BSGcast: Razor DVD – The Hybrid’s Prophecy
Matt + Nat take on the most interesting and daunting part of the Extended Edition DVD of “Razor”: The Hybrid’s Prophecy… taking it line by line and dissecting the meaning, there is a LOT more there than you might think…
Next week we finish off our DVD Review by talking about the differences in the Extended Cut and the bonus features of the DVD!
Jim’s Transcription:
At last they’ve come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough.
Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all. The seven now six self-described machines, machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning.
Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. As my own existence comes to a close only to begin anew in ways uncertain. All this has happened before and will happen again. Again, again. Again. Again. Boom!!!!!!!
January 11th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
That was pretty rad, guys. I love this sort of analysis stuff and thought it was pretty interesting. I actually hadn’t gotten around to slowly going over the Hybrid’s lines on my own DVD, so thanks for doing the work for me!
January 11th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Hey Mat & Nat!
Just saw your Podcast, and the first person that came into my mind referring this line:
And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.
is Laura Roslin, Think of the cancer, I guess she´ll suffer a lot. As the dying leader, the redemption would be finding earth, I guess…
Thanx for your entertaining podcasts, Keep ´em comin´!
Greetings from Germany,
grillbox
January 11th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
i though that he will find her line was all about Lee and Kara….he finds her in the middle of the call to battle…battle is chaotic….kara is obviously important….its the first time Lees been mentioned in a prophecy i think and i like that cuz it seems like its about time!
January 11th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Also i figured the “ways unkown” was a sweet message of like his hopefullness…cuz hes not sure where hes going to go, not sure whoch religion is true and what heaven awaits him….hes kinda like a truely wise man who admits what he doesnt not know/ has control over. Which sets him apart from the other deluded cylons
January 12th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Frak, i wrote a great post but my computer stuffed up. Any way, First time poster, long time viewer. Love your show guys. Now i dont agree with everything you’ve speculated about the prophecy which i’ll attempt to retype as good as i did last time
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. “- Obviously the four of the final five. No agrument there, however;
“And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one.” –
Now ive read this differently in different sites and have a theory on that;
“And amidst confusion, you will find her… Enemies brought together by the apostle, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, once impenetrable, yet inevitable. “-
Enemies brought together, joined as one- sounds like the first of god’s new generation; Hera! She has been said to be the shape of things to come now for three seasons. And this seems even more likely now with the second line- that the two races shall join as one, once thought impossible. This is also backed up now by the fact we have our second Hybrid already; Nicholas. Even with the other version of the line this still works. The “he” could be refering to Baltar, the gaurdian of this new order, and the line after “her” describes Hera.
“And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.”-
but it think this is unlikely (even though your conncection of the prophecies description and baltar’s torture). Ronald D Moore has said before in podcast that Baltar is not a cylon and to make him one would take away from his character developement and remove his turmoil over his actions. I thought the torture scene has one big purpose- to prove Baltar is not one of the final five. He accepts it as the truth and Head-Six (who knows more than anyone else in the show) agrees. He isnt one of the final five, he is the chosen one. One possibility is that he is the 13th (13 colonies) who is the incarnation of the Cylon god, and like the final five is seperate from the other 7; they have a four thousand year old history and are strongly connected to the events on Kobol.
Now when i read this i too thought immediately of Baltar
Another theory, which also connects to the Chosen one, is he is the dieing leader. In the same episode that Roslin begins to make connections to the scrolls of Pethika (sorry about spelling) Head-six talks to Baltar about the scrolls and their truth’s in which Baltar replies he saw 12 vipers fly into the Cylon Base. This also connects to the messianic figure he is becoming; a saviour. Also it was Baltar who has been leading them to earth, he was the one charting and following the star charts and the scriptures and his actions have lead both Cylons and Humans closer to earth.
Its very possible Roslin could turn out to be the final cylon. Its cliched but isnt everything today?
it would still be amazing. She has shared dreams with Cylons (a good question not answered is did Baltar also share those dreams?), has had prophetic dreams which only cylons have seemed to have and its too coincidental in a show that has been so strongly rooted in reality at the beginning. It also connects to the other 4 of the final five who are extremely anti-cylon and even lead the resistance against them on New Caprica, and of the main characters she’s the most xenophobic (she’s a bit of a hypocrite in my opion). And for someone who strongly despises Cylons she had protected Hera, and even dreamed with Her, despite it.
“The seven now six self-described machines, machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many”
*****SPOILERS*****
).
I have read spoilers and rumors that have confirmed that the Centurions will be regaining their free will and rebelling against the humanoid Cylons; “one splintering into many”. It also connects to the fact that the HUmanoids have taken on the sins of the HUmans- they have enslaved and taken away the free will of cylons. This sin will result in an uprising of the metal cylons once again (”all this has happened before and will happen again”
****** end Spoilers*****
“and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning.”- NOW who has called themselves an Angel since the beginning of the show to lead Baltar on his destiny- HEAD SIX!!!!!! SHe has said many prophetic words that have come true time and again, and she is aware of events (even seems to control them) outside the control of the humans and even the cylons. And if im right about Baltar being the Dieing leader who will lead the ppl to earth, the chosen one, then it makes sence that his Angel (who is in the image of a cylon) would be the one to help
Kara Thrace is very unlikely to be the Angel if we are to accept the truth of the Hybrid’s prophecy: “Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. ” If humanity and Cylons are to join in Paradise it’s unlikely that the herald of the apocalypse is the one to do it. It is interesting to note that for the entire season one Baltar and Kara flirted with one another and even and sex. The two biggest ppl in the show with a destiny and they were together. Baltar even loved her for a while (which i wish we had more developement on).
Any way
that was my attempt at the prophecy, hope people will like it. See you next time BSGcast
January 12th, 2008 at 6:28 am
hey, you guys have seen this, right:
(spoilery clues from RDM)
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20169703,00.html
It tells us who isn’t the last Cylon.
As far as the prophecy goes, I was struck that Headsix is always saying she’s the “angel of god.” Given that, I figured Baltar is going to reunite the splintered cylons and lead them to earth. I think you’re dead on the Cylons are going to have a civil war, though.
January 12th, 2008 at 7:36 am
The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not Their own, will end soon enough.
- Is in reference tO the colonization of the world the fleet called New Caprica: the settlement/occupation/resistance and exodus
Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves.
- refers to Tigh, Tori, Sam, & Galen who either will or will not accept their true selves & what they choose to do
good or bad for future of the fleet
The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the Midst of confusion, he will find her.
- refers to the events of Eye of Jupitor, Rapture, Maelstrom, & Crossroads
Enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.
- Is implication that the 2 opposing races will become one
And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.
- The 5th & Final Cylon a debate which is causing mass debate & flaming on the characters being tossed around as said person are
not the final cylon. What should be asked instead is which of the supporting characters would best fit the portent voiced.
I can see them all. The seven now six self-described machines, machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many.
- Is reference to the 7 Cylon models – D’Anna have fallen into chaos & the revalation of another Cylon will lead to a 2nd revolt by the Cylon this time against their biological brethern
And then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning.
- refers to the 2 becoming one as one cycle ends & another begins
Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.
- is a dubious phrase but what I think the Hybrid is saying really is that by President Roslin & Admiral Adama not listening to her that
the 2 of them will be the cause for mankinds end.
January 12th, 2008 at 9:49 am
You guys should stop calling speculation over show’s mindfraks “spoilers”.
I think you’re wrong in your reading of ‘the fifth’ prophecy. Leaving aside all the reasons why Baltar is the worst possible candidate for a Cylon and why Baltar-the-Cylon would be the suckiest, jumpedthesharkest idea of all time that would ruin all the storylines connected to his character, wouldn’t bring absolutely anything to the show but would take away so much from it; do you believe the writers would spell it out for us before the start of season 4? I don’t believe that Hybrid’s speech refers to anything as literal as the torture scene; it’s more likely to be a metaphorical shadow and light, and it’s more likely that it will happen in season 4. And more importantly, it’s all just too obvious and naive. To me, this part of speech sounds like they really want us to suspect Baltar. (Kind of like they want us to wonder if Kara Thrace will destroy the human race after we see “Razor”. Or to wonder if she is a Cylon after we see “Crossroads II”.) So, people will first suspect Baltar, and overlook someone else who might turn out to have a reason to yearn for redemption for something as well. I don’t think it’s Starbuck either. It would also be too obvious at this point, and all other means to explain her return would be more interesting. I think it will be a supporting character, but they will use every opportunity to mindfrak the fans with “Is Starbuck a Cylon? Is Baltar a Cylon?”…(They’ve really been doing it with Baltar all the way – opening scene of “Downloaded”, previews with the resurrection tub scene from “Taking A Break From All Your Worries”.)
While I am sure who will NOT be the FC, I am not sure who it will be, but right now I am suspecting Gaeta. I was leaning towards Dee before “Razor”, but she doesn’t seem to me like she is hungering for redemption…although, you never know (and Michael Taylor has said that we’ll see Dee’s dark side in season 4!) There is no hard evidence, but he fits the basic conditions:
There is no hard evidence there. It’s simply the case that he fits the basic conditions.
- RDM (or was it one of the other writers, I don’t remember) has said that he had toyed with the idea of making the character a Cylon since season 1.
- RDM has never said that he would not make him a Cylon (which excludes Adama and Roslin).
- There is no particular reason why Gaeta being a Cylon would be far-fetched. We know nothing about his family (the big obstacle to making either of the Adamas a Cylon).
- Neither the series, nor his character would lose anything by making him a Cylon.
- Just like the other 4 Final Fivers, he’s close to power but never the leader in the Colonial military or government.
- He’s listed as one of the regular cast, he’s always been around, in the background, but rarely has had a prominent storyline (compared with Cally, Dee, Billy, or even Anders). He did have one or two in season 3, but there didn’t seem to be the end of it…It’s time they develop him more and give him more to do.
- We know thathe is going to be a prominent character in season 4. RDM said that there are “big things ahead for Gaeta in season 4″.
- He helped the Resistance on NC; 3 of the FF were the leaders of the Resistance, and Tory was helping them.
- He is not in the EW “Last Supper” photo.
- The Hybrid’s speech. As I said, Baltar =waaay too obvious, it seems like another red herring. And unresolved plot from season 3 (TABFLYW) suggested that Gaeta had a secret, something Baltar reminded him of or threatened to use against him, and it was apparently so terrible that Baltar judged it to be “worse than being a traitor”. Now, we know, of course, that this was a remnant of the scrapped Sagittarons storyline, and we know what it was all supposed to be about. However, while the storyline was removed, that bit in TABFAYW remained, and it could, and should be explained in another way. I can smell a nice bit of retconning coming up. No, I don’t think Baltar knew Gaeta was a Cylon – how would he? But I think that Gaeta’s secret, whatever it is, could be a reason for him to yearn for a redemption. Besides – the word “shadow” would have an additional meaning in his case, he really has been in the shadow for most of the series.
- Another possible interpretation of D’Anna apologizing in the Temple Of Five.People always assumed that she was apologizing to someone she had wronged in some way. I took that for granted for a while, and thought she was apologizing to Anders for trying to kill him on Caprica. But I’ve recently realized this: she was not necessarily apologizing for anything she had done to that person. When you think about what she actually said, it sounded more like she was just really astonished to see someone there, probably someone she knew well.
“You?!” (a look of surprise) “Forgive me… I had no idea”.
I think some people have actually speculated that her singling that person out meant she knew them better than the others. The Threes have certainly had a chance to meet Anders, Tigh, Tyrol and Tory – whether it was this particular Three or not – but casually and for a short time (even if the way she met Anders was very memorable, so to speak…). Some people thought that it meant it was Baltar, but if she had seen Baltar, she shouldn’t have been so surprised, because he had been talking to her about the Final Five all that time, he had told her that he was wondering if he was a Cylon, and asking her to remember if she had seen his face in her state between life and death. In fact, Baltar was the last person she would have been surprised to see. So, if she had seen Baltar, it would make more sense if she said something like “So it really is you!” Not a complete astonishment, as in “I never expected to see this person here! I never had the slightest idea they could be a FF!”
But it could be Gaeta, because the Cylons, and particularly those who were in the New Caprica occupation leadership (and the Three who went to the Temple of Five definitely was), saw him every day during those several months, he was even present at some of their meetings, so she would indeed be more familiar with him than Tigh, Tory, Chief or Anders. So she could be saying “You?! Forgive me…I had no idea” in the sense of “I can’t believe I saw this person every day and I never had the slightest idea what they were…Forgive me my ignorance.”
Besides…I was almost convinced he was a Cylon when I watched the miniseries, although I later abandoned the idea… it would feel good if my first hunch from the miniseries turned out to be right!
As for the rest of the prophecy; the part about the four is clear, and so is, I think, the part about the ’seven, now six’. “They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many” – I don’t think this has anything to do with polytheism (I think that the Cylons converting to polytheism and then getting all friendly with the Colonials would be an absurd and cheap resolution), it’s simply the process that has already started in seasons 2 and 3, but will probably reach its climax in season 4: Cylon society losing its homogenity, discord, different factions, Cylon-on-Cylon violence, and, in S4, maybe even a civil war. Conflicts arising both between and WITHIN models, the Cylons developing individuality (the splinterring of one into many – one basic ‘personality’ of a model splinterring into many individuals).
The most interesting part of the prophecy is the one about “in the midst of confusion, he will find her…” There have been many different candidates for he and she mentioned in different forums (including Cylon/human and Cylon/Cylon couples, and even presumably human/human), some of them seem more likely to me than others, but in any case, I think – and hope – that “enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable” refers to Cylons and Humans, and their joining together through Hera and the hybrid children (’the shape of things to come’). Anything else would be a huge disappointment to me; which means that I hope this does not refer to any F5Cylon/S7Cylon combinations, which would make the prophecy into nothing more than a joining of two factions of Cylons.
Finally, “the harbinger of death” prophecy could be taken in a lot of ways. I think this is, basically, just a big mindfrak to make people fear that Starbuck is going to lead the Colonials to destruction. But Hybrid speak tends to be ambiguous and tricky. He never said she will lead them to their extinction or destruction.
“Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end” might mean nothing more than “she will lead them to their destination” (Earth). Or it might mean the end of the human race as we know it? Maybe Humans and Cylons will eventually melt into one race.
“They must not follow her” might or might not be a warning to the human race; if he said “YOU must not follow her”, it would definitely sound like a direct warning. This way…it may be just a prophecy, it may have been a warning to someone else… It depends on from whose perspective the words were spoken.
“Apocalypse” literally means “Revelation”. A truth being unveiled. It’s interesting that the Final Five have also been linked to Apocalypse. The female Hybrid in season 3 described them as “The Five Lights of the Apocalypse rising, struggling towards the light… Sins revealed only to those who enter the Temple, only to the Chosen One…”
January 12th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
where can i start……..oooo yer, mmmm good opening again it felt like a tv show. okay ” And the fifth still in shadow,will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering” now when u said it could be batar ill looked at this theory and ther r holes in it, 1) in the miniseries which start this show u c baltar and six get it on, six had that red light going down her back, now to my knowagle cylons can not hve childern with each other, 2) it could be hybrid talk about himself 3) my money is on tom zarerk played by the orginal apollo and fits within the seirsis:-
1) All this has happened before and will happen again, which fits into the show because he has been in the series from the original so it fits he has been playing in bsg 4 alot.
2) at the end of season 3 all the 4 out 5 cylons r near power so that the last of the humans could be could be killed of 4 good just like that, but “And the fifth still in shadow” he is in the shadow of Roslin the leader he might try or does killer her be4 she gets to erath that would fit in “claw toward the light”. “hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering” he has done main sinful things and it could be at the end whats redemaption beacuse what he has done or what he will do.
“The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her” this is true because six and tigh in a trailer the kiss, but it could be a differnt six NOT Caprica-Six i say this becasue Tricia Helfer says ther will b a new verison of her called Natalie.
now this bit got me enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one:-
1) in the 1st trailer people split up William Adama, Laura Roslin, Athena, Helo vs Starbuck, Apollo, Leoben Conoy vs Baltar, Number Six vs nuber three. “joined as one” this was very hard to explain so if u dont get it i under stand becuse i really cant explain it right.
2) it could be the cylons and the humans “joined as one ” and it fits with in matts thoery.
now the bsgcast ther is a cylon civil war now this is true on humans side six, three, eight and Leoben Conoy. on the fineal five Samuel T. Anders, Galen Tyrol, Tory Foster, and Saul Tigh and the fineal one trying to bring the humans and cylons 2geather or trying 2 get hera. the reast of cylons r trying to destory humans and who the think heratics in other words six, three, eight and Leoben Conoy because in the trailer it looks like ther is a battle on the cylon ship with three and that is how the cylon civil war beign.
4 now that is it.
January 13th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Ahhh can’t write much to do leaving for work but
that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering – that line there it sounds as if its talking about future tense not past, so how could the 5th be Baltar as to me it sounds as if this suffering is going to happen, it hasn’t happened just yet.
Just read that part again and think is it talking about the past or whats to come, as for me sounds like it is about whats to come not what’s happened already.
And plus Baltar being the 5th one I think sucks, I wouldn’t be shocked I would be like oh that sucks lol as his always been like am I a cylon or human and it wouldn’t be a great twist at all.
January 13th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Hey guys
Great analysis, it really sparks the imagination regarding all the possibilities this prophesy may imply.
It also brings to mind a bunch of stuff about BSG that I’ve been contemplating for awhile.
The he will find her could possibly be a metaphor or the whole Cylon/Human conflict. (Biblical prophesy does this quite a bit, the Esau/Jacob reference in Malachi being one example). Though the when I first heard it I thought of the Tigh/Caprica connection as well, and is probably the most accurate.
Now the “Baltar as the 12th Cylon” idea certainly has merit. That said Baltar wasn’t really redeemed through his suffering. Its not like Adama or Roslin like him any more than they did before, and although it deeply affected him, and we have yet to see if he has become any better of a person because of it, though he may have been redeemed in the eyes of certain colonials (this is at least true of the unidentified women seen at the end of Crossroads).
This also brings to mind some ideas I’ve had about the Cylons in general that have had for awhile. I agree with Matt that there is some kind of connection between the Cylons and the twelve gods of the Colonials. Here’s what I was thinking (feel free to shout me down):
Each Cylon represents an Olympian deity (though this isn’t exactly perfect, there are seven male Cylons, and only six male Olympians.
and furthermore I think the 12th Cylon represents Zeus (though Doral may represent him).
Here’s how I think it all breaks down (though this is far from perfect and could change as we learn more about each individual Cylon).
Zeus Unknown (Doral is a possibility) Zeus was the ruler of heaven, and king of the gods
Doral was the hardest to place, even though we saw him early, we really haven’t seen a lot of him. I’m not sure where he fits in the Cylon political world
Poseidon/Neptune Saul Tigh – based on his instability Poseidon was god of the sea, but he was also the god of earthquakes, which makes sense. Most ancient cultures cast a wary eye to the see, and in most Ancient Near East literature (the Bible included) the sea almost always represents that which is unstable and untamable.
Hermes/Mercury Leoben – based on his cunning Hermes was the messenger of the gods, but he was also the god cunning, thieving and lying (which we’ve seen Leoben do on several occasions)
Hera D’Anna Hera was the Goddess of marriage, which doesn’t particularly apply to the Cylons. However, Hera is often seen and an antagonist to Zeus (because of Zeus’ sleeping around, and in the Illiad Hera is usually portrayed as the leader of those who were more or less dissenting against Zeus rule. (The Three’s always showed a certain degree of leadership, though they eventually got boxed for their dissent)
Hades (though possibly Ares) Cavil Hades wasn’t strictly a Olympian god, his realm was the Underworld, where the dead go to reside (which is why I thought Ares, as the god of war and bloodlust, might fit better). I read somewhere that Dean Stockwell saw the Cavils as being kind of the Heinrich Himmler of the Cylons. The Cavil’s seem to be the more bloodthirsty of the Cylons, during the occupation they were the most willing to use brutal methods in order to bring the humans to heel.
Athena Sharon Athena was the goddess of wisdom (humans have relied on Sharon’s wisdom several times, she seems to be a bit more philosophical than most of the rest, with the exception of Leoben perhaps). She was also a goddess of war, though she represented the more strategic side of war whereas Ares represented the brutality of it.
And besides its Sharon Agathon’s callsign
Aphrodite The Sixes Probably the easiest to deside, Aphrodite is the goddess of love, desire and beauty, which the Sixes seem to have little trouble using to their advantage.
Apollo Simon Apollo was the god of the sun, but he was also the god of healing, and based my decision on how we first see Simon, as a Doctor taking care of Kara Thrace
Artemis Unknown Goddess of the hunt. If Starbuck is a Cylon, then she most certainly would fit in this slot. Anders could also be a male version of Artemis.
Hephaestus/Vulcan Galen Tyrol Hephaestus was the blacksmith of the god, also he was the god of craftsman. Given Tyrol’s blue collar roots, he most likely represents him.
Hestia Unknown (possibly Tory Foster) Hestia was the goddess of the hearth and home, so given Tory’s behind the scenes work for Roslin she could be a good fit here.
Demeter unknown Demeter was the god of agriculture, which doesn’t really have a place in space *shrug*
Yeah I know this was a big digression, but maybe it’ll help us narrow down who the final Cylon might be.
I think your dead on about a Cylon civil war brewing (remember D’Anna’s line early in season three about how the interaction with humats pns was causing internal turbulence among the Crusading Seven Cylons). Its something that I believe has been a long time coming. This, I think, is itself the great sin that the Hybrid refers to.
The Cylons place a great deal of emphasis on unity, its how they make political decision, as well as how they run their ships, so the dissent represented in Caprica-Six and Boomer (and those who were/are influenced by them), has to be troubling for them. That’s why I’m so curious for the season premiere, now that they’ve got the Colonials dead to rights, how will the dissenters react?
Finally regarding the prophesy regard Starbuck, I agree she’s probably the angel talked about by the Hybrid. Now remember the word angel comes from the Greek angelos) which means either messenger or envoy, so she doesn’t need to be a “Touched by an Angel” type messenger to deliver the message.
As has been mentioned before apocalypse (does literally mean revelation or disclosure of the end (of the odyssey?) of humanity. Just because she’s and “angel” doesn’t nessecarily mean her direction is good (For example, most of the angels talked about in revelation, those who blow the seven trumpets and those who spill the seven bowls of wrath, don’t exactly dispense with “good” things ) hence the prophesy about her being the “harbinger of death” its possible that the way she takes them to earth could lead to the death of a lot of the remaining colonials.
Well those were just some of my thoughts. Feel free to let me know what you think!
Dave
January 13th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Thanks to Matt and Nat – great analysis!
Thanks to everyone else too (although some of you are so hard to read, it makes it hardly worth it – proofread a bit will ya???) Particularly interesting was the attributes of the 12 gods and who matches with those….and while who’s who amongst the 12 is interesting, it really doesn’t matter. It’s Zeus who remains to be revealed. So let’s begin there.
While I agree that the final Cylon seems to be Baltar:
“And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.”
He was definitely hungering for redemption, not only for the holocaust, but for putting them down on New Caprica. The redemption did come when he was found not guilty in his trial. (I don’t know why people don’t consider that redemption!) He was found to be as guilty, or as blameless, as anyone in the fleet, and therefore redeemed as a fallible person who did his best (by Lee and by the judges).
And these words of the Hybrid also fit well with the torture in the water, light.
However, it’s too obvious. It’s a red herring.
So let’s focus again on Zeus.
Read this in terms of Admiral Adama:
“And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.”
Still in shadow = unknown
claw towards the light = come to be known
hungering for redemption = the human race must be redeemed by finally finishing off all Cylons. Extermination, genocide.
that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering = see Prediction 1) below.
Think about it. Adama has always, since the first few minutes of the miniseries, talked about the need for humanity to be redeemed for what it did. The arrogance of humanity playing God and creating machines to do its bidding. Of thinking it could create something so powerful and awesome and thinking it could control it. (Frankenstein’s monster.) He has always, since the start, spoken of humanity’s unfinished business, with the Cylons and with itself. Redemption is Adama’s thing.
He personally didn’t do enough to ensure that the fleet and 12 colonies took his discovery of half-human machine experiments (in the featurette) seriously. So he needs to personally be redeemed for that.
Leoban said “Adama is a Cylon” before going out the airlock.
Let’s look at other alternatives. Gaeta or Dee as Cylons (as Zeus!!!) is silly. It is not Kara, although she is probably a hybrid, or now some other type of being having seen Earth. Roslin, nope – she was saved by hybrid blood. That leaves Lee and Adama. Lee = Apollo = son of Zeus, the most powerful God of the 12 Gods. Zeus = Adama.
Prediction 1) I think you will see Adama working with the ‘good’ side in the civil war to destroy ‘bad’ Cylons, but secretly he will be working to destroy all Cylons, even the good ones, and even at the expense of all humanity (the fleet) being destroyed. He will realize then, when there are few Cylons left, that he is one of them (the Final, Zeus), but that will not stop him in destroying the last remaining Cylons, including himself. He will have all the power, as Zeus, to make the choice, and he will choose to destroy them all, including himself. It will be terrible suffering.
Prediction 2) The Hybrid prophesy says the seven Cylons “will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning.” I think the promised land means joining with humans, gathering with Caprica and Head 6, and denouncing the holocaust and joining the search for Earth.
(Non-) Prediction 3) I don’t think the fleet being made up of Cylons holds any water at all. Everyone heading for Earth is a Cylon? No way.
For one thing, Cylons were tested by Baltar in his lab. There is a difference. Cylons (first appearance of Leoban at Ragnar Station) respond badly to certain radiation types and humans don’t.
For another, the hybrids, if you believe the theory that everyone will turn out to be Cylons, are thus not hybrids at all, which would just make all the hybrid storylines silly and irrelevant. Simply put, it’s silly to think the series writers would do that!
For another, the prophesy speaks of the two enemies becoming one, which clearly points to humanity and Cylons interbreeding. Therefore, they are not the same thing.
For yet another, there are 12 Cylon models, plus toasters. That’s it. Not thousands. That’s been clear from the start, and again, if everyone turns out to be a Cylon, the whole series would be turn silly, as it’s based on the 12, revealing the 12, etc. etc.
I look forward to anyone’s thoughts on this!
Tootie
January 14th, 2008 at 4:58 am
I am pretty sure about 90% of the audience doesn’t really grasp the concept of the final five being fundamentally different from the other seven, and what that could potentially mean. I keep hearing things about how so-and-so “cannot possibly” be a cylon – whatever that means – because of a characteristic they’ve exhibited which is contrary to limitations places on the seven. I think people are going to need to learn that the paradigms which define the seven Cylons are completely irrelevant when taking into account the five.
January 14th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I think it does well to remember that the main question that the show examines is “what does it mean to be human?” The final five are specifically meant to blur the lines of who we think is a Cylon or not. Keeping that in mind pretty much anyone in the series could be the final Cylon (living or dead)
January 16th, 2008 at 5:16 am
Great ideas I agree with most of them. However, I hope you’re wrong about baltar. It would be somewhat of a disappointment. Maybe the final cylon is one of the “dead” characters. Could be Ellen, Kat, or Jammer after all they were kind of looking for redemption.
There is something that has been on my mind for quite a while, and haven’t heard it before. The whole thing about “it has happened before, and will happen again again again and again” might be due to the fact that the original Battlestar Galactica (TOS) did happen… or will happen in the future. So humans keep on getting to earth every 2000 years or so…
Anyways, It appears on this last bsgcast that virtual set get smaller. Or maybe i am just going crazy due to the lack of BSG lately.
Keep up the good work.
January 17th, 2008 at 12:16 am
i was thinkin the other day 1 thing cane back 2 me that was “All this has happened before and will happen again. Again, again. Again. Again” and i think ive got it.
i think that bsgcast (matt) is right but also i hve herd that the fineal 5 r from earth (this can b posible) but this what i thnk sorry if cant unferstand this……
okay…. i think this has happend b4 thnk that when the people from the conolies and the cykons get to earth they will keep fighting and it fects earth and when earthlings c it they r speries, but also people on earth r in fact the gods from ther stories this has been happening Again, again. Again. Again, the fineal five r the gardians and they live clues and ther mines r wiped like all the rest or a re-start bottern is pressed and it start Again, again. Again. Again. but ther r sum who wish to stop this and live on earth with the gods but becasuse this happened Again, again. Again. Again the fineal 5 just keep doing the same thing.
and ther r clues to this thory …..
1) in season 1 Leoben Conoy said to starbuck” u will find kolbol, the home place of all of us”, but starbuck didnt find kolbol, boomer and crashdown did. leoben didnt they will find kolbol and y did he say the will find kolbol?
2) baltar six how did she know about hera when she wasnt born and baltar didnt now aboy helo and athena relashionship at the time also how did shw know boomer was a cylon it could be that future baltar or future six but her in his mind with a item from earth and did the samethin to six to keep baltar safe.
3) 1 question now 1 has asked how canu hve 2 cylon hybrids and one of them is very old, the other big question is who is the parents and how did old hyrid nows going to happend and did the young 1 nows were the temple of the 5 b, i thnk that the older 1 is in fact the futuer nick Tyrol and the yong 1 is hera and they must age slower than humans so they could be older than the cylons and the humans and gives a clue to what the older 1 ment b “As my own existence comes to a close only to begin anew in ways uncertain” and ther hear 2 change the futuer.
4) other clue is how did Tyrol now were the temple b the only posibleate is that he has been ther b4.
5) the colonies bible….. ther r 2 many things witch simlar 2 it like Roslin has the dieing leader and pitherur could b adama in the near future. and ther r others that has happened which has happend b4.
6) kobol, it could be the futuer earth or a planet which was a big clue which could happen when they get 2 earth.
7) i dont now if u count the delet scense, but roslin said ther was battle at the home of the gods, so it could mine that battle in season 4 bigens but it could means what happens when the get to earth.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:02 am
I think that Starbuck is not one of the final 5 cyclons. She is the product of the research by the hybrid and his clan of old school cylons. I think this because the hybrid is particularly concerned with her, there is that mysterious by your command phase as starbucks viper explodes and even her mother says she has some destiny. Also, RDM says kara’s not a cyclon but she could be a hybrid. Hybrids are pilots and so is Kara.
As for the final cylon, I really believe and I have said this before that it might be ellen, Col. Ty’s wife. Although I don’t remember her howling. I do remember the baltar howl during torture but not anyone else.
January 18th, 2008 at 12:40 am
Dave Schoen, baltar cant be a cylon becasue of the luv seen in the mini-series which began the show, when the red line down six’s back tells us that six is pegnet with baltars kid, so baltar cant be a cylon becuses cylons has a spiece cant hve kids, the need humans 2 do that.
January 19th, 2008 at 9:56 am
good show guys, and I agree with most of what you say except on these few points,
“They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many”
I think this part of the prophecy has already occur with the New Caprica Occupation, Where we can all agree high levels of disagreeing went on and factionization of the Cylons occurred.
Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death
Now, remember he is a Cylon, so you have to consider what he considers a harbinger of death, if you do it has to mean Kara is the harbinger of death for the CYLONS not humans. In fact I think the return of Kara will create a even larger gap between them as some of the Cylons would most likely believe that Kara is one of the 5 “other” Cylons with the path of there destiny to earth, while others will believe she is false Prophet and try to destroy her or something bad.
“and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning.”
Now this was sound like Kara, but also sounds to me that not all the Cylons will see this promise land just as some of Mose’s follower didn’t get to see Israel. Now that very last phrase Not an end, but a beginning sounds like the Cylon society as it was is no longer, and that it is in fact the end, it seems to the many, but in fact the creation of a new with maybe with humans, don’t know
January 21st, 2008 at 3:14 pm
“And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one.”
I’m pretty sure this refers to Baltar and Six as of course Razor is set towards the end of season 2, and at the very end of season 2 / start of season 3 they are brought together with the Cylon occupation.
“midst of confusion” – cylon occupation of New Caprica
“enemies” – They are enemies in the sense that he IS human, and she is a cylon.
“impossible longing” – Explained by the existence of head Six / head Baltar
January 22nd, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Nice ‘cast! I totally agree with a lot of what you said, even though it would be anti-climactic for Baltar to be the final cylon.
About your whole cycle of time theory: How does it perpetuate? the whole idea of a cycle of time implies that it has to perpetuate. Does earth become the new Kolob (er… kobol)? Or does Earth colonize Kobol and die off? I don’t know. But the other thing is that if the colonials are ALL cylons, AND they can reproduce sexually and cannot be told apart from humans, doesn’t that make them human? I personally think that the colonials are all human and the “final five” are the earthling cylons, who, in a kinda Asmovian fashion, have evolved a “Zeroth Law” type of behavior.
Six and Tigh would be interesting. No one ever said that one model had to have only one love interest.
January 27th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
OK Matt and Nat,
What do you think of who is the final Cylon??? What do you say to Bill Adama (see above)???!!???
Thanks!
Tootie
February 7th, 2008 at 4:19 am
I don’t know whether or not this has been suggested yet, or if it has been made impossible by a detail I did not pick up on, but if the a thirteenth group of humans left to colonize Earth and a the hybrid from razor escaped to continue its own evolution to complete itself, and the story goes in a cycle, if the humans destroyed the base ship then would not that be to suggest that the Lords of Kobol destroyed the fledgling human outposts on Earth. However the prophecy did say following Kara would lead to humanities demise, which would be pretty unlikely if they show up to Earth and all they find is a couple of ruins, unless the entire fleet accidentally jumps into the Earth. (credits roll) It was never said why the thirteenth group left, but given the reason of the hybrid they probably had no choice. That being said Earth maybe populated by individuals not taking the colonials in with open arms, instead ganging up on them with the cylons. “They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into many and then they will join the promised land, not an end but a beginning.” The part of the prophecy “And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in a howl of great suffering” I don’t think is about Baltar, in the song All Along the Watch Tower which is twisted through the hybrids words to an extent I think, a howl referred to a wind like that of the storm cloud Kara was killed in. I doubt all of these theories, but I can’t think of better ones. My reason for thinking that the song and the prophecy are connected is little similarities like “None of them along the line know what any of it is worth” and “the denial of the one true path, played out in a world not there own.” But I might just be seeing connections that were never intended.
February 8th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
I’ve got some new theories//thoughts about the Hybrid’s prophecy, very much based on spoilers – mostly the ‘official’ ones (promo videos and pics).
What could the conflict between the Significant 7 be about? As far as I can see, there are two big issues that could split them: 1) What attitude they should have towards the Final Five, and 2) Whether they should want to reproduce sexually, and what to do with the Cylon/human hybrid babies… and perhaps 3) what to do about the humans (which could be connected with issue 2, if they don’t find another way to reproduce except with the humans – in case that the 7 and the 5 cannot reproduce with each other any more than 7 can).
New promo video for BSG http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOccLHua0VE includes a shot of Natalie (the new Six character in S4, the one who, according to the recent Entertainment Weekly article, is going to be a leader of a faction of Cylons with a different agenda, saying “It is time to unite the 12 models, once and for all.” Based on this, Natalie’s faction will definitely be for unification with the Final Five. We know that Cavils are against it, and they probably wanted Threes boxed for that reason (even though the official reason, and the reason why the other models wanted her boxed was simply the fact that she ignored the majority will and did something the other models had voted against. Natalie’s faction might want Threes unboxed now (and they might get an excuse if the vote is locked 3:3, now that there are only 6 models).
But, the Last Supper photo http://triciahelfer.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ew-bsg-lastsupper-small.jpg shows Natalie angrily pointing at someone, and it seems like she’s pointing at Helo and Sharon, who are looking in her direction, and Athena seems scared. RDM’s comment on Helo and Sharon is that they are looking at a person who is “definitely reacting”. This must be Natalie, she is the only one who is reacting, and she is reacting very strongly. (It can’t be Roslin, as some people have suggested – Helo and Sharon are not looking in her direction, and Roslin is not looking in their direction.) Does this mean that Natalie’s faction is against hybrid babies, and against any union between Humans and Cylons? How do the other Cylons feel about it? We know that Cavils do not want Cylons to reproduce, or anything to do with Humans, and they have managed to convince Boomer (although it was an emotional rection and she might change her mind, if she stops being so bitter), who is probably still the most influential of the 8s. If this is really the case, will there be a conflict between the Sixes, because, as we know, Caprica 6 feels the need to protect Hera with her life?
I am now more inclined to think that the old Hybrid’s monologue really was all about bringing all the 12 models together. Perhaps by “…and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning” he meant that the Cylons should finally all come together and go to Earth, which, for some reason, they seem to consider their promised land as much as the humans do (as they said in season 3). Perhaps the Hybrid does not want the Cylons to have anything to do with Humans, and maybe he doesn’t want the Humans to get to Earth (or at least the same Earth that the Cylons are going to *wink*), and that’s what his warning about Kara was about. I always wondered whether we should assume that he is friendly to Humans and that he would want to warn them – he is not exactly human, and after all, he seems to regard the Cylons as his children. He never said “You must not follow her” and it was never clear if this was meant as a warning TO Humans that Kara Thrace will cause their destruction, or a warning ABOUT Humans and Kara Thrace who will lead them to their destination, which must be avoided at any cost, because, to the Hybrid, it would represent the “Apocalypse” (end of the world as they know it? Revelation?)?
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.” I’ve wondered if the enemies who will be brought together will be Cylons and Humans, or the FF Cylons and S7 Cylons, who seem to have been on opposite sides for a long time. I wished it was the former, but considering who those words are spoken by, I think it’s more likely that this is also about the unification of all the 12 models. This would mean that “he” and “she” refers to a Final Fiver and a Significant 7 Cylon.
However, I think it won’t be Caprica 6 and Tigh, but…and here comes the spoiler… scroll down to read…
*SPOILER*
The spoiler is that Caprica 6 is going to have some kind of relationship with Anders. Of course, you know that she said that Caprica 6 “kind of falls in love” with someone other than Baltar, and that there is a scene she shot where she exchanges punches with someone and it ends up with sex. I think that the speculation started after Tricia Helfer posted the photos from the set that show her and Michael Trucco working together (it says it was for episode 8, but it’s probably for episode 6, since Razor was officially numbered as episodes 4.1 and 4.2) on her blog: http://triciahelfer.com/blog/?page_id=101 I don’t know if there has been some more substantial confirmation of this spoiler, or if this was all based on the photos, and those well known comments she made at San Diego Comic Con in August, around the same time when these photos were taken.
Now, at first glance it seems strange that Anders would fall for another woman a few episodes after promising to Starbuck to love her forever (as we see him in the promos), but Michael Trucco has let out another spoiler in an interview – that Starbuck will not react that well when Anders tells her he will love her always even if she is a Cylon, and that this will cause a disagreement between them that will last for a few episodes. So, my speculation: perhaps Starbuck, terrified with the idea that she might be a Cylon, will go crazy at his implication that she might be one, dump him and tell him something like, how could you ever love a Cylon, and Anders will feel hurt and desperate because what he really wants is an assurance that she could love him even if she finds out he is a Cylon, and now he’ll feel that she will never love him. He will also probably be drawn to Caprica 6 because he is still coping with being a Cylon and, like Tigh, he will want to find out more about Cylons from their perspective. Tricia said that Caprica’s relationship with whoever will start with a fight. Caprica 6 probably still believes that Anders is human, so she might be again projecting her anger and pain about her broken relationship with Baltar, as she did when she exchanged punches with Tigh in Crossroads I. When I first heard the spoiler about Caprica’s new love interest, I thought that it made no sense, because Caprica 6 clearly still loves Baltar, and I thought it made even less sense for it to be Anders, since he loves Starbuck. However, it might make sense exactly for that reason – what brings them together might be pain, desperation, anger, and the “impossible longing” that Hybrid mentioned might NOT be longing for each other…but their respective desperate longing for OTHER PEOPLE, for human beings who haven’t really made them happy so far. Her love for Baltar and his love for Starbuck have left them both very frustrated and neither feels that their feelings have been fully reciprocated. “Impossible” might still be a little strong word, but from the Hybrid’s perspective, a Cylon’s longing for a Human being must be indeed hopeless and forbidden.
Yes, I am implying that both Baltar and Starbuck are human, and I also think it makes the story a lot more interesting as it is – and especially if this Cylon/Cylon relationship really happens… It’s a lot more interesting to have a Cylon torn between a relationship with another Cylon, and a longing for a Human. And don’t forget the Opera House and Kobol, Caprica’s protective feelings towards the hybrid baby Hera… it has been hinted throughout that Caprica 6 and Baltar are supposed to be some kind of surrogate/spiritual parents to Hera, and that Hera is of the utmost importance for the future of Cylons and Humans! How will this play out in season 4, especially if the other Cylons (led by a Six!) now decide that they don’t want to reproduce with Humans?
February 9th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I’ve got some new theories//thoughts about the Hybrid’s prophecy, very much based on spoilers – mostly the ‘official’ ones (promo videos and pics).
What could the conflict between the Significant 7 be about? As far as I can see, there are two big issues that could split them: 1) What attitude they should have towards the Final Five, and 2) Whether they should want to reproduce sexually, and what to do with the Cylon/human hybrid babies… and perhaps 3) what to do about the humans (which could be connected with issue 2, if they don’t find another way to reproduce except with the humans – in case that the 7 and the 5 cannot reproduce with each other any more than 7 can).
New promo video for BSG http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOccLHua0VE includes a shot of Natalie (the new Six character in S4, the one who, according to the recent Entertainment Weekly article, is going to be a leader of a faction of Cylons with a different agenda, saying “It is time to unite the 12 models, once and for all.” Based on this, Natalie’s faction will definitely be for unification with the Final Five. We know that Cavils are against it, and they probably wanted Threes boxed for that reason (even though the official reason, and the reason why the other models wanted her boxed was simply the fact that she ignored the majority will and did something the other models had voted against. Natalie’s faction might want Threes unboxed now (and they might get an excuse if the vote is locked 3:3, now that there are only 6 models).
But, the Last Supper photo shows Natalie angrily pointing at someone, and it seems like she’s pointing at Helo and Sharon, who are looking in her direction, and Athena seems scared. RDM’s comment on Helo and Sharon is that they are looking at a person who is “definitely reacting”. This must be Natalie, she is the only one who is reacting, and she is reacting very strongly. (It can’t be Roslin, as some people have suggested – Helo and Sharon are not looking in her direction, and Roslin is not looking in their direction.) Does this mean that Natalie’s faction is against hybrid babies, and against any union between Humans and Cylons? How do the other Cylons feel about it? We know that Cavils do not want Cylons to reproduce, or anything to do with Humans, and they have managed to convince Boomer (although it was an emotional rection and she might change her mind, if she stops being so bitter), who is probably still the most influential of the 8s. If this is really the case, will there be a conflict between the Sixes, because, as we know, Caprica 6 feels the need to protect Hera with her life?
I am now more inclined to think that the old Hybrid’s monologue really was all about bringing all the 12 models together. Perhaps by “…and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning” he meant that the Cylons should finally all come together and go to Earth, which, for some reason, they seem to consider their promised land as much as the humans do (as they said in season 3). Perhaps the Hybrid does not want the Cylons to have anything to do with Humans, and maybe he doesn’t want the Humans to get to Earth (or at least the same Earth that the Cylons are going to *wink*), and that’s what his warning about Kara was about. I always wondered whether we should assume that he is friendly to Humans and that he would want to warn them – he is not exactly human, and after all, he seems to regard the Cylons as his children. He never said “You must not follow her” and it was never clear if this was meant as a warning TO Humans that Kara Thrace will cause their destruction, or a warning ABOUT Humans and Kara Thrace who will lead them to their destination, which must be avoided at any cost, because, to the Hybrid, it would represent the “Apocalypse” (end of the world as they know it? Revelation?)?
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.” I’ve wondered if the enemies who will be brought together will be Cylons and Humans, or the FF Cylons and S7 Cylons, who seem to have been on opposite sides for a long time. I wished it was the former, but considering who those words are spoken by, I think it’s more likely that this is also about the unification of all the 12 models. This would mean that “he” and “she” refers to a Final Fiver and a Significant 7 Cylon.
However, I think it won’t be Caprica 6 and Tigh, but…and here comes the spoiler… scroll down to read…
*SPOILER*
The spoiler is that Caprica 6 is going to have some kind of relationship with Anders. Of course, you know that she said that Caprica 6 “kind of falls in love” with someone other than Baltar, and that there is a scene she shot where she exchanges punches with someone and it ends up with sex. I think that the speculation started after Tricia Helfer posted the photos from the set that show her and Michael Trucco working together (it says it was for episode 8, but it’s probably for episode 6, since Razor was officially numbered as episodes 4.1 and 4.2) on her blog: http://triciahelfer.com/blog/?page_id=101 I don’t know if there has been some more substantial confirmation of this spoiler, or if this was all based on the photos, and those well known comments she made at San Diego Comic Con in August, around the same time when these photos were taken.
Now, at first glance it seems strange that Anders would fall for another woman a few episodes after promising to Starbuck to love her forever (as we see him in the promos), but Michael Trucco has let out another spoiler in an interview – that Starbuck will not react that well when Anders tells her he will love her always even if she is a Cylon, and that this will cause a disagreement between them that will last for a few episodes. So, my speculation: perhaps Starbuck, terrified with the idea that she might be a Cylon, will go crazy at his implication that she might be one, dump him and tell him something like, how could you ever love a Cylon, and Anders will feel hurt and desperate because what he really wants is an assurance that she could love him even if she finds out he is a Cylon, and now he’ll feel that she will never love him. He will also probably be drawn to Caprica 6 because he is still coping with being a Cylon and, like Tigh, he will want to find out more about Cylons from their perspective. Tricia said that Caprica’s relationship with whoever will start with a fight. Caprica 6 probably still believes that Anders is human, so she might be again projecting her anger and pain about her broken relationship with Baltar, as she did when she exchanged punches with Tigh in Crossroads I. When I first heard the spoiler about Caprica’s new love interest, I thought that it made no sense, because Caprica 6 clearly still loves Baltar, and I thought it made even less sense for it to be Anders, since he loves Starbuck. However, it might make sense exactly for that reason – what brings them together might be pain, desperation, anger, and the “impossible longing” that Hybrid mentioned might NOT be longing for each other…but their respective desperate longing for OTHER PEOPLE, for human beings who haven’t really made them happy so far. Her love for Baltar and his love for Starbuck have left them both very frustrated and neither feels that their feelings have been fully reciprocated. “Impossible” might still be a little strong word, but from the Hybrid’s perspective, a Cylon’s longing for a Human being must be indeed hopeless and forbidden.
Yes, I am implying that both Baltar and Starbuck are human, and I also think it makes the story a lot more interesting as it is – and especially if this Cylon/Cylon relationship really happens… It’s a lot more interesting to have a Cylon torn between a relationship with another Cylon, and a longing for a Human. And don’t forget the Opera House and Kobol, Caprica’s protective feelings towards the hybrid baby Hera… it has been hinted throughout that Caprica 6 and Baltar are supposed to be some kind of surrogate/spiritual parents to Hera, and that Hera is of the utmost importance for the future of Cylons and Humans! How will this play out in season 4, especially if the other Cylons (led by a Six!) now decide that they don’t want to reproduce with Humans?
February 14th, 2008 at 11:44 am
The Colonials cannot be Cylons. The canster/beacon that was left behind that poisoned the Cylons didn’t have any effect on them.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
I’ve got some new theories//thoughts about the Hybrid’s prophecy, very much based on spoilers – mostly the ‘official’ ones (promo videos and pics).
What could the conflict between the Significant 7 be about? As far as I can see, there are two big issues that could split them: 1) What attitude they should have towards the Final Five, and 2) Whether they should want to reproduce sexually, and what to do with the Cylon/human hybrid babies… and perhaps 3) what to do about the humans (which could be connected with issue 2, if they don’t find another way to reproduce except with the humans – in case that the 7 and the 5 cannot reproduce with each other any more than 7 can).
New promo video for BSG http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOccLHua0VE includes a shot of Natalie (the new Six character in S4, the one who, according to the recent Entertainment Weekly article, is going to be a leader of a faction of Cylons with a different agenda, saying “It is time to unite the 12 models, once and for all.” Based on this, Natalie’s faction will definitely be for unification with the Final Five. We know that Cavils are against it, and they probably wanted Threes boxed for that reason (even though the official reason, and the reason why the other models wanted her boxed was simply the fact that she ignored the majority will and did something the other models had voted against. Natalie’s faction might want Threes unboxed now (and they might get an excuse if the vote is locked 3:3, now that there are only 6 models).
But, the Last Supper photo http://triciahelfer.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ew-bsg-lastsupper-small.jpg shows Natalie angrily pointing at someone, and it seems like she’s pointing at Helo and Sharon, who are looking in her direction, and Athena seems scared. RDM’s comment on Helo and Sharon is that they are looking at a person who is “definitely reacting”. This must be Natalie, she is the only one who is reacting, and she is reacting very strongly. (It can’t be Roslin, as some people have suggested – Helo and Sharon are not looking in her direction, and Roslin is not looking in their direction.) Does this mean that Natalie’s faction is against hybrid babies, and against any union between Humans and Cylons? How do the other Cylons feel about it? We know that Cavils do not want Cylons to reproduce, or anything to do with Humans, and they have managed to convince Boomer (although it was an emotional rection and she might change her mind, if she stops being so bitter), who is probably still the most influential of the 8s. If this is really the case, will there be a conflict between the Sixes, because, as we know, Caprica 6 feels the need to protect Hera with her life?
I am now more inclined to think that the old Hybrid’s monologue really was all about bringing all the 12 models together. Perhaps by “…and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning” he meant that the Cylons should finally all come together and go to Earth, which, for some reason, they seem to consider their promised land as much as the humans do (as they said in season 3). Perhaps the Hybrid does not want the Cylons to have anything to do with Humans, and maybe he doesn’t want the Humans to get to Earth (or at least the same Earth that the Cylons are going to *wink*), and that’s what his warning about Kara was about. I always wondered whether we should assume that he is friendly to Humans and that he would want to warn them – he is not exactly human, and after all, he seems to regard the Cylons as his children. He never said “You must not follow her” and it was never clear if this was meant as a warning TO Humans that Kara Thrace will cause their destruction, or a warning ABOUT Humans and Kara Thrace who will lead them to their destination, which must be avoided at any cost, because, to the Hybrid, it would represent the “Apocalypse” (end of the world as they know it? Revelation?)?
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.” I’ve wondered if the enemies who will be brought together will be Cylons and Humans, or the FF Cylons and S7 Cylons, who seem to have been on opposite sides for a long time. I wished it was the former, but considering who those words are spoken by, I think it’s more likely that this is also about the unification of all the 12 models. This would mean that “he” and “she” refers to a Final Fiver and a Significant 7 Cylon.
However, I think it won’t be Caprica 6 and Tigh, but…and here comes the spoiler… scroll down to read…
*SPOILER*
The spoiler is that Caprica 6 is going to have some kind of relationship with Anders. Of course, you know that she said that Caprica 6 “kind of falls in love” with someone other than Baltar, and that there is a scene she shot where she exchanges punches with someone and it ends up with sex. I think that the speculation started after Tricia Helfer posted the photos from the set that show her and Michael Trucco working together (it says it was for episode 8, but it’s probably for episode 6, since Razor was officially numbered as episodes 4.1 and 4.2) on her blog: http://triciahelfer.com/blog/?page_id=101 I don’t know if there has been some more substantial confirmation of this spoiler, or if this was all based on the photos, and those well known comments she made at San Diego Comic Con in August, around the same time when these photos were taken.
Now, at first glance it seems strange that Anders would fall for another woman a few episodes after promising to Starbuck to love her forever (as we see him in the promos), but Michael Trucco has let out another spoiler in an interview – that Starbuck will not react that well when Anders tells her he will love her always even if she is a Cylon, and that this will cause a disagreement between them that will last for a few episodes. So, my speculation: perhaps Starbuck, terrified with the idea that she might be a Cylon, will go crazy at his implication that she might be one, dump him and tell him something like, how could you ever love a Cylon, and Anders will feel hurt and desperate because what he really wants is an assurance that she could love him even if she finds out he is a Cylon, and now he’ll feel that she will never love him. He will also probably be drawn to Caprica 6 because he is still coping with being a Cylon and, like Tigh, he will want to find out more about Cylons from their perspective. Tricia said that Caprica’s relationship with whoever will start with a fight. Caprica 6 probably still believes that Anders is human, so she might be again projecting her anger and pain about her broken relationship with Baltar, as she did when she exchanged punches with Tigh in Crossroads I. When I first heard the spoiler about Caprica’s new love interest, I thought that it made no sense, because Caprica 6 clearly still loves Baltar, and I thought it made even less sense for it to be Anders, since he loves Starbuck. However, it might make sense exactly for that reason – what brings them together might be pain, desperation, anger, and the “impossible longing” that Hybrid mentioned might NOT be longing for each other…but their respective desperate longing for OTHER PEOPLE, for human beings who haven’t really made them happy so far. Her love for Baltar and his love for Starbuck have left them both very frustrated and neither feels that their feelings have been fully reciprocated. “Impossible” might still be a little strong word, but from the Hybrid’s perspective, a Cylon’s longing for a Human being must be indeed hopeless and forbidden.
Yes, I am implying that both Baltar and Starbuck are human, and I also think it makes the story a lot more interesting as it is – and especially if this Cylon/Cylon relationship really happens… It’s a lot more interesting to have a Cylon torn between a relationship with another Cylon, and a longing for a Human. And don’t forget the Opera House and Kobol, Caprica’s protective feelings towards the hybrid baby Hera… it has been hinted throughout that Caprica 6 and Baltar are supposed to be some kind of surrogate/spiritual parents to Hera, and that Hera is of the utmost importance for the future of Cylons and Humans! How will this play out in season 4, especially if the other Cylons (led by a Six!) now decide that they don’t want to reproduce with Humans?
February 15th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I’m glad I’m not the only one who has pondered at the significance of the symbolism behind the 12 gods of Kobol and the alleged 12 Cylon models. But I still can’t fathom how Tigh and the rest can still be Cylons. If they are they must be of a different model or generation. That is hard to understand. Tigh’s eye hasn’t healed (as far as we can tell). Sam got sick on New Caprica. None of them were infected by the old beacon’s virus. And so on. Therefore, if they are Cylons, they would have been made in preparation of those scenarios. But that would require incredible foresight mixed with chance. There was a huge chance they would not have survived so long with the Colonials.
I do believe they are all following a destiny but by whose design? The religious aspects were terrifying. It appears it was always the intention of the 12 Gods for humanity to go to Earth. Did their goddess, Athena, die because she sent the 13th Tribe to Earth while the others went elsewhere? Did some god really inspire the Cylons to seek human form and drive humanity into this exodus? I sometimes doubt it. But if there is some divine hand involved, Tigh and the rest, along with Starbuck could be the main players directed by the gods themselves. Maybe Starbuck is herself a descendent of one of the 12 gods, hence her destiny. But where does that put the Cylons in the whole scheme?
February 16th, 2008 at 9:03 am
BernieB u r wrong being 12 gods of kobol, becasuse ther gods r ancent greek gods and ther 13 gods if u count Hades so the 12 cylons cant b like the 12 gods of kobol also 2 my surces Tigh and the rest R Cylons ther r just diffenet models than the other 7 cylons
February 16th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Yes, I knew that stuff, but we’re speculating on what’s revealed in BSG, not actual Greco-Roman mythology. (FYI: Hercules did have boy lovers in the original myths.) In mythology Hestia had stepped down to avoid the unlucky number of 13, but that doesn’t mean much to this show.
Anyway, I am not completely reluctant to accept that Tigh and the rest are Cylons. It’s just a matter of why they are different and in addition for what purpose? Did the so-called gods arrange all this just to determine which is the next stage of the human race? Or could it just be the bloody result of blind faith, arrogance, and humanity’s tenuous control of their advanced technology?
February 17th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
I’ve tried to post this 5 or 6 times during the last week, but it never shows. let’s see if it will work if I split the post in two…like season 4…
I’ve got some new theories//thoughts about the Hybrid’s prophecy, very much based on spoilers – mostly the ‘official’ ones (promo videos and pics).
What could the conflict between the Significant 7 be about? As far as I can see, there are two big issues that could split them: 1) What attitude they should have towards the Final Five, and 2) Whether they should want to reproduce sexually, and what to do with the Cylon/human hybrid babies… and perhaps 3) what to do about the humans (which could be connected with issue 2, if they don’t find another way to reproduce except with the humans – in case that the 7 and the 5 cannot reproduce with each other any more than 7 can).
New promo video for BSG http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOccLHua0VE includes a shot of Natalie (the new Six character in S4, the one who, according to the recent Entertainment Weekly article, is going to be a leader of a faction of Cylons with a different agenda, saying “It is time to unite the 12 models, once and for all.” Based on this, Natalie’s faction will definitely be for unification with the Final Five. We know that Cavils are against it, and they probably wanted Threes boxed for that reason (even though the official reason, and the reason why the other models wanted her boxed was simply the fact that she ignored the majority will and did something the other models had voted against. Natalie’s faction might want Threes unboxed now (and they might get an excuse if the vote is locked 3:3, now that there are only 6 models).
But, the Last Supper photo http://triciahelfer.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ew-bsg-lastsupper-small.jpg shows Natalie angrily pointing at someone, and it seems like she’s pointing at Helo and Sharon, who are looking in her direction, and Athena seems scared. RDM’s comment on Helo and Sharon is that they are looking at a person who is “definitely reacting”. This must be Natalie, she is the only one who is reacting, and she is reacting very strongly. (It can’t be Roslin, as some people have suggested – Helo and Sharon are not looking in her direction, and Roslin is not looking in their direction.) Does this mean that Natalie’s faction is against hybrid babies, and against any union between Humans and Cylons? How do the other Cylons feel about it? We know that Cavils do not want Cylons to reproduce, or anything to do with Humans, and they have managed to convince Boomer (although it was an emotional rection and she might change her mind, if she stops being so bitter), who is probably still the most influential of the 8s. If this is really the case, will there be a conflict between the Sixes, because, as we know, Caprica 6 feels the need to protect Hera with her life?
I am now more inclined to think that the old Hybrid’s monologue really was all about bringing all the 12 models together. Perhaps by “…and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning” he meant that the Cylons should finally all come together and go to Earth, which, for some reason, they seem to consider their promised land as much as the humans do (as they said in season 3). Perhaps the Hybrid does not want the Cylons to have anything to do with Humans, and maybe he doesn’t want the Humans to get to Earth (or at least the same Earth that the Cylons are going to *wink*), and that’s what his warning about Kara was about. I always wondered whether we should assume that he is friendly to Humans and that he would want to warn them – he is not exactly human, and after all, he seems to regard the Cylons as his children. He never said “You must not follow her” and it was never clear if this was meant as a warning TO Humans that Kara Thrace will cause their destruction, or a warning ABOUT Humans and Kara Thrace who will lead them to their destination, which must be avoided at any cost, because, to the Hybrid, it would represent the “Apocalypse” (end of the world as they know it? Revelation?)?
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.” I’ve wondered if the enemies who will be brought together will be Cylons and Humans, or the FF Cylons and S7 Cylons, who seem to have been on opposite sides for a long time. I wished it was the former, but considering who those words are spoken by, I think it’s more likely that this is also about the unification of all the 12 models. This would mean that “he” and “she” refers to a Final Fiver and a Significant 7 Cylon.
However, I think it won’t be Caprica 6 and Tigh, but…and here comes the spoiler… in the next post…
February 17th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
I’ve got some new theories//thoughts about the Hybrid’s prophecy, very much based on spoilers – mostly the ‘official’ ones (promo videos and pics).
What could the conflict between the Significant 7 be about? As far as I can see, there are two big issues that could split them: 1) What attitude they should have towards the Final Five, and 2) Whether they should want to reproduce sexually, and what to do with the Cylon/human hybrid babies… and perhaps 3) what to do about the humans (which could be connected with issue 2, if they don’t find another way to reproduce except with the humans – in case that the 7 and the 5 cannot reproduce with each other any more than 7 can).
New promo video for BSG includes a shot of Natalie (the new Six character in S4, the one who, according to the recent Entertainment Weekly article, is going to be a leader of a faction of Cylons with a different agenda, saying “It is time to unite the 12 models, once and for all.” Based on this, Natalie’s faction will definitely be for unification with the Final Five. We know that Cavils are against it, and they probably wanted Threes boxed for that reason (even though the official reason, and the reason why the other models wanted her boxed was simply the fact that she ignored the majority will and did something the other models had voted against. Natalie’s faction might want Threes unboxed now (and they might get an excuse if the vote is locked 3:3, now that there are only 6 models).
But, the Last Supper photo shows Natalie angrily pointing at someone, and it seems like she’s pointing at Helo and Sharon, who are looking in her direction, and Athena seems scared. RDM’s comment on Helo and Sharon is that they are looking at a person who is “definitely reacting”. This must be Natalie, she is the only one who is reacting, and she is reacting very strongly. (It can’t be Roslin, as some people have suggested – Helo and Sharon are not looking in her direction, and Roslin is not looking in their direction.) Does this mean that Natalie’s faction is against hybrid babies, and against any union between Humans and Cylons? How do the other Cylons feel about it? We know that Cavils do not want Cylons to reproduce, or anything to do with Humans, and they have managed to convince Boomer (although it was an emotional rection and she might change her mind, if she stops being so bitter), who is probably still the most influential of the 8s. If this is really the case, will there be a conflict between the Sixes, because, as we know, Caprica 6 feels the need to protect Hera with her life?
I am now more inclined to think that the old Hybrid’s monologue really was all about bringing all the 12 models together. Perhaps by “…and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning” he meant that the Cylons should finally all come together and go to Earth, which, for some reason, they seem to consider their promised land as much as the humans do (as they said in season 3). Perhaps the Hybrid does not want the Cylons to have anything to do with Humans, and maybe he doesn’t want the Humans to get to Earth (or at least the same Earth that the Cylons are going to *wink*), and that’s what his warning about Kara was about. I always wondered whether we should assume that he is friendly to Humans and that he would want to warn them – he is not exactly human, and after all, he seems to regard the Cylons as his children. He never said “You must not follow her” and it was never clear if this was meant as a warning TO Humans that Kara Thrace will cause their destruction, or a warning ABOUT Humans and Kara Thrace who will lead them to their destination, which must be avoided at any cost, because, to the Hybrid, it would represent the “Apocalypse” (end of the world as they know it? Revelation?)?
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.” I’ve wondered if the enemies who will be brought together will be Cylons and Humans, or the FF Cylons and S7 Cylons, who seem to have been on opposite sides for a long time. I wished it was the former, but considering who those words are spoken by, I think it’s more likely that this is also about the unification of all the 12 models. This would mean that “he” and “she” refers to a Final Fiver and a Significant 7 Cylon.
However, I think it won’t be Caprica 6 and Tigh, but…and here comes the spoiler… scroll down to read…
*SPOILER*
The spoiler is that Caprica 6 is going to have some kind of relationship with Anders. Of course, you know that she said that Caprica 6 “kind of falls in love” with someone other than Baltar, and that there is a scene she shot where she exchanges punches with someone and it ends up with sex. I think that the speculation started after Tricia Helfer posted the photos from the set that show her and Michael Trucco working together (it says it was for episode 8, but it’s probably for episode 6, since Razor was officially numbered as episodes 4.1 and 4.2) on her blog: http://triciahelfer.com/blog/?page_id=101 I don’t know if there has been some more substantial confirmation of this spoiler, or if this was all based on the photos, and those well known comments she made at San Diego Comic Con in August, around the same time when these photos were taken.
Now, at first glance it seems strange that Anders would fall for another woman a few episodes after promising to Starbuck to love her forever (as we see him in the promos), but Michael Trucco has let out another spoiler in an interview – that Starbuck will not react that well when Anders tells her he will love her always even if she is a Cylon, and that this will cause a disagreement between them that will last for a few episodes. So, my speculation: perhaps Starbuck, terrified with the idea that she might be a Cylon, will go crazy at his implication that she might be one, dump him and tell him something like, how could you ever love a Cylon, and Anders will feel hurt and desperate because what he really wants is an assurance that she could love him even if she finds out he is a Cylon, and now he’ll feel that she will never love him. He will also probably be drawn to Caprica 6 because he is still coping with being a Cylon and, like Tigh, he will want to find out more about Cylons from their perspective. Tricia said that Caprica’s relationship with whoever will start with a fight. Caprica 6 probably still believes that Anders is human, so she might be again projecting her anger and pain about her broken relationship with Baltar, as she did when she exchanged punches with Tigh in Crossroads I. When I first heard the spoiler about Caprica’s new love interest, I thought that it made no sense, because Caprica 6 clearly still loves Baltar, and I thought it made even less sense for it to be Anders, since he loves Starbuck. However, it might make sense exactly for that reason – what brings them together might be pain, desperation, anger, and the “impossible longing” that Hybrid mentioned might NOT be longing for each other…but their respective desperate longing for OTHER PEOPLE, for human beings who haven’t really made them happy so far. Her love for Baltar and his love for Starbuck have left them both very frustrated and neither feels that their feelings have been fully reciprocated. “Impossible” might still be a little strong word, but from the Hybrid’s perspective, a Cylon’s longing for a Human being must be indeed hopeless and forbidden.
Yes, I am implying that both Baltar and Starbuck are human, and I also think it makes the story a lot more interesting as it is – and especially if this Cylon/Cylon relationship really happens… It’s a lot more interesting to have a Cylon torn between a relationship with another Cylon, and a longing for a Human. And don’t forget the Opera House and Kobol, Caprica’s protective feelings towards the hybrid baby Hera… it has been hinted throughout that Caprica 6 and Baltar are supposed to be some kind of surrogate/spiritual parents to Hera, and that Hera is of the utmost importance for the future of Cylons and Humans! How will this play out in season 4, especially if the other Cylons (led by a Six!) now decide that they don’t want to reproduce with Humans?
February 17th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
I’ve been trying to post about 10 times during the last weel, but the post won’t show! Let’s see if it works if I split it in two…like season 4…
I’ve got some new theories//thoughts about the Hybrid’s prophecy, very much based on spoilers – mostly the ‘official’ ones (promo videos and pics).
What could the conflict between the Significant 7 be about? As far as I can see, there are two big issues that could split them: 1) What attitude they should have towards the Final Five, and 2) Whether they should want to reproduce sexually, and what to do with the Cylon/human hybrid babies… and perhaps 3) what to do about the humans (which could be connected with issue 2, if they don’t find another way to reproduce except with the humans – in case that the 7 and the 5 cannot reproduce with each other any more than 7 can).
New promo video for BSG http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOccLHua0VE includes a shot of Natalie (the new Six character in S4, the one who, according to the recent Entertainment Weekly article, is going to be a leader of a faction of Cylons with a different agenda, saying “It is time to unite the 12 models, once and for all.” Based on this, Natalie’s faction will definitely be for unification with the Final Five. We know that Cavils are against it, and they probably wanted Threes boxed for that reason (even though the official reason, and the reason why the other models wanted her boxed was simply the fact that she ignored the majority will and did something the other models had voted against. Natalie’s faction might want Threes unboxed now (and they might get an excuse if the vote is locked 3:3, now that there are only 6 models).
But, the Last Supper photo http://triciahelfer.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ew-bsg-lastsupper-small.jpg shows Natalie angrily pointing at someone, and it seems like she’s pointing at Helo and Sharon, who are looking in her direction, and Athena seems scared. RDM’s comment on Helo and Sharon is that they are looking at a person who is “definitely reacting”. This must be Natalie, she is the only one who is reacting, and she is reacting very strongly. (It can’t be Roslin, as some people have suggested – Helo and Sharon are not looking in her direction, and Roslin is not looking in their direction.) Does this mean that Natalie’s faction is against hybrid babies, and against any union between Humans and Cylons? How do the other Cylons feel about it? We know that Cavils do not want Cylons to reproduce, or anything to do with Humans, and they have managed to convince Boomer (although it was an emotional rection and she might change her mind, if she stops being so bitter), who is probably still the most influential of the 8s. If this is really the case, will there be a conflict between the Sixes, because, as we know, Caprica 6 feels the need to protect Hera with her life?
I am now more inclined to think that the old Hybrid’s monologue really was all about bringing all the 12 models together. Perhaps by “…and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning” he meant that the Cylons should finally all come together and go to Earth, which, for some reason, they seem to consider their promised land as much as the humans do (as they said in season 3). Perhaps the Hybrid does not want the Cylons to have anything to do with Humans, and maybe he doesn’t want the Humans to get to Earth (or at least the same Earth that the Cylons are going to *wink*), and that’s what his warning about Kara was about. I always wondered whether we should assume that he is friendly to Humans and that he would want to warn them – he is not exactly human, and after all, he seems to regard the Cylons as his children. He never said “You must not follow her” and it was never clear if this was meant as a warning TO Humans that Kara Thrace will cause their destruction, or a warning ABOUT Humans and Kara Thrace who will lead them to their destination, which must be avoided at any cost, because, to the Hybrid, it would represent the “Apocalypse” (end of the world as they know it? Revelation?)?
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.” I’ve wondered if the enemies who will be brought together will be Cylons and Humans, or the FF Cylons and S7 Cylons, who seem to have been on opposite sides for a long time. I wished it was the former, but considering who those words are spoken by, I think it’s more likely that this is also about the unification of all the 12 models. This would mean that “he” and “she” refers to a Final Fiver and a Significant 7 Cylon.
However, I think it won’t be Caprica 6 and Tigh, but…and here comes the spoiler… in the next post…
February 17th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I’ve been trying to post something (some of my speculation and new thoughts on the Hybrid’s prophecy) at least 10 times during the last week, but it never shows! Why?! Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong? It IS long, but people (including me) have posted longer posts!
February 17th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
I’ve got some new theories//thoughts about the Hybrid’s prophecy, very much based on spoilers – mostly the ‘official’ ones (promo videos and pics).
What could the conflict between the Significant 7 be about? As far as I can see, there are two big issues that could split them: 1) What attitude they should have towards the Final Five, and 2) Whether they should want to reproduce sexually, and what to do with the Cylon/human hybrid babies… and perhaps 3) what to do about the humans (which could be connected with issue 2, if they don’t find another way to reproduce except with the humans – in case that the 7 and the 5 cannot reproduce with each other any more than 7 can).
New promo video for BSG includes a shot of Natalie (the new Six character in S4, the one who, according to the recent Entertainment Weekly article, is going to be a leader of a faction of Cylons with a different agenda, saying “It is time to unite the 12 models, once and for all.” Based on this, Natalie’s faction will definitely be for unification with the Final Five. We know that Cavils are against it, and they probably wanted Threes boxed for that reason (even though the official reason, and the reason why the other models wanted her boxed was simply the fact that she ignored the majority will and did something the other models had voted against. Natalie’s faction might want Threes unboxed now (and they might get an excuse if the vote is locked 3:3, now that there are only 6 models).
But, the Last Supper photo shows Natalie angrily pointing at someone, and it seems like she’s pointing at Helo and Sharon, who are looking in her direction, and Athena seems scared. RDM’s comment on Helo and Sharon is that they are looking at a person who is “definitely reacting”. This must be Natalie, she is the only one who is reacting, and she is reacting very strongly. (It can’t be Roslin, as some people have suggested – Helo and Sharon are not looking in her direction, and Roslin is not looking in their direction.) Does this mean that Natalie’s faction is against hybrid babies, and against any union between Humans and Cylons? How do the other Cylons feel about it? We know that Cavils do not want Cylons to reproduce, or anything to do with Humans, and they have managed to convince Boomer (although it was an emotional rection and she might change her mind, if she stops being so bitter), who is probably still the most influential of the 8s. If this is really the case, will there be a conflict between the Sixes, because, as we know, Caprica 6 feels the need to protect Hera with her life?
February 17th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Wow, it worked now that I’ve split it in parts!
continued…
I am now more inclined to think that the old Hybrid’s monologue really was all about bringing all the 12 models together. Perhaps by “…and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning” he meant that the Cylons should finally all come together and go to Earth, which, for some reason, they seem to consider their promised land as much as the humans do (as they said in season 3). Perhaps the Hybrid does not want the Cylons to have anything to do with Humans, and maybe he doesn’t want the Humans to get to Earth (or at least the same Earth that the Cylons are going to *wink*), and that’s what his warning about Kara was about. I always wondered whether we should assume that he is friendly to Humans and that he would want to warn them – he is not exactly human, and after all, he seems to regard the Cylons as his children. He never said “You must not follow her” and it was never clear if this was meant as a warning TO Humans that Kara Thrace will cause their destruction, or a warning ABOUT Humans and Kara Thrace who will lead them to their destination, which must be avoided at any cost, because, to the Hybrid, it would represent the “Apocalypse” (end of the world as they know it? Revelation?)?
“Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening. Struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.” I’ve wondered if the enemies who will be brought together will be Cylons and Humans, or the FF Cylons and S7 Cylons, who seem to have been on opposite sides for a long time. I wished it was the former, but considering who those words are spoken by, I think it’s more likely that this is also about the unification of all the 12 models. This would mean that “he” and “she” refers to a Final Fiver and a Significant 7 Cylon.
However, I think it won’t be Caprica 6 and Tigh, but…and here comes the spoiler… scroll down to read…
*SPOILER*
The spoiler is that Caprica 6 is going to have some kind of relationship with Anders. Of course, you know that she said that Caprica 6 “kind of falls in love” with someone other than Baltar, and that there is a scene she shot where she exchanges punches with someone and it ends up with sex. I think that the speculation started after Tricia Helfer posted the photos from the set that show her and Michael Trucco working together (it says it was for episode 8, but it’s probably for episode 6, since Razor was officially numbered as episodes 4.1 and 4.2) on her blog: http://triciahelfer.com/blog/?page_id=101 I don’t know if there has been some more substantial confirmation of this spoiler, or if this was all based on the photos, and those well known comments she made at San Diego Comic Con in August, around the same time when these photos were taken.
Now, at first glance it seems strange that Anders would fall for another woman a few episodes after promising to Starbuck to love her forever (as we see him in the promos), but Michael Trucco has let out another spoiler in an interview – that Starbuck will not react that well when Anders tells her he will love her always even if she is a Cylon, and that this will cause a disagreement between them that will last for a few episodes. So, my speculation: perhaps Starbuck, terrified with the idea that she might be a Cylon, will go crazy at his implication that she might be one, dump him and tell him something like, how could you ever love a Cylon, and Anders will feel hurt and desperate because what he really wants is an assurance that she could love him even if she finds out he is a Cylon, and now he’ll feel that she will never love him. He will also probably be drawn to Caprica 6 because he is still coping with being a Cylon and, like Tigh, he will want to find out more about Cylons from their perspective. Tricia said that Caprica’s relationship with whoever will start with a fight. Caprica 6 probably still believes that Anders is human, so she might be again projecting her anger and pain about her broken relationship with Baltar, as she did when she exchanged punches with Tigh in Crossroads I. When I first heard the spoiler about Caprica’s new love interest, I thought that it made no sense, because Caprica 6 clearly still loves Baltar, and I thought it made even less sense for it to be Anders, since he loves Starbuck. However, it might make sense exactly for that reason – what brings them together might be pain, desperation, anger, and the “impossible longing” that Hybrid mentioned might NOT be longing for each other…but their respective desperate longing for OTHER PEOPLE, for human beings who haven’t really made them happy so far. Her love for Baltar and his love for Starbuck have left them both very frustrated and neither feels that their feelings have been fully reciprocated. “Impossible” might still be a little strong word, but from the Hybrid’s perspective, a Cylon’s longing for a Human being must be indeed hopeless and forbidden.
Yes, I am implying that both Baltar and Starbuck are human, and I also think it makes the story a lot more interesting as it is – and especially if this Cylon/Cylon relationship really happens… It’s a lot more interesting to have a Cylon torn between a relationship with another Cylon, and a longing for a Human. And don’t forget the Opera House and Kobol, Caprica’s protective feelings towards the hybrid baby Hera… it has been hinted throughout that Caprica 6 and Baltar are supposed to be some kind of surrogate/spiritual parents to Hera, and that Hera is of the utmost importance for the future of Cylons and Humans! How will this play out in season 4, especially if the other Cylons (led by a Six!) now decide that they don’t want to reproduce with Humans?
February 17th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
It finally worked. Sorry about the spoiler, I tried to leave a lot of space for people to scroll down in order to read it, but it seems the board doesn’t recognize spaces!
February 21st, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Wow Ivana! It looks like the auto-spam feature was holding your comments… just because of the multiple links n your comments. Spammers LOVE the links, that’s all! Your theories are AWESOME…. and the spoiler is quite a revelation! I wonder how long it takes for THAT to come out. With luck, we’ll get some kick-ass revelations during the first episode on April 4th that we can enjoy together in Vegas, baby!
http://www.bsgcast.com/?page_id=32
~Matt
February 28th, 2008 at 8:52 am
so guys.
i think the fc is tom zarek…he suffered, he is in a way starbuck – again- my english is too bad too explain what’s in my head…but it feels right
February 28th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
when the hybrid says “gathered on the wings of an Angel.” know i was whatching the last epiosde now it could be the old cylon fight beacuse when the open battle in BSG open TV miniseries so it could be that, also it could be the new cylon fighter ( i dont thnk this) but also the gathered on the wings of an Angel i dont thnk it is STARBUCK, beacasues gather on, i thnk that the hybrid is talking about Galactica beacuse the sheild on Galactica looks like winged angle.
sum thing that i just relives what hybrid says “The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her” could hve ment Tigh and (new) Six but in the trailer Anders met STARBUCK in the cordol were the photos of lost or dead people so it could be that……
know this is the big thin who in FRAK IN HELL is the finel 1 i agrey that tom zarek is the fineal 1 All this has happened before and will happen again, it fits with the show, but im not 100% about this becasuse sum1 send me a slow done verson of the vison of the scene were athena picks up hera and persdent roslin watch them (and if you find tell me beacuse i hve lost thr link to it) know watching it it looks like a women face sure of, it look like STARBUCK or tigh dead wife, but i could b wrong but about 10% of my gut say it is a women and fits with the hybrid says “will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering” fits within tighs wife daeth sceen in season three, but 100% sure that it baltar beacuse of the tv TV miniseries with the sex sceen with baltar and six, getting her up the duf.
(dont read this bit if u dont want to know)
a few days ago i found clips from season 4 on youtube under the name of Battlestar Galactica (2003-2008) — Season 4:, soon has the were put on the soon were took off and if you had sceen them sum of The Hybrid’s Prophecy and more if u can find them again please get in contataced with me at myspace.com/darkknightbekkers, please!!!!!
March 8th, 2008 at 6:03 am
After looking at the last supper like photograph and assuming that Moore was telling the truth that the missing person truly is the 12th Cylon and of course eliminating who is picutred along with Cally because in order for there to be a human/Cylon hybrid there has to be a human involved in that. I have drawn up a ROUGH list of who the 12th Cylon could be. Also taking into account the hybrids line from the extended version of Razor about the 12th Cylon in shadow reaching for the light seeking redemption…..
I was really left with only two possibilities the first is Tom Zarek (which of course would be poetic considering Richard Hatch’s role in the original Battlestar Galactica). He has suffered with the memory of what he did in his past and has tried to explain it enough to various people in order to achieve a level of redemption, or at the very least understanding. His role in this show has always been the man behind the scenes so to speak the one cloaked in shadow as Baltar’s first chief of staff.
The second person who I thought of was Gaeta….his suffering is tied to what happened on New Caprica, and we saw it manifest itself through his ‘trial’ at the hands of the chief, tyrol, starbuck, anders, and the others. I have some trouble connecting some of the other parts of the phrophecy to him however because it seemed to me when that tribunal learned of his role in the resistance if nothing else he did achieve a small level of redemption. But during Baltar’s trial when he perjured himself on the stand you can see that the burden of what he did on New Caprica still haunts him. It is the shadow that is consuming him.
March 11th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
My take….
“…midst confusion, He will find her” …. Mankind finds earth.
“enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.”…What is left of the humans and what is left of the cylons upon arrival at earth will have no choice but to join together to survive.
“And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.” … The one character that has been looking for redemption the whole series has been Lee. He’s been at once both rebelling and challenging his father, all the while looking for his approval, and despite repeated scenes where his father does give him hos approval, it’s not enough. This is a nice parallel with the cylons and their human creators.
“They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginning.” …. The cylons will have to deal with their own rebellion and also the breakdown of unity amongst them that we already see happening. In the end, Hera will be the symbol that convinces them to join with the humans on earth.
“Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.” …Kara wants to lead them to earth. Obviously if they join with the cylons, then humanity no longer exists. It will be humancylonity. Not sure about the not following part. We need more info on that.
“All this has happened before and will happen again. Again, again. Again. Again”
I propose to you that the entire surviving population currently running away from the cylons, are in fact cylon-human hybrids themselves.
Let’s say human colonies left earth, travelled across the galaxy and settled on kobol, where they were hit by some sort of dark age (which Ron Moore confirmed in one of his podcasts) where they lost all knowledge of where they came from and technology. Then they re-evolved to a space fairing race that moved on and colonized the 12 planets, at which point they created the cylons, who eventually rebelled, tried to supplant them, changed their mind and chased them all the way to earth only for both sides to realize with so few left on either side, the only way to survive was to join together. Further, to avoid any renewed racial hostilities between both sides, technology is renounced and the original generation do not teach following generations their true origins, but rather some religion based story that was vague. As a safegaurd, 5 cylons are pre-programmed as protectors/guides of the joined species and each generation has these 5 in the population. When certain conditions are met, the programming kicks in (usually on the road back to earth). As generations go by, technology slowly reintroduces itself for the merged species. They become space faring again and eventually end up at Kobol, and the story starts all over again.
March 14th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Great analysis, guys.
BTW, Nat…you look lovely.
–Jeremy Grunloh
March 22nd, 2008 at 5:40 pm
the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an Angel. Not an end, but a beginningand enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. wacth the new trailer (http://youtube.com/watch?v=MZaiHmjVpSU). it gives us a clue (evil simle)
March 26th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
I think it’s worth noting that immediately before the First Hybrid was destroyed, it was wondering about it’s next incarnation…and then Hera, a true hybrid, was born in the very next chronological episode ‘Downloaded’. If we look upon the First Hybrid as the ‘Metatron’ (the voice of god) that was then reborn in Hera…well, her importance suddenly becomes very clear.
(I accidentally posted this in the part 2 thread first…sorry)
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:31 am
>”he will find her, enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.”
I think this is reference to Leoben and Kara after the chaos of the occupation of New Caprica.
>”enemies now joined as one”
They have sex (Maelstrom)
>”The way forward, at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.
To take the final step to the place “between life and death.” In other words to prepare her to face death.
April 6th, 2008 at 7:51 am
NOT SURE IF THIS IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO POST THIS BUT IT IS A THEORY ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN, ALTHOUGH NOT SPECIFICLY ABOUT THE HYBRID PROPHECY. WHAT IF WHEN THEY FINALLY REACH EARTH, HOW EVER MANY OF THEM ACTUALLY MAKE IT THERE, THEY ARRIVE AT THE TIME OF JESUS. WHAT IF BALTAR IS THE BASIS FOR JESUS. WHETHER OR NOT HE ACTUALLY MAKES IT TO EARTH, HE COULD BE THE BASIS, STORIES PASSED ON ABOUT HIM, AND THE THINGS HE COULD DO, WHICH TO THE PEOPLE OF THAT TIME WOULD SEEM MIRACULOUS, THE THINGS HE HAS BEEN PUT THROUGH, BEING TORTURED BY THE COLONIALS, WOULD BE PASSED ON, AND BECOME A RELIGION, REMEMBER THAT, AT THE TIME JESUS WAS AROUND THE ROMANS RULED PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING, AND HAD FOR QUITE AWHILE, THEY WERE THE NEXT GREAT POWER AFTER THE GREEKS, WHICH WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THEIR BELIEFS IN THE GODS FROM OBVIOUSLY COMING FROM THE 12 COLONIES BEFORE SETTLING ON EARTH. THE ROMAN GODS ARE ALL JUST VARIATIONS ON THE GREEK GODS. THEN HERE COMES BALTAR, OR AT LEAST THE STORIES ABOUT HIM, AND HE SPEAKS OF ONE TRUE GOD, (THANKS TO SIX) “THE” GOD. THE NEXT THING THING YOU KNOW THE WORLD HAS A NEW RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY. JUST A THOUGHT.
April 7th, 2008 at 3:07 am
I have just found your site and enjoyed the videos that I have watched so far. I recently came up with a completely crazy idea about the identity of the final cylon, specifically that the fifth of the final 5 is a specific copy of one of the 7 cylons such as Caprica 6 or Boomer. Boomer and Caprica 6 would fit the bill about seeking redemption, they would also fit with the Judas placement in the Last Supper. While this theory does not fit with what we about four of the final 5 so far (for us they should be called the penultimate 4), I would not put it past Ronald D Moore to come up with such a swerve for the identity of the final cylon
April 7th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
I think I have it.
Starbuck passed through a time portal. There will be a huge battle, when the Solar system is reached, between the remains of the fleet and the cylons with a faction of the cylons joining with the humans. The survivors will stay on Earth together, either to populate it or re-populate it after a disaster.
They will have gone back thousands of years, in our reckoning, and will be the basis of all the myths and religions that emerge through time. They are the Gods and creatures of great power and wisdom that seem to have been on Earth so long ago; Those who have left all the unexplained relics that we find today.
They are the 13th colony that is in their great myth. They are searching for themselves. But , hey, aren’t we all? That is the great cycle of beginning and ending again and again etc.
April 14th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
“join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel”
…The angel doesn’t have to be a person. It could be referring to Battlestar Galactica – the ship itself, leading the way to Earth.
IE: the wings on the BSG logo/shield and the fact that Starbuck gave Adama him Aurora as the figurehead for his model boat.
April 28th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Throughout all these comments, no-one has mentioned “The ship of lights”?
The ‘reimagined’ series has revisited a lot of the major plot lines from the original, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they also revisited the ’ship of lights’ principle (and the Seraphs who occupy it). This would immediately explain the ‘wings of an angel’ part of the hybrid’s monologue, along with many other things:
* The ‘Leobin’ that starbuck saw when she was about to ‘die’ basically admitted that he was not Leobin
* The Seraphs would certainly have the ability to bring starbuck to Earth, and return her to the fleet as a guide
* ‘Head’ six and ‘head’ Baltar as seraphs would make a LOT of sense. head six can clearly exert physical force in our realm, which discounts the possibility of her being purely a hallucination. Also, she has claimed on numerous occsaions that she is “an angel of God sent to guide and to love” Baltar. The seraphs are strongly implied to be angels in the original series, so this ties in.
* The temple of five, discovered on the algae planet, would have been built by the seraphs. They would have the means to see the future, and to predict their arrival as the star went Nova.
As for the final cylon, logic suggests it should be Roslyn. She was on the carmalla when the rest heard the music, explaining why she wasn’t affected (remember she had a funny turn when the ship jumped into the ionian nebula). On top of this, she has a clear prophetic role, and has shared visions with the Athena and caprica six. That said, it seems to me unlikely (ans somewhat cliched) that the producers would place such a major character as one of the final five. My choice otherwise would be Gaeta – he’s been in a position to control (subconciously) much of the fleets movements. Also, remember that Baltar has some dirt on Gaeta (the scene where Gaeta stabs Baltar with a pen) – it’s possible he might suspect him of being one of the five, though something he saw on new caprica.
As for the whole “All this has happened before, and will happen again” thing – it’s pretty clear by now that this refers to some kind of galactic evolution. The human race on earth is likely descended partly from Hera – she has type-O blood (no antigens), and while that is commonplace here on Earth, doc Cottle was shocked by that fact. I suspect that the fleet will be virtually destroyed by the time they reach Earth, and the survivors will occupy a vacant planet, and repopulate it from scratch. The cycle is that the humans on earth will one day destroy their planet (global warming, nuclear war, whatever) and then leave for another star system. Here they will develop an AI race that will rebel, and eventually destroy them, thus beginning the human race all over again.
Starbuck’s role is to lead humanity to Earth. I suspect that her finding Earth will be the conclusion of the first half of S4.
Baltar’s role is to bring together human and cylon on Earth, and to ensure that sufficiently few humans survive such that the cylon are required in some form to provide enough genetic material to repopulate the planet.
One last thing… remember that we now have TWO cylon children; one male and one female. I strongly suspect that, given the ‘first of God’s new generation’ label, Hera and Nicholas will turn out to be the mythical Adam and Eve.
Okay, well that’s my take on it anyway. Either way, it’s shaping up to be an awesome end to a fantastic series. Hopefully “all this will happen again” with Caprica :p
April 28th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Throughout all these comments, no-one has mentioned “The ship of lights”?
I don’t, because you know something — I don’t want some deus ex machina flying chandelier reset button coming out of the next nebula we come across. It’s just a cop-out to have the magic aliens come along and fix everything — never mind, folks, there’s no cost, consequence or accountability for anything you’ve done. You’re nothing more than pawns in a cosmic chess game that was ordained from the beginning of time. Can’t think of anything more depressing or anti-human. Or more of a finger to the intense sense of psychological and narrative realism that makes BSG so remarkable.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:12 am
“And amidst confusion, you will find her… Enemies brought together by the apostle, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, once impenetrable, yet inevitable.”
I’m wondering if this is Leoban finding Starbuck – this looks like it will happen in the episode following Escape velocity (episode 7 I think, counting razor as the first 2).
May 10th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
[...] auch sowas wie "ans Ende der Geschichte" bedeuten? Dazu empfehle ich mal dieses Video: BSGcast: Razor DVD – The Hybrid’s Prophecy | Battlestar Galactica Setzt sich damit auseinander was der Hybrid in Razor gesagt wird. Das "You lead them to the [...]
November 18th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Hey, guys! Sorry for being so late, but I just found this site
“And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.”
You guys said that it would make sense to be Baltar now, but I have to disagree. By the hybrid saying, “will claw toward the light”, I immediately thought of: resurrection. Not the Cylons resurrecting, but a dead Colonial being brought back from the dead. This makes me believe that the Cylon is dead. Not only that, but also the fact that D’Anna keeps telling us that the final cylon is not in the fleet, which definitely eliminated a lot of characters. I, at first, thought, “it has to be Dee or Gaeta if it’s not a main-character, cause if it’s just Hot Dog or something, that’d be SO stupid.” But…Dee and Gaeta are in the fleet. Which brings me to dead characters.
We have a lot of them. Lots of people are saying Billy, but…what does he need redemption for? And, then it hit me. Ellen Tigh. She is dead, she betrayed her husband (or you could say saved her husband, actually, but still gave info to the Cylons). She needs redemption for that. I think the “will only come in the howl of terrible suffering” just refers to the pain of being resurrected. We saw the extreme pain that resurrection brings Cylons. While the Resurrection Hub is now destroyed, the Final Five would obviously not resurrect there anyways. Again, this theory only works if Cylons can resurrect. Obviously, Ellen would have known she was a Cylon for a long time, since she died in the beginning of Season 3. So, even if the Resurrection Hub effects the Final Five’s resurrection, it doesn’t matter, cause at the time Ellen would have resurrected, the Hub would still be around. So, my pick is Ellen from what we know from the show.
Did that make any sense at all?
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