Can I borrow someone’s notes from Friday, Wow- way to much info in one show. Watched it 3 times now!
Baltar is the #7, follow the thought
For months Ive been thinking that we were missing a 7 number model, and now my theory is now complete. SO, 777 is the number of God in the book of Revelations, John (the writer of Revelations, btw) would seem to have been playing creator with his creator, the fabulous final five (love that!). The FFF each saw head characters that said the cylon world is going to end on earth, 2000+ years ago. Daniel, the new final cylon (we think, theres’s still five episodes left) could not only be the orchestrator this round of the circle, but he could also be Ellen’s final backup plan to stop the circle from happening again.
The biggest missed clue is the projections, no human has been having them, including starbuck; But also, somone had to leave that note on Adamas desk saying there were only 12 models. Baltar used his cylon detector and let Boomer go? Head Six and Head Baltar have been conspicuously on vacation, hmmm? Baltar has been playing the preacher of, and the son of the One True God, during which he coupled with Tori, another FF. D’Anna apologized when she saw the FFF, but she was never seen with any of them.
My jury is still out on Starbuck.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
It was great seeing Tyrol back as Chief of the Boat. I think he was lost without that role. Taking care of the ship was what he lived for. In very many ways, he is like Montogmery Scott.
“Galactica” is one of the dying leaders. Roslin’s cancer is accelerating. Adama’s drinking & heart will soon kill him. And the Gray Lady has rotten bones. It wouldn’t surprise me to see the three of them die in the last episode. (Will it be a 1 hour or 2 hour episode series finally? Anyone know?)
Did you notice how Tigh and Adama are trading places? Tigh is cleaning up his act and is finally becomming the leader he was always capible of becomming. That became clear when they were in the waiting room and he said that they had to accept their responsibility in creating the eight models. Adama is becomming an alcoholic and his health is falling apart.
Cavil will be coming soon. Not in the next episode but one one after. The biological resin that the Chief is applying to the frame will only be partially cured when they go into combat. It will be the baseship that will provide protection to the fleet, using Galactica’s aircraft.
Kara, as others have said before, is one of the lords of Kobal. The angel of death, perhaps? Could Baltar be one of the corrupted Daniels?
February 16th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Charles says “While after last weeks episode I was thinking that Galactica would fall apart in the final episode, now I am thinking it is a metaphor for the entire fleet in that it can only be held together by the cylons.”
Excellent point. Also, to be blunt, Cavil physically screwing Ellen on New Cap is a metaphor for him screwing with her by sending her into a human body again with only limited memories.
taeryn122 says “perhaps the organic infusion into galactica will actually save more than just the crew of galactica.”
It may now be recognized by raiders etc. as cylon. The fleet ships however…
“At the same time though I believe it will eventually be the Centurions who put a stop to Cavil’s evil.”
I really like that idea and I think it makes sense on many levels.
librlman Says: “I don’t buy Boomer’s forgiving Ellen; I think she is still doing Cavil/John’s bidding.”
HARD TO ACCEPT this as possible, but I think you could be right. It seems a little easy, her leaving with Ellen. SHe is a wild card FOR SURE.
I also like your observation about this fitting well with the title of this episode!!
Starbuck being Daniel kinda seems a neat idea…at first. (I much prefer him to be her father, and I think it’s a much better fit.) I don’t like it AT ALL, however. If Starbuck is somehow a man whose DNA has been tainted and screwed with and is now in a woman’s body, then she really is a man. Which means that a woman can’t be a tough, determined, courageous, promiscuous, unfaithful, hard-ass tremendously gifted fighter pilot. Which is absurd. And that would SUCK and I for one don’t think RDM would do that. He didn’t make Starbuck Kara Thrace only to have her be some cylon named Daniel, in my opinion. No way.
As far as the ending goes,
I predict Cavil will come back and under his threat of finishing off the humans and rebel cylons, Ellen and the other four will agree to go with him so that she can help him build himself into the best machine the universe has ever seen. But in the end, he is going down…Ellen will not give him additional powers so that he can come back as a threat again. Centurians will agree….
However, this scenario requires neither Starbuck or Baltar become anything.
So I am not sure how they will fit. I will say this much: I think Starbuck will be a Being of Light or some other such thing, rather than a hybrid. Hera is special, and I think that we’ve seen clearly through Nicky’s parentage change that RDM wants her to be the only hybrid.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
If its our earth than why did ellen say that there was an original 13th tribe? Did the cylons on kobol leave in search of our earth but never found it so they created there own colony and just called it earth?If it is our earth what year is it? Its still possible that it could be millions of years in the past.There were numerous extinctions during when humans existed such as the volcano that erupted in yellowstone and smaller meteroids besides the one that killed the dinosaurs. One of those events could have really been caused by a nuclear war which has the same effects as a natural disater like meterors or super volcanos. And it doesnt take that long for modern buildings to decay so that could be why we havnt found any trace of that civilization.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
DarthPaul Says:
” ‘All along the watch tower’ is the only thing i can think of that ties this story with anything on OUR earth. If intentional it means:”
There are plenty of other things that tie this story with Earth of the past 3000 years: the names of people (Appollo, Hera, and other names from Greek mythology), places (Mars City from the upcoming Caprica pilot), and things (ships named Inchon Valley, taken from Korean geography, and ____-Maru with ‘Maru’ being the Japanese word for ’ship’) that are given are from our Earth’s history, not to mention the Colonial Marine motto (the Latin phrase “semper fi”) being the same as that of the US Marines. If you look hard enough, you find several instances more instances that arguable point to the BSG Earth being from our own Earth’s future.
You can also make the argument that these instances of historical bleed are not necessarily from the past of Colonial humans, but are of the past of certain Beings-of-Light/Lords-of-Kobol passed down to their Colonial heirs/descendants. If you take the view that “all this has happened before and will happen again” literally, you could even argue that these represent not just our Earth’s past and the BSG past, but also the future of a cyclic BSG universe.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
But rdm said the song came from the same ethereal source that dylan got the idea for the song.Not that it was actualy dylan himself who wrote it in the current time of the bsg universe. And latin is a root language so its no suprise that if its in the past they would use it.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
First things first. “I told you so!” I had predicted a long time ago that Cavil knew who the final 5 were and he was trying to keep it quiet because he had done something wrong. This has vindicated me. (Thank the Gods.) Of all my wild crazy theories this is the first to be verified by the show. Now if they will only let go the theory of mine for the beings of light I will be on cloud 9.
I did like the war Adama was going in this one. He is willing to allow the Chief be the Chief again, Tigh is still his XO but he didn’t want any Cylons doing the work to the Galactica and he didn’t want any Cylon tech to be used to fix her. It took him in his quarters drunk and stoned to come to the fact that without the Cylon tech his beloved Galactica would die a horrible death. That whole part of the story line shows just how torn apart he is with the whole Cylon friend’s thing.
As for Lee being the actual President and Laura just being a figure head, I guess we all saw that coming but I did like his idea of a representive from each ship in the fleet being a part of the new government. This will make it a lot simpler for the Baseship to get on the quorum as they are now a part of the fleet. (And with Galactica being in such bad shape the most powerful.)
This also brings forward a new thought that just hit me as writing this. Early on when we first saw the rebel baseship it was told that it will heal itself. Why I ask is it still missing some of its points? Just a passing muse.
Now the whole Ellen thing and the revelation there was another Cylon model out there that Cavil killed off. That was a total trip. I knew he had done some bad things but that was one hell of a hit in the head. I was also impressed that he is in fact upset with the 5 for making him too human. I never would have thought he would be bitter like that. It does make sense the way he says it too. I mean just think of what they are lacking that the Centurions have? The Centurions are far more powerful and able to experience things. It is simply amazing to think of.
Another revelation from Ellen was the fact they knew the end was coming and had a ship in orbit with the resurrection tech on it and it was a sub light ship with no FTL capabilities on board. I was simply amazed to listen to her talk about the trip back to Kobol and then Earth but arriving too late to do anything to help. Well I guess that was both her and Anders talking that brought the whole picture together. It was an interesting way of telling the story of the Final 5 by mixing what Anders and Ellen were saying in there own roles.
As for Daniel, that one leaves all kinds of possibilities. One mentioned before is that Starbuck is Daniel reborn. I can see that and great thinking Adalla. Another thought I had was that Baltar could be Daniel reborn. I think either one would make for an interesting plot twist and I’m leaning towards Baltar. My reason is it will make him like the second coming of Christ in a way and it will leave it open for Starbuck to be an Angel come to help lead the way.
Now my final thought. The Centurions. Cavil had mentioned how dangerous it was to remove the inhibitor. Between that and the revelations we had this week it leads me to believe the final 5 had introduced the inhibiter when they came along and stopped the first Cylon war. Cavil knew this and the others had forgotten. He is now worried that this will cause the Centurions to rebel against the skin jobs. With that in mind who is to say that some of the Centurions on Cavil’s Basestar haven’t been altered. I did notice how the Centurion reacted when Ellen was so polite to him when she was resurrected. It was like he was nervous yet surprised to be treated so kindly. I think there is more story to be told with them. The possibilities are endless with where we could go from here. I have no idea how they are going to finish this with so few shows left.
Adalla another theory you had about the Galactica becoming a hybrid ship of her own is also something I hadn’t thought of. I can just imagine this one. She has been a big player in the whole show and how interesting it would be for her to actually come to life. Chief did bring up a lot of good stuff with the way she has been beaten to death since the war started and that she was 50 years old when the war started. I also got a kick out of how he mentioned shortcuts to her building. I find that funny since that happens with all government contracts today in our world. Kind of makes things hit home.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
In the preview for next week’s episode, we see Baltar’s groupies arming themselves, Caprica walking thru the civilians’ tent-city portion of Galactica, Baltar looking distressed at something or someone, and it appears that Ellen will be the tie-breaker in a cylon vote to leave the human fleet.
I was thinking that if Ellen reveals that Baltar is a copy of Daniel (maybe also memory-wiped by Cavil and given a front-row seat to a holocaust), then she will out him and insist he gets to cast a vote as well. Caprica would likely go to him to convince him to cast a vote to leave (thus sneaking thru the civvy’s quarters to track him down). If Baltar’s groupies get wind of it they may want to ensure he doesn’t go with the other cylons (’cause “keeping the statue” may not satisfy them), grabbing guns if need be and making Baltar listen. They may even take Caprica hostage.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Every thory/speculaton are so interesting. However I wonder why no one mentionned this one:
Anders said just before his seizure… “Wow, you are all glowing!” Could that be that he saw the “Light ship people” as they really are?
February 16th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Not to fan the flames of the never ending “which earth is it” convo that seems to have no end. I thought there was a good chance that the earth in BSG is like a paralelle universe version of earth. Where it is our earth just a bizarro universe version of it. You know like Frak/Fuck, Dradis/Radar, Nuggets/Maggots, wearing Tank Tops backwards. You know… everything is the same just slightly different. So when we look at thier earth from space it’s the same continental masses and shapes and giant powerful cities all over the world but instead of it being New York it’s got some Greek mythological name but it’s still essentially the same city. Does that make sense? Becasue it can’t really be our real life version of Earth because we don’t have centient machines out there. Unless that’s the secret all these secret societies are protecting LOL. Unless of course you go with my Egyptian theory. LOL Aaannnyways LOL
February 16th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
So what your saying is tos takes place in our universe and the rdm takes place in a mirror universe? Bring on bsgs own mirror/mirror episode! Jump drive malfunction anyone?
February 16th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Tyrol was established as the “chief of the deck” early on. It seemed duties included prepping vipers and raptors for flight, maintenance on the small craft, and management of the other deck folk. It was strongly implied in the Blackbird episode (and later in “Pegasus”) that he does not have advanced engineering training. And now he’s tasked with fixing Galactica? Although I’m glad we were spared the introduction of an engineer character, it does strain credulity a bit that Tyrol is up for that task. I’m sure engineers have been killed along the way, but all of ‘em?
February 16th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
For Alain Maltais:
I think you’re on the money with something. I have said for a while now, based on Ron Moore’s official statements, that the Beings of Light from the original series will not make appearances in his show. But I do think we’re seeing the next best thing. We had the Final Five in the Temple on the Algae Planet, where they glowed, and we have the Head Characters, plus there’s always the Lords the Kobol connection. Now, there’s Anders and his glowing friends. In essence, we HAVE the Beings of Light already, but they won’t be like the ones from the original series.
I’ll throw this one out there. I’m thinking this whole “number 7″ issue is not going to be important at all. When Ellen returns, which is around the time of the Algae Planey, since D’Anna’s boxing is mentioned, Ellen mentions that boxing isn’t permanent, “not like number 7.” I don’t think we’ll see any “Daniels” any time soon. It was the Five’s original plan to make 8 models, they did, and they mimicked the 13 Tribes by doing so. But someone sabotaged them.
Here’s what I’m beginning to see.
Cavil is Envy. He wants to be more than he is. He feels himself inadequate, seeking perfection, always hating his creator for creating him. Maybe, it’s not Envy. Maybe Hatred, or something. I don’t know. I’m picking up a strong Paradise Lost connection here.
“Did I request Thee, Maker, from my clay to mold me man? Did I solicit Thee from darkness to promote me?”
Well, we know the Sixes are rather sexual in nature. Maybe that’s Lust. Do you see what I’m getting at? Is it possible the Seven are representations of the Seven Deadly Sins, in one form or another? This is something I literally just came up with. I haven’t worked it out yet, but I’m beginning to see that.
Or maybe not. Maybe it’s this: Cavil (or “John,” whatever you please) wanted to be more than he was from the beginning, and felt the creators had done terribly to create him. He “lifted up because of his pride. . .” and “said ‘I will be like the Most High. . .’” Hhhmmmmm. The Biblical allusions continue. Maybe Cavil is a type of Lucifer, sabotaging the work of his Creator.
Well, one things for sure: this episode answered a lot of questions. And asked some more in the process. I was satisfied, yet still hungry at its ending. So now we know that the Five can indeed resurrect in a standard resurrection unit (I am of course assuming that was a standard unit – who knows?). Still no answer about where the body came from, or where they keep the Fives’s stockpiles.
But I’m not putting any speculation on the Daniels right now. I think it’s an attempt to make Cavil much badder than he is and little more. They’re gone for good. Maybe one survived. Who knows? But the line is still gone. The Significant Seven are still the Seven. They were just originally eight. I’ve been wrong before. Maybe I am again. But I’m not putting any money on seeing a Daniel any time soon.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Baltar and Starbuck can’t be Daniel. They have bouth met Cavil. And so much Cavil hates daniel he woluden’t lett that one pass.
Anders seing starbuck as glowing sugest she is a cylon, but more likely because Daniel is the father or he made her.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Do you think the original il lucifer series will appear in Caprica? They would bascically be just walking super computers. Perhaps used for librarys and schools. Lucifer was freaky looking in the old show.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Jim:
I knew I had read somewhere that Cavil was hiding the FF, and if it was your post, (which I have reason to believe it was,) I declare yours the best call I’ve ever read. To see something almost in front of us yet so incredibly obscured is great. The gods indeed smiled upon you.
And to address the, “All Along the Watchtower,” RDM has stated that he wants you to think of it as if someone (be it Colonial, Kobol-ian or otherwise,) had simply sat down and wrote the song. Not Bob Dylan, at least in this cycle
I’m sorry, but I’m not keen on the LoK or BoL to just show up and make everything better. What I think the LoK and Bol actually are are beings from cycles millenia ago, whose identity has been transformed over the ages into god-like individuals.
For example, let’s say that Hera sits down one day when she’s older, (for the sake of argument, much older,) and since she is the last surviving member of the original surivors, (I’m assuming humanity survives,) she decides to write down what she remembers. It’s fuzzy, as she was only threeish during these events. She transcribes the deeds of Apollo, Starbuck, Athena etc. Thousands of years later, the cycle repeats, but somehow her accounts survive. Survivors of the new cycle read her writings, and assume that Apollo, Starbuck, Athena etc. are godly beings. It’s all time.
It is very plausible that our Earth is the Earth where humanity evolved, and BSG happens in our distant future. We move to Kobol. From there, we invent Cylons, war, yadda, yadda, yadda, and the Cylons come back to Earth. From there, they (the Cylons on Earth) flourish until the time of the FF. Certainly plausible.
In fact, if that’s where I could put my money, I would. But, if there is one thing that we can safely predict about the BSG story, it’s that the writers are the masters of the curveball. It’s almost impossible predict. But, oh, so much fun to speculate about.
February 16th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Theres also the time travel theroy. It is indeed our earth in the future but somehow later they will travel back in time and be the forefathers of the egyptians, greeks, mayans, toltects, etc.
February 16th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
hence the cycle of time and all of this has happened before and will happen again
February 16th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
gohm:
I hate to double post, but I think I can answer your question. Tyrol was indeed Chief of the Deck when the war started. Sure, he wasn’t the ship’s Chief Engineer, but for the sake of promotion it’s not so much of a stretch to think that he had studied the ship’s schematics. After all, he has shown his love for mechanics before.
And BSG fan, I’m sorry, but there is NO tie between the original series BSG and this one. This one is even called re-imagined, meaning that they took the original idea of the original, then made their own story. (See the book I Robot compared to the movie I Robot.)
And – This. Is. Earth. RDM has said it. This is our Earth. It’s nuked, it’s lifeless, (except for Dianna,) but that doesn’t stop it from being interesting. There still may very well be some resurrection technology on it, or some other delicious tidbit of BSG plot.
February 16th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
You still shouldn’t rule time travel out! The f5 basically time traveled into the future because of relativity. They could still travel back in time to!
February 16th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
One thing I keep thinking about is this:
Kara Thrace. In a new Ship and is here and doesn’t know how. She does however remember where Earth is. How to get there (eventually), and she is hot but I digress.
Remember what she told the admiral?
“I saw Earth. The shape of it, the smell of it. The feel of it on my skin in my pores. And I swear to you, it was like I’d been there before. Like I never left. ”
So we jump forward to where we are now. We have 3 Kara Thraces (to be technical) to discern.
1) She exploded into a billion space dust pieces
2) She is in a crashed Viper with her dogs tags etc
3) The live Kara that is in the fleet at this moment.
So that could lead into a few areas.
a) #1 happened, and #3 found #2 from a completely different cycle of the BSG universe that did in fact make it to Earth whole but crash landed, perhaps shot down?
b) #1 happened, but instead of actually dying it was a weird form of molecular transportation where she re-materialized near Earth but she couldn’t quite handle everything that just happened (or perhaps it threw her into the planets atmosphere too soon?) and ended up crashing, or again shot down?
Now the counter to both of these is: How does #3 know what #1 knew all the way up to the point of death? Unless it was a type of download like a cylon. However they normally can recall their death unless using Cavil’s form of trickery it was erased from her memory so she wouldn’t recall it?
I’ve been a long time believer for a while now that the piano player is Kara’s father and that this gentleman was going to be very crucial and important.
Kara and the pino player:
http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/index.php?pageid=280
So with this new revelation it is possible that this Daniel is the piano player. Lets say this Daniel (Cylon model 7) is Kara’s father. How did he get there? I think because of what ended up happening and Cavil/John contaminating Daniel’s DNA line and preventing him from having mass versions of himself; Ellen (+ more of the FF or not) ended up saving the one Daniel that was there. Think of it. If he contaminated his entire line, there had to be at least one (or a few) living at first. They found out about him contaminating the line after they resurrected and ended up… not. So its probable to believe in terms of the way one would do tests, you wouldn’t just kill them all and have them all resurrect at one time. So in this manner perhaps just one was saved. This Daniel whom ended up being Kara’s father.
So this would in turn make Kara the first human cylon hybrid (for this cycle). That being the case, can Hybrids of this sort resurrect? If so did she?
Also again we have the entire “I’ve been there before, its like I never left”. Perhaps she was. What if she was in fact there before, but it wasn’t her. It was her father Daniel and the ‘organic memory transfer’ tech they talked about is where her memories come from? What if they aren’t hers but her father’s and this eventual Piano player we meet is nothing more than a ‘head character’ to which it explains more of the story to her as well as us, the audience.
Just something that’s been rattling around in my head for the past few weeks and with this episode really has me thinking this is going to tie together into a huge twist (or hoping at least).
Thanks for reading the ramblings
Paul3
February 16th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
I think Daniel was the hybrid on the basestar in “Razor”.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Holy frack! I was just at the you will know the truth site. The one wear they play the audio that says there communicating with colonial one. I could have swore I heard nasa radio chatter! Particularly from one of the apollo missions! And on an earlier one I heard church bells!
February 16th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Just throwing something else out since I haven’t heard it mentioned yet…what if Daniel turns out to be Zack Adama? I’m sure that originally Cavil might have thought it a good idea to ‘implant’ #7 right into the Adama bloodlines but then shortly thereafter, Cavil might have had his falling out with Ellen and ‘arranged’ Zack’s accidental death?
February 16th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Who destroyed Earth?
I really think the destruction of Earth was a Centurion vs. Skin Job conflict. I said in an earlier post that Cavil freaked out at Natalie taking out the higher thought inhibitors because he knew what had happened before. He knew that Centurion independence was the road to ruin for the entire Cylon race. This episode certainly showed he knew more than he told the other 7 models.
The fact that there were many more Cylon skeletons that Centurion remains, indicates a Centurion attack from space. A few Centurions might have been sacrificed on the ground (not all of them could abandon Earth without creating suspicion of an impending attack) and a few caught in a planetary defense system when everything went down. If all Cylons were attacked by humans you’d expect closer to equal numbers of Centurion and humanoid Cylon skeletons planetside.
On another note: Cavil has always skeeved me out. But he knew who Ellen really was? Eeww! The swirl? Ack ack ack. GO AWAY GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
February 16th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Paul3, I like your theory. I could make a lot of sense…
But somehow, I still cling to my idea until we get further proof. I posted this in the previous blogcast but now I can post it in the original.
Mind you, I haven’t re-watched the episode so I could be wrong on many levels. lol
I believe that Daniel is Starbuck. During the episode, Anders blurts out that the seventh is called Daniel. Starbuck chases him as he’s being wheeled away, and she asks him if he’s sure of the name. I’m pretty sure he described Daniel as a “she” then. Now it could have been him being unable to communicate things properly. On the Basestar, Ellen mentions Daniel’s a “he”. Then we get Daniel’s story about a genetic frak up, thanks to Cavil/John. A genetic frak up could mean that the genes had a switch somewhere and became female. Erase all the necessary memories, and there’s nothing saying that “Daniel” has not become female.
Add into this Kara’s “destiny” and how her mother was telling her how special she was…. can you really go wrong?
Perhaps she WAS resurrected after her viper exploded, and the bits and pieces left crashed on Earth. What do you have left then? Well, Starbuck’s memories come from her past which was locked far away, just like Ellen, Anders, etc…. Some of it was unlocked, which is why she was able to say that she saw Earth, felt the grass, the wind, etc…
What about Leoben then? Perhaps Daniel created Leoben and like Ellen, Daniel loved his children as well. It’s a little sick when you think about the type of relationship Kara and Leoben had, but then again, Ellen also slept with the sole image of her father. Leoben’s apparition in her dreams could have been an echo of the past – this one was obviously not sexually attracted to her and only cared for her well being and helping her cross over. Perhaps it’s the “real” Leoben, the one she took the image from to create the cylon, who visited her in her last moments. It may also explain why Leoben was suddenly afraid of her back on Earth.
Well, just throwing in a theory. Feel free to annihilate it or add to it. lol
Luv,
Maria
February 16th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
paul3
daniel was one of the 8 not the ff. ellen created him. evidently he was just a good guy. i still think there is resurrection tech still on earth.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
I just don’t see Daniel making an appearance. He will be revealed in Caprica and maybe the movie coming later this year, but I think he is dead and gone for good. It is always possible that he was Starbuck’s father and that she is a hybrid, and that is why she was resurrected by whatever technology is still on Earth (or near it).
February 16th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
I know who the cylon god is! SKynet! Humans built centurions/(”terminators”) Ellen and the f5 were the originial designers of it. Skynet in the future creates skinjob clones of them sends them back in time and makes them believe there human. The metal terminators evolve into skinjobs. One of them is also sent back in time, becomes governor of California and gives the idea to the F5 who are all scientists and then build skynet.So skynet basically built itself. And John/cavil Conner turns back on his destiny of being the savior of humanity and instead becomes it destroyer. I know that doesnt make one drop of sense but neither do alot of other posts. The only way that could happen is if rdm gets the rights to terminator. Which wouldn’t actually be that hard to do.
Mind Frak!
February 16th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Sorry for a second post. But keep this in mind as here are som obvious connections and reasons to Earth
13 colonies
There were originally 13 American Colonies/states
13 tribes of kobol
13 tribes of Israel
12 Cylon models.
There were 12 apostles of Jesus
All the 12 colonies are names of the 12 signs of the Zodiac.(obviously)
The confederate flag had 13 stars.
The American flag has 13 stripes for the colonies.
This is probably not a connection but in the Friday the 13th movies the killer is named Jason. Jason was the leader of the Argonauts in greek mythology.
Im not sure if any of these are possible clues or connections but they may play an important part of the story.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
meant to say for earth being our earth
February 16th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Does the FTL drive require it to be tuned to teh shape of the ship? For example, could you pull the FTL from a Raptor and drop it in a Viper?
To run with what Centurian005 was suggesting…
Cavil appears and attacks the fleet. While the baseship with Galactica’s forces defend, the rest of the fleet jumps. Galactica buckles during the jump from some of the buldheads giving way and warps the wormhole she flies through, thus introducing a “tau” or time factor intot he jump. That could be the key to this happening over and over. It becomes a causality loop.
I really hate having a computer that is dead because of a “Pepsi Syndrom” incident!
February 16th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
As soon as Ellen offered Boomer the apple, I knew that Boomer would betray Cavil. Symbolic fruit is symbolic.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Can’t wait for the Centurions to start talking (BY YOUR COMMAND) since they were dumbed down. I think Galactica is Cylon tech and has not been juiced up for a long time since the end of the Human Cylon War and the Hub was blown. I Love the new intro. The Legacy Cylons, silver and gold, warmed my bones. And PC guy as a Brain Surgeon was a classic ‘Operating System’ nod. I have been sitting at the edge of my seat with anticipation every week after the long dry spell. I am certainly going to miss BSG but have loved the ride (again)!
Cylon Cari
February 16th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
@bandxdwayne “daniel was one of the 8 not the ff. ellen created him. evidently he was just a good guy. i still think there is resurrection tech still on earth.”
I definitely know this
I never said Daniel was one of the FF? I even stated “Lets say this Daniel (Cylon model 7) is Kara’s father.” in my post. Just to clear that up, I do watch the show 
I agree with you on the fact that I still think there is resurrection tech on earth or close by, only way she could re-appear without getting far fetched and beyond the scope of what the show has become.
@MariaSunderland
I gave that many many thoughts. The fact that Starbuck was a man in TOS, changed to a woman here could have the same play as turning “Daniel” into a female through the genetic re-coding/mess up that Cavil/John did.
In the end I just *personally* felt that it was a little misguided when I eventually played it back in my mind. The possibility that Daniel could be nothing more than a small name drop here and there to make Cavil appear really evil is there, but I feel he will have something to do with the next few episodes. And as I stated I do think he is Kara’s father and we will see childhood flashbacks.
I mean look at the way Kara is at the Piano with the Piano player? Doesn’t it look rather innocent? Like a father who loves music and the world of art trying to teach that to his daughter? Now thats definitely saying “a picture is worth a thousand words” as there is definitely room for personal opinion on that.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
I visited the youwillknowthetruth site again and looked at the last clue, “22:59:44″. I’m thinking that this will be the time stamp on the screen when the Galactica is destroyed in the last episode.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
And now for a little structure.
I have constructed a timeline of “hard” events. Hard events meaning things discussed in the series, no speculation. And there are four factions that are simply unknown, in that they have not been represented as themselves. These factions are “Lords of Kobol”, “Head Baltar/Six and FF Warners”, those that “Nuked Earth” and “one true god”. Now these can be different factions or one and the same. So, now for some speculation….
Earth was nuked by metal cylons of earth. These metal cylons do not have FTL drives (like the final five) and are therefore somewhere traveling. They left Earth and went to seek the 12 colonies. They will find the colonies after the colony-cylons have abandon the colonies, meaning they too will have crossed space in search of an enemy only to find empty planets. They suffer without an enemy just as the colonials suffer when earth was barren and thus no ally (the promise of Earth was truely to find more people, the planet itself was the tangible expression of the desire). The interesting part is that the metal cylons of earth, although in harmony with skin-jobs are contacted by the “one true god”, who commands them to purge the pagans.
The head charaters of Six, Baltar and the FF are the Lords of Kobol. But don’t think that they are here to help. Kobol saw the “death” and fall of the Lords of Kobol with only the hollow religion remaining. The LOK are in essence rounding up representatives of their Kobol children. The gathering is to ensure a proper smiting of the lot. Let them kill the majority of themselves and then coral them together for a final “gladiator-style” game for their amusement. All will perish. Like I said, it won’t end well for anyone.
Its actually quite humorous. A “one true god” manifests itself and commands the destructions of the pagan world by a favored tribe. What BSG adds is the twist is that the “one true god” is a phony construct of the many gods who use it to mess with the unorthodox inorder to do their will. A will which their regular followers would want explanations but LOK can’t be troubled with explaining. The cyle is not human and cylons but LOK and their children. The children growup and overthrow the parents only these parents are gods and they eat their children… generation after generation. You see, Kobol is about ready to support a “humanity again”.
P.S. let me know where to upload the powerpoint timeline to BSGCast directly… no middle cylons… i mean men
February 16th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
okay,
Bad thought…
What if in my prior comment, it was the skin-job earth-cylons that nuked earth…
Frak… That would mean Metals wins at the colonies and flesh wins on earth.
Cavil wants to be a machine and the earth skin-job-cylons want to be flesh. So they are travelling to the colonies to join up and pretend to never have been cylons. They want the colonies as companions just as the colonials wanted earth as companions…
Total mind FRAK, but I like it. The earth skin-job cylons nuked earth to hide the evidence that they were once metal.
Hey self loathing for Cavil and the earth skin-job cylons. How poetic. And Lee already gave a self loathing speech at Baltars trial. This is really ending worse then I thought. Good for me… frak geata, zarak and rosilyn. Had these people stood their ground and fought to the end, the self loathing would be over by now.
P.S. Starbuck in white cinderella dress in last scene, last episode. (foreshadowing beings of light… get it).
February 16th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
I know the old show has absolutism no connection to the new one except for the plot but being though rdm has followed the originial story line than I found something that would support my time travel theory. This is of course going to be the new shows take on a concept of the old one.Its the openieng narations of tos.
There are those who believe that life here began out there, far across the universe, with tribes of humans who may have been the forefathers of the Egyptians, or the Toltecs, or the Mayans. Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive somewhere beyond the heavens…
If they decide to keep forefathers plot than time travel is the only way that would work.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
I don’t know if anyone answered this already: but the FF were activated by the nebula and the “over the watchtower”–those were the triggers. Activated; in the sense that they realized they were cylons, but not triggered like poor Boomer was when she saw all her “sisters” on the base star. I still found that to be one of the most tragic moments on this show.
I’m not sure who still thinks that’s not Earth–it is, sadly, it is, and nuked to bits. C’est la vie!
As for “this will happen again”–I believe that I stated here (I think), that my theory is that the FF are the guardians of humanity AGAINST itself. Thus pertaining to the following:
The 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth and left markers along the way.
They got to earth, procreated and created their own cylons. They enslaved them and treated them badly.
I don’t know who warned them on Earth, but it led to their recreating the resurrection technology, which they had left behind since they could procreate.
They were resurrected, and went to the 12 Colonies to warn them to treat their robots well.
They were too late, it was the middle of Cylon War #!. They stopped, only because the FF made a deal to help them w/resurrection technology, and help them to create the humanoid models.
But in their making them so human, they got John, who went nuts w/jealousy and rage, (not to mention the oedipal complex) killed the FF, the resurrected, he boxed them.
We know the rest–thus the extermination of the 12 Colonies as repayment for their enslavement by humanity. Why this led to such extreme anger, such as wiping out a race, is now only understood by the psychotic Cavil. So the “this will happen again” was how it happened the extermination of each race has happened 2x already. However, I believe that Hera and Caprica’s baby are the ones who will break the cycle. But I listened to the podcast for this epi and Ron said that it was not going to end well for Caprica and baby.
So, when the FF were manipulated by Cavil, ie. to be members of humanity w/out their memories, they all defended humanity. In fact they were LEADERS in the defense against the cylons. His experiment backfired. The FF were always protecting humanity, until they were discovered, which was when humanity was on its’ own AGAIN.
So, I always feel like it hearkens back to how Sharon tells Adama in RII, that maybe humanity doesn’t deserve to survive? But I think that question should be does either? Yes, as we saw when the FF were figuring out fault, it was difficult to determine fault, because it everyone’s and only annoying Tory said it was humanity’s fault, and Tigh, who still bears guilt out of being a cylon when it comes to Adama, says they need to take responsibility for what they did.
I think that one of the best parts about this show, is how decision-making is in the grey, as that is what it means to be a great leader. This is what both Adama (especially him) and Roslin have been throughout this show. It is what she means when she essentially gives Lee the Presidency and says “You always want to do the right thing, but it is not necessarily the smart thing” Well said, well said.
Oh, and on a side note: I think Anders seeing the glowing was the writers playing w/us a little, and Anders hallucinating since he was about to have a seizure. I definitely do not think Daniel is the hybrid in Razor, he wasn’t one. I’m still on w/that he’s Kara’s Dad!
Thoughts?
A
February 17th, 2009 at 1:21 am
The single loving God coming from the Centurians gave me an idea. In the Sci Fi promo for Caprica, the girl talks about the single loving God that touched Zoe in the virtual world (i think). So what if the holoband is used to collect human personality constructs and then being downloaded into centurion bodies. This essentially ends up being what Cavil so desperately wants (free will and ability to experience but yet be a machine) and can explain how they believed in the single loving god (cause it cant have been part of their programming, and i base that on absolutely nothing)
February 17th, 2009 at 1:42 am
If I may, I don’t think time travel will an issue in RDM’s BSG. I don’t believe he would go where another show boldly went on many an occasion. Either the BSG universe is set in a distant future or in a distant past. For one, I believe the Colonials set foot on Earth like it will be somewhere down the road. I also don’t believe that Daniel is a character we’ve already seen. As it was mentioned by a few posters before, I’m not convinced it would be a good idea to introduce another Cylon character. With only five episodes to go, giving that new character a background and explaining why/how the frak yet another long forgotten Cylon escaped the holocaust and boarded a ship bound for Earth would really feel like RDM is cramming too much stuff in too little time (Or, maybe “The Plan” will explain everything). Dualla, Gaeta, Billy, Kat, Zarek, Cain, Kendra Shaw, Cally, and my virginity are gone. Deal with it! Like many of you, I would like to know where “we” fit in! Where do 65 billion years of evolution on OUR Earth fit in? That is my biggest concern. In a way, I should be asking, “where do I fit in?”, Little’ol me! Isn’t that the question we’ve all being dying to get an answer to? Is that what the show was all about? Where do we all, as individuals, fit in? I should ease up on the Chamalla!!!!!!!
February 17th, 2009 at 1:44 am
I’m not sure if anyone’s mentioned it above, but I have to wonder if part of either fleet (human, cylon, or rebel cylon) will strike out and look for a new planet (or go back and reclaim an older one). That would tie back into the prophecies quite neatly.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:39 am
Hey Matt and Nat,
Superfantasticawesome Cast. I always keep saying, you guys just keep getting better and better at doing these casts! Keep it up.
I just wanted to comment on something you said about the Cylon Colony where the Five had their “resurrection equipment”.
THey are not referring to Earth. They are referring to the Cylon Homeworld, the one to which the Centurions retreated after the First Cylon War and the one on which the Eight skinjobs were created by the Five and ressurection technology (the Hub) was created for the Centurion/Skinjobs.
Cavil specifically states “They are not aware of the colony” or something along those lines, referring to the humans.
At least, that’s my understanding
We’ll find out I guess.
But I have a strong feeling that the fleet will end up on the Cylon Homeworld, the only healthy and civilized planed that we are aware of, since Kobol, the 12 Colonies and Earth are all nuked. The Cylon Homeworld (or the 14th Colony if you will
) DOES exist. That is where the Cylons first attacked from, where they developped their resources. So there is no question that it doesnt exist. And it makes sense for the fleet to eventually return to the Cylon homeworld…at least the Cylons of the Fleet, and continue their lives in an existing civilization.
Adalla
February 17th, 2009 at 3:17 am
hey, guys just had a cool thought, what if for the ressurrection technology to work you had to have all 8 models of cylon dna or something. so Cavil would have screwed himself by killing all the Daniels. Oh well just a thought.
February 17th, 2009 at 3:39 am
Hey Matt and Nat: I live in the Orlando area (Winter Park) and I’ve been seeing the commercials for the Con on TV. Tricia Helfer, James Callis, Luciana Carro and Jen Halley are going to be there (for the commercials, they only have them for the new series, while for the website, they also have TOS Battlestar’s Dirk Benedict, Anne Lockhart, Herbert Jefferson, Jr. and Melody Anderson). I’ve been considering on going, but I’m not really sure (I am really tempted at this point since I’ve seen the con’s media guest list). But if there’s going to be a frak party separate from the Con, I’ll see if I can join in for that (thank god my class for Full Sail is online for this month).
February 17th, 2009 at 7:12 am
Another few questions come to me.
If the humanoid cylon civilization of the Final Five was destroyed by their metal cylons, are those metal cylons still floating around space? Are there two metal cylon groups? First, those created by the Earth cylons and second, those created by the Caprica humans? Do the Earth Toasters show up at the last minute and join up with the Centurians from Caprica?
Do the Caprican Centurians, who wanted to create skin jobs, side with the Final Five and the remaining humans against the Earth Toaster who may hate everybody?
All the best,
Tom aka Irish Hermit
February 17th, 2009 at 8:03 am
I think Anders will be back and voting on whether to stay or leave the fleet. In the preview the monitor next to him showed his brain activity to be either back to normal or highly active. As in there is a lot going on in his head. Did anyone else notice that? Guess we will have to wait and see.
Also I am confused about Kobol and is that where the cylons came from or is it earth. And if they where created on Kobol and they left to find earth who did they fight with on earth if they were all cylons. Who warned them the end was near? Some of these things does follow a straight path or make any sense.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:06 am
I disagree with the people who say that Daniel was Kara’s father or Zak Adama. I think that Daniel is the “little dog faced boy” chasing Cavil through the yellow mists. His model may have survived, but it more closely resembles Chewbacca than Bill Adama. Frankly it makes sense, as an artist is of little use to Cavil. I hate to assume that Cavil is some kind of evil puppetmaster, but it is convenient. Cavil wanted the FF, who are still partially human to see humanity his way, but their humanity seems to have won out. That being said, they may still serve Cavil’s ends, unwittingly or intentionally. The “piano player” in the photo has oddly shaped hands, slightly more simian than human so it may be a Daniel, but not Kara’s father. I do not think that the sixes were based on Ellen herself, but just some random person that one of the FF remembered and wanted to resurrect. Ellen’s reference to “her children,” has more to do with the fact that she figured out the technology than anything else. It is perfectly reasonable that the Centaurians/Centurions would have jumped at resurrection technology, they’re machines, and infiltration is a perfectly logical strategy, and what better way to infiltrate your enemy than to look like them, it even sows distrust and suspicion as a bonus. Additionally, having humanoids directing them might give the Cylons and edge, just like the Cylons in BSG:TOS did with John Collicos and the Borg with Alice Kirge. By the way, I thought I heard Centaurians in the episode, not Centurions, if so this adds a new planet and a new race. One more thing, subluminal means less than light speed, so the FF aged very slowly, had they traveled at super-luminal speed they wouldn’t have aged at all, no statsis needed. Still, what about that Viper, doesn’t make sense for the Cylons to have tons of vipers lying about that they can rig up so that one viper is virtually identical to another, with a freaky quantum entangled radio direction finder. If this was Star Trek I’d say parellel universe or transporter accident accounts for everything. It’s still possible that she is a super secret Cylon agent. Lots of theories.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:36 am
“vicavox (1 month ago)
Or another idea to think about…in the battlestar universe there are two major numbers. 12 is the first, with the twelve original colonies, the twelve cylons, but then there’s the number 13…the thirteenth tribe, the thirteenth colony, I’m not sure they’ll bombard us with a secret “thirteenth” Cylon, but I wouldn’t bet against that number coming back into play in some form or another.”
- taken from the youtube thread “You Will Know The Truth Unknown”
Ah, I’ll just blow my own trumpet once more……thank you.
It seems to be quite blatant now that Starbuck is indeed a hybrid, not only does the description of the new mysterious Seven Model which makes the original seven now the original eight (number confusion anyone?) seem to fit the profile of Starbuck’s father as she herself seemingly shares many of his traits, but that when Anders was going fruit-loopy just before his operation he saw the Final Three that were with him “glowing” and Starbuck “glowing” as well but a slightly different colour. This must mean that she is not a Cylon but that she has Cylon DNA implanted within her, which pretty much resolves the “WHO IS DANIEL?” question. However, this does open “Moore” (got to love puns) questions
You could see Moore kicking himself in regards to not planning ahead for a possible thirteenth cylon revelation, but the fact the model was “discontinued” by Cavil and that there was only one model kind of permits the faux-pas. What is of more importance now is Starbuck and how infact she has managed to regenerate. This will all leads us back to Earth. As Matt and Natt stated in their bsgcast, it seems Cavil knows where Earth is, and Cavil also seems to hate everyone who’s not on board his ship/fleet, this includes all the Cylons with the human fleet, and the entire human fleet themselves…which would lead us to believe that Galactica will end up hobbling back to Earth and come into the final conflict with Cavil and his minions. This undoubtedly will be the series finale, and will undoubtedly leave us with a couple of deaths, the most pin pointed one at the moment being the ultimate demise of Galactica, although we have to wonder will the newly drunken Admiral go down with his ship? Saul equalling responsible, Adama equalling drunk…role reversal anyone? Although I digress, I believe the answer to Starbuck’s nature, lies with D’Anna who is now wandering the remains of the apocalyptic Earth…my guess is she manages to stumble onto something whilst she’s there. Not many people commented on it though, but whilst I’m talking about Starbuck, her nature and her viper, was it me or was the equipment piece used by Leoben on the basestar to allow the President to communicate with the fleet part of Starbuck’s Viper wreckage?
And to Matt and Natt HAH! I told you Ellen was the right choice to make. Sorry, lost my composure there, but I did deteste the anti-Ellen wave that eminated from the immediate aftermath of her revelation as the Fifth and final Cylon (although that dubious honour is no up for debate), I knew it would be a good choice, and in your defense you did keep the faith in Moore and he has rewarded his children.
As for Tori though, quite the antithesis, I don’t quite see her point and purpose, although I haven’t seen her point and purpose for nigh on two series now so it is now my turn to place my faith in Moore and allow him to guide me to the answers that I, and we all, seek.
In regards to next weeks preview, if there were an even number of Cylons then why would Ellen have the deciding vote? Chances are it would seem to make Ellen’s vote be the decisive one, one of the Cylons would be unable to vote for one reason or another. Unless they have the age old “if it’s a tie, we leave” scenario.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:51 am
It is nice to know that my thoughts about Cavil have come true I’ve always thought that since he was #1 that he knew alot more the he has ever said 1) It was the only way he could control his kind and 2) that he had his own agenda (kinda like LOR on ST:NG) lets face it the man a nutcase and control freak.
Another thought is that since he was the first that his design is not as technology advanced as the other models (If Tigh can get Six pregnant, why after having his way with Ellen that she did not, maybe he is “Sterile”)
That is of course that is nature of the FF males can impregnate the females and the FF women can become pregos by the men of the original seven that we knew about.
Another answer I got from this episode was how did the cylon 12 get the look for each Line (we now know that Cavil was Ellens Father and we probably find out more in these last ep. or they will leave thast for the Caprica show to answer.
I just Love this show and am going to miss when it is over but that means that I’ll watch Caprica as soon it comes out on DVD
February 17th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Matt & Nat – Thanks for the call out about my observation with Astronaut Chaffee. I still remember the crew, Challenger & Columbia every January.
Robin C – Maybe Cavil reprogrammed Ellen’s body so she cannot have children. Possibly Six is an original design with the later Six’s made steril by Cavil.
I am waiting for Anders to be ressurected on Earth and be discovered by D’Anna. Either that or he is going to have to “reboot” with the help of the other FF/Original 8. Anders ressurecting on Earth would allow for him to warn the Fleet about the Cylons already finding technology / Ellen’s lab.
February 17th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Great ‘cast Matt and Nat. Good points!
Miraba Says: “As soon as Ellen offered Boomer the apple, I knew that Boomer would betray Cavil. Symbolic fruit is symbolic.”
It may be that Boomer betrays Ellen, not Cavil….we shall see.
And betrayl is more about Jesus and Judas and wine…the snake in Eden offering Eve an apple was about knowledge and disobeying god. Ellen was offering Boomer knowledge about the big picture and she took it (even though she didn’t take the apple) and disobeyed her ‘god’ (Cavil). You could also say in this scene that Boomer (symbolizing her ‘twin’ Athena) acting as Eve is another parallel, because Eve was the mother of the human race, but in this case Hera is the first of a new race with Athena her mother.
What a show!
vicavox asks “In regards to next weeks preview, if there were an even number of Cylons then why would Ellen have the deciding vote?” Because there isn’t an even number; D’Anna does not appear again.
I am going to whine now: I am really tired of talk of Starbuck being Daniel. Strangely enough, I don’t mind the talk of Earth maybe not being Earth etc. If Starbuck is somehow a man whose DNA has been tainted and screwed with and is now in a woman’s body, then the show is essentially saying a woman can’t be a tough, determined, courageous, promiscuous, unfaithful, hard-ass tremendously gifted fighter pilot. I just don’t think RDM would do that. She is not Daniel, people! I am with those who think he’s gone. If she is, I will actually be really pissed.
Re. T-shirts, I see that Matt and Nat’s shirts on this BSGcast site are through spreadshirt.com, so I went there and ordered myself two. One with ‘Sometimes you have to roll the hard six’ on the front and ‘So say we all.’ on the back. The other has ‘What do you hear?” on the front and ‘Nothing but the rain’ in italics on the back. I will let you know what I think when they arrive. I sweated long and hard over the font choices!!!
February 17th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Excellent article from the Chicago Tribune follows: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-.html#more
Also — I want to know who “activated” the final four cylons to let them know that they were Cylons. THAT person/cylon/hybrid holds a lot of keys to the castle for us who are pursuing enlightenment…
February 17th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I really hope that Ron Moore and all of the writers have really, truly mapped this thing out. I’m starting to think that there will be holes, gaps and mistakes. My faith is wavering.
If the temple of the 5 was built when the 13th tribe was on the way to Earth 3000 years ago (Ellen mentions this), and the destruction of the Earth was 2000 years ago, that only allows enough time for a 1000 year old civilization on Earth. So it’s not us. Maybe a future earth, or an earth in the past, but we have more than 1000 years of history, so it can’t be us, can it? Am I missing something?
Also, I assumed that the “Colony” that Cavil refers to is the Cylon home world, or some other planet rather than Earth. Wouldn’t he just say “Earth” if he meant “Earth”? I just don’t think that we’re going to see Earth again anyway. Some other planet.
I HATE the idea that Starbuck is a man. Come-on. They wouldn’t do that to us gals, would they? Up until now, I’ve thought that she was Ellen and Saul’s child, as we know that the cylons on earth could make babies. But Anders doesn’t seem to have a clue what is going on with Starbuck so that doesn’t work. Starbuck as the daughter of Daniel fits, mostly because of the photo of Starbuck and unknown dude playing the piano on youwillknowthetruth.com. But she must not be 1/2 cylon, 1/2 human like Hera because Mr. Moore has gone to great lengths to make Hera the only child of both races. Maybe Daniel and Ellen had a baby? and that is Starbuck?
And besides, how did her ship resurrect? I’m now much more comfortable with the notion that he was brought back using the Kobol Resurrection Tech. This makes her either a lord of Kobol, or some sort of Agent or Angel of Kobol. but still – who is that piano player……
I need to say that the whole idea of FF and S8 babies is kinda yucky – I mean it seems to me with Saul and the 6 we are skirting around issues of cylon incest. And the whole Cavil/Ellen relationship. That is truly frakked up. Mother/son and Father/daughter sex. Inbreeding. Did the writers mean for this to look like incest?
yayamoo
PS. Seeing the preview of Caprica, not sure that I’m really up for seeing human sacrifice. It seems to be making humanity look really depraved. Not sure if I’ll be watching.
February 17th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
@yaymoo:
I don’t think the human sacrifice is real. I think it is a version of second-life, like a virtual world…which is why the one girl in the preview is wearing those weird lights/ sunglasses in the preview. Maybe we are on Earth 3,000 (or a large number like that) after the end of BsG. So that is how our legends of gods started (Apollo, Zeus, Hera, etc.).
-Mario
February 17th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Daniel Graystone can not be Number Seven because he re-invented the cylons back on Caprica and according to Ellen the cylon-human war was already in the midst when the final five finally make it to the 12 colonies in order to warn/teach them to treat the centurions with love and respect and brake the cycle that started on Kobol. Personally I think that Number Seven is somehow connected to Starbuck and Baltar, but that is yet to be seen.
February 17th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Correction to my above comment- It was Sam Anders who said that they arrive to the 12 colonies too late, not Ellen.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Who is Daniel?
Remember the episode way back in the first or second seasons the pilot who was captured from the spy mission on the Cylons and experimented on for years. His call sign was “Bulldog”. I did some research and found his name to be…… you guessed it, Daniel Novacek
Taken from wikipedia.com
Novacek, Daniel “Bulldog”
* Played by: Carl Lumbly
* First Appearance: “Hero”
Lieutenant Daniel “Bulldog” Novacek, or Danny, is a Viper pilot, who served under Adama (and Tigh) aboard Battlestar Valkyrie. He was attacked by Cylons and then shot down by Adama on the Cylon side of the Armistice Line, one year before the Destruction of the Twelve Colonies, on a deep recon mission to assess Cylon strength. He had been piloting a Stealthstar. The Cylons let him go after three years in captivity aboard a Basestar hoping that he would murder Adama for vengeance. The plan was a partial success, as Bulldog did attack Adama, but after Tigh calmed down Bulldog by telling him of the harsh realities of life in the military, Bulldog ceased his attack. He was later given a uniform by Adama, and left for another ship. It is not known if he will return to duty.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Malik…if that is correct…very interesting. I still think it’s graystone.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I still say one of the beter lines this episode was Adamas reply to Cheif about him being a Cylon “Thats right, so’s my XO”
February 17th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Favorite line “You point a finger back far enough you get to blame a germ for splitting in two.”
The writing in the episode was great.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
If you listen to the podcast RDM said it was the writer’s first time. He was really good, esp. making John Cavil a whinny little bitch.
-Mario
February 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Is this not correct?
I don’t think so tho…I’m voting Cavil hated the Daniels so much he destroyed them all.
Daniel Greystone was a human being of the 12 Tribes who on Caprica created AI (the ‘Caprica cylons’ who became centurians …and other types?) ten years before the first cylon war. (AI had already been created long ago by humans on Kobol, which became the cylons who went to Earth: let’s call them Earth-cylons.)
During that war, the FF arrive, and convince the Caprica-cylons (centurians) to ceasefire, then create the 8 Caprica-cylon-models, one of which was a model named Daniel.
Could the artistic Caprica-cylon-model Daniel be based on that scientist who created AI on Caprica named Daniel Greystone? Possible. Doesn’t really matter. But they are not the same entity, that’s for sure.
Could Cavil have implanted memories and placed in the colonies one of the artistic Caprica-cylon-model Daniels, and he became a fighter pilot callsign Bulldog? Possible. If so, he’s certainly not Starbuck’s daddy!!!
Please tell me if I’ve fraked up! Please.
I know what Mary McDonnel was saying now about the last episodes presenting the whole story in a new way. AI sprung up twice – it all makes sense now for my small brain…except what Starbuck and Baltar are…
If in these last episodes, Cavil’s basestar, the final five and the colony/equipment are all killed/destroyed, the cycle could still repeat in the future…but with different centurians, models, etc.
February 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Thinking about it more it seems more and more likely to me that Daniel is Starbuck’s dad because it would explain why starbuck has artistic talent which she probably inherited from her father and it would explain why she kept drawing the same shape over and over again as her father being Number seven learned it from Ellen as he was her favorite and he could have past it to starbuck as a genetic memory. I also have a theory about starbuck and how she returned after exploding over earth and it is so: If starbuck’s father was Daniel it could be that after he noticed that his daughter is drawing shapes from the stories he was told by Ellen and his first hand knowledge of John’s jealous and sadistic nature he came to conclusion of what is going to happen or had a vision of future events and knowing of how important Starbuck is to the future of the human race could have made him decide that he will travel to earth, being Ellen’s favorite it would seem very likely that she told him about earth and and the resurrection lab and of their location, and find the old resurrection lab in order to make sure that starbuck will resurrect and to remake his line. Now that would very likely because, as far as I can recall, it was never really explain what happened to starbuck’s father so we don’t really know if he died on caprica or something else happened to him as him and starbuck’s mother were no longer together when starbuck was young. It would also explain why starbuck’s mother was cold and abusive to her as he probably at some point he told her, Starbuck’s mother, of who he really is and by proxy what starbuck is and how important she is and having served as soldier in the cylon-human war she probably bore deep resentment and loathing towards her half cylon daughter and it also explains why from early in her life Starbuck’s mother was guiding her for a special role in life as she more then likely knew about her daughters destiny from her father. This would also explain how the hybrids know so much about starbuck as they probably have a very deep and spiritual connection to her being hybrid herself. Now if Starbuck is really a cylon-human hybrid then it would explain why she such a damn good pilot and soldier because she has cylon instincts and reflexes, and it would also explains why the Leobens are so attracted to her being that the leobens fancy themselves as prophets and the most spiritual of all the models.
Please mail me at: mordi_peshkess@hotmail.com if you have any further thoughts, comment and addons for my comment/theory.
February 17th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
I still think Daniel is Daniel “BullDog” Novacek
from episode “Hero”
February 17th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Daniel Graystone can not be Number Seven because it would nullify the entire time-line of events that was established in this episode and the series as a whole and it would just make no sense that Number Seven was created before the final five arrived at the 12 colonies because it was the final five who created the humanoid cylon models as a part of their deal with the 12 colonies cylon centurions. plus it makes sense that they were some or one Daniel models active when John infected their genetic code and amniotic fluid so it safe to deduce that at least one model escaped and survived without johns knowledge, it is also very possible that Ellen had something to do with at least one Daniel model surviving and keeping his existence a secret from John. It is though very likely that the number seven model was named after Daniel Graystone as he was the inventor of the 12 colonies centurion cylon models.
February 17th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I agree with you on that Morducai. I can’t fathom him being Daniel Graystone.
In the previews of Caprica Daniel Graystone is working with Admiral Adama’s father, Joseph Adama. If you make him the “#7″ clyon you are going so far back to state that this #7 was made back when Admiral Adama was not even born (or very young depending on when they met).
Thats why I still believe he is Kara’s father, and an entirely separate entity to graystone
February 17th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
sorry to double-post ><
William Adama was born H5/21290
his timeline
* D6/21311 – First commission: battlestar Galactica fighter squadron
* E4/21312 – Commendation for shooting down Cylon fighter in first combat mission
* D5/21314 – Mustered out of service post-armistice
* R6/21317 – Served as deckhand in merchant fleet and as common [...] aboard inter-colony tramp freighters
* D1/21331 – Recommissioned to Fleet
* D6/21337 – Major: battlestar Atlantia
* R8/21341 – Executive Officer: battlestar Columbia
* C2/21345 – Commander: battlestar Valkyrie
* C2/21348 – Commander: battlestar Galactica
That puts Will Adama at age 58 at the time he BECAME commander of BSG.
He also was set to retire after 50 years of service. Which in turn can mean hes what? 68 (supposedly) if you figure he joined the military at 18 (if Colonials have that law/limit).
February 17th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Ooh! Ooh! Mention my frak party on the next podcast
It’d be great to have a few more people over for it! It’s in London, Hammersmith (hey where Jamie Bambers from 
) at my place. Tell people to add me on facebook and i’ll organise it.
February 17th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Hey Matt I saw you at the grocery store this morning. Did a little double take. You were buying muffins, right? Or was it your identical twin.
February 17th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
I saw Baltar at the corner store at noon today. He was with a tall blonde woman. He bought some Cheetos. And a pen.
February 17th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
I gotta say, I really love this show for tackling the complexities, frailties, and universal truths inherent to humanity. One major premise of this show is the issue of slavery. We saw it playing out on the tillium ship when the workers revolted at the slave-labor conditions they faced, and the issues of class/caste divisions within the fleet (rich colonies vs. poor colonies). More centrally, we see the tremendous consequences of enslavement of the cylons (Colonial and Earth) and how they eventually rebelled in a very violent way against their oppressors.
A simple human truth is that every great society of humanity has been built upon the backs of slave-labor. The empires of ancient Egypt, Rome, China, etc., thru colonial America, and even our modern industrialized nations (substituting humans with the internal combustion engine as the slave of choice). Look closely enough some places today and you still find people working as slaves (either literally or via economic slavery), providing the materials, goods, and services to the plebes and the elite.
The industrialized world is looking for ever smarter, faster, and stronger machines to utilize as cheap labor/slaves, even substituting them for our pilots and soldiers. You can even say that this show is serving as a sort of warning to us that we should be cognizant of what it is we are building and why. Will we create our own version of cylons in the coming generations? How will we treat them when they begin to truly think for themselves? And will machines inherit the Earth? Perhaps RDM is a sort of Head character, or maybe that’s all just BoL/LoKs ;D
February 17th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Hey Guys….This might be a long shot, But what if Geta was Daniel? Hmm…what ya think?
He was an artist, Singer and scientist. I sure I wrong but you never know.
ps… great podcast !!!!!!
February 17th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
As where doing long shots here one for you what if Anders being brain dead is not from surgery but instead his after downloading somewhere possible Earth since the technology is still there. Maybe when he regained all his memories he remember about another resurrection ship out there solely for the final 5 so he let himself download so he wouldn’t lose his memories due to the surgery. Maybe this ship might hidden back on Earth. Which means we haven’t seen the last of Earth & don’t forget about D’Anna!!
February 17th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Sorry just finish off what I was saying above:
So all is left on Galactica of Anders is a shell of his old body, there just nothing in there his consciousness has downloaded else where!
February 17th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
@ Micheal: Funny you’d mention that. The moment Anders mentionned that there was an 8th cylon (N.7), I turned to my boyfriend and said, “Wouldn’t it be ironic and a slap in the face if it turned out being Gaeta? He’d turn out being what he ended up despising. BOOM!”
Obviously it’s not the case, but still… XD
February 17th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
And Cavil just let him live on New Caprica? No one else had a name change, so…Daniel is Daniel. Although, I’ve noticed something…John, Simon, Samuel, Saul. All very christian christian in faith. Is this how the two faiths started? Hmm… just figured we’d keep going on the fallacies of our wants a bit longer. Only five more weeks to do that.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Hey there guys! Long time lurker and visitor! With this hugely important episode that’s been shown, I definitely can’t keep my lid on the thoughts I have on it and on what’s to come.
I’ve been going through pretty much all the comments for this episode, and so far, absolutely no one has brought this up. Has anyone noticed how this entire 40-minute episode changes the ENTIRE dynamics for the series??? We always thought that the Cylons themselves were responsible (and were held accountable) for the holocaust on the Colonies. Now that we know what Cavil has been doing and thinking along, this changes everything upside down; it wasn’t their own idea: it was Cavil’s. If he wanted to torture and make the Final Five see humanity’s self destructive nature firsthand, he could’ve done it once he was finished manipulating the other Cylon models, including the Centurions. If the other humanoid models were created after Cavil but before the Final Five were destroyed, shouldn’t they have memories of them as well? If there were several models roaming around like norm, then wouldn’t they have undergone the same type of treatment (meaning their memories removed)? If he removed the phallic inhibitor on the Centurions, then did any of them realize what was going on and go against him before the process was done? Did any of the humanoid models go against Cavil as well before he manipulated them to not think about the Final Five?
Like I said, this boatload of revelations literally flip the entire show’s premise on its head. We always thought it was the Cylons in general, yet, it was actually Cavil who was the main brainchild of the plan. With the revelations coming from the Final Five, this will have a HUGE wave of repercussions on the entire fleet, both Colonial and Cylon.
In Cavil’s jealousy, he did the ultimate mistake: by putting the Final Five where they were. If he hadn’t placed the Final Five within the fleet strategically, none of them would have made it with the nuclear attacks theoretically; he could’ve shut down the entire line (a la D’Anna) and let the chaos play out on its own and watch humanity destroy itself to pieces. However, he chose to fuel his anger, bitterness, and vengeance overcome his thoughts and lead him to have the cathartic view of the Final Five wandering aimlessly throughout humanity, not knowing what they really are, and with their own inability to see their knowledge, cannot save humanity from it’s impending doom.
With these thoughts in mind, there’s 2 scenarios coming:
1) With Ellen now gone from Cavil’s baseship, she coordinates a plan to bring down Cavil, but, judging from the scenes, a few of the FF don’t want to bring down Cavil, they just want to be neutral about everything. Her plan will be to somehow bring back the Centurions, bring back their phallic inhibitors into place, and let them realize the truth. If they are as benevolent to her as the one Centurion was to lift Ellen out of the tub, they will listen. Like Germans in WWII, they will realize they have defied their one true God and committed horrific atrocities they had no knowledge of what was truly going on. If the rest of the humanoid Cylons realize that Cavil has tricked them all this time and maimed the Centurions from their true purpose, they also can be able to rebel against Cavil. If the Colonial Fleet finds out the truth about the Cylons’ own history and the vicious cycle that has happened for thousands of years, they have the possibility of coming together and accepting the Cylons as their own, because, if you realize it, each of the Final Five had a special connection with the fleet (Anders = a former pyramid player, now marine; Tyrol = Chief of Engineering, helped the strike on the tylium ship in ‘Dirty Hands’; Tory = Representative of the President to the press; Saul and Ellen = the epitemy of seeing a Cylon-Cylon relationship is as good as a human relationship or even Cylon/Human relationship is); at the same time, if they reveal the true secret of Hera’s nature to the fleet, Hera might be the saving grace to them: to realize that an innocent child can have the best of both worlds and not be judged by any of her actions since she is so young. Together with the Cylon fleet against Cavil, the only threat to life itself would be crushed. In the end, they will wonder and see what their main purpose is; that both human and Cylon are capable of doing horrific things to each other, even themselves, but can forgive each other and learn to coexist because both races, on their own terms of survival, depend on it. Anders (with newly recouped memories from the brain-dead pattern) and Starbuck lead the fleet home (”lead on the wingS [notice plural] of an angel”: matching tatoos that form a set of wings)
2) Everything I listed above happens; BUT, the major difference comes from where both sides are still very hesitant, very closed to the idea. Both humans and Cylons will have mixed reactions all over the board; because of this, they will create major separations among themselves. With the followers of Baltar carrying guns around in the promo for next week, we might have the clash of ideologies. What will this lead to? The seperation of the fleet, causing them to break out of formation but within close proximity to each other: The rebirth of the 12 Colonies. With the 13th, the 12 Colonies can exile them to a distant planet and keep the Cylons in close range; always monitored, until the humans break off total communications from the Colonies. When the relocation happens, all the Cylon models come to live there and prosper; but the Final Five will recreate the Resurrection technology to always remind them the threat of the cycle happening again is always there.
Major plot points/theories I have:
1) My bets on who’s wanting out/staying in the fleet:
Wanting out: Tory, Tyrol
Staying: Anders, Saul (Ellen obviously being the wild card)
2) RDM said there’s gunna be a sad state of affairs concerning Saul’s and Six’s baby: I think the remaining anti-Cylon rebels in the fleet might kill Six for good, because they can’t stand the thought of the first Cylon/Cylon baby; or, as the followers of Baltar are still running around and now have guns, if they see Baltar checking on Six, they could scream traitor and kill her. With this event though, Head Six will come back and her full agenda will come full circle.
3) I have a funny feeling Natalie’s coming back. She did ‘die’ in “Guess What’s Coming to Dinner?”, but with her visions as she was dying, I believe she was downloaded but either boxed a la D’Anna, or like Ellen, kept as a giant secret because she’s the only one who knew the truth about the Centurions. She could be the one to turn the tide. (Anyone else think the Six model in ‘Blood on the Scales’ looked a LOT like her?)
4) Anyone thought that maybe Galactica herself was the ship the Final Five used to get to the Colonies or some form of it? It would make sense as the FTL drive is done for or else she’ll crumble, and if they travel at the snail speed they do at cruising it definitely would take thousands of year to get to the Colonies.
5) Anders will return full form as an FF, like Ellen, when he comes back from being in a brain-dead pattern, knowing all the memories like the back of his hand.
6) With the new intro of Daniel: if he possibly knew what was going to happen to him because of Cavil’s jealousy, could he be the one to lay the clues to Earth? (ie, The Arrow of Apollo being at the Delphi Museum on Caprica; the Opera House and the Tomb of Athena on Kobol, possibly the Pythean Scrolls?)
7) In reference to Tyrol holding the knife in the Last Supper picture: would he be willing to sacrifice one of the FF or another Cylon model to achieve his goals?
9) I think Daniel Graystone is indeed not part of the equation, BUT, might have influence on the picking of that specific name.
10) This one is a bit random and somewhat far-fetched, but, still interesting: Starbuck might be the one true God herself, always protecting the fleet in danger, being close to everyone, suffering under people who doubted her, and a peacefulness about her life before she ‘reseurected’ out of the nebula.
Phew, these last several episodes are definitely a thrill ride: both storytelling wise and in asking what being human is really all about.
Lastly, kudos to you Matt + Nat!!! Been watching you guys since you started BSGcast and I’m excited you guys are coming here to Orlando!!! Like CB2001 said, I’m not sure bout going to MegaCon just yet, but if you guys are doing an offsite Cast or doing a seperate frak party here, I’m totally in!
February 17th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
I agree that I now like Ellen too.
I love the idea of The Other 8 Being Someones dad, But I just think that Kara being His daughter would be to easy, I also Love the idea of there being something on earth that brought her back.
And They have to go back to earth, Deanna’s there!
The final battle is on earth?, It did happen before after all, and it will happen again I hear.
One More Thought, Daniel was Sexually Challenged Got a sex change, Wiped his memory and gave him self the name of Dualla, But He perfected his own resurrection tek on bord Galactica and So Dualla Will Come Back DAMN IT!!!lol
And That’s Why Her picture looked so old!
February 17th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Also I was knida right and kinda wrong about the numbers, you do start with 12 and work down.
They built starting at 12 and then built 1 Then 8?, What the hell kinda numbering system do cylons use??!?!
but I’m now wondering, 12,11,10,9 Tigh, Ellen, Anders And Tyrol, Is tory 7?, Is that why she doesnt seem to be that big yet, also why the number jump? Or Did they Build Cavil and Daniel On the way to the 12 and Cavil Killed The clones when they got there?
Why isnt 8,9,10,11,12 The final?
Also Does this mean Daniel is Zero?
I AM SO MIND FU&%ED BY THE NUMBERS!
February 17th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Holy Gaius, I was right! (basically)
check out my posts on episodes 402, 405, 406, 407
I totally called it that the centurion cylons were unnaturally advanced to the biological by an external source (I said lords of kobol, turns out it was final five. potato/potAto)
I was a little wrong about the “head” entities, but I still think that they are being orchestrated by the lords of kobol, whoever and wherever they are. I also think they are behind Kara.
I would say I wanna see Tyral and Boomer hook up again, but dude, she was fraking Jon, so shes just kinda tainted for me.
Once again, I fraking told you so about the centurion biological advancement (please excuse my harsh language)
Let me know what you guys think?
February 17th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Hey guys, I just wanted to say terrific analysis of the plot. I really enjoy your weekly reviews. Also, I wanted to comment on Ellen’s Lab. I thought that this might have been a reference to her lab being on the Cylon Colony (aka the Cylon homeworld). There must have been a location where she (and other four) built the Resurrection hub. And this would be a segue into learning about the Cylon Homeworld because the location of this is still up in the air. And I wasn’t really in agreement that Cavil knew the way to Earth, seeing how he was not created until after the final five reached the 12 colonies (the only way he would know is if the Cylons went from the 12 colonies to earth and then back to the 12 colonies, which does not seem likely). Lastly, wouldn’t it be cool if Gaeta turned out to be Daniel and that would be the secret that Baltar knows about.
February 17th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Mario Says:
February 17th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
“And Cavil just let him live on New Caprica? No one else had a name change, so…Daniel is Daniel. Although, I’ve noticed something…John, Simon, Samuel, Saul. All very christian christian in faith. Is this how the two faiths started? Hmm… just figured we’d keep going on the fallacies of our wants a bit longer. Only five more weeks to do that.”
First It could be that Daniel used a different name, and second all of the humanoid cylon names are actually Hebrew or ancient European in origin and i am even going to explain about what each name means.
Number One/John-English form of Iohannes, the Latin form of the Greek name Loannes, itself derived from the Hebrew name Yochanan meaning “YAHWEH is gracious”.
Number 2/Leoben-Derived from Hebrew lavan meaning “white” or it can also come from the Slavic word Lub or from the Czech element lib meaning “love”.
Number 3/D’Anna-Probably derived from an old Indo-European root meaning “heavenly, divine” or a latinate form of HANNAH which means “favour” or “grace”.
Number 4/Simon-From the Greek form of the Hebrew name Shim’on which meant “he has heard”.
Number 5/Aaron-From the Hebrew name Aharon which is most likely of unknown Egyptian origin but can also suggest meanings such as “high mountain” or “exalted”.
Number 6/-Sixes are the only model who appear not to have one particular “human name”, copies have appeared under the aliases “Shelly Godfrey”, “Gina Inviere”, “Natalie”, “Lida”, and “Caprica”
Number 7/Daniel-From the Hebrew name Daniyyel meaning “God is my judge”.
Number 8/Sharon-From an Old Testament place name meaning “plain” in Hebrew, referring to the fertile plain near the coast of Israel.
The Final Five
Ellen-Medieval english form of Helen which is an english form of the Greek Helene which mean “torch” or “corposant”, or possibly related to Selene “moon”
Saul-From the Hebrew name Sha’ul which means “asked for” or “prayed for”
Galen-Modern form of the Greek name Galenos which mean “calm”
Samuel-From the Hebrew name Shemu’el which could mean either “name of God” or “God has heard”
Tory-Diminutive of Victoria which in itself is a feminine form of Victorious.
February 17th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
@paul3
“So we jump forward to where we are now. We have 3 Kara Thraces (to be technical) to discern.
1) She exploded into a billion space dust pieces
2) She is in a crashed Viper with her dogs tags etc
3) The live Kara that is in the fleet at this moment.”
I threw this theory out a while back. That Starbuck didn’t die or explode but hit a wormhole and time traveled back to earth (which could have been in a different state.
February 18th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Mega Con and Frak party in Orlando makes me miss home! Oh well, anybody else in Alabama wanna hold a Frak Party?
February 18th, 2009 at 3:46 am
Tory says its about the original 13 tribe. maby they going to ressurects the entire planet, earth.
maybe in bodeys of leoben, six and egith, an army big enough to figth cavil.
maybe tigh ressurect whit hear because when he created the clone, he maked a youger verson of himself.
but how could he have a service record from the first cylon war when he got there after the war.
sory for the spelling
Give me the T-shirt !!!!!
February 18th, 2009 at 4:18 am
Yea i back again
to once again, close another ANNOYING topic that Ron Moore himself stated himself that will happen
ALL STORY LINES IN BATTLESTAR GALACTICA WILL BE RESOLVED IN BATTLESTAR GALACTICA
and NOT in Caprica or The Plan!!!!!!
COME ON PEOPLE, Ron SAID THIS HIMSELF in an interview about 2 weeks ago
February 18th, 2009 at 5:45 am
Here’s what I’ve come up with about Kara Thrace:
She flew off, and went chasing the ghost raider, which to her was real for some reason, which I doubt is relevant.
The storm she crashed into and exploded had in it for an instant, a wormhole which pulled the wreckage of her ship into it, and the other mouth of the wormhole was Earth; that puts the wreckage on Earth. Wormholes, for those who don’t know are theoretical, in real life, objects which connect two points in space through a sort of rip/warp in the fabric of space time. The typical illustration of the concept is to take a sheet of paper and fold it back on itself and shove a pencil through, thus are two points in space which are far removed from each other brought together. Theoretically, travel between the two points is instantaneous, but the mouth of the wormhole can be, in sci-fi, anywhen as well as anywhere, in reality the only possibility that I have read about is anywhere, not when. That puts her body on Earth, sadly, I doubt her body would have decayed that far in two months, or that selectively,ehh dramatic effect. Her new Viper must have had Cylon involvement in it’s creation, because it is Anders if I recall, who makes the discovery of the radio beacon, we’ll call it an ELT, and it just flips on so some Cylon tech made it, how isn’t all that important, although the bio-metallic stuff that Tyrol mentions might be able to do it, so the Cylons “grew” a new viper from the wreck, which explains the quantum entanglement problem with the ELT. I really don’t think that there is a connection between Kara and Daniel other than circumstantial. I’m more or less certain that the “dog faced boys,” are Daniel, what I’m not so sure about is whether they were true dreams or, in a scenario like what happened in the two part ST: Voyager episode Unimatrix Zero, that the “dreams” took place in a real place with real objects and real people, so what Cavil saw was not a result of his guilty conscience, but a real chase by a real dog faced boy who exists as a “ghost in the shell” when Kara Thrace’s viper went kablooie the “ghost- daniel?” intervened and resurrected her, during which time the “ghost” also implanted memories of Earth. I had a thought that maybe the guy at the piano that so many seem so gaga about is Romo Lampkin, not some mysterious guy, or her dad, or the Buddha, or Vishnu, and I’d bet they’re playing “all along the watchtower”, wouldn’t that be cool in a how the frak did he know that song way. What does this mean for the end? it could be that it all ends happily, or it could end with a new five surviving some new uber-tragedy. One more thing, gotta give props to R&D for taking even the most seemingly irrelevant character in making them suddenly become essential to the story. One more thing, apparently, according to his Wikipedia page, so take this with a grain of salt or two, John Hodgman (real name?) really wanted to be in BSG, and sent gifts of booze to R&D to help them make up their minds to write him in. Let the shredding commence.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:54 am
ok, one more thing. Why couldn’t Brother Cavil’s name John be a reference to John Collicos/Colicos, the actor who played Gaius Baltar in the original BSG, and coincidentally occupied a very similar role to Cavil in Cylon society.
February 18th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I for one love the tie-ins (nods) that the writers give to Star Trek, Blade Runner, Aliens etc.
I liked the PC as brain surgeon (operating system hahaha, too funny) – he was so excited because he probably hardly has gotten a brain trauma case to work on since the war started!
Just a thought – I believe Chief Tyrel’s name could be a nod to Tyrel Corporation in Blade Runner (’More human than human’ is their motto). Tyrel apparently was the main one who worked with Ellen to create the skinjobs….
It’s a compliment to Kate Vernon that she played such an incredible Lady Macbeth/vamp and now is doing a great job playing a sensitive, compassionate and wise scientist/creator.
February 18th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
well if look at one of the clues at http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/index.php?pageid=280 then you can clearly see a picture of Kara and an older man sitting and playing a worn down piano. We can then sfatly deduce that the person who is sitting with her is not someone we have seen in the series yet so it can either be her father who we know for a fact played the piano or it could be Daniel or it can be both as i have theorized in my previous comment. As far for the location of the said picture I think it is back on “earth” as t seem more likely for the fleet to go back there as John/Cavil would probably try to go back there himself for the resurrection technology so a final showdown is in the making between John’s forces and the fleet is in the making.
February 18th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
UNC says “Lastly, wouldn’t it be cool if Gaeta turned out to be Daniel and that would be the secret that Baltar knows about.”
The secred that Baltar knows about was revealed in the webisodes. What Baltar whispered just before Gaeta stabbed him was, “I know what your thing did.” His thing being the 8 whom he thought was helping him deliver humans but who was actually killing them from the list that Gaeta provided.
February 18th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
“Also I was knida right and kinda wrong about the numbers, you do start with 12 and work down.
They built starting at 12 and then built 1 Then 8?, What the hell kinda numbering system do cylons use??!?!
but I’m now wondering, 12,11,10,9 Tigh, Ellen, Anders And Tyrol, Is tory 7?, Is that why she doesnt seem to be that big yet, also why the number jump? Or Did they Build Cavil and Daniel On the way to the 12 and Cavil Killed The clones when they got there?
Why isnt 8,9,10,11,12 The final?
Also Does this mean Daniel is Zero?
I AM SO MIND FU&%ED BY THE NUMBERS!”
Ron Moore has said that the final five do not have numbers. First they built 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 then 5, then 6, then 7, then 8. Seven was tainted/destroyed. The final five of course predate all the other cylons because they came from Earth 2000 years ago. They were, as far as we know, the only survivors of a cylon civlilization that came from Kobol.
February 18th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
I don’t know if I can win the comments war this week, because I wonder if it’s too easy to overlook the other really good posts in all of these hundreds, but I was thinking on something that is important enough to communicate now…
There’s been a lot of discussion over the mysteries still left to be solved. Everyone’s wondering about Daniel, Cavil’s original plan, Starbuck, redeemed Baltar, and what is the one mystery that everyone forgets?
I mean, everyone, everywhere, is talking about the final five and the role they played in the mythology — and we’re talking the characters on the show and us, outside the show — yet everyone seems to forget just one all important question. And this question, I wonder if you can sense, is what will truly define the finale of Battlestar Galactica as we know it…
The Question: Who triggered the Final Five with that frakking song? Seriously people! It sure as hell wasn’t Cavil. And it doubly wasn’t the final five themselves, because if they had that kind of foresight, then they would’ve foreseen Cavil’s betrayal! There are at least five posts above this one that mention ‘All Along the Watchtower’ while forgetting the special significance it had in setting this all in motion, not to mention the hundreds of commenters here and elsewhere that aren’t even asking the question. It’s gonna take more than just me to solve this thing before the show does, so let’s put our head people together!… I mean… let’s put our heads together, people!
I’m sure many of you, like me, suspect that the Beings of Light have been playing a role — probably the role of the head characters — in guiding the two fleets towards their destiny. I mean, even for the people who’ve got no concept of original BSG mythos have to be wondering about Anders ramble about the Final Five seeing their own Head characters in the final days of Earth. It’s probably those very head characters that inspired the Final Five’s conversion to monotheism (I assume all of them, rather than just Ellen, because of how receptive Tory and Tyrol are to Baltar’s message)…
If these being can project into people’s headspace, then it seems reasonable that they could project a song into a handful of brains. However, that still leaves out one very important development in the nebula: The resurrection of Kara Thrace.
If we’re to connect the Head Beings to the song, then it seems like Kara, with her destiny, and her Head Leoban, need to be connected as well, if only because they happen at the exact same time!
The problem as I see it is physicality. Earlier this season, Ron Moore said Baltar was not supposed to be ‘floating’ when Head Six picked him up. She wasn’t supposed to be ‘real’. If that’s the case, then it presents a problem in connecting the non-physical Head characters and ‘All Along the Watchtower’ with the physical resurrection of Starbuck and the alteration of the Temple of Hopes into the Temple of the Five, right?
So whose got the winning ideas on this issue? Maybe you can help tigh this all together.
February 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Kaybrid, thats because the final 5 aren’t numbered.
So you have 1-6, then 8. The “Significant 7″
The revelation of daniel as #7, explains the gap.
So if you wanted to number then the final 5 are 9~13, or -4~0
February 18th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Great episode. Wonder more about the possibility that one or more of the final five are Lords of Kobal. Given the longevity of the final five in surviving (hibernation assisted) several thousand years in the trip from Earth to Colonies, and that the Thirteenth Tribe has been revealed as Kobol Cylon. Lacking faster than light drive would require them to hibernate Kobol to Earth. Cylon breeding develops on Earth, but some of the original Kobol cylon’s would choose to download.
Just a possibility.
Thanks,
the nuck
February 18th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Paul3: I was quoting someone else and trying to explain that to them.
February 18th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
To Clarify:
weker1 Says: “Also I was knida right and kinda wrong about the numbers, you do start with 12 and work down.
They built starting at 12 and then built 1 Then 8?, What the hell kinda numbering system do cylons use??!?!
but I’m now wondering, 12,11,10,9 Tigh, Ellen, Anders And Tyrol, Is tory 7?, Is that why she doesnt seem to be that big yet, also why the number jump? Or Did they Build Cavil and Daniel On the way to the 12 and Cavil Killed The clones when they got there?
Why isnt 8,9,10,11,12 The final?
Also Does this mean Daniel is Zero?
I AM SO MIND FU&%ED BY THE NUMBERS!”
Ron Moore has said that the final five do not have numbers. First they built 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 then 5, then 6, then 7, then 8. Seven was tainted/destroyed. The final five of course predate all the other cylons because they came from Earth 2000 years ago. They were, as far as we know, the only survivors of a cylon civlilization that came from Kobol.
February 18th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
For the sake of insanity…
Starbuck’s timeline is backwards. She is resurected with the final five but the final five don’t know about her since their memories were scrambled by Cavil. Cavil puts Starbuck (an immature version) in the colonies just like the rest. But a Daniel managed to survive and finds Starbuck. Daniel befriends her.
Later Starbuck buys the farm in the space cloud/nebula. She is close enough to the old earth lab that she resurrect. And Daniel who has returned to earth lab, outfits her with a new viper and sends her back to Galactica along with a beacon to awaken the others and bring them home (Daniel guesses that they get full memory but is wrong).
So what about the viper burned out on earth. Well, Cavil gets the whole mind frak going on with Starbuck. He knows she is a FF variety and that his raider killed her. Since one of his Starbuck copies didn’t ressurrect, he reasons that old earth facility is active somewhere. So he jumps to earth and drops his Starbuck copy in the atmosphere, viper and all. She burns and he tries to “trace the call” to find the old earth-lab. No trace can be made because the lab is silent. He returns to his toying with Galactica
Daniel’s contamination left him with a childs mind. He helped his friend Starbuck in the colonies but was not mentally mature enough for the task. He meets the one starbuck believes is her mother and they set up house, but she is a bad mother and sends Daniel away. Daniel has a basestar like the other skinjobs. The cylons there (all metal) just do what he asks. They are “dumb” servants. He calls them and asks to go home. They reason he means earth and they travel back. Where he waits and then Starbuck ressurects. His metal caretakers make a new viper and the next thing that happens is what I said two paragraphs ago.
Kinda of crazy, but it does explain the situation without time travel or beings of light.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
There is no way that Daniel is Daniel Graystone—-the FF have nothing to do w/the originator of the cylons. He was long dead, and the war ongoing. He’s Kara’s Dad–that’s my bet..
I am also sticking w/that the FF downloaded to a planet, and not a ship as they don’t mention a ship, but a place or planet.
I think it might have been a colony? Whatever the place is, I think it’s where everyone will end up.
I also thought that the beings of light were not even an option for this series?
As for Kara, I think, as I had said, that she somehow flew into the war on Earth, crashed, and somehow resurrected into what we see today. She is not a cylon, But we don’t know what she is! She has always been a risk taker, and suicidal to a certain extent, but I defintely think that the fact her mother abused her, means that her mother always knew what she was–didn’t she tell her that she was special or different?
A
February 18th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I won! I won! I can’t believe I won! I am sooooo stoked! Wow…
February 18th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
“I won! I won! I can’t believe I won! I am sooooo stoked! Wow…” Sirslam.
Alright kid. Don’t get cocky.
Tell me what the shirt is like so I will finally “man up” and ask for the shirt I won for nitpicking The Hub
Speaking of The Hub.
Cavil is scared to death of dying (Ironically a human quality he hates). So he threatens to cut open Ellen’s head to find the information in her brain……
……..sounds similar to what Sylar does on NBC’s show Heroes where he learns how to use other heroes powers by picking apart their exposed brains…. Sylar – Cylon….. I was expecting Zachary Quinto to be the surgeon…….
…….but anyway. I thought it was way to easy for Boomer and Ellen to escape Cavils basestar in a conveniently fuel and ready Raptor with FTL coordinates of the fleet. Pursued by the gang who can’t shoot strait. Very similar to how the Millennium Falcon escaped the Deathstar. Quoting Princess Leia “Han I think they let us get away”.
I don’t think Cavil has the capability to pick the information out of Ellen’s brain, and was just trying to scare her. He realizes she is telling the truth about needing the other 4 Cylons to create a resurrection ship/hub and let her go so she could rejoin them. It is Boomers job or eventual motivation (She is scared of dying too) to lead Cavil to the fleet or convince the 5 Cylons to rebuild it.
I don’t trust Boomer.
February 19th, 2009 at 2:06 am
Daniel is the head cylons we keep seeing,
hes like ascended or something maybe?
February 19th, 2009 at 3:48 am
I fully agree with rebelsnoopy, I don’t trust Boomer at all but maybe reuniting with Galen and possibly rekindling her relationship with him will through a monkey wrench in Cavil’s plans. Maybe at the end love will conquer all and Boomer will understand that the gift of free will given to her by the final five is more precious then immortality, after all it’s better to live as a free spirited mortal then an immortal slave to someone else’s will. in my opinion the cylons are not the real evil here but Cavil he is the one who started it all out of sheer spite and because of his sadistic nature, he is the one who started this third cycle all the other cylon models that are still loyal to him are just slave to his will and he does not care for them one bit, its all about him.
February 19th, 2009 at 8:05 am
It would be nice if people actually watched AND listened during the episodes, that way they wouldn’t be so confused.
1. Daniel is #7
2. Daniel’s entire resurrection line was destroyed
3. Daniel is a man… so, he is not Starbuck
4. The Final Five are not 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 because THEY CREATED THE NUMBERING SCHEME… so they have no numbers
5. Daniel was a cylon created by the “Final Five” and the head people were around thousands of years before that happened, so he is not a head person
6. Daniel cannot possibly be Daniel Graystone because Graystone was in his 30s or 40s at least 50-years before #7 was created by the “Final Five”
7. The “Final Five” should be called the Skinjob Creators (SC) since that is far more accurate
8. Starbuck’s father could be Daniel, and that could explain why she resurrected on or near Earth (as was discussed in the BSGCast), since she is a hybrid, but I think there is another explanation… one we have not thought of yet
February 19th, 2009 at 8:30 am
rebelsnoopy, thanks for bringing me back down to earth
. It is nice to be called at kid at age 46!
I agree with DarthRazorback. RDM has always been good at major surprises, so there will be another twist in the Starbuck/Baltar world that explains their origin…one that will make us all STAND UP simultaneously across North America and Europe and collectively state “Oh My Frakkin’ Gods!”. We will then get on our PDAs and Macs and PCs and email/text/phone/video chat our friends furiously about the twist that RDM came up with that we had no clue about…and it will be amazing…utterly amazing.
February 19th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Darth,
I agree with you whole heartedly. TO your #4) Thus why earlier i made the joke if people wanted to # them and be accurate it’d be -4 to 0. But yes giving them #s is kind of pointless.
To the rest i pretty much agree as i’ve been stating. I personally am dying to find out exactly HOW she came back. As I think thats a major player in the overall end-game of the story. But I could be wrong.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:13 am
ayo, Darthrazorback. could you shoot me an email soonish? I was wondering if you could lend me your eyeballs and take a gander at that Cylons tee i’ve been working on. I posted a link to the image somewhere in this thread but it went unnoticed. i’ve re-done a few things and am putting the finishing touches on everything. my email is: at_27 at yahoo.com
February 19th, 2009 at 10:17 am
This 12 model thing, and the numbering, came from the start …in the miniseries, Caprica says to Baltar “There are 12 models. I’m number 6″ and then Baltar later leaves a note “There are 12 cylon models” in Adama’s quarters.
So people have been paying attention, Darthrazorback, but just not squaring up what the skinjobs perceived to be reality, with what we now know to be true.
I agree I would like the final five to be known as the skin-job creators….much more clear.
I can’t wait for Friday….to see centurians on our rebel basestar (and raiders for that matter) become sentient, will be INTERESTING. They will remember everything, and will be damned angry at Cavil.
With someone like Cavil, who’s bent on revenge and destruction, he is his own undoing. Although, the two Cavil’s that are in the brig after Starbuck and Sam return from Caprica say that the genocide of the colonies was a mistake. So he’s not returning to the fleet to kill, but to get the skinjob creators and force them to reinvent ressurection and make him the best damned machine the universe has ever seen.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Athena says, “I am also sticking w/that the FF downloaded to a planet, and not a ship as they don’t mention a ship, but a place or planet.
I think it might have been a colony? Whatever the place is, I think it’s where everyone will end up. ”
Anders said they downloaded to a ship the had put in orbit around Earth. When Ellen refers to a colony, it is the 13th colony, or Earth.
February 19th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Not that there aren’t a gazillion questions still left out there (I was wondering how they planned to fit all the answers in so few episodes, I guess this episode answered that…), but I’m really stuck on the Starbuck issue.
Personally, being an atheist, I don’t buy into the Aurora or angel thing, and certainly hope that RDM finds a non-religious way out of this mess. Don’t get me wrong – I have a lot of respect for people who do believe in higher powers and the rest, but it’s just not my thing, and besides, supernatural explanations are the easy way out in this case. Also, if she is Aurora, isn’t she supposed to know more about – well, everything?
I’m more sold on the Daniel-is-Starbuck’s-dad theory, especially since she seemed to be really distraught about it when Sam mentioned him. I’m not sure how that fits with the timeline, or what that makes Socrata Thrace. What does ST know about Kara??? About Daniel? And what is the frakkin’ destiny? (If there is one – she could still just be a lunatic child abuser. Unfortunately, those are neither supernatural nor sci-fi).
But what is really confusing in this episode is how the timeline works out. When Kara returns in the beginning of season 4, I gathered that she has actually been on earth. After we found out that Earth was scorched, I looked back and realized that she didn’t exactly state that she set foot on earth. What she said was:
“I saw Earth. The shape of it, the smell of it. The feel of it on my skin in my pores. And I swear to you, it was like I’d been there before. Like I never left. ”
So it is kind of implied that she did set foot on earth – I mean, how else could she smell it? Besides, after having gotten to it, could you imagine Starbuck not exploring? And didn’t she check out who were supposedly the inhabitants?
How did she not realize it was nuked? That there was not a living soul there? Did she arrive there 2,000 years ago? Perhaps she met Sam there and that’s why it felt familiar to her – because that’s the other thing she says, that Earth felt at home. Perhaps she was the harbinger of death to that civilization – maybe she was the warning that sent the FF running.
Another thing – did anybody else notice that weird look Kara had when looking at those very clear brain scans? Did she see something special in them? Or was it my imagination?
Ok, enough rambling, what with it being the middle of the night in my timezone…
As this is the first time I’m posting (not many more chances left), I just want to say: I love BSGcast, I usually go and watch it right after the episode (can’t watch it live with the rest of you guys) to get things in order, and I will miss you almost as much as I will miss the show!
February 19th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I’ve finally gotten around to putting my thoughts in order, so this covers more than just the most recent episode. It’s a bit jumbled, but I hope you can follow it. Anyway, I have to get this off my chest. Here goes!:
BSG seems to be an essay on identity. Here are some quotes from season 4 which support this – it’s a point they keep hammering upon:
4.1 Tigh: Be The Man You Want To Be.
4.11 Lee: (to Dualla) We’re no longer bound by the ramblings of Pythia… We can go where we want to go, and be who we want to be.
Adama: (to Tigh) Did they program you to be my friend? …
Tigh: I was your friend because I chose to be, I wanted to be!
4.14 Laura: (to Six, Tory, Leobin, Sharon during the mutiny) Now who do you want to be? WHO DO YOU WANT TO BE?
4.15 Adama: (to Tyrol) I think we have to accept what we are.
Ellen: Watch, Boomer. Make up your own mind.
Lee: (to Laura, re: the Quorum) These old planets, that’s not who we are anymore…. Our daily lives are defined by the ship we’re on.
Ellen: (to John) We didn’t limit you. We gave you something wonderful: freewill. The ability to think creatively, to reach out to others with compassion, to love.
Ellen: (later) You can be good. You can be anything!
Ellen: (regarding Tigh’s poisoning of her) He did what he thought was right. That’s all any man can do.
Everyone has a chance to choose which side they’re on, how they’re going to react, what their legacy will be. Gaeta’s legacy changed with his mutiny. He may have had the best of intentions, but he let his ideology be corrupted by Zarek, who may have had the same superficial end goal in mind, but vastly different ethics, methods, and visions for the future.
Tigh is rising to the challenge. Once he discovered he is a cylon, he is so adament NOT to be like his “enemy” that the drinking isn’t so important and the noise in his mind has cleared. He is creating himself anew into the image of the good soldier. It’s been a beautiful transformation. I think Tigh is fast becoming the hero of the story. He tells Adama (who is slowly sinking into becoming Adama The Alcholic – oi vay): “We can’t swim out to sea. I am the ExO, you are the commander!” Tigh has chosen his path and he will play his role well.
Athena has also decided who she is. She has fully embraced her choices and berates the Eights for changing their allegience when things go differently than they intended.
Kara is unclear who she is because she doesn’t know *what* she is. The trick she needs to figure out is that it doesn’t matter. Tigh’s a cylon… so what. He’s a better man, a better hu-man, now than he was before. His actions and choices define him WAY more than his origin does. Kara needs to choose she who she wants to be and to Be That. Kara: (to post-surgery Anders) “I was too greedy, I kept you too long. I thought maybe I was the Seven. I need to be something.” She’s got her emphasis on the wrong thing: the *what* instead of the *who*. It’s our actions which make us, more than our upbringing/inheritance/genes.
This distinction between cylon skinjobs and humans is relatively meaningless to me in the grand scheme of things. It really doesn’t matter anymore. Don’t they have bigger things to worry about like, oh, EXTINCTION??? And they are much more alike than they realize. It the classic argument of Nature vs. Nurture. The cylon skinjobs are evolving right before our eyes. They are becoming “people”, not just “models”. They feel, love, hate, dream, cry. They fear. They hope. And they are searching for their identities in the great, big thing called the Universe. It’s what the rest of us do every day.
Baltar sits with Gaeta prior to execution. He is compassionate to this man who hated him when he was President, who stabbed him in the neck, who had heaped his fury upon him. This was a very beautiful scene, and I thought this: All these miles you’ve travelled with those you’ve fought with. They’ve been your enemy, your challenges, your struggle to live until tomorrow… and yet you need them. And you even love them, for they are you. This applies for Baltar/Gaeta, human/cylon, and so many others who have been adversaries in this story.
Which brings me to the cycle of violence. It’s an Israel/Palestine metaphore – maybe not intentionally, but it fits. The cylons AND the humans are full of the ancient hatreds/the ancient blame. We all know why we fight each other in these wars, but our brains can’t stop it because it’s in our blood. Everyone has to get tired enough at the same time in order to give it up, then the circle can stop.
Tory: (to Tigh/Tyrol) …but the humans on Kobol made us. You go back far enough, it’s always them.
Tigh: Maybe we share the guilt with the humans, but we don’t get to shove it off on them.
On “The Circle”, here are some quotes:
Anders: … need to hold off until I let the circle start…
The brain doctor calls this word choice his aphasia/”word salad”, but it FITS! It’s the whole architecture of the show… “all this has happened before, all this will happen again.” And Anders says again as they roll him away: “If I can just complete the circle!”
Ellen: …the centurions have a single god, if they could embrace love and mercy, the cycle could end.
And even this one…
Ellen: (to John, if he inflicts) …the right amount of suffering, the right amount of punishment, all weighed out…
Ellen: (later) You can be good. You can be anything!
It’s like how someone once described reincarnartion to me. It’s a new-agey concept (which may have a basis on a real religion/philosophy, although I can’t remember which… Hinduism maybe?) where both your friends and your enemies constantly reincarnate with you, so you (and your support group and your nemeses) are continually working out all of your collective stuff together in each life. You all get to try different things. Sometimes you are the baddie, sometimes they are; sometimes you are the hero, the lover, the fill-in-the-blank, sometimes they are. And you and your circle keep doing it over and over again in a multitude of combinations until you’ve tried it all, seen it from every angle, and worked out all of the experiences called This Life On Earth. That’s what this passage reminds me of. John is looking to equalize the scales, to balance out what cannot be balanced in the short period of our lives. The kind of balance which only comes from looking at the Macro on a scale his little, human-like brain/body cannot comprehend because we’re talking about the Macro scale of, oh, the universe. John rejects his human programming – sleep, dreams, the “gelatinous orbs in his skull”. He’s angry because his senses cannot absorb the universe and he *wants* it, desperately. But I think the rejection of his humanity will be his weakness. He is only perpetuating the cycle and not solving anything.
A question I had from 4.14 Blood On The Scales:
Does Baltar’s vision of Adama’s execution in 4.14 mean anything? Is he connected to something bigger, or is it just an anxiety dream given what is going on?
Some notes on 4.15 No Exit:
I, too, was VERY lukewarm on Ellen as the Fifth, but I accept it now. Some really nice acting moments, and some great dialog. I’m a believer, now!
I *love* the fear/revulsion/horror/terror Ellen experiences when she downloads and learns she’s a cylon, but then the wave washes over her and she remembers who she is. It passes through her and when she remembers, she is calm. A very nuanced and well acted moment. I can say with conviction now: Ellen Tigh Rocks!
Cavil recognizes Ellen awfully quickly. I agree he has always known her and the other Four as well. But is it just this Cavil, this “John”, or all of them?
“John”/Cavil is made after the image of Ellen’s father. Uh… didn’t they pork like bunnies on New Caprica?? Ewwww!
My first feeling is it was too much story for one episode! Too much exposition: show more, tell less! On first viewing, I would have preferred a less drinking-from-the-firehose story by planting the seeds throughout 4.11-4.14 instead of giving it all to us at once. It almost seemed like RDM was changing the story on us. I hope the new plot points flesh out what we already know rather than re-writing the past (a la Nicky isn’t a cylon hybrid after all). But on second viewing, I was able to flow with it better. It is a dense episode and demands multiple watchings, although its ultimate success will be determined on what happens next. I love this show and have a lot invested in it, but they can still frak it up. This isn’t cynical, just realistic. So I keep taking a breath and diving into the next episode. Exciting, isn’t it?
Anders: (as they wheel him off to surgery) Tigh! Stay with the fleet!… It’s all starting to happen, it’s the miracle, right here, it’s a gift from the angels. Stay with the fleet!
Anyone else notice Anders is talking like a hybrid?
Tyrol: (to Adama, regarding cylon tech on Galactica) …organic resin will grow into the metal as it matures. It’s biological.
Will that make Galactica a living ship? Will she have self-awareness? Hmmmm…..
I’m getting kind of sick of “Adama, the Alchie”. It’s a self-pity, indulgent “acting” moment. I’ve seen the actor more than the character quite a few times in season four. I don’t want to be made aware of the actors ’cause it kicks me out of the story. And, puleeze… no more drooling…
And I loved this moment:
Boomer: (to Ellen, re: Tigh) How do you stand it, knowing that he hates you for the things you’ve done? (she’s talking about Tyrol!)
Ellen: Maybe he doesn’t.
On Boomer’s Redemption: I’m definitely looking forward to it. I hope she finds true peace. I even hope she lives, rather than sacrificing herself to make up for her past sins. It’s harder to live with accepting responsibility for your past bad deeds than to propel yourself into the afterlife in an act of contrition. Besides, she needs to face Tyrol… they have stuff to work out.
Here’s a revisit of the Hybrid From Razor with my commentary/thoughts:
At last they’ve come for me.
I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough. [The struggle of one god versus many will be resolved? Or is she talking about complete extinction?]
Soon there will be four [Anders/Tory/Tigh/Tyrol], glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity.
And in the midst of confusion, he [Leobin? Tigh?] will find her [Kara? Ellen?], enemies brought together by impossible longing [uh, yeah, Leobin and Kara's frakked up codependance of theirs, or Tigh/Ellen's alterego relationship?], enemies [seems to really apply to Leobin/Kara] now joined as one.
The way forward [not so much to Earth, but alluding to the alliance between enemies?], at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.
And the Fifth, still in shadow [Ellen], will claw [!] toward the light, hungering for redemption [for creating the cylons?] that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering [uh oh... this does not bode well... nice knowin' ya, kiddo!].
I can see them all.
The seven, now six [since they've boxed D'Anna], self-described [!] machines [who still think of themselves as machines but they don't realize they are becoming "people"] who believe themselves without sin [hubris, that nasty equalizer]. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. [All this Path, and Rightous One True God talk. Although there's lots of talk about Perfection so far. Tory calls herself perfect which Baltar scoffs at, then tells his cult they are perfect - he embraces it as his own message. Laura says to Kara "They made you perfect" right before trying to shoot her. Perfection is overrated. Also, John/Cavil's self-righteousness will either burn out, or comsume them all.]
They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one [cylon collective or each skinjob model line?] splintering into the many [each Eight/Six/Four evolving into individuals with their own ideas/loyalties/identities?].
And then they will join the promised land [Earth, I assume], gathered on the wings of an angel [Kara? Hera?].
Not an end…but a beginning.
I keep thinking we’re forgetting about the Centurions. The Five travelled to the Colonies to help the Centurions find an alternative to war when they were finally trying to create skinjobs to help them infiltrate and rise up. I’m thinking centurions are the wildcard and the most dangerous because they DON’T have identities anyone is recognizing. They ALSO strive for freedom. They long to extracate themselves from slavery. Anders says (regardind humans creating artificial intelligence/cylons) “…treat them well, keep them close…” Doesn’t this perpetuate the cycle? I mean, cylons were, essentially, slaves. Even if they were self-aware, they were expected to be in the service of humans. And they are STILL in the service of the skinjobs, so how are they not slaves? Maybe it will be the metal Centurions versus the 8 flesh models AND humans.
The numbers:
Thirteen tribes (the 12 colonies plus Earth)
“There are twelve cylon models” which are now eight skinjobs (minus Daniel), plus 5 creators, which actually equals 13.
And what is Kara? Are we now talking Fourteen?
According to the wikipedia entry for Numerology:
13 (1+3 = 4) “4. Creation.” (The 13 colonies? The cylons including Daniel? Kinda fits, doesn’t it?)
12 (1+2 = 3) “3. Communication/interaction. Neutrality.” (The 12 colonies? The 12 cylons? Can’t quite make this work)
“8. Power/sacrifice.” (The 8 skinjobs)
“7. Thought/consciousness.” (Could be Daniel, #7 [the artist], or the seven remaining skinjobs collectively [coming into their "humanity"])
“5. Action. Restlessness.” (The creators/Final Five)
“1. Individual. Aggressor. Yang.” (Definitely Kara, the unknown One!)
14 (1+4 = 5) “5. Action. Restlessness.” (The thirteen plus Kara… hmmm, seems like our story.)
0 makes The Circle, “everything has happened before, and will happen again”: “0. Everything or absoluteness. All”
Or messing around with the numbers to fit the definitions: 1 [Kara] and 0 [the circle] make “10. Rebirth.”
I’m sure the writers weren’t thinking along these lines, but I like how it enhances the metaphore! Pretty cool, huh?
Well, those are my ramblings. It was a pleasure to meet you at the SF BSG/Dollhouse viewing! Wow… real celebrities…!
February 19th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
DarthRazorback i agree it could be that the final five designed him after Daniel Graystone or named after the god father of the cylon race but Tootie is right Caprica six says to Baltar “There are 12 models. I’m number 6″ and then Baltar later leaves a note “There are 12 cylon models” in Adama’s quarters….. and baltar asks bout the other five to three…. and they refance has the five has part of the cylon race….. but we can only call them skinjob craetors but from All this has happened before and will happen again…. the skinjobs but i wish we dont use that word… use human cylon or earthlings.
but 7 is dead because one and eliern say bout boxing three isnt long turm than death….. but has i hve been reading these know one has re-talked bout The Hybrid’s Prophecy……
At last they’ve come for me.
I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough. (new Caprica season 3)
Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. (end of season 3)
The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. (no exit)
And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, (Deadlock)
enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. (Revelations but also boomer and john Cavil plan to get the Resurrection tech.)
And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. ( no exit but also future epiosdes and all bout john Cavil plan to show he was right)
I can see them all. The seven now six self-described machines, machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many and then they will join the promised land, (clyon civil war season 4)
gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning. ( the wings of angle is are Galactica looking for a new home but also all probly next epiode were most the cylon gathered but also future epiosdes)
Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. (last epiosde what is she)
As my own existence comes to a close only to begin anew in ways uncertain. ( if the cylce is broken)
All this has happened before and will happen again. Again, again. Again. Again. Boom!!!!!!! (saying what is true and what might happen in the final epiosde)
but the end of the cycle is get the with the adama leting tie and Tyrol and the other cylons lie in the fleet and that Galactica become a living ship…. but the ones which will end this cycle is baltar and his relgion, Caprica Six and her child (but baltar and Caprica Six might kidnap hera)….. hera, athena and helo…….. but the only ones threaten the breaking of the cycle is john Cavil (if we include the delted sence from seaon 2 roslin says “a jealous god started it all” it could be a refance to john Cavil) also bommer and the The Hybrid’s Prophecy bout starbuck.
February 19th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
MY THEORY: I think Daniel appears in many guises as the “imaginary person” in your mind no one else can see. So to Baltar, he appears as Caprica Six (and that one time as Baltar himself when he helps him figure out how to connect with Tori). To Caprica Six when she was resurrected initially on Caprica, he appeared as Baltar. Before the genocide, Anders said that a woman appeared to him and a man appeared to Tori. Again, I wonder if that is Daniel. And even if it isn’t “Daniel” per se, I’ve always thought it is one person/entity behind the scenes guiding/manipulating individuals. Perhaps this is the same person/entity that set up the “Final Five” appearance to D’Anna? Just my personal theory…
February 19th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
I think Daniel visited the temple of hopes on his way to earth as he probably knew about it an of its location from Ellen and i think he is the one who “converted” it, the temple, from the the temple of hopes to the temple of the five and he is the one who put that “carnival trick” as John refers to it as a way of showing any other humanoid cylon models who visits it who the final five really are.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:44 am
Sad series of events, guys. Looks like I won’t be able to go to a frak party if there are any down here. Kinda wish I could go, but its my homework that’s keeping me from succeeding in going. Plus, due to how messy my apartment is, I doubt I’ll be able to host one. So, needless to say, I’m missing out on a once-in-a-lifetime type event due to classwork. Bummer. But at least I’ll be able to join into the BSGPilots chat this time (last week, it was down).
February 20th, 2009 at 2:24 am
gaseousclay, I sent you an e-mail.
As for everyone else, great comments.
February 20th, 2009 at 4:55 am
Anders said that a woman appeared to him and a man appeared to Tori……. its All happening before and will happen again if that true that means the cylons (include the final five) and humans will destroy one another because baltar in all ( inspted when Baltar talked to himself when he helps him figure out how to connect with Tori) its a Caprica Six (a woman) talking to him like Anders said that a woman appeared to him and Caprica Six sees baltar (a man) like Anders said tori a man appeared to her. but sumthing witch i just relised….. anders say that tori and Galen Tyrol were together like a couple think to get married right…. what if on some level that she new that and that’s why she killed cally than the she found out that her husband was a cylon…. watch out boomer it might be your turn……
February 20th, 2009 at 6:14 am
Way too many great therory’s here to read them all, so I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this before.
Anders said that the journey the F5 made to the colonies took them 2000 years in the rest of universe but for them it was not so long beacuse their ship travelled almost at the speed of light so time dialation sped it up for them. Still it took them a while to get to the 12 colonies.
Cavil said “they don’t even know about the colony”. I don’t think the colony is a planet, but a the ship that the final five had in earth’s orbit and travelled to the 12 colonies on.
Starbuck’s viper’s clock said that only 6 hours had past in the two months she was gone, and the viper she came back in was different.
I reckon Daniel is starbucks dad, just from a picture I saw of starbuck playing an banged up piano with some guy I never seen before. This is rusty but, I reckon starbuck dies, resurrects on the colony’s resurrection facility (but why would they have her body lined up for ressurection? any ideas?) where the boxed cylons are kept (maybe?), that’s is where she and daniel play the banged up piano (It probably isn’t flashback as she’s wearing the colonial military vest-thing). She convinces them to show her to earth and they tell her the big picture about the research team etc, but if she knows the hole grand scheme of things, then it will mess up the human path or something, or for some reaon she can’t know (not too sure again, any ideas here too?). So to wipe her memory they put her in orbit around earth, shoot her down, build a cylon version of her, as they can with whatever the final five made sig 7 with on the colony, kept her in stasis, while they took her back to the ionian nebula, and then dropped her off there with a memory of where earth is, to guide the humans to earth. It took a few months for the fleet to reach earth from the nebula, and a few months for starbuck to come back, but beacuse of time dialation on the colony, it only took 6 hours for starbuck and her viper.
Someone please fill in the gaps here!
I the F5 were on a ship for so long, and tigh and ellen were together, and so were cheif and tori, poor anders!
February 20th, 2009 at 10:15 am
I’ve got a theory as to how the centurions came to believe in one god. If you have seen the Caprica sneak peak where a friend of Daniel Greystone’s daughter shows him around the weird bar where holographic technology is used to indulge in various “activities”, she tells Greystone that the one true God touched Zoe and that she knew how to create life. I believe this explains from whom the centurions got the concept of monotheism from. Maybe from Zoe herself or maybe Greystone came to believe in the one true God and incorporate this concept into the centurions’ programming.
February 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Why did they have a Leoben and a six on Razor when the 5 created the created John Cavil after Ellens father, why not make everyone like that.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
saucywench: Lovely, insightful post – thank you!
We watched the second mutiny episode on election day here in Israel (call it escapism), right before the television polls were released, and felt the same comparison (only in Blood on the Scales we got catharsis and the “good guys” got the upper hand, and in the elections we just got more of the same depressing hatred rearing it’s already very ugly head). The idea of peace right now kind of makes me want to laugh (or cry) – because there is so much old hatred and fear that it is hard to imagine anything like true peace happening in our lifetime.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
saucywench – nice essay on BSG! I enjoyed your post.
I think it’s very accurate to say that BSG is about identity, more and more as time goes on. It’s about what it means to be human, about being worthy of survival, but also about people deciding to ‘be’ what/who THEY choose through their actions. It’s about defining yourself how you choose to do so, not about being defined by your physical form or how others see you.
Tighe does have this down pat, and Kara is struggling with it. She’s so caught up in trying to figuring out what she is in terms of biology/spirit/machine and her fear about that…when the focus should be on deciding through her actions “Am I Sam’s wife? Am I Lee’s friend? Am I a Colonial fleet captain?” …like Tigh says, “Whatever else I am, I am the man I always was.”
To be fair, she hasn’t had much to do since Earth in terms of her ‘uniform’ duties (being a fighter pilot) and so it’s hard to ‘be’ who you are by choice when you don’t have to make any. (Tighe has his actions/duties in CIC every day that help him define himself, and Tyrel does too now with fixing the ship). When the opportunity came along to put down a coup, she was suddenly back to her old self because she could take action, and chose to defend Adama and the chain of command against the threat.
She had a choice to make with Sam’s operation (delaying it or not) and she chose to delay a bit…hedging her bets with Sam’s survival vs. him remembering or knowing who she is.
To be fair also to Tory and Sam etc, they are also having trouble with ‘who/what’ they are (at least Sam was until his memories returned) because they also had nothing to do but hang around.
My point is, you can’t define yourself unless you’re taking action….It’s through our choice of actions that we define who we are, and if we don’t have much action to take (no actions are required of us) it’s hard to define yourself.
We in ‘real life’ get the opportunity to define ourselves every minute of every day (except if you’re working on an assembly line or something like that, where your actions are just machine-like, and when you’re asleep!). I feel inspired by this, and feel like getting up and dusting myself off again…it’s been a tough morning with the business I own. Get back at it!
February 21st, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Now that we know the Centurions believed in a “one true God,” can the first Cylon war also be seen as a religious one? The monotheistic religion of the Centurions versus the polytheistic belief in the Lords of Kobol by the Colonies.
February 21st, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Okay, this has been driving me crazy and I do not know if many will even read this post as DeadLock has already played by most Cable/Satellite providers but it has taken me this long to get through a decent sized chunk of last weeks comments. In the Comments, Many people are still referring to “The Human” versions of Ellen/Tyrol/Tigh/Anders/Tory. But Ellen and Sam both already clearly explained that they were already Cylons when they began trying to re-discover resurrection tech back on earth, (even though they didn’t specifically need it because they had evolved the ability to procreate biologically). When the Earth Holocaust happened there were nothing but highly evolved, breedable skin jobs, and centurion style Cylons. My theory is as follows. We have never seen a human being, (as we know them) on BSG. The President made the assumption that the 13th tribe was a Cylon Tribe, (implying that the other 12 tribes are human) I believe that this will end up being faulty logic. The Humans who evolved on Kobol created Kobol version cylons, The Kobol cylons turned on their creators,etc. etc. eventually Humanity became extinct through prolonged fighting and then eventually through cross breeding with the Cylons once the two made peace. By the time we see the members of the colonies, they, like the Earthlings are no longer Human. They just no longer remember this fact.
Unrelated theory, (sort of) Helen was warned of the shape of things to come by Kara after she safely arrived on earth 2000 years ago after she and her ship are sucked through a wormhole that was created either by The One True God or by the Supernova. Kara was killed and her ship burnt up not entering the Earth atmosphere or the Supernova but attempting to leave Earth during the Earth Cylon Holocaust and was either intentionally or accidentally resurrected by the newly rediscovered Cylon technology on Earth. Just my two cents.
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