REVISIT: BSGcast’s “Earth Explored”
Our last regularly scheduled episode until 2009, this was a very special episode of BSGast where we examined the single biggest mind-frak Ron has yet to unleash on us: Earth. When is it? What’s happened? Is it really earth? Was that the Brooklyn Bridge? Why is Baltar so awesome? Matt and Nat give a shot at all those questions, and then some to help spark even more debate on what the hell is going on!?
June 21st, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Yay, more BSGcast.
Anywho, I personally believe it was Earth. I dont know when, i dont think i even want to guess at the time. But i think its Sydney they landed on.
Check out the comparison:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/853103/img/853103.jpg
June 21st, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I’m looking to acquire a Basestar with a full crew complement (centurions, raiders, heavy raiders) and a full load of ammunition (nuclear, classical, etc.). In return, I’m ready to trade the fifth and final Cylon. This offer won’t last long! I’m also prepared to give you the way to Earth for the entire lines of Sixes and Eights.
P.S. I would throw in my teleportation technology for Starbuck! Frak wrong show! Can I please have Starbuck anyway?
June 21st, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Cool beans! Can’t wait to see this.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:12 am
I think in addition to the Question of is the planet they landed on Earth, there are the following questions
1) When in Earths history did they arrive
2) is Earth the promised land?
I think that the main argument against it being Earth is that we did not (a) see Earth clearly from Space or (b) see a recognisable landmark. The arguments for it being Earth are that the constellation map was correct and they were led to it by the final five and Starbucks Viper, which indicates at the very lesat that hey are in Earths solar system
Now assuming the planet is Earth when did they arrive?. Given that constellations change over time and we recognise the constellations IMO it has to be close to the present day, probably a few centuries into the future (Off topic, the original BSG was around present day as well, imagine if they came accross the original Battlestar Galactica with original series Apollo and Starbuck in charge
)
As for the question is Earth the promised land, I have to say if this is Earth then no, as Roslin is still alive and one of the few constants throughout the series is that Roslin is the dying leader and the leader is meant to die BEFORE they enter the promised land
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:23 am
Hey Matt and Nat,
I really enjoy your explanation and interpretation of the episodes. Your casts for the new BSG episode are the second thing I long the watch every week after the new BSG episode itself.
Anyway, back to topic.
I am pretty sure this is Earth. First, it would be a bad move to find a new planet and than move away and keep searching in the last 10 episodes left. It fits much better that the remaining season will be about the “What Now?” factor and maybe dealing with the incpreased suicide levels throughout the Fleet
Second, even though the buildup to it was rushed, the sequence with Fleet approaching Earth and the celebrations was tearjerking to me at least. Point is, they spent all the emotional load in that scene and revealing this is not Earth and finding a new place would simply not have the same impact both from the character point of view and the viewer point of view.
As for the time period…the ruins on Earth either belong to us or belongs to the previous/future “cycle”. The reasons for the ruins being us are mainly dramatic: It connects BSG to our reality (Something which RDM mentioned would happen), relates to “All Along the Watchtower” and is a good way of achieving those ends without pulling a “Galactica 1980″.
The reason why it is not us but a previous/future is simply a single thing I couldn’t get out of my head: The domed building that Starbuck, Athena and Helo were walking towards at the end looked…odd. I am not sure what I mean with this but to me, that building was not “ours”. It was something else. Even something foreign. Maybe its the Temple of Aurora, mentioned at the start of the episode out of nowhere. Maybe its the first Opera House from which the one in Kobol was modeled after. At any rate, that is the only bit of reason why I don’t think the ruins are ours.
Whatever the period is, those ruins are not ancient. I been reading a book (and watched a similar documentary) about what happens to our civilisation if humans go away and one thing it makes clear that cities in general tend to crumble relatively fast. Particularly newer buildings are not resistant to continued attack of natural forces in an unmaintained environment. Even in a high-radiation zone, nature and erosion would take its toll (as we see in cities around Chernobyll (sp?)) and those ruins, while looking weathered didn’t seem ancient like the ruins on Kobol.
That being said, they weren’t done by Cavil’s forces either (like some speculated in the net). If they found and nuked Earth, the result would resemble Caprica – nuclear haze, slow death of the flora and fauna and the overall collapse of the ecosystem. Now we didn’t see much of Earth yet but we did see growing shrubs and the air, while coudy and cold, was not hazy or had any other indicator of recent nuclear explosion. Plus, as mentioned above, they seemed weathered. Based on these observations, I will say those ruins are between 50 to 100/150 years old give or take.
What happened? Obvious answer is that us “…frakking maniacs blew it up!”. But that seems too easy and inconsequential. Since the characters in Revelations seemed to suspect the control of a greater force, I will go in that direction. I feel the destruction of Earth is directly related to the destruction of the Colonies. Basically Earth acted as a trigger of sorts. Maybe this is related to the Final Five, why they are the “Five Lights of the Apocalypse” and maybe Earth is the reason why the Final Cylon hungers for redemption. I am not sure. Perhaps the “greater force” mentioned above is some kind of a failsafe mechanism that ensures the Cycle goes on. The Colonials did not seem curious about Earth prior to the destruction of the Colonies. Perhaps the destruction of the Colonies was to drive the Colonials to a now-depopulated Earth so that a new cycle could begin. Maybe the Final Five made their mark upon Cylons to ensure they would act as the catalyst for the journey of the Colonials.
I know its quite a scattered theory. Hope it made sense
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:43 am
Maybe its a Head Earth. It wouldn’t be the first time they’ve seen a head image of Earth (Tomb of Athena).
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:36 am
I wonder if we will see Crazy Starbuck now
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:45 am
If all the religion, books and stories point to Earth being a real living place of promises, then if this is Earth then (and i believe it is) then something disastrous has happened after all the road markers (temples etc.) were built.
I’d agree with Neakal on the Cavil theories.. There would be a lot more radiation and debris in the air if this was recent. Although I don’t discount that Cavil and the other Cylons could be in the area hiding behind the Moon or Earth itself.
If the destruction of Earth triggered the first journey to the stars, and given ‘All this has happened before, and will happen again’, we all assumed that they would find Earth together, Human and Cylon, form a peace and the cycle begins anew. But what if the cycle has been broken. Some unforseen event on Earth has caused its end too early?.
Some questions to throw out there.
If we assume the event happened recently, would that coincide with the first Cylon war?
Did a basestar decide to find Earth way back then and nuke it? Perhaps the old-Hybrid ship?
Is Earth the real source of material for the 12 models?
Did any survivors evacuate? Leave any more road signs behind?
Anyway,, ramble over =D
June 22nd, 2008 at 9:42 am
Excellent vid. There have been a lot of discussion about the bridge. Someone pointed out the design of the bridge over at Sci-Fi BBoard, someone even posted a picture of a bridge in Australia that also matched the bridge design. And a lot of people from Brooklyn has posted, saying that the cityscape featured doesn’t match New York. So, who knows?
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 am
Great vid as always guys.
I definately believe is Earth. There is no doubt it my mind that it is. Although I highly doubt that they’re standing on New York. We had this discussion over on the GateWorld forums when the eppy first aired and it seems far more likely to be Sydney Australia.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:13 am
Matt and Nat, I have to thank you for the great show you have been putting together for the last year and a bit. It has been a great thing to watch (as well as read the comments) since it has given me a better chance to see things about the show which I haven’t been able to notice before, or in ways I might not have looked at before. This is something which you really did a great job of doing in this little episode
So for that, I thank you for the great work. More so seeing as Australia doesn’t get the show until a while after the US & Britain.
As to the episode…yeah you nailed it well with a lot of the views I have on the way things came together (more so the New York thing…which you could have made an ape joke about…). Now to see how the final five relate to what has been seen, how Starbuck will be the one who dooms the human race (which looks to have been the case since their hope was crushed so badly when they got to Earth), and what the other models will say or do regarding the discovery of Earth.
One final thing, what is the chance of you guys doing an episode about the music of the series?
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Another gr8 video from you 2 little geniuses & a cool explanation too
Must ask if indeed this is the case what ever happened 2 their history? You think something like creating killer robots & then they blowi up their home planet, the saviours leaving later 2 join up with human friendly Cylon & finally creating the 12 Colonies might be impartment thing 2 write down in the history books or at lest make a golden rule #Please reframe from creating killer robots.
After all they where a space going race. Just a little crazy thought.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Haha Vancouver like waistland… You got that right!!!! We’ve only had 3 days of sort of sun in the past 6 weeks!!! I think that’s the graville bridge and they’re all standing on granville island. Either that or they are on some part of English bay and looking at the burrard bridge. They’d get a good ocean shot that way.
I just can’t wait to see when they take a raptor into the city to find out what happened. Only to find Will smith there looking for a cure to a zombie virus!!!
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Matt and Nat you ROCK! lol That’s all I have to say.
TheOnes, what a nice catch. Until I saw your picture I didnt know what bridge people were talking about. Now I can see it.
That made me realize what I was looking at was a wasteland of a modern city. At first I thought they were old ruins, and carcasses of old space ships, but now that I look at it again, and thanx to your pic comparison, I can definitely say it’s the remains of a modern city next to water, like Sydney, New York, San Francisco or Vancouver.
Man this is gonna fire up some crazy cool theories. Let me give it a shot.
It could very well be that Earth suffered another calamity, a huge scale nuclear war. Well what we know of Earth is that the 13th Tribe went there after they left Kobol. And what we see is the remains of a modern city that looks like it’s been nuked. So it is my guess the 13th Tribe was attacked and had to go through another Exodus.
It is possible that during this calamity, the cycle was repeating itself. I.e That Earth is nothing but another Kobol later on in the Cycle. So the 13th Tribe lived in peace and prosperity for a long time (like on Kobol) and then SOMETHING happened that caused a huge war and calamity, and either a) everybody is dead or more likely b) there was an Exodus. This exodus could have been of 12 Tribes (13th splitting into 12 Tribes, cycle starting over) or simply the exodus of the 13th.
Who attacked them? Cylons? Perhaps the 13th ended up creating Cylon who rebelled just like happened to the other 12 Tribes of Kobol.
But I mean we have to start tying up lose ends at some point. Where is the connection here between the 13th Tribe and the Cylons, and Kobol and the 12 Tribes? Where is the connection with the Lords of Kobol and the One True God / “He Who Cannot Be Named”?
See Pythia writes about the Exodus of the 13th Tribe, as happened some 3600 to 4000 years before the fall of the 12 colonies. Now the question is, is the fall of the 12 Colonies and the journey of the Battlestar Galactica and the Colonial Fleet the same journey of the 13th Tribe as it left Kobol? Is this wehre the Cycle starts over? Or are we still in the same Cycle, and does it end at Earth? If so, did it begin on Kobol or did it begin on Earth?
I think we now have some major pieces given to us for making the puzzle. We now know Earth is a wasteland. Now we have to incorporate this new info into the big picture. See if earth is a wasteland, it means the 13th Tribe is either dead or had another Exodus, which makes it harder for us to exactly see where the Cycle ends and starts.
My best shot right now is this:
For the Cycle to end, we must envision it’s beginning. And the beinning must be either a new “Kobol” or a new “Earth” like paradise. THat’s how things began. Things were not always bad, at some point in the cycle things are like heaven, and we know this from the scriptures and the utopia like life on Kobol. Since things have been as bad as they can get in BSG, I mean the human race and the Cylon race have both been on the verge of extintion many times, and virtually at war for survival throughout the 4 Seasons of BSG, then we must assume somehow, things will have to get to a paradise-like condition for the Cycle to start over. I mean, a big change must occur, from such negative events, to more positive state of living. Now, it is very possible, and in fact has been hinted to us by several of the cast, that things wont be pretty on the way to that paradise-like state. It is in fact my belief that pretty much everybody will die. However, what remains, will be the start of the new paradise-like life, and the start of the new cycle. Now how that will happen, I dont know.
But something just popped into my mind. 4000 years or however long a “BSG cycle” is, is nothing compared to the life of Earth or the Sun (billions of years). So this means in each Cycle, Earth and Kobol dont change much. Meaning, their position with relation to other star systems, their environment etc doesnt change much.
This can only mean that Kobol will forever be Kobol and Earth will be Earth. And the BSG Cycle has humans and cylon make the journey back and forth between these two planets. Unless of course, new cycles dont repeat exactly the same way. So meaning, the 12 constellations, the 12 Tribes, etc that doesnt necessarily have to all be the same in the next cycle. Perhaps there will only be 2 or 3 Tribes the next cycle, and a planet with different constellations.
My point is though, if we have to link Earth, Kobol and the 12 Colonial planets, then that means that the exodus of the 13th Tribe from Earth (after the calamity) means they went back to Kobol, while the “new” 13th Tribe (Galactica) comes to a wasteland-like Earth. Then the 13th Tribe stars a new paradise-like life on Kobol, the the Cycle repeats there. Meanwhile on Earth, it is possible everybody dies (Galactica and co.)
But then, the cycle remains a bit unlinked. There has to be a link between the Galactica and company, and the new cycle. They cant just all die, or it would make all the events in the series pointless. So there must be some survivers who make it to the new cycle. But how?
The thing I dont get is there are like 40,000 humans and probably a lot less cylons in the current fleet that made it to Earth. And we will assume most will die, so if a new cycle begins with them, it’ll be a LONG time before Earth gets to be populated by billions, witch such modern cities as we see in the ruins (like New York). That’d mean like another 2000 or more years of advancement of the civilization on Earth. But that’s cutting halfway into the next cycle right? By that time the 12 Tribes leave Kobol for the 12 colonies…how do we link these?
Anyways my brain hurts now…I hope I’ve given you food for thought and you can make better sense of it all
Oh and if you wanna come play “Match the bridges” game we are having at BSG Pilots, click here
~Adalla
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Who is the Final Cylon?
OK, where is Conor Widdowes? Because I’d love to see Boxey walk into CIC and snarl, “Bet you fraking bastards wish you’d paid me a little more attention. Do you have any idea how much I hate you all right now?”
And guys, get over the fraking Brooklyn Bridge already! Everybody knows they’re standing in the ruins of Sudney Opera House, looking back over Circular Quay towards the ruins of the Harbour Bridge.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Adalla said:
See Pythia writes about the Exodus of the 13th Tribe, as happened some 3600 to 4000 years before the fall of the 12 colonies. Now the question is, is the fall of the 12 Colonies and the journey of the Battlestar Galactica and the Colonial Fleet the same journey of the 13th Tribe as it left Kobol? Is this wehre the Cycle starts over? Or are we still in the same Cycle, and does it end at Earth? If so, did it begin on Kobol or did it begin on Earth?
I’m trying to constuct a timeline here. I was watching Kobol’s Last Gleaming parts 1 and 2 again today, and Billy says that the ruins found on Kobol are estimated to be about 2000 years old, and Elosha said that coincides with the exodus of the tribes from Kobol to found the 12 colonies. Can someone straighten me out on the time frame of the history here?
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Something that’s always bugged me since the series started. How can the scrolls possibly chronicle the first trip to earth if the documents were on the 12 colonies. What I mean is… wouldn’t someone have had to go with the origional 13th tribe to earth. Chronical thier journey, then come aaaallllll the way back to the 12 colonies in order to relay the account? How do the scrolls chronical the journey unless it was them leaving earth and going to the 12 colonies (or Kobol). Does that make sense? The only other way they could have that information was if it was channelled information. But given the state of earth in this episode I would say it was a personal account of pythia after the 13 tribes left earth.
Earth is the one with 12 constellations, not the 12 colonies. Earth is the planet with the number 12 running wild, like 12 signs of the zodiac, 12 tribes of isreal, 12 gods of the egpytian pantheon, 12 months of the year etc… The 12 colonies must have originated from Earth. All of thier mythos is based on the star patterns and history of earth and earths solar system. It all makes sense that they would have come from earth and not from Kobol. The final 5 could have been created by humans to survive the apocalypse, and it was thier dna that was used to create the other 7 models. However no one knows for sure how the final 5 even got to the colonies so it is very possible that they were either sent into space with pre programmed memories that would be triggered upon arrival on caprica. Or they reincarnated as human, even though they were origionally born on earth.
Perhaps there was some war, like, an army similar to the nazi army that destroyd Earth in an obviously devastating war. But they reincarnated as cylons only to continue thier so called “holy war” on another world. But since they have no memory of thier past lives they come back to earth no knowing was really happened. Perhaps the final 5 were created by humans of earth as a back up plan to ensure the survival of the species incase something like that happened again. Just a theory.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:17 pm
If there is in fact a repeating cycle I would be curious to see what Earth’s cylon centurians look like. Hope they show them.
For the cycle to work, technology has to devolve so there is a sparse record of what happened. There was no real records about the exodus or life before the Exodus except for vague verses. Obviously if they could travel from world to world they could take pictures or have first hand accounts and records of the exodus. Somehow all this was all lost. I guess it could be like if you dropped a mechanic and a modern car sometime in the distant past. Even though he has a car and knows how a car works, he couldn’t get all the parts or manufacture the items needed to make another one or fix the one he has or get fuel. At some point it would fade away due to overuse, rust, parts breaking down or it is destroyed. Same thing will happen to the fleet (So long Galactica?)
Maybe they will go back to Kobal, eventually loose all their technology due to age, thousand of years later they get back to where they can travel through space and will re-settle either earth or the 12 colonies.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Dear Matt and Nat,
I really appreciate the podcast – I’ve been watching it for a long time now, and have really appreciated your style. Thought this last one was particularly cleverly put together – please extend my compliments to those you work with as well.
I am going to make a very different style argument than I’m accustomed to seeing here. As this is my first post, I hope you’ll find it worthwhile. I’m putting myself in the place of the writers and asking the question of where we go from here to an ending on the basis of narrative requirements primarily.
So, the main question that is on my mind presently is the identity of the final Cylon.
a. The first seven cylons more or less appeared in the same story sequence: Enter new character, they start acting suspiciously, and then their dangerous side and nature were revealed.
b. The subsequent four were revealed all of a sudden, were people we had invested into, retained their human commitments (though all were ultimately transformed by this discovery).
c. In order to not bore us with a ‘been there, done that’ story for the last one, the writers will need to introduce the final cylon in a completely different way. I have three guesses:
i. Someone we have never seen yet.
ii. Someone we would not expect (Alive OR Dead)
iii. Someone who is activated in a heretofore never seen way.
From a purely story side of things, I suspect that the ‘unexpected person’ concept won’t work – RDM has shaken our expectations so many times that we’re becoming desensitized to it. Someone we’ve never ever seen would be fun, frankly – it’d shake the cast up during the endgame. However, while I think this would be good, I don’t think it’ll be the route pursued. This leaves us with the most mind blowing activation Battlestar has ever seen – and knowing RDM, he’s going to get this much done right.
I suspect that the Final Cylon will be every bit as different from the Foremost Four were from the Standard Seven. I suspect that the final Cylon will be core to the final 12 episodes (duh). I’ve increasingly found the concept of the final Cylon wreaking untold havock on the humans maliciously a convenient way to accomplish a shakeup of the typical ‘Cylons jump in, shoot like crazy, and humans die’ method of getting battle sequences.
Another component of the Final Cylon to be considered is gender. I’m giving a 95% confidence rating to the Final Cylon being Female for one simple reason: The role of the Greek polytheistic pantheon in the Galactica story. We have seven male skin-jobs accounted for: Cavil, Doral, Leoben, Simon, Saul, Sam, and Galen. We have four female cylons: Caprica, Sharon, D’anna, and Tori. The Greek Pantheon is composed of 5 female and 7 male gods, and all we need is a woman to have a complete imitation. Besides, BSG has always tried to be gender representative, so a near balance within the Cylons is in line with their writing to date.
Parallels with the Pantheon are strong already: Sharon = Athena. Chief = Hephaestus. Caprica Six = Aphrodite. Beyond that, it’s guesswork. Leoben = Hermes? Cavil = Hades? D’Anna = Artimis or Hera? If my guess about a female final Cylon is right, then Zeus must already be revealed. Tigh is the most likely contender for that role in my opinion (a cool thought if I do say so myself…)
In any case, look for the 5th Cylon reveal at the mid season cliff hanger. Just to give them something to do, it seems likely that Boomer and Chief will be together by the 3rd or 4th episode and be involved in the process – Boomer needs to come back in a big way for this to end well, and they’ll need to get going sooner rather than later to make that work.
Anyways, I’m irritated at the 6 month mid-season break. But oh well. I just hope they don’t bomb the ending of this awesome TV series. It’s been a ride, and I’ve enjoyed taking it with you all.
Appendix on Astronomy: We could be light-years from Earth and still have the same constellations. Not many, but enough to get to some of the local star systems. Nonetheless, Matt’s got me convinced that it is in all likelihood Earth. As for timing, you can get from this story to the present, not the present to this story, so this is either the past or an alternate universe (the latter being unlikely)
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:09 am
Thanks for the kind words, Signa Jade! And Thanks for posting; it’s a serious compliment that you talk about those we work with… because we don’t
It’s just the two of us shooing and editing every BSGcast! So thank you very much for thinking that we have a crew working with us!!
For a first post, that’s a great one… alternate universe? Man, wouldn’t that just suck… I hope Ron knows better than to cop out with that one
~Matt
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:14 am
That is correct Kaybrid. the Exodus of the 12 Tribes from Kobol dated to 2000 years before the Fall of the 12 Colonies, and the ruins on Kobol carbon dating showed that. On the Algea planet where the Temple of Five resided (before the nova destroyed the system) was 4000 years old, so 2000 years older than the time of the Exodus of the 12 Tribes. THat means they left Kobol 2000 years earlier and built that Temple on that planet while on their journey to Earth.
Signa Jade, great first post
I agree that Ron Moore and co. will reveal the Final Cylon to us in a pretty shocking new manner. I just hope that dramatic effect and TV ratings dont get more priority than writing a good story. Ron Moore has been known to make things up just for dramatic effect, such as when he had like 40 or 50 Vipers fly in a battle when in reality there were only like 20 or something, basically not even half that number. And he admitted it himself, it was done since it “looked cooler that way”.
I just hope they dont write the Final Cylon reveal primarily based on how cool it’d be, but more importantly, how it’d best fit the whole story and contribute to it.
From the way the Final Four (except Miss Cylon Goddess) are basically GOOD people, with good hearts, and with compassion, much more so than either the Seven or humans. At least, in their new found states. Perhaps in the past they had all sinned, but I noticed in Season 4 Tigh, Anders and Tyrol are very much like angelic beings. They dont want to hurt neither human nor Cylon. They truly are becoming more and more like their higher selves as seen in the Opera House visions.
See, my understanding is that the Opera House beings clad in white light are the higher selves of the Final Five. Basically, they are in a higher realm of existance, beyond death, in their full wisdom and knowledge. While the Final Five are also present in the physical realm, but they are restricted by their physical states and bodies. So basically they have a link to their higher selves, but they only have a fraction of the knowledge and wisdom that they do have in the other realm.
Having said this, I believe the Final Cylon is of incredible importance and a key to the entire series. The person who will bring wisdom, understanding and eventually peace to all beings, whether human or cylon. Of course this wont be easy, and there will be bloodshed and war etc, but I believe that will be the purpose of the Final Cylon and the Final Five in general, to bring enlightenment to the human and cylon race.
This supports well my theory that the Final Five are of a race of beings (13th Tribe) that is highly evolved spiritually, full of compassion and wisdom, and that these beings were once hybrids, half human half cylon like Hera, and their purpose is to guide the “new cycle” of humans and cylons to evolve.
With the Hub destroyed, with Cylon and Human lines being broken, with alliances being formed more easily, their journeys towards Earth joining up, all of this leads to the integration of the Cylon with Humans, and to the natural evolution of both species, as they breed and create the next generation of beings, of which Hera is the first.
And I have a feeling the Hybrid from Razor has something to do with this evolution. He was part of the evolution of machine into a half-machine half human cyclon.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:20 am
So, here is the answer to all our questions, When the show starts again we get a screen which says Previously on Classic Battlestar Galactica and then shows Muffet the robot daggit wake up and all of reimagined Battlestar Galactica was nothing more than a Mushie induced dream sequence.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 am
Great Vid!
I always find it funny when people walk in place for green screen, it’s just lolz to me.
I want a Green Tredmil, it might help . though I feel it would be hard to find.
I hope we get more skit type vids later!
Damn Cliffhangers…:(
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:39 am
When I first saw this episode and D’Anna said that there were only four cylons remaining in the fleet I immediately assumed that meant the final one was already onboard the basestar. But I am to think who/and in what way would be the most shocking revelation of the final cylon. Imagine Tigh touring a basestar, and walking into a room and seeing Ellen standing there in front of him. Or Roslin finding Elosha there. Ron Moore likes to keep us guessing and on the edge of our seats.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:09 am
You guys have got to get together with galacticacast and give us more parodies. Love your work!
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:10 am
Signa Jade Says
Zeus must already be revealed. Tigh is the most likely contender for that role in my opinion (a cool thought if I do say so myself…)
YES! I could not agree more! Think of all the children that Zeus produced from his daliences with mortal women, Tigh/Zeus got Six pregnant. Maybe the key to the final five is that they are cabable of breeding- not only with humans but with cylons as well.
Second, everybody keeps asking about the humans time line, has the show ever really presented a Cylon timeline? To me that is where the secret lies. Did the same technology that created the Skinjob cylons recreate Starbuck and her Fighter? Why is that fighter brand new- Did it “heal” itself?
I think the final arch of the show will tell the cylon history because thier evolution into “skinjobs” may hold the mystery to what happened.
Also, has anyone speculated that Pythia was the original hybrid? First, she speaks in riddles and jibberish. Second when they show scenes of the “under goo workings” it reminds me of a serpent/sea creature.
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:42 am
Picking up from earlier, regarding the alternate universe possibility, I agree – it would be a cop out for the writers to go in that direction. However, I’d rather they do that then do a halfway job at getting their story linked up with ours. I am reminded of Tolkien’s goal in his stories of Middle Earth: An Origins myth for England. My understanding was that the intermingling of Hobbits, Dwarves, Men, and the few Elves that stayed behind were the forebears of England – Rohan especially had the traits of Proto-Anglo-Saxons. I suspect that RDM will go in that direction ultimately, with the intermingling of cylons and humans resulting in our world. However, the writers will need to do a very creative job at explaining the loss of technology for me to be okay with that ending – I can forgive them doing that poorly, but it would in fact need to be forgiveness.
As an aside, an interesting component of Revelations was President Adama’s comment that all because lying and decieving had been the way of the past, they didn’t need to be the way of the future. This clashes with the theology of cycles that ran so deep in Season 1 and in Razor. It may be nothing, but we may see them building up a new theme, not of fatalistic repetition of cycles, but rather of power to change cycles built up in bits and pieces during the remaining 12 episodes. This would be fully appropriate, because it’d be kind of depressing if, after all the tragic events of the series are concluded, a fatalism about their inevitability was written in stone. Lee’s breaking the cycle might have interesting ramifications – but, then again, maybe this is reading too much into one section of dialog.
Regarding my mistake about people working with you – Ha! That’s funny! I’m impressed though – I’ve done enough video editing to know it isn’t easy and assumed that the people who apparently came on board for the BSGCast about Season 3 were my supposed ‘behind the scenes people.’ Thanks for taking it as a compliment!
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:50 am
Adalla Says:
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:14 am
I agree that Ron Moore and co. will reveal the Final Cylon to us in a pretty shocking new manner. I just hope that dramatic effect and TV ratings dont get more priority than writing a good story. Ron Moore has been known to make things up just for dramatic effect, such as when he had like 40 or 50 Vipers fly in a battle when in reality there were only like 20 or something, basically not even half that number. And he admitted it himself, it was done since it “looked cooler that way”.
I just hope they dont write the Final Cylon reveal primarily based on how cool it’d be, but more importantly, how it’d best fit the whole story and contribute to it.
—
To clarify, I am not talking about TV ‘cool’ when I talk about this. All I am driving at is that if they simply duplicate what happened before, we will be here talking about how not impressed we were with the result. Even if they do something similar in the 5th Cylon reveal to what happened before, they will need to do it highly creatively to do it justice, or else we will be disappointed. That is the kind of ‘cool’ I am speaking of. Your challenging of the shallow TV ‘cool’ (Jump the Shark Nebula!) is something I agree with.
June 23rd, 2008 at 7:04 am
Best..BSGCast…Ever!
June 23rd, 2008 at 7:25 am
Hahaha… Yeah, Weker1, walking in place has been the bane of my green screening for years now… a treadmill is TOTALLY the solution, but they’re usually loud and it ruins the audio. Looks great, though!
~Matt
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:28 am
Great Cast Matt and Nat. As Always, you guys rock.
As for theories about what will happen. I’m sure anything I could come up with has already been said. My guess for final cylon changes daily. Today my guess is Zak Adama. Leoben did say “Adama is a cylon” But, I’m sure by tomorrow, I’ll think it’s someone else. There are totally valid reasons for it to be like a billion different people.
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:48 am
this could just be me, and is very inspired by Sigma Jade’s post, but aren’t we missing the blindingly obvious?
if, as Sigma said, Zeus has already been revealed then maybe we have known from season 1.
William Adama.
if we take the largely discounted ‘Adama is a cylon’ notion that Leoben came out with as a start.
Adama is even called Zeus several times, starting in Bastille Day.
as likely as any other person, i’m still clinging to my ‘Seelix is teh final cylon!!!1!!’ idea though…
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:25 am
I’ve also been thinking along similar lines to Sigma Jade on the Greek pantheon connection. I also think Sigma has got right the basic correspondences. I think D’Anna should is most likely to be Artemis (Xena warrior princess should really = the goddess of the hunt?), although there is a problem with her supposed virginal status after those threesomes with Baltar and 6.
What I really wanted to note though was that this leaves an obvious candidate for the final Cylon: Apollo. The clues in the name you see (doh!). Just to play on a couple of correspondences for a moment Apollo is said not to be able to lie, which indeed fits his character in the series. Of course if Apollo is the final cylon this opens up all kinds of continuity problems.
So here’s a possible solution. Assuming that Tigh is Zeus (I agree a great idea!), then Apollo mythically is the son of Zeus and Hera (admittedly more problems here) so that makes Apollo Tigh’s son!! Now this would be an interesting / explosive plot line. Let’s say that Tye is really the father of Apollo and that Adama has for some reason adopted him (perhaps unbeknownst to Tigh). Now this would really help to explain Adama’s breakdown when confronted with Tigh being a Cylon, because you see that means that his son Apollo is half Cylon too. It also perhaps adds extra spice to Apollo sticking Tigh in the launch tube and all the talk of killing one’s father.
Now there’s many problems with this theory not least some quite poor correspondences being set up with the rest of the Cylons to figures in the Pantheon, but dramatically it works for me, and leaves open one last shock with a plausible, if slightly soap-opera back-story.
PS – If you want to play the pantheon correspondence game a good starting point is: http://www.webgreece.gr/greekmythology/olympiangods/index.html
Also remember there are many minor deities which may mean that not all of the 12 need be Cylons. Perhaps some of the humans are linked to deities without really being Cylons (if that doesn’t complicate things too much).
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:50 am
Man, these are great theories!
What can I really say to all of these? Well, here’s food for thought.
There’s one very important thing that no one seems to have mentioned yet:
CAPRICA!
Yes, the spin-off series, which is a prequel. Let’s all keep this in mind when forming our speculation. It’s important because it will deal with the formation of the cylons. Now these are the “toasters” that we’re familiar with, but there’s more. Current postings and interviews state that Joseph Adama and the Greystone family will be prime movers in the Cylon creation, and they will attempt to create artificial models of their daughters, who were killed in an automobile accident. If I remember correctly, it’s Joe Adama who becomes disgusted with the look of one of the models.
This means that at least one Cylon model is based on Bill Adama’s dead sister Tamara. I wonder if it’s one of the Seven, and if so, which one?
This does rearrange what we know to be true at this point. It means that the idea of skinjobs is not something the Cylons came up with on their own. This may well have been what caused them to rebel in the first place, sparking the First Cylon War.
For our speculation, this means that we know for sure the Cylons (as we know them today) originated, in some degree, on the 12 Colonies. The Final Five are still up for grabs, as I believe they predate the whole scenario and may have even planted the idea of the Cylons into the minds of those who made them.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
well…prepare for the fleet to explode and die…i mean all thes sad people have been crammed for years and now this…well at least teh depression Baltars importance with his whole one god thing will just go through the roof:>…or it might hit the fan:
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
I agree – BEST BSGCAST EVER! It gave your ideas and observations so much more power because you were there in the desolation…you guys are amazing. Amazing. THANKS!
Hmmm…I don’t know that Caprica the series can be said to have any relevance with regard to the final cylon because there was no green light for that show until quite recently.
I like the idea of breaking the cycle – I think that’s going to be key to the end. Rings true to me.
I like the idea of the final cylon being enlightened and wise rather than evil and bloodthirsty (YUCK)
I like the idea of a new type of reveal for the final cylon. Speculating on how that will be done is as hard as trying to guess who it is. I can’t see Shaw ‘reincarnating’ as Hera – how the hell would that occur? But this is sci-fi after all. And having Kendra Shaw as a partly Asian heritage person is too much of a coincidence I think. Or maybe not. I agree it’ll be a woman.
There are a lot of loose ends to tie up. Whatever happens, Starbuck, Roslin and Baltar all play roles in it. The cycle will be broken. Many characters will die. Cavil etc. will return, and Boomer will switch sides. I don’t trust D’Anna. I don’t think they’re on Earth right now. I have no proof, I just don’t. I think it’s a red herring. I think RDM is saving that card for the end.
Tootie
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
About the Final Cylon, honestly with the amount of clues they have given us, we can really narrow it down. Of course, that’s assuming that what the cast and crew say are not lies, which is entirely possible
But so far we have been told that the Final Cylon:
1) was with us from the beginning of the show. That excludes Ellen Tigh, Kendra Shaw, Hera, Bull Dog, Tom Zarek, and Seelix, possibly Admiral Cain.
2)We are told the FC is not in the Fleet during Revelations. That excludes Gaeta, Dualla (yes folks, so much for these two being FCs as most theories suggested), Doc Cottle (this one is busted too), Starbuck, Lee Adama, William Adama.
3)D’anna makes fun of Roslin about her being the FC, and barely cares about Baltar dying, no real concern there. She doesnt look twice a Helo either. So…pretty safe to assume Roslin, Helo and Baltar are not the FC either. What supports this is that RDM said the FC is not in the “Last Supper” picture, and these 3 are in it.
Now who the frak is left then right? The only 2 that I can think of that dont get exluded by the 3 things I mentioned above are Zak Adama and the Base Star Female Hybrid. Both have been with us since the very beginning (even though Zak well…not really “been with us” on screen, so it’s a bit iffy there). Cause well, we had Base Stars since the very first scene in the Miniseries, and on board any Base Star is a hybrid. Both were not on the human Fleet during Revelations. The hybrid is aboard the base star and Zak…well he’s dead. And both are not in the Last Supper picture.
The only other person that COULD be the FC is Admiral Cain. Thing is I dont really know what RDM means by “has been with us since the beginning”. If he means has been in the story, whether on screen or off screen, then Zak and Cain qualify somewhat, though Cain is really stretching it. Yes, she was there on the Pegasus during the attack on the colonies in the miniseries, but she was not on screen. And Zak was only on screen in photographs and accounts from Will and Lee Adama.
So Zak and Cain could POSSIBLY be the FC, but they are weak candidates due to the fact that they have not been with us from the start on screen.
While the best candidate for Finaly Cylon that fits all of the clues we have been given so far is the Base Star female Hybrid.
The only thing is, remember the First Hybrid prophecy. After all everything it said came true, said this about the FC “still in the shadow, clawing towards the light, seeking redemption which will arrive in the howls of terrible suffering” or something like that. This part nags at me. Because the people who best fit this “redemption” and “sin” and “suffering” thing are Baltar, Kendra Shaw and possibly Admiral Cain. But as I said they are exluded by the other clues we are given. The Hybrid, we dont know if it’s seeking redemption…
But there you have it. Exlusion by what we are told so far
The Female Hybrid is most likely our best candidate for Final Cylon folks…
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:29 pm
oh and I forgot…Aaron Douglas said the theories and guesses on the internet dont even come close to who the FC is…that supports the Female Hybrid being FC even more
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
That was awesome, guys!
Like a few of you, I don’t think I could add more to what has already been said in terms of theories.
I’m one of those who believe that this IS indeed Earth, and not an alternate reality or another similar planet.
The mention of the new series, Caprica, also sprung some ideas for me when it comes to the final cylon. As we already know, it seems the Adams (Adamas) lose one of their children (and the wife of the family I believe) and Joseph attempts to reconstruct her with the help of the Graystones. But what if something came to happen to his son, William as well? What if… in some cruel twist of fate, Joe would get desperate enough that he’d attempt to recreate his son as well? Would that make Bill Adama the last cylon?
Not to mention, I also like to think one of the seven models (Six, or Three most likely) was based off Bill’s dead sister or even mother. You’d think Bill would recognize her, but what if he was programmed so he would not? It would be just like when Boomer was implanted with the fake memories of her past and childhood. And since there are different types of cylon models (as Tigh explained), perhaps the model based off his sister found a way to grow up? Unlikely, probably, but still, it’s an interesting base for a theory. (Okay… so maybe I did have a bit of a theory, though farfetched lol).
Also, I feel panic will become imminent in the fleet. They were already hanging by a strand, their only hopes and fate residing with the fact that they could find Earth and settle there for a new life… And what they come to find is a desolate wasteland? I can already hear minds breaking like wooden twigs. –SNAP!–
Again, Nat and Matt, great cast, as always!
P.S. If I may add a shameless plug here (I hope it’s alright), I had some fun today working on a BSG illustration; A little parody of GTA and BSG. My apologies if this isn’t the right place, but I thought I’d share with fellow BSG fans
Note that I’m no GTA fan, but it gave me a reason to draw Caprica Six 
lol
http://mariasunderland.deviantart.com/art/Grand-Theft-Galactica-89538449
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Adalla,
I really love reading your comments. I do hope you won’t take any of what I say as offense or anything. I really like how you like to narrow things down. I have two videos on YouTube about Final Cylon speculation. I love this topic.
But I have to say: I think many of us are jumping to conclusions about D’Anna’s comment. I wrote about this on the Revelations page. Adalla, your comment is great. But it assumes that she meant that the Fifth is not in the Fleet. She actually said, “Four. Four are in the Fleet.”
She didn’t say “the Fifth is somewhere else.” Really, I was just a bit put out at all that. I refuse to believe the Colonials are care little to know who the last one is. Why didn’t someone say “And where’s the last one?” Now, I’m not going to raise a huge stink over it. It just ruffled me just a bit.
But Adalla, would you be willing to concede that perhaps D’Anna’s comment could be interpreted a few other ways. I proposed these on the other page:
1. The Final Cylon is not in the Fleet. (We’ve already mentioned it.)
2. The Final Cylon is on the Basestar. (Also already mentioned.)
3. The Final Cylon is someone D’Anna had never seen before; therefore, she doesn’t know it. She can’t give a name to anyone, because she doesn’t know that person and would only recognize that person upon seeing. (Farfetched perhaps, but it’s speculation nonetheless.)
4. The Final Cylon is someone who was killed by the Cylons. (A good one, but yet again another assumption. It assumes this was the Cylon D’Anna apologized to. We simply don’t know who that one was.)
5. The Final Cylon has not been activated yet.
The last is very important, because D’Anna mentions she is in contact with the Four, but not the Last. It’s possible that she can’t give up the Fifth because that person doesn’t know it’s a Cylon.
All I’m saying is there are ways that the Fifth can indeed be in the Fleet and still render D’Anna’s statement correct. So let’s do be careful with the assumptions.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:01 pm
That BSGCast was great and hilarious! The walking part had me laughing so hard that I had to watch the thing a few times just to listen to what was being said. I would recommend utilizing ADR so you can walk no a treadmill in the future.
I know, ADR is no fun, but fake walking is goofy… well, at least it was funny.
Anyway, here is my little theory about the whole thing (and I am sure it fits with what a lot of people are saying):
If that is Earth, then there are a couple of reasonable scenarios at play.
1) This is Earth thousands of years in the future. There was some kind of war that left the planet so full of man-made radiation that it was uninhabitable. Perhaps a nuclear war or another technology that causes extreme radiation. Whatever it was, the survivors felt they had to leave and find a new home.
2) It is Earth in our past. I doubt this very much so I am not going to get much into any of those possibilities.
3) It is near-future Earth… maybe a hundred years from now. Nuclear war destroyed most of humanity and that was followed by an ice age.
4) No nuclear war occurred at all. The planet fell into a deep ice age that was expected to last thousands of years and the humans realized they had to leave. The fleet landed near NYC, which has a nuclear reactor nearby. Eventually, the reactor hull was breached and some radiation seeped out into the soil.
Now, whatever happened on Earth, humans had to survive and move on to a new home. How would this work? Well:
1) Those who could leave did so via some kind of galactic transport that either settled on different planets over time, until landing on Kobol, or simply found Kobol and settled there first. This may have been a large force of humans, or a small crew.
2) Since we have no idea what kind of propulsion these humans would have utilized, it is difficult to say how long the travel took. However, it might be safe to say that it took a long time to go from Earth to Kobol. Perhaps it took a thousand years. Over that time, even if there were thousands of humans in the fleet, the notion of Earth would have become distorted and lost over time. So, some wrote the history of Earth so people would remember it. Eventually Kobol was settled upon and the story goes from there.
3) Some humans realized that humanity was coming to an end. There was no way to transport all humans off the planet, or even thousands. What was needed was a handful of travelers who could find a new home for humanity and then reproduce it over time. So, five humanoids were designed to survive for thousands of years, and even if they died, they could continue on through some form of regeneration/rebirth that was unnatural. These five are of course the Final Five, or the protectors of humanity.
So let me pretend that points 4 and 3 of each part are accurate. Humanity was dying off, the planet as well, and those in power knew there was no survivable solution for man, so they designed five beings to transport human genetics from Earth to another home, with the idea that they would return to Earth some day to repopulate it, since it was the true home of humanity. These five traveled across the universe, stopping off at points to either try and restart humanity, but each time running into a new problem that forced them to move on and try again. Kobol was a near success but humanity turned against the five and left them.
So, the five needed to return humanity toward its intended course. When the five saw their opportunity, they created the seven cylons to act as the impetus toward returning humanity back to Earth. Though, there is a problem with this theory… I have no really good reason for the humans to return to Earth, or why the five would want them to… so, if this is remotely accurate, there is an unknown variable that would motivate the five to assist the cylons in nearly wiping out humanity. Earth must be important in some way. Perhaps it is a portal to “heaven” and those who die cannot travel to the other side without Gods amplifier (Earth) being populated.
Shrug… it is all theories anyway.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Roslin is the Fifth. D’Anna’s laughter was a fake-out. Why do you think she keeps her close? Roslin is the only one who even asked about the Fifth. RDM is hiding her in plain sight.
Glad to see Matt and Nat weren’t so knocked out by The Hub and Revelations. I thought both were fairly weak episodes. Revelations especially was a let-down.
Kara cannot be the Fifth because she’s been scanned countless times by Cylon Raiders and they’ve never recognized her. She is a clone. But who made the clone and why? Leoben has motive and means but how did Kara find Earth?
My highly critical review of Revelations and some insights into the Season 4, Part II trailer can be found at
http://www.galacticavariants.blogspot.com
Also, they plan to make literal Six as an angel … for that see http://www.bsglastsupper.blogspot.com
June 23rd, 2008 at 6:52 pm
My theory (again) – Please read it and tell me what you think!!:
Living on Kobol with the humans were 12 very powerful beings or “gods”. These gods were the Lords of Kobol. They may have been created by the humans or may not have. When the humans went to Capirca/Earth, the gods went into hiding somewhere. Thousands of years later, humans on Caprica created Cylons that were purely mechanical, not biological yet. Atleast several of the gods came to Caprica and placed themselves into the human population, forgetting their true nature (Col. Tie and maybe others). The first Cylon war occurred and the Cylons left. Near the end of the ware, they began experimenting with the biological, but it never went anywhere, before the old male hybrid from Razor could create more biological Cylons, 7 of the gods found the Cylon fleet and helped them advance their technology to the biological, creating the new raiders, centurions, and the resurrection ships where the gods taut the Cylons to create many copies of the 7 gods. Those 7 gods are “the original programmers”. They programed fail-safes into the raiders so they cannot harm gods and programed the copies of themselves to not think about them or the remaining 5 gods. Something went wrong and the Cylons decided to destroy all the humans, which was not the original intention of the gods. After Caprica was attacked, some of the gods decided to subtlety intervene to lead the remaining humans to Earth. Head 6, Head Baltar, and Head Leoben are all the personalities of the original gods. (Yes, that means Baltar is the final Cylon even though it doesn’t seem likely) It was the gods who saved Cara and are the cause behind everyone’s visions. As for earth, it could be anything. Personally I would it if it was in the distance past and some time before the show ends, they explain how all of the big building remains disappear.
That’s my theory, I don’t think there are any holes in it that can’t be slightly changed but have it still hold. Let me know what you think!
I made the theory pretty early on in the season, but not much has really changed. Some of the stuff that the hybrid said works well with it though.
can someone please tell me what you think of it?
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
FRAKKING awesome!!!!!!
Bravo to the entire crew that put this cast together. My hats are off to you folks. The best BSGCast I’ve seen to date. Heh, I go away to get my BSG exuberence out somewhere else and you guys do something this fantastic.
My fav. line “What a neck stabber.” The way Mat punches that line is hilarious.
Matt for the record I’ve been with you with on Hera as the FC for sometime. Nice thought about Billy being Nikki. Just read my past comments
Kudos to anyone that read my massive Being of Light post last week. There is more visual evidence on the way.
My current theory is that the HeadPeople/Beings of Light are the dead spirits of the 13th tribe from Earth. Think about this, at least in two cases, the head people have guided or given advice. Head Leoben lead Kara to Earth and Head Elosha helped Laura gain her humanity back. In Laura’s case she didn’t learn Elosha’s full lesson. notice how Laura’s regained humanity only extended to Baltar, yet when it came to the cylons Larura went back to being Darth Roslin. Now why would head Leoben lead the fleet to a dead planet? I think the lesson to be learned on Earth is that if the humans and Cylons continue on the same path they will destroy each othe like his people did. The humans and cylons destroyed each other on Earth. This may have happened in the previous cycle. What Elosha was trying to show Larura is that humans and cylons need let go of hate. Again Laura missed the entire lesson. Elosha was trying to give Laura the tools everyone needs to avoid the same fate.
Where do the final five fit in? I believe the FF are the cylons from the conflict on Earth. They are the five priests who worshiped the one god that we see in the Opera House vision and left the Temple of the Five on the algae planet. Like the modern hybrids they a foot in both the space between life and death and the real world. I think they serve the same purpose as guides that the head people did. The Four did help lead to Earth in combination with Head Leoben. So somehow they have role to play in preventing or maybe even causing the conflict with humans and cylons. One idea I have is that the FF’s belief in the one god may have something to do with making the next cycle happen. Bringing humanity to an end. I mean with Hera, Nikki, and Caprica’s baby they defiantly have the seeds for the next cycle. This would have something to do with my belief that head six is the re imagined Count Iblis. Six getting Baltar to spread the message of the one god could be her attempt to make the cylon human conflict happen. The FF could have the same aim in direct conflict with the head people.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:40 pm
The Head Six, Head Baltar, Head Leoben, Head Elosha Theory
I’m not sure if this has been brought up before, but I just wanted to throw this out there. What if these beings aren’t messengers from GOD, but something else. Like a group of higher beings who have had an interest humanity, who have been known to frak and frak with humans. Who love to watch the lowly mortals scurry about trying to survive. Who take immense enjoyment from being worshipped and prayed to. I think that’s happened has be orchestrated by the Gods(Hera, Zeus, Apollo, etc.) for their entertainment. And any time they wanted to nudge humanity towards wasteland Earth, one of the Head people would pop in and push, just a little bit. Their reason for doing this is actually simple, they wanted a good laugh at humanity.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Wow, Maria Sunderland! That Grand Theft Galactica image was pretty impressive… I love that it captures both themes at once. And the Arrow of Apollo was brilliant
Heh heh… Neck Stabber… I thought you’d like that one, TighFighter! I agree that the final 5 are Cylons from Earth’s version of the cycle. Cylons that were perhaps a rebel force that joined the humans, creating an original Cylon Civil war. It explains how the genes for Tigh, Tyrol, Tori and Anders got into the breeding pool so long ago that they pre-date the skinjobs and the war 40 years ago.
~Matt
June 24th, 2008 at 6:34 am
I’m just responding to the theory that the final cylon is the female hybrid. I don’t find this theory satisfactory. The other 11 humanoid models have been thought to be human, the same must hold true for the last, for me. The other 11 were designed, or at least managed, to infiltrate human society and pass as human until their programming kicked in or they were recognized in some other way. How anti-climactic if the final were not also someone thought to be human. “So who is the final cylon?” “Acually, it’s the basestar hybrid.” “Oh, well, that was weird. I already knew she was kind of a cylon. WTF?” No offence, but I’m only looking at this from a story-telling point of view. I’ll be very disappointed with the writing if this is the case.
I chose long ago not to rule out anyone in the last supper picture. There was a long, long wait between season 3 and 4, and there is going to be a long wait until the second part of season 4. I’m sure RDM and co want to keep the speculation going, and they wouldn’t want us to feel too confident with it being a major character like Baltar, Kara or Adama too soon, lest we lose interest. I’m still open to the final being anyone at all.
I agree with earlier comments made about Three’s comment. She likely knows somehow that the fifth hasn’t been activated. Therefore, she couldn’t call him/her the way she did the four, who knew who they were. Also, in the previous episode, she told Roslin she wanted to play her cards close to her chest for the sake of her own survival. Why would she have called the five if the five weren’t ready? Why would she reveal the identity of the fifth if she didn’t have to and she could still keep an ace up her sleeve? She could be lying, or speaking in half truths. I don’t think she’d just throw her decision to keep something to herself away in one episode. I don’t think we can literally believe that the fifth is not in the fleet. She evaded Roslin’s question, “Where is the fifth?”
June 24th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Somebody else may have already talked about this on here, and if so I apologize, but check out this vid. It would make sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrYYNfS3tEQ
June 24th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Adalla,
Well done – good noggin on your neck.
However, I agree with Kaybrid about the hybrid sucking as final cylon from a dramatic point of view. I don’t think D’Anna knows who it is.
Having Zak or someone like Socrata with no real character development established wouldn’t make sense either. It has to be someone we know….I think.
I am discounting Kendra-Hera because Hera’s already half cylon – how can she be the final cylon?
I have to say that with this twist of already finding ‘Earth,’ what does it matter who the final cylon is so much? I am at a loss as to what role this character will play. Saving humanity somehow? Taking them to a new home, new ‘Earth?’ If we could get the plot down pat a bit, who it is would be easier to sort out…I think.
If Aaron Douglas says it’s not someone who’s been discussed on the boards, and is someone very unexpected, and someone who has been with us since the beginning, and not in the photo, maybe it’ll be….BOXEY!
Tootie
June 24th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
To respond to the responses about the female hybrid being the Final Cylon:
I dont get why people say that in order to be a Final Cylon they cant be…a cylon. They have to be human? Well if they are a Cylon they are not human
. In fact, it is my belief that the Final Five are evolved hybrids like Hera. They are the “next generation” that Head Six keeps talking about. The “next generation of God’s children” is the union of the Cylon race with the Human race, i.e fully biological Hybrids like Hera. I believe that the FInal Five are well…the same race as Hera from the previous cycle. So in essence, I believe they are half cylon and half human.
That’s why I think it’s very possible for someone like Hera or the base star Hybrids to be one of the Final Five. Dont look at the way the female Hybrids are right now, half human half machine. Remember, the Final Five are much more than they appear, as evident from the visions of the Opera House. What form the Final Five take in the physical universe is not of importance. They can take a human form or half human half machine like a hybrid. So I think it is possible a base star Hybrid would be the Final Cylon. Imagine her just detaching herself from the base star, and getting up on her feet out of that goo bath, wouldnt THAT be an impressive reveal of the FC? (btw I copyright this scene! as Adalla’s Hybrid Final Cylon Reveal Scene TM
).
Why woudl the Hybrid make a great Final Cylon? Well, I’d have to go into the Caprica Series spoilers…even though they are pretty widely known by now. Lets just say it would tie in very well with the Caprica TV series.
Of course, personally I still maintain that Gaius Baltar would make the best Final Cylon both plotwise, character development wise, storyline wise, in every possible sense. He is STILL the best character to fit the male Hybrid prophecy from Razor, there is still nobody that even comes close to fitting that prophecy better than Baltar. No one who has suffered more than him, no one who has sinned more than him, and no one who has been seeking redemption more than him. He has been with us from the very first few scenes of Battlestar Galactica, and as I have always believed, Gaius Baltar will be at the center of any major revelation in the BSG story.
I think Ron D Moore and Aaron Douglas are just doing their jobs and messing with us to keep us guessing, and keeping their Final Cylon reveal secret. And I dont blame them.
I mean THINK about it, this is Ron Moore we are talking about, he has been working on BSG for like 5 years now, and the Final Cylon reveal is his biggest ace in his sleeve…you think he’s going to simply say “you pulled that right out of me nicely” or whatever he had said to the interviewer about the Last Supper pic? lol NO! He’s a sneaky lyar who is doing an excellent job at keeping us guessing. And he probably told the rest of the Cast and Crew to do the same.
Guys, just admit it. There is absolutely no better candidate for the Final Cylon than Dr. Gaius Baltar. Remember, Ron D Moore said the most important thing in Razor, pretty much the whole reason for doing it, was the male Hybrid Prophecy, and everything has come to happen as he prophecized. And as I said, nobody even comes close to Baltar as far as perfectly fitting that prophecy.
Many of you have been asking who cares about the Final Cylon, and what’s the importance of the Final Cylon to the storyline anyways right?
Well I do not think RDM is keeping the FC secret just for dramatic effect and to keeping ratings and interest up. We know the Final Five are the key to the entire storyline. They are revered by the Cylon, and the humans built a magnificient Temple for them, so we can safely assume they are worshipped by humans too.
Furthermore, there are FIVE final cylons, an odd number, not even. That makes it so that one of these Final Five can stand out from the rest, and be their leader.
My theory regarding the Final Five, as I said, is that they are evolved human-cylon hybrids like Hera, from the last cycle. They are the last step in both human and cylon evolution.
So why is the Final Cylon so important? Well the Final Cylon is the most evolved, most spiritually advanced and wise being in the BSG universe. The purpose of the Final Cylon is to bring peace and wisdom and enlightment to both humans and cylon alike, to guide both of them to the next step in their evolution, to bring understanding to them. Now, that doesnt mean it’s going to be easy. There’ll probably be a ton of bloodshed and death to get to that point, but eventually I believe we’ll get there.
So in this light, the Final Cylon has to be someone who has been growing since the beginning of the show and having an immense impact on the entire story. I mean it makes no sense for a minor character who has been pushing buttons (like Gaeta or Dualla) or someone as insigfinicant as a Viper Pilot like Seelix to be the glorious being that is meant to unite human and cylona and bring peace. Doesnt make sense does it?
And yes, Adama, Roslin, Lee and all the others in power have a good chance…and they have all suffered, and learned, been tested and grown spiritually. But then again, none come close to the suffering, guilt, sin and impact that Gaius Baltar has had on the entire storyline. Baltar was the cause of the nuclear holocaust of the human race, he then was the cause of the loss of thousands on New Caprica, he never took sides, was always selfish, and gave both Cylon and Human critical information to advance the plot. He was there with the virus that could annihilate the entire CYlon race, keeping it secret for a while. I mean there is no one that has has more influence on the lives of the human and cylon races. Not even Roslin or Adama come close, as they have only affected the human race, not both races.
And let me point out something else. The Final Five Cylon, even though they are called that, are not really Cylons. They have no clear allegiance to the Cylon, they still feel very much human, they are still allied with the humans, and the people they care most for are human. So why even call them Cylon? That’s because the Final Five are the link between Human and Cylon races, because they are hybrids! Their purpose is to help both races evolve to the next stage of their life.
Aaron Douglas mentioned that being a Cylon is not a bad thing at all. In fact he says, we’ll find out that it’s a very cool thing. And he has teased us several times saying how do you know I’m really a Cylon?
Anyways, my point is, the Final Five are not 100% cylon or allied with the Cylons or thinking and acting like Cylons. They are very much human in fact, more human than cylon at this point except for Tori, who is embrancing her cylon nature, but the other 3 are still very much the same people.
So, this brings me to my last point. The Final Cylon is what the Final Four are, but multiplied by 10. Final Cylon is the link between Humans and Cylon, a hybrid, highly spiritually evolved and with the purpose of helping both races take the next step in their own spiritual evolution with the help of the Final Four.
And the Final Cylon didn’t just fall from the sky and say “I’m all wise and know everything, let me teach you the truth” no. The Final Cylon is like a Jesus-type figure who is just like the rest of us, and had to go through the struggles of life and learn the truth on their own, through trial and error, through suffering and through many many wrong choices and many mistakes.
THAT is why, ladies and gentlemen, Gaius Baltar fits this Final Cylon profile best. He has evolved spiritually more than any other character in the show. Next to him, the Final Four (except Tori) evolved the most. Tigh, Tyrol and Anders are not angelic-like beings, they are doing what is right, they are become wise and enlightened. He has suffered more than anyone, sinned more than anyone, and changed more than anyone from a truly selfish human being to a selfless enlightened wise leader.
Although I say the female Hybrid is the most likely to be the Final Cylon, that is simply from all the statements from the cast and crew, as well as what we have been revealed from the show. And that is assuming the statements are not lies, which in this post I realized, they very likely are just that.
So ladies and gents, having concluded that Aaron Douglas and Ron D Moore are master lyers, I officially am back to my very first guess for Final Cylon.
Ever since that BSGcast where Matt and Nat looked at the Hybrid Prophecy from Razor, I felt we had been spoiled, because there was absolutely no way that Baltar would NOT be the final cylon. Since then RDM and the Cast and Crew have tried to confuse us, but I say this: Lets stop listening to what the cast and crew are saying, we cant trust it, they are trying to confuse us, I say lets forget them and just look at the facts, at the BSG story so far, and make our guesses based on the show.
Thus, lets face it folks, our beloved Gaius Baltar is the Final Cylon. And admit it…he’d make the very best Final Cylon out of all BSG characters.
It simply makes too much sense and there is too much to support Batlar being the Final Cylon.
~Adalla
June 24th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
The above post made me write a “Why I think Gaius Baltar is the Final Cylon” post.
You can read it here
June 24th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Adalla:
I agree completely that Baltar could be the final cylon, but the femail hybrid, no. I agree with what you said about the final five believing themselves to be and feeling so human, so where would the hybrid fit into that? Hey, maybe it’s Scar!
June 24th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Check it out Mat, we have Adalla reading from our theory playbook now. :p high five.
June 24th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
‘mI sorry, like they didn’t know that the amount of radioactivity on the planet, that there was no one alive, that all cities were destroyed? What? The fleet suddenly lost all power to every sensor they had. Everyone was so happy that they forgot to look!
Silly. But the ending scene was pretty cool, looked great. Nice arty feel.
June 24th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
OK,,, I have been watching BSGCast for some time, have had my laughs at the humor,
But really? This is not Earth,,, look at the fallen in dome of the opera house before the pan up to the bridge….its not sydney ,,and yes that is a stage they are wondering around on . I dont think anyone wants to venture into Galitica 1980,,,but the first hybid came from a renagade -being of light,,,,so, where is Dirk Benadict,(real starbuck) and better yet where is The ships of light and count Ibly or how ever You spell it?
You need a real “Dark Prince” somewhere around,,,,,,,,,here
Not Earth,,,,its old “New Kobol”
jason
June 25th, 2008 at 12:07 am
PS
Starbucks ship is a Giegercounter,,,thats why it doesnt show up on normal colonial channels, what kind of radiation effects silicon relays,,,,,,,,,,,, as spoken by Leoben so long ago/the first few episodes //arming up warheads? I miss oldschool (vocoder) cylons, the kind that would discuses how they would kill You!!!!! or not. Razor was worth the pain to see some old school Cylons.
Run away from New Kobol,,,,,come join us on Earth
Jason
June 25th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Jason1 – “But really? This is not Earth,,, look at the fallen in dome of the opera house before the pan up to the bridge….its not sydney?”
When I first saw that episdoe I thought it was Mars before some kind of planetary anihalaiton that left it as the red planet we know today. But then I remembered one little detail. We can actually see the North american continent. I could see Florida when they jumped into orbit. It pretty much has to be earth, unless it’s some other planet with identicle land massess but I doubt it. This has to be earth. I think the question is When?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:36 am
More ps,,,
remember Galactica (old school) helped save a pre/post nuke reddy planet.,,, we need some andriods here( not cylons)
June 25th, 2008 at 1:54 am
To Kirsty or kisrtycol,
I didnt see them jump in,but yes, I saw the “true earth shot” in the jimi hendrix season ending.”
“”"When I first saw that episdoe I thought it was Mars before some kind of planetary anihalaiton that left it as the red planet we know today.””
Well have you seen the original program,,,and did you think the pilots were egyptians?
June 25th, 2008 at 4:30 am
hey guys,
just finished watching ur special bsgcast and something just poped into mind. This new idea involves the concept of “this has all happened before and will happen again”, it came to mind with the possible description Matt had on explaining earth as the toxic wasteland. I do still believe the idea of earth creating there own version of cylons, but for this scenario it dosnt have to be cylons as stated by Caprica/ Head Six alot that human are violent creatures so maybe we turned on each other to destroy our homeworld. Now using what we know of the journey to earth we can look for similarites that the 13th tribe might of faced. Algae Planet could have been used as new caprica was however it is stated by roslin that the 13th tribe only had a rest here so it is more likely that Earth’s version of New Caprica is Kobol, this giving them a break, time to reproduce etc (the time of peace). However evidenced by Head Six and Guias there was murder and perhaps human sacrifice on Kobol so clearly the human on human was that presumably destroyed Earth began again. So the Humans left Kobol (there home (the creation of the other 12 colonies)) and eventually came across the 12 worlds the later enhabited.
Now going back through this, this covers alot and still sticking to some of what the colonials know.
1. The 12 colonies came from Kobal
2. That there is always bloodshed on Kobal
3. That the 13th tribe rested on the Algae Planet
4. How the prophets knew of earth
5. How pythia could show the way back (this could only be possible if the passage was intended for a time when the Earth has recooperated)
6. Using Human nature it can be explained how ‘this has all happened before and will happen again” has occurred
7. Cylons are only a physical extention to humanity’s violent nature as Head Six said “We [Cylons] are your children, you taught us well”
Anyways here are just my thoughts bout it.
Hope the new eps come soon.
Cya l8r
Jyadaha
June 25th, 2008 at 8:10 am
I agree with allot of what Adalla says in terms of what the role of the final cylon is. It is a being that has had both a major impact on both humans and cylons and is working in the background to achieve destiny- humans and cylons living together in peace. The final cycle of ‘this has all happened ….yada yada”. I think this is the reason why we have found earth in a previous cycle state and the new human/cyclon faction will rebuild and live in peace. The hole events of the series have been guided by the final cyclon who “hungers for redemption” from past cycles and will reveal itself “howls of terrible suffering”. I think this in in refernce to this cycle not a particular characters role, where the howls of suffering represent past cycles of war and death on both cylon and human fronts. We have seen the final cylon many of time – my belief is the final cylon is the various head characters – six, baltar, leoben, opera house visions who lead major characters to fulfill thier respective destinys in the final cycle towards peace. The final has the ability to project itself into the mind of whomever as a regular character to guide the peroson along their chosen path. I also believe that Ron will identify the final cylon to have a human version we have seen thoughtout the series although I believe the impact as to who it is is less significant as the human copy to it being the head characters – remember leoben agreed he was not “Leoben” in Starbucks vision before her death/journey to earth. The final , in order to remain “hidden” and be able to guide destiny must not be a major character as the significace of the character is more of it guiding the “major characters” or pawns. This is why we want to assume Baltar, Starbuck or Roslin is the final because of their action during the show – which are as a result of the final cylons influence on them. My pick for the final cylon in human form is Doc Cottle – one who in human form can protect the lives of both human and cylon as he sees fit , recall his refusla to have anything to do with the abortion of Hera as wanted by Roslin. I think anyone can go back to any head character or dream a character has has and think about it being the final cyclon sending a message of some sort and it will fit in most situations – recall Tyrol dream of being a cylon and his “just knowing” the temple was there – messages from the final….
June 25th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Adalla: You’ve made some good points about Baltar being the final Cylon, but I remain unconvinced. Granted, I could be wrong easily – Baltar would serve as well (or better) as a cylon than many, but the sheer amount of explaining they would need to do to make understandable the numerous ways in which they have toyed with us about Baltar being a cylon as well as how they ultimately shut his candidacy down seems as excessive as the length of this sentence. Going in another direction, the depth to which you analyzed what theFF and the 5th Cylon in particular is about seems to me to be something that is best dismissed out of hand because – let’s face it – we are all throwing darts blindfolded here. We don’t know where or how far it is to the dart board. Personally, I’ll be content hitting anywhere on the dartboard with metaphysically minimalistic theories. Your theory seems to be so detailed that it either misses altogether or is a direct bullseye hit – you can’t help but be wrong (unless you’re very very lucky) if you sign your name to that much detail. The Hybrid’s prophecy makes Baltar a better candidate than most, to be sure. RDM is certainly not above lying to us to get us speculating. You’ve got an interesting metaphysic on the 5th Cylon that could have elements that are right. However, I’m hedging my bets and arguing conservatively, especially with the previously discussed possibility that the 12 models mimic the Greek Pantheon, making the final Cylon female, something Baltar is most definately not. However, I could be wrong too.
Regarding Hybrids as a final cylon as discussed generally, it is confusing to me why this is considered a possibility when Athena made it clear in Razor that Hybrids were an evolutionary dead end. Cylons had built them, cylons had developed them into the best thing they could be, cylons had discontinued the project. How then could cylons have gotten to the point of adding them to the list of cylon models?
Regarding Hera as a candidate for being the final cylon, Cavil is clear during the episode where the Cylon civil war begins that cylons had makers and programers. It seems singularly unclear to me how any of the 12 models could have origins other than in the design room and factory if they were all designed. Furthermore, we have multiple members of ‘God’s new generation of God’s children’ now – Hera, Niki, and Caprica’s baby. These are distinguished from Cylons and humans as God’s new generation, so I have issues with one of the last generation (Cylons) actually being a part of the new one. It seems to mix things up excessively. If cylons are designed and made (and constitute a previous generation of God’s children), then anyone who was born seems to be ruled out as a candidate to being a cylon (and is thus part of the Humans or of the new generation of God’s children) – and incidentally, this is why I rule out Zach, Lee, and Admiral Adama as final cylon – someone was born with each identity and grew to maturity; replacing them couldn’t likely have been done in a timely fashion for any.
# Kirsty Says: June 25th, 2008 at 12:43 am “But then I remembered one little detail. We can actually see the North american continent. I could see Florida when they jumped into orbit. It pretty much has to be earth, unless it’s some other planet with identicle land massess but I doubt it.”
I just did a review of the videos of the planet, and they clearly obscured the land with enough clouds to leave us hanging. Assuming it is earth, they don’t want our knowledge of our own planet to settle the issue for us. They are insisting on revealing that bit of assurance to us on their terms only – and that is through their story development. NA was only visible at the end of Season 3. We’ve got nothing during this cliff hanger except what we can reason on our own.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Folks, there are only 10 episodes left. They dont have the time to move take off, move to another planet, and land again, and explain it all. They must rap this show up. Plus, the constellations match Gaeta says. And someone mentioned that those constellations could be visible from various planets and systems close buy. I am having a hard time believing that, though of course I have nothing to back it but my common sense, which is probably wrong
I’d think for all those 12 constellations to be exactly in those positions (and we are talking about a computer which calculates exact positions) it can only happen on one planet.
Anyways, the only other possibilities is that this is a “new Kobol”, and where the Cycle starts over. It is possible the way to Earth is really the way to a new Kobol, where the cycle starts over. And then there is the exodus of the 12 Tribes, and then another calamity, another “caravan in the skies” that journeys to yet another new “Earth” which in reality, is nothing but a new Kobol? Food for thought.
But honestly, as I said, they are truly running out of time, and this has got to be Earth. They need to focus on the last bits of character development and plot development, and there is not time to go find another planet, and re-do the “we found Earth we are alla big happy family now” scene. It’d be a waste of precious screentime, which they dont have much of anymore.
So, from simply a logistics point of view, that planet must be Earth.
Well, pretty much all our theories are a “shot in the dark”. But even though my theory about Baltar and the FF might seem detailed, it’s because I use a lot of very specific references from the show to build it. Those references are very specific. If you check out that thread I linked to in the previous post, you’ll see I have 5 reasons to backup my claim of why Baltar is the Final Cylon, and some 1000 words to support it
I simply took all the things that support Baltar being the Finaly Clon from the show, and incorporated it into my theory about the Final Cylon and the Final FIve, and well it seems detailed because I use very specific references.
And the theory about the Final Five is derived from my observations of the entire show, and what I think the message is.
To me the ultimate message is that those we think are our enemies are really not our enemies. We are all life forms trying to evolve and grow and find our place in the universe, and we learn by trial and error, and we make mistakes, that’s how we learn. BSG is trying to tell us that Cylons and Humans are the same. Their origins might not be the same, but their journey is the same. A journey of growth and evolution. A great cycle of learning through experiences, both good and bad ones.
And Baltar and the Final Five are at the heart of this growth. They have grown and experienced more than most, and they have learned the most, which is why they are in the position to lead both humans and cylon trough the next step in their growth.
And my feeling is that things are going to be as bloody and sad as ever in the next 10 episodes, and lots of people will suffer and pay the ultimate price in their journey of growth, but the point is, everybody will grow, and the survivors will be so enlightened, that they’ll trigger the end of the old cycle, and the birth of the new cycle, one that starts with a heavenly bliss and an enlighted state of living.
And yes…I could be wrong. But this is my interpretation of the BSG story, and my theories reflect that. We’ll find out in time how RDM interprets the story
For now, all we can do is give our own interpretations.
~Adalla
June 25th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Matt/ Nat…great cast! Always original and thought provoking.
I really believe also that the FF are the descendants of the “Earth” we’re seeing here. Whether everyone is dead or if there was a mass exodus I truly believe the FF are genetically tapped into the 13th tribe. They somehow returned to the 12 colonies. I don’t believe it was overnight, but rather over a very long period of time…with Kobol being a pivot point in the cycle.
Let’s remember, the RTF and the Cylons are jumping around at sub light to light speeds so a 10 second jump for them would be easily a hundred years to a less technological group of people travelling “home.” Perhaps the FF were travelling home over the 4000 years since the exodus of Kobol and founding of the 13 tribes on their respective worlds.
I’m not sure I’m translating the thoughts I’m having to the written word correctly…anyone kinda get where I’m going with this? FRAK my head hurts! :p
June 25th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
ok, i think the final cylon was ON the basestar, and thats y Deanna did not want all 5, “just the four in your fleet” she allready had the 5th! That would indicate that eather Roslin or Baltar is the last cylon.
June 25th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
I don’t have much more to add than what’s already been written, so I will just say this:
Nat, you’re hot. Not only are you sexy, but you’re a geek, and that’s full of win.
That is all.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:52 am
There are only really two reasonable inferences from D’Anna’s request for the four in the fleet. The statement indicates that she specifically knows four are in the fleet either because the Fifth is on the basestar or she knows or believes the Fifth to be dead. The inference that D’Anna knows or believes the Fifth to be dead is the more reasonable of the two inferences posited above. One can easily discard the notion that the Fifth is on the basestar because D’Anna would have told that person he/she was a Cylon given her reverence of them. For example, D’Anna was worried that the Five would never forgive them for what they had done. As such it is reasonable to infer that D’Anna’s joke to Roslin about being a Cylon was just a joke because her conduct toward Tory demonstrates that she would not joke around with the fifth. As for Baltar, the same rule applies. Why would she hide the truth from him? It serves no purpose to hide the truth from the one person who would willingly accept his being a cylon, especially because D’Anna already has him aboard the basestar. The fifth could not be in the civilian fleet because D’Anna targeted the fleet with nukes and her conduct demonstrates that she would not willfully harm the Fifth. The only inference left then is that the Fifth is dead and D’Anna knows or believes that person is dead.
June 26th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
WoW Jason, VERY good points.
I didnt think of that, that she was willing to blow the civilian fleet to bits. So the FC cant be there. And if she says there are four on Galactica, then there are four right? Btw, how the heck would she know? She know everybody on the Galactica? All the Viper pilots etc?
Either way, i think it’s pretty safe to say no one on the Galactica or civilian fleet is the Fifth. As you said, the leaves the base star and dead people. Btw this also rules out Hera as the Final Cylon…cause she’s on the Galactica with Athena.
And yes, I doubt D’anna would joke around with the Final Cylon (so Roslin is not the FC for sure). The other people who are on the Base Star and possible candidates are Baltar, Helo, Seelix, Hot Dog (lol I shouldnt even be mentioning him) and that’s about it. From all my arguments, I doubt it’s Seelix or Hot Dog. So the only two choices are Helo and Baltar, and D”anna saw both of them and didnt get on her knees and start worshipping them…then again, there is nothing to say that they still arent the FC…she could be keeping it secret for his own protection, or other reasons we cannot fathom yet.
I still am not ruling out Baltar or Helo as the FC, by not being on the human fleet, and by not being dead, and by being major characters from us from the beginning, they are the top candidates for FC.
All of this proves even more that Baltar is the FC
….ok fine fine I’ll stop 
June 26th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
D’Anna said:
“I’m already in contact with them. Now that they realize there’s nothing to fear and that we only want to love and protect them, they should find a way of joining us.”
Ok:
(1) What makes her think (incorrectly, I might add [except for Tory maybe]) that they realize there’s nothing to fear?
(2) For that matter, how does she even know that the Four know they are Cylons? Upon discovering their identities in the temple, it should have seemed pretty obvious to her that Tigh, Tyrol and Anders, at least, were unaware of their nature, and she was boxed WAY before Hendrix hopped on the mike at Arecibo for a little space concert.
I am so torn on whether it really is Earth. Damn this show anyway. They so brilliantly frak with you and get you second-guessing so much that even when you get what you expect it’s a surprise. The seemingly utterly intentional lack of identifiable landmasses (and the Moon for that matter) could so easily be a double-fakeout, and so easily not. I have to admit I do really like the idea of it somehow paralleling the Terra story from TOS. It’s worth noting that the path Roslin was following (according to scripture) was supposed to lead to Earth… but they didn’t *go* Roslin’s way, they went *Starbuck’s* way.
One of my favorite things (aside from Hogan’s performance and the stark beauty of the final shot) was Tyrol’s attitude. All that smirking and smiling just made me crack up, and yet I found it terribly realistic. It just seemed so right somehow.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
why am i seeing a video of a beach at sunset?
June 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
“What a neck stabber.” Hilarious! Once again, a fantastic ‘cast and a wonderful job on the editing. Green screens must be SO much fun…You know, if you define “fun” as long, arduous work to do something that should be really easy.
I really don’t have much to add ’cause I stink at theories. The one thing I will say is that I believe this IS Earth. I also believe the dying leader prophecy has already happened. Kara “died” before they reached Earth, then lead them to it, thus fulfilling that prophecy. I also believe she fulfilled her “harbinger of death” prophecy. “Kara Thrace will lead the human race to it’s end.” The end of what? Their search for Earth. She is the harbinger of death…for the cylons. They now have NO ability to ressurrect and will all eventually die. All of that began when Kara agreed to an alliance with the rebels.
What happens next? Frak if I know. I’m still pulling for Zarek as the final cylon, but really, RDM could tell me Earth was the final cylon and I’d think it was cool…As long as it’s NOT Baltar. If Baltar IS the final cylon, it will ruin his entire arc and make me question the writers’ sanity. So no Baltar=5th and final cylon and we’re good.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Good deductions, Jason! I’m going to have to combine agreeing with you with agreeing with Adalla. Definitely not in the civilian fleet or on Galactica, and most likely not on the basestar. There’s no reason D’Anna wouldn’t have told someone in her presence that they are Cylons.
Helo being a Cylon would just piss me off, so I’m going with dead or Baltar… dead leaving me with Kendra Shaw/Hera as the front runner. And Billy/Nikki as wishful thinking.
~Matt
June 26th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
What if the cycle is nothing more than religious crap?
Though there truly seems to be godly powers at work around the event of BSG, what if the religion of the 12 colonies is no more than a badly written history? Similar events could have happenned during the course of a few centuries, giving those who kept the records a weird impression of recurence, encouraging people to believe this “cycle thingy” (same goes for the first hybrid). But that might be as far as it goes.
Earth being a radioactive wasteland might have made it impossible for the cycle to repeat itself.
And as for the final cylon theory… my guess would be a well known important character.
Otherwise, what would be the point? Honestly, it would kill the story if it was just some obscur dead character with no decent manifestation throughout the series. The 4 known of the final five were all important characters, each with a specific position in the fleet that could influence events (Tori was close to Roslin, Saul to Adama, Anders to Starbuck, and Tyrol … well he was for a long while the most important mechanic on the ship.). Why would the final one be anything less?
Baltar would rock as a final cylon (is he not becoming the main prophet of the cylon god?). It would boost his already enlarged ego too much though.
Hera would be silly… come on… what kind decent “revelation” dialogue can you have with a kid.
Kendra Shaw… though interesting… not important enough.
My best guest would be either a physical manifestation of head six/head baltar (or the cylon God), or someone with motives that are thouroughly opposed to the one of head six/head baltar/cylon god.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
There’s one point that comes to mind for me.
Has anyone else seen the 20 seconds teaser for the next half of the season? About 10 seconds into the teaser, you hear someone say “You’re the fifth”. Obviously this is referring to the fifth cylon…
If the fifth was ‘dead’ (and I mean dead-dead-finished-over-nevercomingbackdead), then this wouldn’t make much sense, now would it? (Although Ron knows how to frak with us after all! lol)
I think that opens up to more ideas. I cannot believe the last to be in the fleet or on Galactica either. Perhaps it USED to be there though. It got killed, and was resurrected, but not the same way the more common models do (or used to).
All the Resurrection Ships obviously only hold the common 7 models, otherwise they would know what the Final Five looked like from the start. Wouldn’t make much sense. What if, instead of resurrecting in the Resurrection Ships… they instead resurrected on Earth when killed? The Final Five obviously hold great power because the other 7 models either fear them or revere them. So why wouldn’t they hold the ability to resurrect on Earth?
I’d be more willing to believe that the fifth is waiting on Earth, and that it’ll be a familiar figure (because I think we can all agree it would really suck otherwise
I don’t think they have time to introduce a stranger ).
What this comes down to is that the fifth would be someone who died during the last seasons… That scratches a lot of names, but still leaves an interesting list to play with.
However, it seems the voice in the teaser was tempered with… so it’s impossible to tell who is saying “You’re the fifth”. Although it still somewhat sounds like a woman’s voice… I wonder, could Roslin be the one saying this?
June 26th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
While humans keep their sanity by balancing love with hate, joy with sadness, altruism with selfishness, peace with war, etc., the Cylons cannot. I remember in “Downloaded” that the human model Cylons lived a peaceful, worry free existence on Caprica, exactly the kind of existence that would send anyone straight to nuthouse. Cylons need Humans as a source of conflict, as a mean of balancing their state of blissfulness. So if Humans from Earth created the Cylons in the first place, and these Cylons rebelled and forced a group of Humans into exile (bound for Kobol), it wouldn’t be surprising that their blissful life on Earth turned sour after a while. So they followed them to Kobol and said: “Look guy, we’re really sorry about the mess we made back on Earth, but we can’t live without you. Would you please take us back? Pretty please! After a few millennia, the same shit went down on Kobol, and so on. If I’m correct, the person who created the Cylons on Earth in the first place has to be the fifth and final Cylon. He or she would be, in essence, the creator, or creators, since he or she would have had to resurrect many times over the course of human history. That is, until he or she created the latest version of the Cylon race in the twelve colonies. But, hold on a minute, there has to be five creators, one who fully knows who and what he or she really is, and four others who don’t have a clue ‘till the moment they get switched on. That would explain why the significant seven are forbidden to think about them, it would explain why the significant seven model numbers don’t go from six to twelve, and it would also explain why there are only seven significant models. Maybe at some point there were eight significant models, nine prior to that, and so on. They say that the final five have been to Earth, or that may have some knowledge of it. When they left Earth, they were all “final Cylons”, and their numbers shrunk as time went by so that we are now left with 5 final Cylons. Frak! I feel a headache coming on. I’m starting to think that RDM has us running a wild goose chase just to frak with our minds, and that the final reveal will be so simplistic our jaws will drop down to the floor in unison! Oh just frak me!!!!
June 26th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Hey, Matt & Nat!
I know you’ve heard all of the accolades already, but please allow me to chime in with my own, “GREAT JOB!” Very creative. And I really admire the fact that you both put so much hard work into what you do. I’m sure editing ANYTHING can be a tasking process, so my hats off to ya! You both may have had a hard time not bustin’ a gut during those “walking” scenes.
I really liked how you captured the “gritty greyness” of that scene. Nicely done, you two! Bravo.
And Matt, yes, yes, yes….Adalla and Jason had some good insights about the FC. Baltar would indeed be the most logical candidate as was previously mentioned, but maaaan. That would simply SUCK. I mean, it would make total sense, but it would still SUCK. Let’s just hope RDM doesn’t disappoint us when this whole thing finally wraps.
I was reminded by one of the comments above that RDM stated that the FC has “been with us since the beginning”? Hmph.
Welp, there goes our Kendra Shaw theory. Bummer.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Once again,,,
even though I was a skeptic of the new bsg show,,,with a female Starbuck,,,,,,,I have to reiterate the fact that the new BSG has followed course…followed the old Bsg line very well,,, this is not Earth!
The first series found a near Nuke/appocolyptic world and saved it,,,,it was also the first time we saw light speed travel on the old show…
Gayta said “visible” constelations match”,,,,,,,,,,not “All Constelations MATCH!!!!!”…………………….case closed,,,
PS You owe me some kind of new fangled computer, Matt ad Nat
June 27th, 2008 at 12:42 am
If Hera ends up being the reincarnation of Kendra Shaw (and the 5th and final Cylon), let me pat myself on the back because, I refer you all to my comments on BSGcast: 4.05 “The Ties that Bind”:
“I been thinking about who the final Cylon might be for a while now. Since these final five are different from the significant seven, they might not need a resurrection ship where to “resurrect”, they just may resurrect “naturally” into another body. Keeping in mind that Caprica Six feels she must protect Hera with her life, maybe Hera is the final Cylon! The question is: who died around the time when Sharon was still carrying hera? Well, I’m guessing Razor was not a total waste of our time. What about Kendra Shaw? She looks a bit Asian and a bit Caucasian (like Helo and Sharon)! What if: “And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.” is nothing more than birth (or rebirth is this case). Don’t forget, she has done some terrible things, and she might be hungering for redemption! They howl of terrible suffering, well, and don’t remember being born, but I guess I must have howled quite a lot. It’s just a theory anyway!
June 27th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Whatever else may happen, there are three certainies that must occur in the remaning episodes.
1. There will be a journey to another planet. Whether this cliffhanger planet is Earth or not, Roslin should be dead if this planet was their destination, their “promised land”.
2. At this point, the FC has no purpose except to assist finding the next planet, so that the reveal will come before the journey is complete, probably before the journey is even begun.
3. The bad cylons will catch up with the fleet, fireworks will ensue. We can’t have 10+ more episodes with no explosions or dogfights.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
It’s definitely New York they land on.
June 28th, 2008 at 1:22 am
Matt, Hera is on the fleet that D’anna was very willing to nuke to bits. And she seemed like she knew what she was talking about, or she wouldnt risk blowing the Fifth to bits if she was not sure that they were not in the human fleet. So to me, this rules Hera out. Plus, D’anna only reacted to one of the Final Five during her vision, and she said “I’m so sorry, I had no idea”. The only person out of the Five that she did not meet on the human fleet while she was a reporter is Kendra. I’d assume she’d be most shocked by Kendra, cause she doesnt know her. But her apology makes it evident she knew the person she was talking to very well, and had done somethign terrible to them. The only two people D’anna has personally done something bad to are Baltar and Bull Dog. So to me this rules out Kendra also.
Maria Sunderland,
I wouldnt rule out any dead people coming back and Tigh speaking to them. After Starbuck returned from the dead, are you really going to be surprised by ANYTHING Ron Moore throws at us? I wouldnt be surprised if the entire story was someone’s dream on our real Earth at this point… lol
June 28th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Kendra Shaw/Hera as the front runner. And Billy/Nikki as wishful thinking.- Matt
June 28th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I don’t know why that happened! Eiok!
Anyone one hear when caprica comes. And what news of the the TV movies and webisodes that are subject of so much hearsay. It’d be cool for RDM to go back and do some stuff on Anders and the Caprica resistance.
I really think the earth veiw was designed to look like a recuuring cityscape. It appears akin to many towns.
Billy/Nikki wishfull thinking. Possible yet unlikly. Shaw/Hera is chronologically neat, assuming “downloaded” takes place when it’s supposed to. But isn’t more likely to be Cally/Tigh’s and Six’s Baby. A cylon goes to a full cylon baby. But that makes Nikki a whole Cylon too!
Ah well, at least it’s not as mindistorting as lost. If it was my brain’d feeze sideways. 6 months of theorizing. Am I the only one who finds that prospect exiting.
Tell me what you think. A theory without criticism is a ship without sails.
June 28th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Okay, just doing some pondering this morning, so could someone please inform me exactly, how does Cylon reproduction work. Can they reproduce or can’t they? Baltar and Six have slept together a lot and she never got pregnant and complains about this fact in the comic battlestar galactica origins I read today. Athena and Helo have Hera, Tyrol and Cally have Nikki, Tigh and the other six have a new bun in the oven and the other two have not had relations yet being Anders and Tori. So Two of the Final five can reproduce whether they sleep with human or cylon. Can only the final five get pregnant in which case the last final cylon would be Athena. Oh wel just a theory. See ya’ll later.
June 28th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
I’m going with Jason’s deductions – they are on base and clearly articulated. The dead cylon theory makes immense sense to me. Kendra Shaw (or Kat for that matter!) as the FC would be absolutely awesome, frankly. Actually, Starbuck’s moment with Kat’s picture in the last moments of Revelations might be a hint of things to come. Prime contenders for the FC, according to my contention that they must be female, are Shaw, Ellen Tigh, and Kat presently. Not to be obsessive about the concept, but Ellen and Tigh as cylons would provide an interesting parallel to Hera and Zeus (See earlier posts for the larger thoughts here).
I previously argued against Hera or Niki being the final cylon on the basis of the distinction between generations of God’s children – human, Cylon, and hybrid. Six made such a big deal about how the hybrid children were a new creation of God, so mixing and matching wouldn’t work well in my mind – however, people seem to like the Hera is #5 theory, so I’ll let my dissent be known and wait and see how it is borne out. However, even more than that, I’m not digging the Hera as reincarnation of Kendra Shaw on the basis of timing – Hera was conceived during season 1 and about 7 months before Kendra Shaw’s death. Seeing as I’m completely unfamiliar with any understanding of reincarnation that allows for an imbuing with the essence of a person after a child’s conception, we’d need to be dealing with a completely invented understanding of reincarnation for this to be a possibility. Such a reinvention of reincarnation seems improbable frankly – reincarnation as conception after a person’s death has been intuitive to all who have considered it before.
I am consistently struck by how one highly plausible solution to the problem of the dead cylon seems to be overlooked. I consider it to be highly intuitive that the 5 would Resurrect on Earth – that is their origin, presumably where they were made, and so the Standard Seven’s resurrection ship wouldn’t be capable of resurrecting them – D’Anna wouldn’t have needed to commit suicide endlessly to see their faces if all that was needed was a little poking around the resurrection ship that was known to be off limits. I’m waiting to see who they run into on the earth itself – it could be a familiar face quite easily.
June 28th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
If Aaron Douglas is not just pulling our chains by telling us that the FC is not somebody who is being discussed on these and other boards than who is LEFT?? I mean who hasn’t been discussed? That list has to be mighty small, because it seems to me that just about every character whose name we know has been discussed at one point in time or another.
June 29th, 2008 at 12:36 am
love this website.all props go to creators of-thank you.okay,consider this,is it possible that not only are they on earth and in the future but that there is no way to directly get from where they were [at the ionian nebulla etc.,]to here without a significant amount of time passing just to cross into or from our galaxy.the show makes me ponder this because of starbuck’s disappearance for 2 months colonial/galactica time but only 6 hours according to starbucks viper electronics.hmm….
June 29th, 2008 at 6:33 am
Afterthought: One thing I would be interested in learning about is how Adalla and others make sense of the vision in the Opera House when Baltar, Hera, and Six turn around and see the five in the loft. Having Baltar in the same room as these Five doesn’t precisely rule him out on the basis of logic of course. However, it does make more explanation necessary, and perhaps uncomfortable.
As I said previously, Baltar would make as good or better a character to fill the role of the Final Cylon than most – I’m just not sold on the idea myself. Since this was another reason, I wanted to see what people did with this issue.
Enjoying the conversation….
Signa Jade
June 29th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Mr. Lovejoy:
To answer your question, I think Head Six can’t get pregnant because she is a non-corporeal being, just like you wouldn’t expect an angel to get pregnant. We’re pretty sure she’s not really a cylon, the same way head Baltar is not a Cylon or a human (unless Baltar is a cylon, head hurting now). But seriously, I think the head characters are not cylon nor human, but some other kind of entity.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Oops. Just reread your post, Mr. Lovejoy. I thought you had been asking why Head Six didn’t get pregnant with Baltar. Ok. Yes, it would seem that either: 1: a final five can impregnant a human or a significant seven, a human can impregnate a significant seven, but significant sevens can’t reproduce together, or, 2: All you need is love. Helo and Athena were in love, I assume Tyrol and Cally were in love, and Six and Tigh seem to have had some kind of love. The Sig Sevens, who were still in a pretty childish or adolescent stage of development when they were trying to figure out how their reproduction worked, may not have had an inkling what love was. But this doesn’t answer why Baltar didn’t get Caprica Six pregnant, or Three, for that matter (remember those threesomes).
In brief, I don’t think even the Cylons understand how Cylon reproduction works. They’ve been trying to figure it out.
June 29th, 2008 at 11:06 am
It could come down to “all you need is love.” After all, it seemed like an important element for the cylons when Athena was getting with Helo. Also, Caprica Six asked Tigh if he loved her… and RDM likes to lead his shows a bit with foreshadowing. However, I am not sure if Tyrol ever loved his wife.
Only 9 months until we find out…
June 29th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
DarthRazorback, I agree with you.
I believe that as long as love is involved, it will work. The Cylons were quite aware that love was what was needed on the human part to be able to procreate. That’s why Caprica Six asks Baltar if he loves her at the very beginning.
Helo needed to love Sharon/Athena to be able to procreate.
Callie loved Tyrol and were able to have Nick.
The way I see it, the love always needs to come from the human side. I like to think Tyrol loved Callie as well. He was very devastated when she died, especially the way she died. We see in the flashbacks how happy they were together at the beginning and how much of a match they were for each other. Obviously Athena loves Helo.
As for Tigh and Caprica, the way I see it, Tigh is projecting Helen onto her, thus I believe that his love for Helen is what caused the pregnancy to come forth. Tigh is obviously the most human of them, and somehow I feel that because he’s one of the Final Five, it makes his structure different and thus he manages to procreate. It could also be due to the fact that, as much as he IS a Cylon, he still sees himself as Colonel Tigh and not really one of the Cylons. And thus Caprica got pregnant. I also feel that only the Final Fives would be able to procreate with Cylons like humans do.
I’m only a little sad that it doesn’t seem to do much for Baltar. I would like to see his reaction, and even Head Six’ reaction to Caprica’s sudden pregnancy. But in the very last scene, neither even give each other a glance as though they don’t exist for each other anymore.
P.S. Thanks Matt! Glad you liked the Grand Theft Galactica piece
P.P.S. Adalla: You’re right. Ron has been able to frak with us, and I’m not worried he will make us drop our jaws even further with the upcoming episodes.
June 29th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Signa Jade (btw lovely name/alias
),
Good question lol. See in D’anna Temple of Five vision, when she grabbed the arm of who I think is the Final Cylon, when it switched from vision to real world, it was Baltar’s arm she was holding. So to me, that’s a directly link between the real and vision realms, and between Baltar and the Final Cylon.
Now I cant recall, but was Baltar ever present in a Opera House vision where they explicitly show the Final Five? To my recollection the vision he’s been in is the first one on Kobol, where him and Six saw the next generation of God’s children baby (Hera presumably). And then he appeared on the vision with Roslin, Athena, Hera and Six, but there you dont see any Final Five.
Now I know there is one other shot, where the Final Five are standing on the balcony of the opera house, and whoever is having the vision turns around and looks up to see them. Was that Baltar and Six again? I cant remember who had that vision. If it was Baltar…then yes, this goes a bit against him being the Final Cylon, but that doesnt imply he still cant be the FC. Visions dont have to be logical after all. Remember, the Final Five in the real world are detached from their “higher selves” in the vision world. Heck for the longest time they didnt know they were the Final Five, and when they discover it, they still are confused. So to me it makes sense for Baltar to see his higher self in the vision, along with the higher self of the other Final Four. I dont have too much of a problem with this, though of course, it does make you question whether he really is the Final Cylon.
But again, these are a few of the things that go against the argument that Baltar is the Final Cylon, and they are very weak arguments. In my “Why I think Baltar is the Final CYlon” 1000+ word post on BSG Pilots, I had 4 or 5 very good reasons to support him being Final Cylon, very strong arguments IMO.
But if Baltar turns out not to be the Final Cylon, it’ll just be that much more of a disappointment for me. I mean, there is no one to better fit the Hybrid Prophecy for the FInal Cylon than Baltar. That’d be the biggest disappointment. The other arguments, the arm in D”anna’s vision, his spiritual growth and change, and the enormous influence Baltar has had in the BSG story dont necessarily have to make him the Final Cylon. See, IF Baltar is not the Final Cylon, he’s something much greater. Either a Lord of Kobol, “He Who Cannot be Named” God, a Being of Light, and/or a Jesus-type divine messenger/prophet, or a combination of all of these.
Still, if my guess on the role and purpose of the Final Cylon and the Final Five is true (them being the most evolved beings trying to help both humans and cylons make the next step in their spiritual growth), then Baltar fits this role best. However, if the Final Cylon has some other purpose, it is possible Baltar is not the FC.
And people keep saying “how cool” it’d be if so and so was the Final Cylon, people long dead, or minor characters. I still say to them, how does that make them the best fit for Final Cylon as far as the story goes, and as far as what we’ve seen so far?
If the Final Cylon is to have any sort of importance (and from what we see of the Final Five, they are VERY important, so it’s logical to assume the Final Cylon is even more important and influential than the Final Four) then they cant be anyone who has not been with us on screen since the beginning (and btw, RDM says the FC was with us from the beginning, I think he means exactly this, what I’m trying to say). And you cant make anyone fill the role of someone so important for only 3 out of the 80+ episodes of BSG. Such as bringing Cain, Ellen, Zak, Kendra etc.
Perhaps out of the “dead” or unlikely candiates, Ellen and Hera are the best for FC. Ellen does fit the Hybrid Prophecy, she has suffered a ton, sinned a lot (on New Caprica especially), and perhaps she was seeking redemption before her death? Doest fit the prophecy as well as Kendra or Baltar, but better than someone like Dualla or Cain. Gaeta kindo fits the prophecy nicely too…but he was on the Fleet so basically that throws out the window all the theories that said Dualla or Gaeta were the FC. Those theories are completely shot down in Revelations.
Anyways, I think the best clue we have for who the FC is, is to look at who best fits the Hybrid Prophecy, around the time of Razor. For example, he predicted the humans landing on a “world not of their own” which turned out to happen, as they landed on New Caprica. So some things had already happened by the time he was saying the prophecy, a lot came out to happen in Season 3 and 4. Like the three being boxed, and the Seven cylons splintering into many, and suffering. All of that came to pass.
So all we need to do is figure out when the part of the prophecy related to the Final Cylon is supposed to take place. Like who did we see asking for redemption that would come through the howls of terrible suffering? Well…Baltar of course in the first 2 eps of Season 4, but who else? Gaeta suffered a lot in S4, but he did not ask fro redemption. In fact he’s pissed as ever. So who else? Nobody else is alive that sinned so much that would seek redemption. Like Kendra did, right as the Razor was telling the prophecy, so perhaps it’s her, but Cain was long dead, and she never asked for redemption.
See…people neglect the Hybrid Prophecy…but that’s the key to the Final Cylon. Along with D’anna’s statement that the FInal Cylon was not on the human fleet at the time of Revelations…those are the 2 big clues people need to look at.
June 29th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Well i still think Hera is the FC. My theory is that cylons can reincarnate without the ressurection ship. There “resserection ship” is a woman’s womb. This would explain why the FF can age. They are like immortal beings. Well its either that or Scott Ian is da FC =P
June 29th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Sorry. i also meant to say the Kendra Shaw was the person that i think Hera reincarnated from.
June 29th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
That was one impressive bit of video editing! I’m stunned. I’m still trying to figure out how you worked around the “stop, left turn” in the middle there.
Also, not earth. It’s Terra. RDM respects TOS.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Sorry Mat and Nat, but this is one BSG cast that I did not like. Something about it just wasn’t up to par from my point of view. The rest may like it, but it didn’t flip my switch so to speak.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Rewatching revelations for a 7th time i notice some odd. All of the main characters on “earth” at the end are those who are in the last supper portrait, minus dualla and leoben and dianna (and some extras) . its just a guess but could this be another clue to the last cylon, maybe dualla?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:39 am
D’anna said the Final Cylon is not in the human fleet. That rules Dualla out, as she is on Galactica.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Let’s take the final cylon literally.
The last one “in the stream” was the 6. Where will she be be born? On a resurrection ship?
But – no more cylons can be reborn, as the hub is gone. She is the final one.
Any that follow will be 1st cross human / cylon hybrids, as cylon’s can’t reproduce by themselves.
It’s an idea…
June 30th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Hi Kaybrid and Darth and Maria, thanks for the theorys on cylon repoduction. I’m still unsure how it works exactly but I’m sure RDM will explain it in 9 months. Maybe I can ask if they are at ComicCon. Steve, Tigh and Caprica Six are now pregnant and they are both cylons so obviously, cylons can reproduce in their instance. Which brings out the whole love theory in our posts above. see ya
June 30th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Mr. Lovejoy: No problem. It’s fun to think about all these things
On another note, I seem to be obsessed with how Caprica Six and Baltar have been ignoring each other at the end of Revelations. But looking back on it though, they’ve been ignoring each other all season long.
Furthermore, we’ve barely seen Head Six at all except at the beginning (with that memorable scene where she uses Baltar like a puppet, just awesome).
Now look back to that photograph which resembles the last supper. While Baltar is reaching out to Head Six, she’s looking away as though she’s attempting to ignore him somehow, or seems preoccupied by something else. She’s not looking at Natalie (but now we know who Natalie was pointing to and why). So what is she looking at? Something greater, God? Or is she simply contemplating a greater purpose?
Well anyways, I find it interesting. It’s as though the photograph let’s us know that the Sixes are drawing away from Baltar…
But why? Has his purpose been fulfilled? Now that he believes, that he had others believe, the connection can be broken? Why has no other Six downloaded Caprica Six’s memories like the other Sharon did for Athena? After all, didn’t some of the Sixes strive to know love as well? I seem to recall, in the first season, that one of the Sixes was infuriated with the fact that Sharon/Athena could get to know love and she could not. In fact, the Number Five walking with her clearly mocks her about it. So why is it that when Baltar was on the basestar, none of them seemed to care he was there at all?
Gah, sorry ramblings
Carry on!
July 1st, 2008 at 1:15 am
Good points Maria.
I think the absence of Head Six is indeed a significant development in both Baltar’s character and in the BSG story. Basically, Head Six has been trying to “convert” Baltar from the scientic genius and skeptic that he was, to not only a believer in the One True God, but also a preacher of this belief to others. Once this transformation took place in the beginning of Season 4, Head Six’s mission with Baltar was complete, hence why we didnt see her again. Why Baltar has not seen Caprica Six and vice versa, I dont know.
However, I’m pretty sure Caprica Six has always been in that cell where she used to talk with Tigh. I dont think she ever left that cell, and I dont think any of the other Sixes on the Base Star were Caprica Six. Similarly, the Six in the last scene of Revelations on “Earth”, that is not Caprica Six, that’s just one of the “pilot” Sixes.
And my theory is Head Six has nothing to do with physical Sixes, just like Head Baltar has nothing to do with real world Baltar, and Head Leoben has nothing to do with real world Leoben. My belief is that head characters are Beings of Light, and possibly the Lords of Kobol themselves, and also, possibly, members of the 13th Tribe (just like the Final FIve).
July 1st, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Hi Maria Sutherland. I’ve often wondered if the Six in that scene you referred to was Caprica Six. Remember in Downloaded, she had trouble after downloading and had to hide her feelings/concerns for Baltar. Perhaps in that scene with the Five mocking her, she was jealous that Caprica Sharon got to show her love for the human or live it out. I’m not sure about this though. I have no proof that that was Caprica Six.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Sorry about getting the name wrong, Maria.
July 1st, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Am I the only one who feels that finding out the identity of the final cylon at this point is rather pointless and uninteresting in regards to where the show is heading and the eventual ending? I just can’t imagine anyone being revealed as the final cylon that would have any major impact on the story or ending of the show. (OMG IT’S DATA FROM TREK!!) Sure the final cylon may have an important role in shaping the ending of the show, but who that cylon is is to me totally irrelevant. Think about it. Does it really matter? I’d rather learn why the final five were forbidden to talk about, what role they play etc.
To the people suggesting the female hybrid, that’s like saying Boomer, or a random centurion is the final cylon. The hybrid is a known cylon and it’s stuck in a basestar. What would be the point in making her the FC? Would Ron Moore really be that stupid? Hell no. Might as well be suggesting tribbles or something.
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:30 am
WooHoo I’m finally caught up on the cast!!!
I’m loving all the Hera theories. I’ve been on the same tract with reincarnation. I’ll try to help bring up some points for the doubters.
To those saying that it has to be someone from the beginning as RDM has stated. Point in fact RDM says that he has had the FC picked out since season one. This fits “Hera”. Hera was CONCEIVED in season one. Now that we have come to the final season all of a sudden the writers realize they need to explain how Hera is the final cylon. What better way to explain this than to go back and rectconn Kendra Shaw into the series and make her die and come back as Hera? Notice how Razor takes place just prior to when Hera is born in “Downloaded” Kind of convenient if you ask me.
Now the point about the prophecy…
I think we have been going at the prophecy in too linear a fashion. We assume that the line is talking about the 5th in hiding after the four are awake. This could mean anytime the fifth is “in shadow”. What if the hybrid is talking about what’s about to happen aboard the old baseship? The fifth (Kendra) is still in shadow at this point. Kendra is trying to do the right thing (clawing for the light) by sacrificing herself and completing the mission in Razor. She wants to redeem herself for her actions on the Scylla. The howl of terrible suffering is both her death and the death of the hybrid.
Some interesting observations from watching Razor recently. Lines between the hybrid and Kendra.
Hybrid: Come in, Major I’ve been waiting for for a long time.
Kendra: You’re what all this is about aren’t you? What are you?
Hybrid: What am I? A man? Or am I a machine?
Hybrid: My children believe I am a God.
Kendra: Are you a God?
Hybrid: I have seen things. Your life, Kendra Shaw. The things you have done. Things you felt you had to do. All leading to this moment.
Hybrid: Do you wish to be forgiven, my child?
\\Flashback to Scylla Kendra shoots woman in the head.
Hybrid: Do you wish to be forgiven?
Kendra Yes.
Then you have the Harbinger of death line.
For starters how does the the hybrid know that Kendra is a Major when she just received that rank? Then the hybrid knows the intimate details of Kendra’s life and Kendra asks forgiveness. The only explanation I can come up with is that Kendra is a Cylon and the Hybrid has some of kind of nexus of Cylon information that he draws from. Like he can access all Cylon knowledge. This might explain the prophecies and why he knows so much. He has knowledge of the FF’s transmitted thoughts or something.
Another interesting point is that the show goes out of it’s way to point out the time line of the episode with the radio transmissions we hear. There is one about Laura’s recovery and one about the abortion ban. It’s like they trying to ensure we understand that the show takes place b4 Hera is born.
One final interesting observation is Kendra’s opening line.
Kendra: You’re born, you live and you die. There are no do-overs. No second chances to make things right if you frak them up the first time. NOT IN THIS LIFE, ANYWAY.
Now that last line is a little too cute to me. It almost feels like a gotcha line for when they revel Hera as the FC and you re watch Razor after the series ends.
Now on to my theory on how Kendra reincarnated into Hera. One thing a lot of us has wondered is how the FF resurrect, if at all. My thought is that the FF resurrect through humans or possibly they need another human/cylon child. I believe the FF are human/cylon hybrids from the last cycle. Somehow they are able to download into humans and hybrids via cylon genetic markers in all humans and cylons. Maybe the genesis of each cycle starts with hybrids and slowly through time the humans regain dominance and the cylon genes start to become diluted. Maybe hybrids pop up from time to time as a genetic fluke. When a FF cylon dies they enter the stream of “the space between life and death”. Once dead they wait there and then once a receptive person is born they are able to dl their consciousness into that child. So when Kendra died she went into the stream and when Hera was born Kendra’s cylon programming was transfered into Hera.
And the final point I will refute is that Hera can’t be the FC because she is in the fleet. When D’anna saw the FF in the space between life and death she saw them as adults where they take on their original form of the five priests who worship the one god above the many gods. D’anna wouldn’t realize or have knowledge of the FF resurrecting into children. She saw Hera as an adult and wouldn’t consider the possibility of Hera as a child being the fifth.
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:47 am
Tighfighter: You seem to have completely skipped over my arguments that Hera can’t be a reincarnation of a cylon. I’ll give it to you in summary form, but look at my previous posts to get the fuller arguments.
1. Head Six makes it clear that human cylon babies are the next generation of God’s children, following humans first, and cylons second. Hybrids as reincarnations of cylons destroys the distinction between the respective generations of God’s children.
2. Hera had been conceived for ~6-7 months at the time of Shaw’s death, and no understanding of reincarnation I have ever encountered has held that conception can predate death in a reincarnation cycle.
3. Have you not yet considered the possibility that the five cylons originating from earth might have resurrection technology on earth, thus allowing them to resurrect there?
Additionally, an issue with Shaw being the FC: When RDM sat down to settle upon the identities of the final five cylons, he did so early in the production of Season 3 according to his commentary podcasts. We know that Razor was not given a solid go-ahead until after Season 3 was done airing, so I’m making the educated guess that the character of Shaw was not present in his mind until after Razor began to take shape. Of course, I could easily be mistaken on this particular point, but it has been on my mind for a bit and deserves to be addressed.
Anyways, anyone seeking to attack my arguments is welcome to do so. However, please do me the courtesy of consulting my previous posts – I’m choosing not to take up extra space on this board by copying and pasting long arguments from above because I’m trusting people to have actually read my arguments before they respond to them.
Regards,
Signa Jade
July 2nd, 2008 at 7:56 am
I have to agree with Signa Jade. Any reincarnation can’t happen after conception. That’s just nonsensical. I hadn’t even though of that. It would be very cool if it was a reincarnation of Shaw, but it can’t happen. Not unless RDM want to stop making sense.
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Zak is the FC.
If we put together a quasi Venn diagram to determine the FC, then he/she must be a dead person, because: we eliminate (1) anyone back in the fleet during the final Revelations meeting on the Basestar, (2) anyone in the Last Supper photo, (3) and anyone who would be completely anti-climactic; and then overlay this with (1) someone who has been with BSG from the beginning and (2) someone not actively being discussed on “these boards” (according to Aaron Douglas).
As many have said, this yields a small set of dead people like Ellen, Kat, Billy, and Zak.
Obviously we all know Leoben said, “Adama is a Cylon”–that is, Zake Adama.
From a story telling perspective, RDM knows it would create an incredibly poignant ending to the series for Kara, Lee, and Bill to be reunited with Zak.
July 2nd, 2008 at 7:11 pm
SirKenneth thats something i’ve been saying for a while now. One thing that happened in the previews for the next half is that adama is leaning over someone crying and saying “you *were* the fifth”
So that has to mean its someone who is dead or dies. I believe dead because its probably a flash back dream sequence where he is sitting over his dead sons body…
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Does anyone else out their get the feeling tha maybe our good buddy Ronald himself hasn’t made up his mind as to whether or not this is Earth? Looking at it it just dosn’t seem to add up.
From a purely in universe perspective the major selling points for it being Earth is that the star formations seem to be the same, as well as the planet being habitable. From a story telling perspective, as was previously stated, it seems silly to go through all the emotinal baggage involved with finding Earth only to realize that its not and go “oops… our bad well lets keep looking”.
On the other hand if this IS Earth then why not simply have driven it home. It wouldn’t have been that difficult to do, one good look at the planet would have been enough to prove the point but we didn’t get that. Lets face it, the one scene that everyone has been waiting for since the begining of the show was the Galactica in orbit around Earth, something that we didn’t quite get here so why not? Its not as if we havn’t already gotten one glorious shot of Earth in the show already so if it is Earth why the shadow play with it? Again from a in universe perspective the prediction (and this show like Babylon 5 loves to make them come true) that the leader of the colonies wouldn’t step foot on the “promised land” would be destroyed if this is Earth as the only canditates for this were all on the planet together. Now I suppose that it could be found out if this is Earth that it is NOT this promised land (or that the whole thing was false) but their dosn’t seem to be enough time left in the series to explain and fully explore that, not after the better part of four years has been on one course to Earth as their salvation.
In the end… well who the hell knows. My money is nobody, the production crew for BSG has backed itself into a corner a lot with these cliff hangers and seems to be keeping the question open to try to find some sort of middle ground maybe.
On an off note I love that Adama points out the great inconsitency with Tigh being a cylon, that he has known him for 30 years. That little inconsitency (and one of those painting into a corner moments) nearly caused me to stop watching the show as I thought it was getting a little dumb and it was nice to see it thrown out their in the actual show.
July 2nd, 2008 at 11:36 pm
SirKenneth, couldnt have said it better myself. I’ve made all those connections myself in my “exlusion by key facts or statements” post, taking into account all we know from the show, and all the cast and crew have said.
Your post sums it up very very nicely. I agree, Zak fits ALL the statments of the cast and crew, what we know so far from the show, and it’d make for a great ending as far as Lee/Zak/Will/Kara relationships.
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:03 am
If the FC is Zak, then they are going to need to explain how it is:
1) Zak was born as a human, was abducted at some unknown age by the makers of the Final Five (Who evidently had placed Tigh in the fleet 30 years ago), killed, and replaced with a cylon, which itself died due to incompetence in a viper (we assume…).
2) How long had Zak been replaced at the time of his death? (Less than five years if replaced as a mature adult; around ten years if replaced as a teen; twenty something years if replaced as a child)
The longer the replacement, the more likely the relevant characters will have emotional investment in him as a cylon. However, the cylon makers don’t seem to specialize in designing anything younger than adults. Furthermore, for Zak to be a recognisable character in this story (and capable of having sex with Kara – something that I assume would probably come up), we’re likely to be dealing with a 20 something Zak.
No matter when Zak was replaced, Kara would have feelings for Zak as a cylon, because she would have met him post-replacement no matter when she met him. Bill and Lee would only be invested into him if he had been replaced at a young age, but this show’s preoccupation with sex (as well as the oddity of Kara running into her former fiance as a 10 year old) seems to require at least a post pubescent and probably a 20 something Zak. This means that Lee and Bill would identify this Zak as an abominable imposter of the family member they loved, cherished and mourned – a walking testament to the fact that their kindred had to die to make this possible.
All this would make for interesting story telling – yes. However, it looks like a tall order. It’s something the writers could handle well enough, but I have a suspicion that the issue of replacing a real human with a cylon look alike would introduce elements into the story the writers would just as soon avoid given some easier and more productive alternatives.
@ Mafu – RDM doesn’t write in a way that gets him to a cliff hanger, the season airs, and then afterwards he tries to figure out where to go with it. He gets the concepts of what he wants to be doing well into the rest of the season. With this last season, he’s got concepts of every episode going all the way through to the end, with most of the episodes already written, shot, and produced. What you perceive as painting into a corner should be regarded as an awkward spots between weekly episodes made to seem bigger by a 6 month hiatus.
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Signa Jade, keep in mind that if Kara can “die” in a Viper explosion and return — with very little explanation from RDM — then Zak can, too.
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Adalla and Kaydrid (no worries about the name
)
The one reason I strongly believe this is indeed Caprica Six is because of the way she approaches Tigh in that scene. I doubt it would make much sense for a “season finale.. err… half season finale…” to show a random character bond with him (well.. somewhat.)
They seem to show important/secondary characters in the foreground in that scene: Bill Adama, Roslin, D’Anna, Helo and Athena,Tori and Anders, Apollo, Baltar, Tyrol, Tigh, Dualla, Leoben, Starbuck, and finaly Caprica Six. Although I’ll admit I’m not sure about one of them… ( Just before Leoben. Looks like Lee, but we see him previously… Well, I guess he walked?) Although you do see the other models in the background, they made sure to show those we know in the foreground. Showing a random Six model touching Tigh just… doesn’t do it for me.
Not only that, but why would they let all the other Cylons walk around and leave Caprica Six in the brig? If that were the case, they probably would have put Anders, Tigh, Tori and Tyrol in the brig as well, even with D’Anna holding some form of power. But Lee granted them amnesty… Wouldn’t be fair if a handle of them were granted amnesty and not her, especially since she helped save Hera.
Signa Jade:
I agree with you that Hera cannot be the final cylon, nor could it be Kendra Shaw.
I find that Hera and Nick fill in the roles of Adam and Eve a lot more then anything else. I don’t feel they have much else to do then this in the whole series. I agree that it’s odd that Nick is not included in the recurring dreams shared by Roslin, Athena and Six… It’s not something I can quite answer yet. The way I see it, Hera would be the one to later be able to become pregnant, (and to be all cute and romantic, let’s have it with Nick
lol ) thus loosing her would be a bad thing. She needs more protection, also probably because she was the first cylon/human hybrid conceived.
If Hera is the final cylon, wouldn’t that make Nick the 13th cylon then? There’s only 12 models, pure and simple. The one missing should be someone we know or used to know…
As for Kendra Shaw… I feel there was enough closure on her in Razor that it would be unecessary to bring her back, this despite what the Hybrid said. The Hybrid told her that Cylons sometimes referred to him as God, and in her final moments, probably comes to hope it IS a God and his forgiveness would be enough so her sins would be erased. I feel we’d have heard about her again after Razor if she was such an important character. Hence why I still believe she was a “one time gig”.
BUT! IF and only IF reincarnation would come to happen in the show, then we still have Tigh and Caprica Six’s baby to consider. While I find the Hera’s coming doesn’t coincide with Kendra Shaw’s reincarnation because of the timeline, like Signa mentionned, Caprica Six’s baby comes in much later. It could be a possibility. Although I have a feeling she may have a misscariage because it’s a conception between 2 Cylons, and this even though one of them is still convincing himself he’s the same person he always was. Not to mention, Tigh obviously projects Helen onto Caprica Six, so his love is flawed, and not genuine. It shouldn’t work. It’s like making love to someone but thinking about somebody else. The love needed for cylons to procreate appears to need to be pure and well… unconditional, like Helo and Athena, and Tyrol an Callie (at first anyways).
As for Zak… Gosh I don’t know. It could be an interesting twist, but I just… can’t get into that. If he was the final Cylon, then wouldn’t that make his father a Cylon at least? Or mother? One of them would have needed to be a Cylon, otherwise it wouldn’t make much sense that even Bill Adama found himself with a son all of the sudden without asking some serious intellectual questions LOL And that also means Hera wouldn’t be the first Cylon/Human hybrid… Anyways… what Signa said. I have to agree that it would create one hell of an emotional bang between the characters though!
But he could also be an “angel” like Kara. Although I do hope SO VERY MUCH that her “death” will be explained in the last episodes or I’m gonna freak
On a quick side note… Anyone else noticed Tori is NOT in the final supper photograph? RDM once said the Final Cylon was PROBABLY but not NECESSARILY the missing person in the photo… I just thought it was interesting that Anders, Tyrol and Tigh are there but not Tori. Sorry if this has been mentionned before.
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Hi Maria. I agree with you that it’s Caprica Six in the final scene of Revelations. In fact, I never questioned it. I was wondering if it was Caprica Six in the scene you (or someone) referred to in season two, where a Six and a Five are discussing Caprica Sharon being in love with Helo (one of them says “I see you’re calling her Sharon now”). We don’t know if it’s the same Six as was with Baltar when Caprica was attacked, but I’ve always wondered.
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Signa Jade,
I dont think the Final Five have got “replaced” at any time. They were born as teh Final Five and lived their lives as the Final Five. Tigh admits this himself, by saying “it turns out there is another type of Cylon, one that can age”.
If Zak is the Final Cylon, he was born as the Final Cylon, lived as the Finaly Cylon, probably unaware like the other Four that he was a cylon, and if Kara came back from the dead, then I’m sure Zak can come back too.
July 3rd, 2008 at 5:48 pm
@ SirKenneth: Just for context on the Kara coming back from the dead – if RDM tries to get away without explaining that one, then I’m going to be a long while in forgiving him. You don’t do that without being completely able to explain it.
@ Adalla,
Wow… um… I’m sorry, but I honestly don’t even know how you can get to that understanding of the FF… Apparently we’re operating on COMPLETELY different philosophical systems here… so maybe it’s trivial for us to discuss Zak and instead get the actual basics established.
I’m working with the assumption that human model cylons are synthetic human beings – the product of advanced bio-memetic technology. To be concieved by two humans means to be born human. I see no way for a synthetic human to be the result of the merging of the sperm and egg of humans. Thus, I see no way to get around the need to replace the bilogical Zak with a synthetic Zak if in fact the Zak who died in the viper accident was the final Cylon.
I honestly don’t see how you could possibly have arrived at your conclusion by watching the same show I have been, so I’m really confused. Do me a favor in helping me to understand your argument pleas, and cite every episode you can name that indicates in whatever fashion you find persuasive that 1) Cylons are not synthetic humans, 2) cylons can be produced by biological human reproductions, or 3) whatever other points you think could give rise to your contention.
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Even though the FF can age, it’s not unreasonable to consider they might have download capability (unbeknownst to them) should they die. Perhaps when Zak died he downloaded somewhere else…like Earth?!
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:58 pm
@ SirKenneth: I agree – downloading to earth with the FF has always made sense to me.
July 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am
I haven’t said anything here in a while. Really, what else can be said? We all have our speculation, and the information is just enough to keep us going.
I still reiterate that we be careful to allow our assumptions to become truth. Frankly, there’s so much we don’t know. Of course I’m referring to a few things:
1. We don’t know what D’Anna’s statement means exactly. Did she mean “The Fifth is not in the Fleet,” “on the basestar,” “dead, and I killed him,” or was she simply withholding information to give herself an advantage later. This is D’Anna we’re talking about. She’s the line that likes to dominate (according to a Ron Moore interview). Don’t put that past her.
2. The Last Supper photo. It could still be a very reputable source. There’s just enough reason to believe it as there are to reject it. I cover this on my YouTube videos.
3. The Final Cylon is dead. We simply don’t know that. It could be. It could not be. Given that D’Anna’s statement can be interpreted several different ways, the Fifth could still be in the Fleet and her statement be correct.
4. The Final Cylon downloads to Earth. Good speculation, but that’s all we have to go on at this point. We simply can’t rest on it.
But all that aside, I want to challenge all of you on this.
We talk a lot about the Adamas. Bill’s the Admiral. Lee is important, even President for a bit. Zak: very important from behind the scenes. Now, I know a lot of you are thinking Zak’s the Final Cylon. Okay. Maybe he is. I know I’ll make enemies by saying it, but I am rejecting all of that. No, it’s nothing against any of you. If you’re right, I’ll still watch the show and love it. If you want an apology later, shoot me a line. I’ll do it.
But I’m overlooking Zak from the biological aspect. We know he was born as a human. So they’d have to explain a longshot scenario to get around it. (But of course, it’s not beyond them to do so). But I’m saying this. There is one Adama no one has mentioned yet. I think he’s the best contender out of the whole clan to be the Fifth. And that is (drumrol please)…..
Joseph Adama.
Bill’s father, whom we only know lived on Caprica, was a lawyer, raised a family, and (thanks to the upcoming Caprica series) was involved in the creation of the original Cylons. He could be the Fifth. The producers have said they’ve been planning the Final Cylon out since the end of season 1. What happened then? Remember that lighter Bill gave to Lee? When did we first see it?
Suppose Joseph is the Fifth. He’s been operating behind the scenes for a long time. Perhaps he didn’t know consciously he was a Cylon, but helping make the original models on Caprica was a subconscious act of fate. Then he disappears from his family. Do we know how he died (or rather, when he died – did he even die)? Perhaps he fled to Earth, leaving the Final Four behind, and thus insuring the Fleet’s eventual arrival.
Okay, this all sounds nuts. I admit. But that’s what speculation is all about, and that’s why BSG is so awesome.
July 4th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Signa Jade says to Adalla:
I honestly don’t see how you could possibly have arrived at your conclusion by watching the same show I have been, so I’m really confused. Do me a favor in helping me to understand your argument pleas, and cite every episode you can name that indicates in whatever fashion you find persuasive that 1) Cylons are not synthetic humans, 2) cylons can be produced by biological human reproductions, or 3) whatever other points you think could give rise to your contention.
Have to agree there.
Do agree that Zak as FC does hold good dramatic reunion capabilities tho…but how it could be Zak would have to be explained. He died and was buried. Kara blew up apparently and came back in a new ship. Godsdamn you Ron!!!
Tootie
Tootie
July 4th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
It’s not a conclusion, it’s a theory
And I’m not the only one to have this theory.
To respond to your 1), the Significant Seven cylons are synthetic artificially created cybernetic organisims. They are the next step in the evolution of artificial intelligence. From AI in a computer, to AI in a robot with metal moving parts, to a half-biological half-mechanical (hybrids) AI, and then we have the Significan Seven, which it seems are fully biologic artificially created beings. Meaning, they are created artificially in a test tube or whatever. Cylons have the technogy generate tissue and cells, and basically create the human body. And somewhere in that body is somethin akin to a computer chip that has all their brain functions, memories, processing units etc. Perhaps they are organic computer parts, who knows? The point is, they are made artificially, not naturally.
Now we know the Final Five are different, Tigh says so, the fact that they age says so, and Cylon lore says so. Cylons revere the Final Five, and consider them apart. Also, we just dont know exactly what the Final Five are. If we did, we’d probably know how the series will end. That’s part f the mystery. All we know is they are different from the Seven, and here is where my theory comes in.
To me the Final Five are most likely clones of human beings. So basically, even more biologcal and less artificial than the Seven, who have artificially created brains. I think the Final Five have biological brains, like humans. In fact, they ARE humans, cloned humans, with perhaps some modifications, which is why their eyes flash red and they can communicate with raiders at a distance.
as for your 2), I have never discussed reproduction, as I have no standing theory about it. I have no idea how Athena and Helo were able to reproduce. Tyrol and Cally makes sense to me, because of my view of the Final Five as human clones (so essentially they are humans, and can reproduce like humans). I just dont know how the Seven reproduce (Caprica Six and Athena), since in my theory they are still robots, arfitifically created and fundamentally different than humans biologically.
There is also a theory I share with others, that believe the Final Five are born as humans randomly in the population based on genetics, probability, and who would “best” be a fit for Final Cylon. So basically, when a Final Five cylon dies, they are born again in a different body, different person entirely, but with the same higher self we see in the Opera House, and they must grow and learn from scratch each time they are reborn.
So in my theory, the Final FIve dont ressurect artificially, but naturally. I.e when two humans mate and have a baby, their genetic code is transfered, and changed a bit, and if it matches a Final Five genetics, then they well, become the Final Five.
It’s a weak theory I know, but my point is the Final FIve are very different than the Seven, and the key to understanding the story. Like I said, most likely human clones (like we are trying to do today, we are cloning sheep and what not, and some are looking into human organ cloning etc).
And it’s likely RDM and the writers themselves are only now figuring out what the FInal Five are, and linking this story to the Caprica series storyline.
*********minor but common Caprica spoilers***********
I.e that Daniel Graystone cloned Zoe, which was Joseph Adama’s daughter? and cloned his wife too or something, and basically transfered Zoe’s memory to a computer to not lose her, and then eventually was able to clone her to a mechanical robot, and eventually to a fully biological body. This is where my theory that the female Hybrid on the Base Stars is actually Zoe’s clones…
~Adalla
July 4th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I DISAGREE. I BELIEVE IT’S AN EARTH TYPE PLANET.I DON’T THINK IT’S EARTH. A DEFINITE GIVEAWAY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE STATUE OF LIBERTY….EMPIRE STATE…..NOT A BRIDGE THAT MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE. EVEN LANDMASSES FROM ORBIT THAT LOOKED FAMILIAR WOULD HAVE CONVINCED ME. BUT REMEMBER THIS EARTH IS NOT THE HOME OF THE COLONIES..IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MENTIONED AT THE 13TH COLONY. I HEARD SOME PEOPLE SAY IT WAS THIER HOME AND THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE CYLONS. NEW SPIN OFF SERIES CAPRICA will DESTROY THAt THEORY. ALSO WHO SAVED STARBUCK, GAVE HER A BRAND NEW VIPER, AND TRANSMITTED CO-ORDINATES TO THEM??? SOMEONE IS WATCHING THEM. SOMEONE WANTS TO TEST THEM. SOMEONE WITH FAR GREATER TECHNOLOGY. ABLE TO TRANSPORT AN INDIVIDUAL LIGHT YEARS AWAY. I SAY THE 5TH CYLON…AND THE GOVT OF EARTH..ARE WATCHING..AND TESTING THEM. THE PLANET THEY ARE ON COULD BE A PARALLEL EARTH..OR EVEN A MOCK UP. REMEMBER THIS IS SCIENCE FICTION…ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:44 am
@ Adalla – Okay, thanks for the explanation. Needless to say, I disagree quite completely, but at least I understand you better. I’ll leave the subject alone until there’s new information to chew on. Thanks for fielding the questions.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:51 am
@ trueedge2097 – The main issue with Joseph Adama as a cylon that I see is that he predated the first cylon war. My assumption is that the skin-jobs came online no sooner than 30 years before the 2nd war, and probably later, and having such advanced cylons before cylons rebelled seems tough to swallow.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Hmm..
Adalla, I do like and understand your theory, yet I still disagree. Funny enough, perhaps I’m too stuck on the old school thinking (or not, who knows
) but I tend to put Cylons as… Cylons, be they Final Fives or regular Cylons. The difference between the twelve models and the Centurions is that their envelope is essentially different. They want to be human, no matter how much they say they’re not. In the end, some of them come to admit to wanting to be human, like when Caprica Six is explaining Tigh that she’s no different then he is. “Look! Veins!…”
(However, it could also be that she sensed he was one of the Final Fives and was trying to prove that she wasn’t so different. But then why would she beat on him if she’s supposed to revere and borderline fear him? So I don’t think she knew.)
To me the Final Fives are no different then the 7 other models, except that they’re most likely more advanced then they are. I too believe that they could reincarnate on Earth, hence why the last Cylon is probably waiting for them on the planet. Also I believe that the Final Fives are so much higher then the other 7 models, who are, for the lot of them, driven by rage and hatred toward their “parents”, whereas the Final Fives have lived among humans long enough to know that humans aren’t necessarily the destructive beasts the others were lead to believe. They fought among them, lived with them, understood them, but their awakening also brings in a whole new perspective where they also understand the Cylons. They’re acting as mediators.
Like Adalla, I too believe one of the models is Joseph Adama’s daughter or wife. Daughter may be a bit far fetched, but the wife is an idea. The only “hic” I have about it is that William Adama, upon encountering one of them, should have been able to say “Hey! That’s my mom!” lol BUT!… We never know. Some people will block out things from their past into a complete black out. Or anything else is possible, really… Although it would be an interesting and disturbing twist to find that the Six’ were based off Adama’s mother O_O….
Also, it was made clear in the first season that for a Cylon to be able to reproduce with a human, the human needs to love that cylon. Helo loves Athena, and were able to conceive a child. Callie loved the Tyrol, and in comes Nick. Caprica Six had been trying to get Baltar to love her. Leoben had been trying to get Kara to love him in that same fashion (though in a much more brutal way). As for Tigh and Caprica Six, I stand by my beliefs that Tigh is the most “human” of them, and because he’s projecting Helen onto her, his love is directed toward Helen before Caprica Six. But because his love is flawed, I have a feeling the child won’t see the light of day.
As for this being an “alternate Earth”… Hm… This will need to be very well explained. lol
July 5th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
I just got finished watching the entire four seasons of BSG for the first frakking time. It took two weeks. I don’t have cable and never got
“into” the show until I told someone that I watched “Lost” and he said he liked BSG.
I felt like a switched had been turned on in my head. I couldn’t control myself as I searched and hunted my way to watching the entire series. I think I’m the final Cylon now. I must be.
You may call me “Skinjob Tom.”
Now, let’s build some huts on this god forsaken planet and get FRAKKIN’!
July 5th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
i kno this rly kinda doesnt have nethin to do w/ bsg but is thios kate sackoff sayin “stop it your killing him” in the follwin link:
http://projectabraham.com/
July 6th, 2008 at 10:33 am
She’s a great actress. Thanks for the link!
July 7th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Greetings.
I just found this website and I really enjoyed watching the BSGcasts and reading through the posts. I must admit – the green screen “faux-walking” hooked me. Just brilliant!
There have been many very creative, interesting and thought provoking posts on this site and I wanted to weigh in with my own theory regarding the discovery of Earth in “Revelations”. If you look at this from a Naturalistic Science Fiction (NSF) perspective, it is highly unlikely that any time travel or parallel universe explanations would be used by Ronald D. Moore (RDM). With these “Trek-esque” options safely discarded, there are essentially three remaining possibilities: 1. This is Earth in the Future, 2. This is Earth in the Past or 3. This is NOT Earth at all. Whatever the final answer proves to be, it has to work within the context of eternal recurrence: “All this has happened before. All this will happen again.”
1. Earth’s Future: I flatly don’t see RDM concluding the BSG series in Earth’s future. To begin, it’s copycat and counter everything RDM was trying accomplish with his re-imagined series as “space drama”. I also don’t know how “green” RDM is, but I seriously doubt he would use BSG as a platform to promote environmental conservation or geopolitical restraint. I just can’t imagine a scene with Admiral Adama on his hands and knees pounding the black sand of Earth exclaiming “You maniacs! You blew it all up!” in some cheesy Planet of the Apes revelation in the shadow of a ruined Brooklyn Bridge standing in for the previously used Statue of Liberty. This is easily the weakest – and most stereotypical – possibility.
2. Earth’s Past: To me, it is somewhat unlikely that RDM would set the story in Earth’s past as the ruins seen on the surface were substantial and undoubtedly would have survived as part of Earth’s archeological record to be discovered by modern man, which conflicts with a NSF philosophy. However, an argument could be made for an ancient Earth setting if we learn that the ruins we saw were located on a now lost continent, like Atlantis. This would also explain any “unfamiliar” continental formations seen from orbit. Perhaps, in the series finale, they’ll name their shining new city Atlantis and that’s how we become shockingly enlightened to the “truth”. Moreover, their arrival back on Earth completes the cycle. Then, at some point (after the series finale), long after Earth has been settled by the surviving humans of the Twelve Colonies and their Cylon allies – but still in our ancient past – another great cataclysm occurs. This cataclysm completely destroys their civilization and leaves no physical remains on Earth and forms the basis of Plato’s mythological account. Presumably, some survivors escape the cataclysm on Earth and are forced back to the cosmos to begin the cycle of eternal recurrence again. Maybe they’ll even head back to Caprica, just in time for RDM’s new series (LOL). The weakness of this possibility lies in the fate of the Thirteenth Tribe – UNLESS – they themselves are the lost Thirteenth Tribe and Earth was their original home all along. This option leaves some continuity points to resolve, but it’s still an interesting possibility.
3. Not Earth at all: Using true Holmesian logic, “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” While the two above alternatives are certainly not “impossible” – after all, what is beyond possible in a fictitious story anyway – the possibility exists that this is not Earth. We already know that the fabled Thirteenth Tribe stopped on the “algae planet” and built the Temple of Five to guide the other Twelve Tribes back to Earth through the “Eye of Jupiter”. What if the Thirteenth Tribe NEVER made it back to Earth after their exodus from Kobol? What if the “Colonial transponder” signal was from the great galleon the Thirteenth Tribe used to evacuate Kobol and they were forced to crash land on a habitable planet somewhere along the route back to Earth.
In the grand tradition of the Greek Tragedy, the hero misinterprets the signs of prophecy, and it’s through his/her “blind” actions that the prophecy becomes fulfilled. It would make sense, then, that the BSG crew misinterpreted the prophecy and were lead instead to this other planet that, in turn, holds the key to the fulfillment of the true prophecy and their destiny on Earth. The Thirteenth Tribe failed in their mission to return to Earth, but in their failure, they made it possible for the remaining Twelve Tribes to succeed. By the same token, the Twelve Tribes mistakenly thought they accurately interpreted prophecy to locate Earth, but landed on the planet where the Thirteenth Tribe’s journey ended. It was only because BOTH failed in their intended courses that their paths fatefully crossed thus allowing the Twelve Tribes to locate Earth and fulfill the prophecy. It’s a long shot, but certainly a valid possibility and maybe the most interesting one of all.
Beginning with the assumption that human life originated on Earth and that Humans and Cylons alike are locked in the cycle of eternal recurrence, it simply becomes a coin toss as to WHEN in the cycle we are seeing on screen. It’s an arbitrary choice for RDM – who is likely to opt for the least obvious route for dramatic effect. In the end, the cycle has to be completed in order for it to continue and begin again. The Twelve Tribes will find Earth. It has been written: “All this has happened before. All this will happen again.”
July 8th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Greetings to,,,,,
Panzerleader and Tiberius 1111 ( in posting order)—from Jason1
Ok we know this cant be earth,,,and we see that it still follows the oldschool TV series,,,,,in fact it was wonderfull to hear “3-Diana” over the radio because her voice was the most ‘vocoder”ed of anyone on the series…….
Tired of the Blue name people running on about Ron Moore or Moore Ron ,,,just stick to the story,,,,,,,,and fill in the little details as always,,, just as in Razor there are more old farts/cyclons floating around out there than you know….
With Lots O Cylon Love (and thinking) Jason1
July 8th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Hey Matt & Nat,
I just saw a Video about the BSG Wrap Party on YouTube (very poor quality).
Do you have good connections to the makers of BSG? Can you get that video for your BSGcast???
Can`t live without my BSG….yes I’m an addict
July 8th, 2008 at 10:35 am
p.s. I mean the original video not that poor quality one….
July 8th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Why does everyone dispute that it is earth? Ron Moore said himself in the Commentary with the other writers that it was earth on Scifi…. And it’d be rather stupid to NOT be earth after all this time…
July 8th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Signa Jade,
I was travelling this weekend. I only saw your post just now. You bring up a good point about my Joseph Adama argument, but I need to respond to it.
It is very, very likely that the Final Five predate everything we see on the show thus far. Remember the Temple on the Algae Planet? When did it carbon date to? And who was built for? The five priests who serve the unnamed God. When D’Anna was in this Temple, at the right time, she saw the Five.
There’s no question there’s a connection. Since the Temple was built nearly 4,000 years ago, that means the Five might indeed be that old.
What we don’t know is to what extent the Five are different from the rest. Since they are different, and the Last is left, we can conclude that the Last is also different from the Four.
Add it all up, and given what we don’t know about Jospeh Adama, it’s still very likely Joe Adama is a good contender.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Some points:
we need to decide what to believe – maybe RDM is trying to throw the fans off by making characters lie – I think D’Anna is lying about only 4 being in the fleet – or she really does not know who the fifth is (as she could not possibly know everyone in the fleet). This could be easliy explained as protection for the fifth or herself and it came in handy during the standoff with Lee as he was not able to put all the FF in the airlock.
I still strongly believe the 5th is the various head characters playing out using puppet humans/cylons to shape the future. It will be of more significance that the 5th is the head character as apposed to what human/cylon form it takes when revealed. Perhaps the 5th has the ability to project itself into the fleet from earth from time to time to play a real character (I still like Doc Cottle) or a head character.
The final will not be any other cylon/object so physical instances of head six /baltar/hybrid/scar/earth/galaticia etc would not fly – nor people like Zak Adama also recall that Leoben does not know the final five so his comment that “Adama is a cylon” should die with the importance to only freak out Roslin in the moment.
Think about it and lets discuss what we really should believe as fact. I support the “last supper” theory that the final is not in it plus the hybrid propephy – but the danger in this is the interpretation as you could find instances where many characters could fulfill the proph.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
I don’t know what else I can add to this discussion at this point. I’m trying to amuse myself until January. I’ve decided to watch everything else that EJO was in. I’ve already covered Bladerunner. I’m not looking forward to Miami Vice.
I thought maybe some of you who aren’t familiar with 1980s Canadian TV may not have seen this. This is Doc Cottle as we know him. Please click on the link above, and enjoy.
July 9th, 2008 at 5:43 am
click on my name above for a Canadian tv show from the late 90s. You’ll see Sharon and Jammer.
July 9th, 2008 at 6:11 am
The best I could do for Micheal Hogan in Cold Squad was a fan vid. There’s lots of Hogan face time in it though, and a few elements of Col. Tigh, I think. Click on my name above and enjoy.
July 9th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Warning: I’m just rattling off what I think is going on, but on the offchance it’s true then this whole post is a spoiler.
I figured it would be a post-apocalyptic Earth. I see a lot of people here curious about the devolution of human technology. In my opinion as far as the story line goes, it has already begun. Of 12 colonized planets only 49,317 survived (http ://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Survivor_count), though it’s about 39,665 now. That’s teeny tiny fraction of 12 planets worth of knowledge simply ‘gone.’ All that remains is in the minds of a small number of people and some technology. A small number of people left with the prophesy stating ‘this has happened before, and will happen again.’ Eager to break the cycle they dismantle the ships and abandon space travel, confining people to the surface determined that this is the last time this will ever happen.
As time goes by the more the remaining technology breaks down, the fewer people remain that know how to fix it. We’ve seen that books are a rarity. But even they would wither away. History notes that one of the most significant Egyptian discoveries caused the loss of a large portion of their culture to history: papyrus.
Even if they want to keep the computers, what are the odds that the ship’s computers contain the knowledge to rebuild a civilization? And even so, eventually they would have to find a way to process the raw materials to form the dies to make the tools to fix the machines that run the computers that contain such information. If a motherboard fries or a processor overheats–how could they replace it? If it takes more than 20 years to pull it off, you’re looking at an entire generation lost and replaced by one new and lesser-trained. Process repeats until every computer sputters out, every machine seizes, the tools rust and are discarded in favor of consuming their time with adapting to their surroundings to survive on this foreign world. This creates the world’s first social groups. After a time, Earth is all they know and all they believe they come from despite the myths that were passed down from a religiously zealous diluted ‘prehistoric’ man.
It applies even if Cylons are integrated into the fold. Without the ability to resurrect, they are in the same pickle. It took from the year 1833 to basically now to get processing power from the point of foundation and realization to full integration with abilities that the colonists would appreciate. 195 years later you’re reading this message from home or work quite easily. BUT, 195 years ago most of the world was colonized and reached a social, educational, and technological level beyond mere ’survival—where it was practical to spend time discovering the semi-conductor effect rather than devoting full resources to implement maintaining a society. They’re not even there yet. The colonists are fast approaching ‘zero’ and must begin again. I can see their priorities beginning at using Earth’s natural resources to meet the needs of survival. They will scatter into smaller colonies dicing the Colonial’s knowledge base into little bits and pieces. Each colony then socially evolves independent of the others.
One day in the distant future, their past forgotten, Earth is inhospitable due to a natural or man-made disaster. Only a few survive and escape across the vastness of space to a new planet, perhaps even Kobol, and colonize it the same way. Presumably a natural or man-made disaster forces an exodus and humans disperse into 12 colonies (maybe more or less this time around). They create the machine underclass which attains self-awareness and inevitably leads to war. Process repeats ad infinitum. Continually highlighting the idea that it may be our nature to create and take for granted the tools of our own destruction.
And this makes the prophesy self-fulfilling. For knowledge of the prophesy almost demands humans and Cylons alike to make a change that inevitably continues the cycle. Telling people to do something eventually reduces to nothing. Telling them ‘not’ to do something eventually reduces to someone doing it.
Stepping back from hypothesizing into pure speculation…things that were set up to ‘not’ be done are events which potentially break the cycle. Not following Starbuck, for example. Following her led to the destruction of the resurrection Hub and knowledge of the prophesy. If the Cylons could continue to regenerate then knowledge of the cycle of events could be retained. Or not seeking out the final 5 and blindly following the path to humanity’s destruction—something that could have happened a couple of times were it not for the possibility of discovering the final 5. That’s all I can think of right now, but I’m willing to wager that any other ‘forbiddens’ have the same potential.
From speculation to just plain spitballing: What I find intriguing is who set up these forbiddens? A higher power? Is it a ragtag group of Cylons (toasters probably) from the previous cycle connecting with the new? Is this where the Cylon civil war is relevant thus by splitting the Cylons into human integrators and those cast to the four corners? Those that remain and replenish the human/cylon gene pool and carry with their genes hidden data which is the truth able to guide by influence alone after being diluted for thousands of years? Since there are only three pure Cylon skinjob models aligning with the humans, perhaps in this cycle their progeny will be a “final three.”
July 9th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
I’ve never been very good at second-guessing the writers of any show, so I apologize in advance if my last post is completely off base.
July 9th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
1.All of this talk about the final cylon, and noone suspects the Lawyer? You know, they one that helped Lee defend Baltar? He is the perfect candidate to be a Cylon.
2. It is clear that if they landed on Earth, this is where the cycle began, not ended. I think the eye of Jupiter, the beacon that was killing the cylons(You probably forgot about that also) were markers put in place to help the ancient travelers find their way back to earth. This would definitely explain the origin of the names of the colonies.
3. I have always believed the “13th Tribe” was actually the orignal tribe that the other 12 started from.
4. I also think the number one model not only knows who the final 5 are, but knew where earth was all along.
5. Why is everyone ruling out that maybe the Cylons went on an expedition to find Earth already. This would explain why the Hybreds would know so much about it. It would also explain. This would also explain why the Cylons knew so much about the scriptures and their meaning.
I am kind of disapointed in the writers at this point. It seems they have ran out of ideas and subject matter. They have everything setup, but they are getting to the point where they are about to ruin a good series. I just hope this show does not suffer a horrible ending. Right now season 4 is just not doing justice to season 1 and 2.
Oh well, on to the future!
Great Podcast Matt + Nat
July 10th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Where they landed doesn’t necessarily ‘have’ to be the original home planet Earth, it makes sense that every cycle or two they end up on a new never-before inhabited planet and populate. All this planet that they landed on ‘has’ to be is a planet they used from a previous cycle that they believed to be Earth or an interim location such as a New Caprica either with relative proximity to the view of the constellations. In my opinion, original Earth lost its significance once they entered the cycle. Granted that landing on a planet of ruins is generally bracing, it doesn’t really matter. Depending on how the cycles played out, these people could have populated and ruined (or to their credit: necessarily fled from) every habitable planet this side of the universe. This planet being the most recent one dubbed “Earth.” Remember when they landed on New Caprica? Hey it’s Earth we found Earth! Oh wait, no we haven’t.
The more I think about it the more I am convinced the FF are not Cylons that have been planted amongst the humans by other Cylons. Given the prophesy, it makes perfect sense for them to be descendants of the head models of skinjobs that integrated with the human race from the last cycle. It’s already been noted of the four their proximity to leadership in the fleet. This could be a genetic predisposition to leadership, but flawed by diluted genetics to prevent them from actually being leaders. They switched on when they reached a familiar landmark from their ancestors’ journey. Sort of a little “hey, something didn’t go right this time—again.” I’m deviating, sorry. Every time we try to deduce how the FF became part of the original fleet we come up dry. There are absolutely no clues to guide us through the quagmire of suppositions. That is UNLESS they have always been there through the generations passing their ‘genes’ or ‘programming’ on to their progeny. The prophesy says ‘this has happened before, and will happen again’ making this, in my opinion, the simplest and most practical answer. The new Cylons are already beginning to mix with the humans, who for all we know are all part Cylon from the previous cycle.
After a couple hundred generations of genetic dilution they have enough of their programming to recognize the significance of things but not enough to know what to do with it. This would explain why even though they’ve been “activated” they are essentially clueless driven by instinct rather than logic.
This leads me to question why they are all drawn to Starbuck’s viper. I can see why they would be drawn together in the first place, but the events surrounding Starbuck’s viper are so singular that I don’t see why they would have any connection with it.
Perhaps there are two forces at work…one to perpetuate the cycle, and one to break it by whatever means necessary. One that was designed by people and Cylons of the past to prevent events from repeating themselves and another (perhaps natural and logical order of things?) pushing them into the loop.
Maybe they went to the viper to destroy the navigational beacon to prevent it from guiding everyone back to this planet. They just forgot Step 2.
July 10th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Gideon
1. I agree that where they landed does not have to be Earth. The question is, does it really matter?
2. I think the writers screwed up when it comes to the FF. Come on here! What are the odds that the FF would be living amonst the humans, the humans get almost exterminated, what is left of the human race runs….. but wait, at least 4 of these cylons wind up in the same place at the same time 2 years later? On the same ship? Everyone of them tied to a key charactor? Having babies, and killing their own kind? This alone is the biggest hole in the story.
3. How could the Cylons have been part of the last Cycle, when the humans in this cycle created them. This has been clearly stated through out the show. I am starting not to believe the FF are not Cylons either, at least how we know them. Remember in the prophecy, the humans had their 5 figures also.
4. You are still ruling out the Number 1 model. Why is he so protective not to expose the final 5. Who was the one that forbid the cylons to think about the final 5 in the first place? A higher being that has not been introduced yet? Emperious Leader perhaps?
5. How come the older Centurians can talk (As seen in Razor) but the new centurians cant? Who made this decision?
6. The Cylons have started their own cycle. Think about it. The new skin jobs have turn the centurians back into slaves. This is the same thing the humans created them to be in the first place! The Cylons in this series are actng out a rendition of “Animal Farm” (The story about the formation of communism). Now we have a situation where the Centurians once again are having to liberate themselves from the tyrant masters. This alone is a cycle with in itself.
I think you are taking the Cylons back too far in the game. The Cylons started in this cycle, and evolved in this cycle. Whatever they are, they learned from the study of humans.
July 11th, 2008 at 9:25 am
1. I agree that where they landed does not have to be Earth. The question is, does it really matter?
Well, I like to think it is. There’s not a lot of episodes left… and this season already feels rushed enough as it is. I’d be very sad if it weren’t Earth. But I guess we’ll see.
2. I think the writers screwed up when it comes to the FF. Come on here! What are the odds that the FF would be living amonst the humans, the humans get almost exterminated, what is left of the human race runs….. but wait, at least 4 of these cylons wind up in the same place at the same time 2 years later? On the same ship? Everyone of them tied to a key charactor? Having babies, and killing their own kind? This alone is the biggest hole in the story.
I think they’re just not sure what to do with the FF anymore. There are some episodes left though, so I do hope that they’ll be given a higher and better purpose, because technically, although Tyrol FELT Starbuck’s viper had changed, it’s still the Viper which gave out the directions to Earth.
However, I still think they made sense in the story. If the FF were programmed to find hop on the fleet and get close to the important figures remaining, then why not?
Tigh managed to get close to Bill Adama. Although he had no idea he was a Cylon up until now, his programming told him he had to make an impression and get close to him, or someone who had the potential to become commander of a battlestar. Gina attempted to get close to Cain after all, although Gina was aware of who she was.
Tori needed to get close to Laura Roslin. It was an act of fate that Billy died, but Tori had to be part of Laura’s assistants to be nominated for her post. She may have found another way otherwise.
Tyrol got the job as the Chief, taking care of the most important part on the Galactica: The Vipers. When he screws up a repair, I think he realizes with fear that he could be programmed to sabotage the vipers and kill the pilots defending the fleet. That and reproduction I suppose.
Anders is the only one who didn’t have a vital position or ally… but he DID get close to Starbuck, who’s a key character. The closest he had time to get was to her and to the vipers which he ends up piloting.
So if you see it as programming like Sharon was programmed to infiltrate the Galactica and mount a coup d’état on the commander of the ship (and sabotage the battlestar) then I think it makes sense.
3. How could the Cylons have been part of the last Cycle, when the humans in this cycle created them. This has been clearly stated through out the show. I am starting not to believe the FF are not Cylons either, at least how we know them. Remember in the prophecy, the humans had their 5 figures also.
I see it kinda like The Dark Tower. Everything has happened before and will happen again. It’s a wheel that keeps on turning, and you can’t escape it. Perhaps another cycle happened where man created machines who rebelled and tried to be human and alive. They reproduced in the same manner as now and lost their synthetic side. So here you have the ‘humans’ who used to be synthetic but evolved into flesh and blood. Same as now. Or you can come up with a different race, etc…. Leoben states in the first season when Starbuck’s torturing him that before she could have been the one being tortured and he the captor, etc….
4. You are still ruling out the Number 1 model. Why is he so protective not to expose the final 5. Who was the one that forbid the cylons to think about the final 5 in the first place? A higher being that has not been introduced yet? Emperious Leader perhaps?
Perhaps his plan is to stop the cycle alltogether. It appears that for the cycle to be complete, it needs the FF`s. Most models are aware that no matter what, what is happening now will happen again. This time, it will happen to them. Some have accepted this fate in the name of their one true god, but others, like N.1, refuses to believe this. Why would he want the cycle to be complete and then repeat itself? It seems like a survival thing to me. Might as well do everything possible to break the cycle and survive. He was even willing to sacrifice one of their unifying models (D’Anna) for that.
5. How come the older Centurians can talk (As seen in Razor) but the new centurians cant? Who made this decision?
I’d like to know who made that decision as well. Hopefully, with the upcoming movies, the remaining episodes, and the new series, Caprica, we’ll get those answers. However, as to why, I think you’ve answered your own question with the 6th point. I think most skinjob models are oblivious to the fact that they are reliving the same cycle among themselves, the same that the humans are living. The Centurions have remained slaves, whereas those who look human have taken the power. In order to keep the Centurions from rebelling, they stopped their speach patterns and free will. Natalie clearly noticed that and saw allies in Centurions. But by giving them free will, it’s obvious they’re now turning on their “masters”, who claimed from the beginning that they were all equal. Yet it was a clear lie. Your comparison to Animal Farm is actually very accurate in that sense.
I agree with you about the Cylons starting the cycle this time around. Or perhaps it really was the humans since they created the cylons. Andd eventually, another creation may very well start the cycle again later… That is, if they lose the knowledge of what has happened in the past. Humans repeat their mistakes because they forget. Countless wars have come to pass, each and every single one was a time of learning, yet it’s always forgotten and started again. We live our own cycle. The Cylons are learning that as long as they strive to be human, they’ll become part of that same cycle and redo their mistakes in the future, would they survive and procreate. I believe Cavil understands that hence why he refuses to see himself as anything else but a machine.
In fact, I see it like this: if the cylon/human hybrids are the “new generation”, then what says humanity was not the same before? So seeing it in that sense, that means the “humans” cannot stop themselves from re-creating what they used to be, evolving, rebelling, surviving, forgetting; re-creating, evolving, rebelling, surviving, forgetting; it goes on and on and on…
You know, after all that, it almost makes you feel as though Cavil is the only one who understand what’s happening. He knows that by becoming more human then machine, he’ll forget. He doesn’t want that. In a sick, twisted sense, he’s kind of… the good guy…. Creepy huh?
July 11th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
roslin 14 posted this on youtube, (the links in my name). at 0.40 you can just see the face of one of the FF.It looks more like Tigh than anyone else we know to be a FF, but I still think it’s someone else. I don’t know what Zak looks like, it might be him.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
trueedge2097 – Good point about the Temple of the Five… That’s good food for thought, even though I still have difficulty swallowing Joseph Adama as the FF.
July 11th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
1) I have been to all the message boards, forums, etc. I think RDM has created his own “who shot JR” phenom with the final cylon and what planet that they have arrived on. Got to give him credit for that.
2) I hope he does not mess it up with a “whole season” being a dream type stunt.
3) I keep hearin that there are going to webisodes linking the two halves of the season. Could the final cylon be in a recon mission sent ahead of the fleet before the hub was destroyed. Is anybody missing from the last couple of episodes.
4) I do not remember, did the oracle lady from New Caprica survive? She would have been (or would be) a great fifth cylon.
5) The humans had their robots long before the cylons rebelled. I understand Tigh is older than the rebellion, but it had to be planned and cylons may have tried programing (or creating) humans in secret before the rebellion occured.
6) There are lots of ways the final five could have been to earth e.g. They were part of an all cylon scout ship that went off course and “cylon central” repressed the information.
7) The old sage says “Everyone is a critic…” I hope the ending does us well.
July 12th, 2008 at 3:46 am
First I want to thank Mat and Nat, I love, love, love BSGCast. Moreover, I just want all the other fan to know, that while we may disagree on the road map and what the directions actually say, it was great to know that I was not the only BSG fan on the planet, sometimes I feel so isolated. Pretty soon we will know who is right and who is wrong. The good thing is we traveled together. Agreeing to disagree to the bitter end.
Second, for those that think Kendra Shaw is the Fifth, while I hope she is not, remember this is the RDM Battlestar Universe, if you must have love to even conceive a child, why then would it be a leap to say that the soul or consciousness attaches after conception but before birth. In fact that is no leap at all. Quoting Head Six “That would follow” .
Third, I really think it Tom Z, he is my first choice for the reasons outlined in my initial post.
Responses to “BSGcast: 4.09 “Guess What’s Coming to Dinner, Nikcara:
May 21st, 2008 at 5:21 am [funny I only seem to post when I am on vacation, and crazy late at night, interesting]
However, I am always open to being up for a new theory and I now have one based in large part on what other people have written.
Ron said: The Final Cylon is not in the picture of the last supper. Tom, Felix, Anastasia , Billy, Ellen
Ron said: The Final Cylon has been with us from the beginning. Tom, Felix, Anastasia, Billy, Ellen. —–There was a picture of Tigh’s wife, different actress but that is who she represented, Ellen and Tom was on the Astral Queen.
The Final Cylon is someone D’Anna had never seen before; therefore, she doesn’t know, Anastasia, Billy, Ellen. Anastasia was on Pegaus as XO, Billy was dead, Ellen didn’t deal with women so there was a low chance that particular D’Anna saw Ellen. Tom was VP and was put in jail early and D’Anna probably was a part of that.
The Final Cylon is someone D’Anna apologized to. Tom or Tigh
Hybrid said: And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.
Who is in shadow: Anastasia: it would be easy to say that CIC is always dark and thus in shadow, but the real point is that she is in the shadow of Starbuck for Apollo’s love, what did she do to redeem herself she risked her life to bring Starbuck back to Apollo, great suffering she is traumatized about Apollo’s rejection the death of her parents, the destruction of the colonies, she was the only person visibly crying in the miniseries; Felix, CIC again too easy, election of Baltar, New Caprica was his redemption providing the code to allow the transmissions, The Trial of Baltar; Ellen was deceptive from day one; Billy backed up Laura quietly but was in the shadow of Apollo for Anastasia’s love and died in the act of redemption. Tom, terrorist turned…..saint, his redemption is all around us, call off the mutiny on the Astral Queen, being nominated to the Quorum, going to jail on New Caprica because he would not abide the occupation, pulling Laura out of the way on New Caprica , engineering the Circle to save Laura the trouble, the list goes on.
But the idea I am now open to is the 12 gods of the Greek Pantheon, something I had not considered until today;
GREEK Cylon
Aphrodite Six
Apollo Anders
Ares Tigh
Artemis Tori
Athena Sharon
Demeter
Dionysus Simon
Hephaestus Tyrol
Hera D’Anna
Hermes Doral
Poseidon Leoben
Zeus Cavil
I think they all fit which would leave the fifth to be in a woman’s place even if you don’t like my organization, we can get into the placement in a different post. D’Anna is running the show which makes her Hera. Demeter is always an older woman, making Ellen the perfect pick, but if you make Tori –Hera, and move D’Anna to Demeter, that puts Anastasia as Artemis. My point, I like the theory of the fifth being a woman, but I am still stuck on Tom Z, just makes more sense to me but….
Leoben said: Adama is a cylon.
William Adama would be crazy at this point, plus he was in the picture
Lee would be to cute plus one, and he too was in the picture
Zak is dead and was only a memory never really part of the story in a valuable way
That leave only one Adama left……Anastasia Dualla Adama
She was active with Tigh in trying to rig the election for Laura to win,
She has always been loyal to the human race.
Where was Anastasia when the ship jumped into the Ionia Nebula? Why was Felix reporting the ships in? Why did she come in at the last moment?
Just seems to work but I still say that the smart money is on Tom Z especially because of the preview.
Since I am up this late………………
The cycle of time
Pythia traveled to Earth with the 13th tribe and back to Kobol to leave with the Galleon.
Galleon and Galactica, …….. hummmm
The final five are from Earth ………….. Pythia was a member of the Five
How do the resurrect?
Ron: The final five are different kind of cylons.
I like that the final five resurrect via sexual reproduction, Galen memories of his parents were real, Saul service is real, both he and William Adama remember it.
Perhaps they only procreate with people with certain traits.
Enemies becoming one, well Tigh and Six’s baby would be a new kind of cylon, since Six and Saul or different. By the way, it was Caprica Six with Saul not just some random pilot.
So the people of Earth got obliterated like the people of Kobal they are going to find a New Earth
The planet they think is earth is it, our distant future, the near past. How much to you want to be that the people of Earth departed on the Galleon.
Well, I am falling asleep.
July 12th, 2008 at 9:23 am
After some sleep, lets continue:
I used to think that one of the Final Five and the perfect Fifth was Helena Cain, she too fits, but was not there from the beginning. She clearly struggled for redemption, based on Razor from her childhood. Pegaus was in Shadow for the longest time, the Frak You with tears was the howl of agony……
Unless Razor makes everything reset to Kendra and Lee at the Caprica Transferstation and that is the beginning?
Back to Kendra Shaw: some have suggested that it was weird that the Old Man Hybrid offered her redemption, have we forgotten that a human Oracle interpreted D’Anna dream of finding Hera on New Caprica? Again not unusual in the RDM Battlestar Universe for interspecies mysticisim and spritiual cross-over, thier stories and lives are very much intertwined.
Kendra was struggling for redemption, she was in agony, but no howl that I can remember unless you count her drug addiction. Stilll, her Asian looks could be the key, but then again she could be South American too. A quick Imdb look up reveals that Kendra was played by Stephanie Chaves-Jacobsen, nothing Asian in her name but that does not matter these days but Chaves is clearly Hispanic.
Oh and of course I looked at season four’s last epi while I was typing last night, when Six and Baltar had Hera, Six looked at the five and one was very short, that really in my mind makes it Anastasia or Kendra. [even though I still think the Fifth is Tom Z] especially since it looked like a man when Saul said “So you are the Fifth”.
Some have suggested that Boxey is the Fifth, I just disagree. Going back to sleep now.
July 12th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
The 12th Cylon is the unborn child of Caprica Six and Colonel Tigh. This would explain why the fifth Cylon isnt onboard the Colonial Fleet, because he istn born yet and Caprica will probably have him on Earth, so he would also be the first true “Terran”. Also, this means that Cylons are capable to procreat like humans, so they no longer need us for it.
July 14th, 2008 at 8:59 am
PaulC3 Says: Why does everyone dispute that it is earth? Ron Moore said himself in the Commentary with the other writers that it was earth on Scifi…. And it’d be rather stupid to NOT be earth after all this time…
If it was definitely Earth, the ruined landscape would have revealed a definite Earth landscape. Ron isn’t giving that away yet. As for your final comment, I think it would be the opposite. It would be stupid for this to be Earth, because what next? Having Earth somewhere else gives us some plot…and hope for some good ole’ happy ending plot.
I am wondering recently what is the role of the final cylon? To prevent annihilation of humans and/or cylons when Cavil’s group shows up? To bridge the gap between races? Not sure. Once we have the role and plot, which character it is becomes much more obvious, I would think.
Anyway, here’s something I plan to purchase to ease the withdrawl:
Battlestar Galactica and Philosophy: Knowledge Here Begins Out There
Format:Trade Paperback Published:January 4, 2008 Published By:John Wiley & Sons
The following ISBNs are associated with this title: ISBN – 10:1405178140 ISBN – 13:9781405178143
From the Publisher: This thought-provoking book examines the philosophical issues arising from the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica
television series, revealing how the ragtag fleet’s outward journey to Earth is also an inward exploration for the human survivors and their Cylon pursuers.
From the Jacket: What’s the point of living after your world has been destroyed? This is one of many questions raised by the Sci-Fi Channel’s critically acclaimed series Battlestar Galactica. More than just an action-packed “space opera,” each episode offers a dramatic character study of the human survivors and their Cylon pursuers as they confront existential, moral, metaphysical, theological, and political crises.This volume addresses some of the key questions to which the Colonials won’t find easy answers, even when they reach Earth: Are Cylons persons? Is Baltar’s scientific worldview superior to Six’s religious faith? Can Starbuck be free if she has a special destiny? Is it ethical to cut one’s losses and leave people behind? Is collaboration with the enemy ever the right move? Is humanity a “flawed creation”? Should we share the Cylon goal of “transhumanism”? Is it really a big deal that Starbuck’s a woman?
About the Author: Jason T. Eberl, Ph.D. is Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. His research interests focus on bioethics, metaphysics, and medieval philosophy. He has co-edited, with Kevin S. Decker, Star Wars and Philosophy (2005) and Star Trek and Philosophy (forthcoming).
Will let you know what I think, but I already thumbed through it and it looks great!!!
July 14th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
I know now. Ellan is the last cylon
.
July 14th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Just a silly little thought…
What if this is all just ends up being a giant governmental psychological experiment? Wouldn’t that be a mother frakker and a half? I mean c’mon…anything is possible…right? This whole series could be a story happening in say…Adama’s head while he’s in a drug induced dream state. The government could be doing it as a study of how much a human can take and how they adapt to constant loss and suffering…I know it sounds far fetched but again…ANYTHING is possible at this point.
July 14th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Just a little heads up. Something I’m sure all the hard core BSG fans already know. The new series Caprica is supposed to be airing on December 1st!!!!!!!!!!
July 15th, 2008 at 1:10 am
Mr Darth,,,
Good line of reasoning,,,,,,,but could we call this new kid Dr Z, or Dr Zee in 1980?
To everyoe else notice how the tide is turning, and thoughts are that this is not earth?
Love Ya all,, Mat/Nat love the comedy.Jason1
July 15th, 2008 at 2:10 am
I don’t mean to be a party pooper, but isn’t the constant theorizing and analyzing every detail from every possible perspective a little pointless at this point. I mean, I’m not one to talk because I love theorizing, and I do it all the time, but really. We’ll find out one way or the other when BSG finishes off the series. All this hype up might make the actual outcome feel somewhat anti climactic. There will be no outcome that won’t feel somewhat dissapointing. And since we won’t know for sure one way or the other until the show comes back we’re all just going around and around in circles.
Just something I noticed.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:15 am
Kristy: About Caprica… Best. News. EVER.
I cannot wait to see this! I’m still convinced Zoe’s cylon version is an adult version of 6… but that’s just me being far fetched and just having fun! lol
July 15th, 2008 at 9:25 am
ill keep mine short. the planet is i believe Earth. it is decamated due to the “harbinger of death” who on her mission ended at earth but not now ( temperal mechanics. not new happened in galactica original show) , where /when they landed but some time before when ppl were there. something happened and the “harbinger” defended herself? and smoked the planet, which couldnt had been too long before the fleet arrived (mths or yrs )because they still got trace readings of radiation and it looked as though the planet was still smoking.
as to who the final cylon is i have a few final suspects but can’t narrow it down .
1-lampkin- not in the picture (last supper) and there was that statement he made at the trial when he left the note for baltar. (i know , he hasnt been there from the beginning, unless you say he was in the original fleet not with razor or the pick up from caprica)
2-dualla- an adama, very emotive and as another fan made a good point ; in shadow for the love of some1.
in the case of the final cylons i believe that they are different to the other cylons in as much as theres only one of them and death is a surety, ressurrection is not possible so kendra shaw, billy
July 15th, 2008 at 10:04 am
How very X-files.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Hm…
Here’s something else for you.
Do you guys remember the beacon Baltar found on that Base Star? The one that infected and killed the Cylons like it would humans? It was proven to be a human beacon left in space which was infected with a virus of sorts. They thought the Fleet had left it there and Baltar knew and wouldn’t tell.
What if that beacon had been sent out by Earth as a call for help? We never figured out what it had been created for, and never investigated further into it.
If this is Earth, what are the chances the human race died of said virus? If it could even jump to Cylons, it had to be very strong!
If that were true, imagine how the people who decended on Earth will be infecting the rest of the fleet. It’ll happen so fast, and it can also infect Cylons.
Kara brought them there. She’s the harbringer of death… and she will help spread death wherever she goes. Now the fleet is infected.
And maybe because Nick and Hera are cylon/human hybrids, their immune system is stronger by default and can kill the virus?
Just a quick theory I came up with.
You never know!
July 15th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Gotta love that Green Screen Magic!!
Adam:
If what you say was to happen, with it all being a “dream”. that would be a total slap to the fan’s faces. I hated that they pulled that on Enterprise. It was all a dream/holodeck simulation!!! “Damn them all to hell”!!!
MariaSutherland:
I dont have an exact memory on it but I think Cottle said that everyone on the fleet should be immuned. since it was an old form of the virus and humanity had built up a resistance to it. Your theory could work if it mutated into a SUPER virus, coupled with all that nasty radiation.
No matter who ends up being the final one, Ill still fight for it being Gaeta. I bet he was the one who planted that thing on the console back in the Mini-series. Since they are not technically part of the other cylons, the toher seven would have no knowledge of that device. plus. we haven’t really seen that little thing anyplace else right?
btw: if any of you are going to Comic-con, Bear McCreary is having an event on that Sunday after the convention featuring some of the singers and musicians of the show. Check it out for more info http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=429#more-429
July 15th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
JJ Says:
That device was from the seven. Caprica Six was carrying one around in her briefcase in the mini series.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Oh yeah! ha. i forget.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
As far as the Final Cylon goes, personally I’m leaning towards Elosha. Why you ask:
1. Is not in the Last Supper photo
2. Was not in the fleet at the time D’Anna was unboxed
3. Is dead and so wouldn’t have been activated the way the other four were (still “in the shadows” you might say)
4. Was with the series from the beginning (first seen in the mini-series)
5. Seems to have been conveniently killed off around the time the decision was made about who the Final Cylon was going to be (apparently those discussions began around the end of the first season – though feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)
6. Has a religious backgroup
5. Appeared in Roslin’s “visions” – Roslin’s other visions have always included Cylons (Caprica Six, Athena, Hera [half toaster is still a toaster - or a coffee maker at the least], Leonen). Baltar’s the only exception here, but he doesn’t appear to be “in” the vision, it seems more like he’s drawn in from the vision he had featuring Head Six and the Opera House)
6. Is the only character to make a mysterious reappearance after being dead for a significant period of time (almost a three year gap)
7. Is about the only person who would seriously frak with Laura’s head, the way Tigh did with Adama’s. Granted there’s Billy, but I think Laura would get over that. Elosha supported Laura when Billy wouldn’t and Billy couldn’t even get the girl so I think he’d make a pretty lame Cylon.
8. All the other characters who have been theorised about (Dee, Doc Cottle, Zarek, and even my personal favourite Gaeta) are “who cares chacracters” (i.e. Who cares if they’re a Cylon? After Tigh, what’s the big deal with being a Cylon?)
Hmm? Well that’s my two cents.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:39 am
moron is watching what we typed………. and jugling bettween what we say and what was,,,,oh dear God ,,,,not a lame ending I hope ,,,,,,because of reruns and budget cuts…. you know like 30 years ago. why dont we look forward to a Buck Rodgers Mini Series (on TV) somewhere around here,,,,or maybe Shogun….
Or better yet just give up and go back to the Star Wars bump(inspiration),,,,,,,,,nevermind Star Trek,,,,,,,,,,dont look at the man behind the green curtain…..
Tired of being the old fart here,,,,ad bringing up the word ” Robote” still Jason1
July 16th, 2008 at 10:53 am
You know ‘Twelve Colonies’ is completely on target.
The secret to the final cylon’s identity is a matter of who would matter as a cylon? Let’s face it, everyone is a ’so what if that person turns out to be a cylon?’ except Adama, Lee, Roslin and perhaps Baltar.
So what if Dee, Elosha, Gaeta, etc. turn out to be one? Doesn’t impact anything.
It will be one of these four. I guarantee it. It will be an impossible let-down if there is any other outcome.
Tootie
July 16th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Now here a crazy theory which I bet will become true. What if Battlestar is really a reality show or documentary of sorts from our descent future being transmitted back to us using temporal mechanics or Taceons some Star Trek techno babble and the reason for this is to warn us of our terrible future to safe humanity from the Cylon!! It could be true.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Totally!!
Tune in next week for Who wants to Marry a Centurion. Is it love at first byte?!? And on the next Caprican Idol, Gaeta will be dueling it out with Baltar for top slot!. Its a neck-to-neck epic battle!!. And dont forget everyone’s favorite, The Bachelorrette; where Sharon is two episodes away from making her decsion between Tyrol, Helo, and Cavil. Cavil’s got the power, Tyrol’s got the “mechanic’s touch”, and Helo’s got the kid at home. WHO WILL SHE CHOOSE!!!
Your right. Its a terrible future with all these Reality TV shows infecting our lives. Thankfully we will not make the same mistakes!
July 16th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Indeed it must be stopped, ah but your forgetting our old favourite “Galactica Next Fifth Cylon” who will it be Helo, Geata, Roslin
Billy or the big man himself Adama!!
July 16th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Who can forget these catch phrases:
“This Hub’s for you”
“Ring around the Foster”
“Strong enough for her, but made for the Old Man!”
“Enjoy Chamalla”
“Cally, generation next”
“Six is for kids”
“Built Tom, Built tough”
“I liked the Raider so much, I bought the entire line!”
“Frak, Tyrol, and Saul” (Rice Krispies) (OK, bad one)
I could go on like this for a while, but I’m a bit Tigh’ed up at the moment!!!!!
July 16th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Bacchus – That was so punny…uh I mean funny Hahaha!
July 17th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Damn!! I just read the Emmy Nomination list for 2008. Its full BS!!! BSG has 5 nominations. Here:
Outstanding Cinematography For A One Hour Series – Razor
Outstanding Single-camera Picture Editing For A Drama Series – Battlestar Galactica • He That Believeth In Me
Outstanding Sound Mixing For A Comedy Or Drama Series (one-hour) – Razor
Outstanding Special Class – Short-format Live-action Entertainment Programs – Razor Featurette #4
Outstanding Special Visual Effects For A Series – Battlestar Galactica • He That Believeth In Me
Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series – Battlestar Galactica • Six Of One
While I hope they get these, its BS that they didn’t get more. I mean come on not even for Music Composition. I do agree that “LOST”’s episode “The Constant” had a terrific song that deserved nomination, but I think it first came out 2 seasons ago. Revelations end song!!! Callys theme!!! Gaeta’s Lament!!! Resurrection Hub Battle song!!!
wtf Emmys!!!
July 17th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Danm right JJ lets cross everything we can!!
Also remember these classic films:
Who framed Gauis Baltar
There something about Sharon
Saving Pravite Apollo
Lock Stock & two Smoking Vipers
The Galactica Redemption
12 Angry Cylons
I really have 2 much time on my hands
July 18th, 2008 at 1:48 am
Feels like we havnt had a BSG Cast since the Tribes were back on Kobol
We miss our BSGcast! Hope you are doing well Matt and Nat. Must be real busy with the Mississauga Film Festival.
Good luck with all that
July 18th, 2008 at 8:53 am
I think that your earlier theory about Baltar being the fifth Cylon still stands up. There will be a twist but the prophecy of the Hybrid
only fits Baltar and no one has been argue a against it when when I have challenged them to.
I don’t agree that this is Earth though. The series finale will not have them settling here.
I can tell you though that the series finale has a lot of extras that will have to wear a bathing suit. Typically when this is the case it is because they are in some kind of life suspension chamber. The human race has either a population on the final planet that is in crypgenic suspension which will be woken up to repopulate or they are being grown for the same purpose.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Hahaha… ah, we miss the BSGcasts too… we’ve been trying to keep busy online with http://www.YourGeekNews.com but throwing the Mississauga Independent Film Festival last week took more time and effort than we expected… you can check the pictures out on Flickr under the user “miffpics” and on facebook under my or Nat’s profiles. We’re planning on getting some new Reviews out for Wanted and Dark Knight.
On the BSG topic, I’ve also got a cool interview with Richard Hatch that I’ll be posting soon!
~Matt
July 18th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
SO i really think that Helo is the fifth cylon. There it is. Right to the face. I mean, he seems to be the only one that just kinda lingering around, you know. Everyone else has the speculations and worries, but Helo doesn’t ever seem to wonder, “am i a cylon?” Baltar has ALWAYS wondered, and we were teased with Roslin. But never Helo. He’s so chill! With skin jobs running around, you’d expect everyone to start scraping at their skin looking for a metal body underneath, you know? But not Helo. Is that a sign? Maybe Helo wishes he was a cylon so that it won’t be as controversial for he and Athena to be together. I know i do.
But one HAS to admit that him being a cylon would make the show even cooler though, cuz then that would mean that HERA is a full cylon. the first cylon to be BORN rather than produced like a vegetable. (matrix, anyone?). I was also thinking…if anyone ELSE is outed as a cylon…would it be surprising? or necessary? I don’t want the last cylon to be some red shirt (doubtful). But if its a minor character who dissapoeared like DUALLA, that just wouldn’t FEEL right. If it was Gaeta (as much as i LOOOOVE him) it still wouldn’t feel right. So hopefully Helo is the cylon and he ans Athena can have a happy cylon family life.
July 20th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
So why were the 7 cylopns forbidden to locate the final five ?
Why is Baltar and Laura able to share projection like full blooded cylons?
I think the answers to these questions was revealed in……..
Argggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
July 20th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Sorry, I just spoke with one of the Cavil’s and I was wrong in discussing these things.
So Cavil, does this mean I am not going to be boxed now?
July 21st, 2008 at 11:42 pm
In “Valley of Darkness” the music playing on the stereo was written by Kara’s father. That same song can be heard every time we see the hybrid on the basestar (Metamorphosis, by Philip Glass). RDM said he left clues as to who the final Cylon was. To me, music seems to be the common thread between the final five (All Along the Watchtower, for example). Since we know that Kara’s father was a musician, and that Kara has a “special destiny” (ordinary Joes don’t have special destiny), there is a real possibility that he is the final one. On the “Last Supper” photo, there are two glasses of water on the table and when you superimpose the two, Kara winds up being right in front of the grail, the spot reserved for the final Cylon. Now you may all do as I did: lose a hell of a lot of sleep over this.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:44 pm
In “Valley of Darkness” the music playing on the stereo, in Kara’s appartment in Delphi where she goes to get some stuff with Helo…
July 22nd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Caprica Trailer is up on Scifi at http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=14&id=57977
From the trailer looks like there might be some version of a skinjob which seems odd. I would think the basic toster model would come first then the skinjob versions later. If not, why are BSG characters surprised to find out cylons look like people? And no toaster model in the preview – which would have been great to tie both series together better. Well they’re going to have to appear sometime in the series.
July 22nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm
The end of the Caprica trailer says, “The end of humanity…has a beginning.”
I guess we now know how BSG will end!
July 24th, 2008 at 9:48 am
@ SirKenneth: We already knew BSG would lead to the end of humanity. The Razor sequence with the old hybrid as well as the time when Starbuck was with the Hybrid on the rebel basestar. This just confirms something that has been said all along.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Just wondering if anyone has seen the footage of the wrap up party on youtube. Its got some interesting on site locations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVr9syJsQ8
July 25th, 2008 at 8:46 am
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/07/15/frakkin_cylon_toaster/
you know you WAAAAAAAAAAAAANT it!
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
@Phineas
Why do you think I’m taking the Cylons too far back? “It has happened before and will happen again.” Which means we are currently in no less than the second time around the block. I only need to go back the one cycle for my theory to be sound. Earth: Humans created sentient machines as an underclass, they rebelled, evolved into skinjobs, came back to destroy man. Some sided with humans (presumably 5 models), the rest didn’t. Those that did integrated into the human gene pool. Those that didn’t were destroyed or found a new home elsewhere.
Thousands of years later humans created cylons, a sentient machine underclass. They rebelled, evolved into skinjobs, and came back to destroy man.
Here’s where I think the two cycles may tie together: Machines from cycle 1 integrate with machines from cycle 2. They are now known as “The Programmers.” Which is why knowledge of the FF is passed from one cycle to the next.
To me, this could be at least the 3rd cycle (or “The Programmers” have outstanding forethought). Why? Because “The Programmers” designed the skinjobs to “not think about” the FF and made it forbidden knowledge. The pursuit of the FF is essentially what has prevented the cycle from breaking on several occassions. Humanity could have been wiped out if not for this pursuit. “The Programmers” wanted Cylons to coldly obliterate humanity, and they nearly did.
Perhaps the defeated cylons will meet up with the next human created sentient machine and integrate with them. It isn’t difficult to see how they would want to wipe the Cylon rebels from their memory and forbid the knowledge of their existence. Hate to imagine #1 at the helm of that upgrade.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
JJ, I agree. That is bull. Revelations should have WON the emmy for outstanding music for a drama series, not just have been nominated. I’ve never heard a soundtrack for a FRAKING TV SHOW that has moved me like that did. And have you ever heared anything as frakin tense and amazing as the choir shouting a war chant in 7/8 with percussion? I think not.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:42 am
the last cylon is the baby of saul and six it satated neither the fleet nor the cylons have it
September 4th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Now that the series is coming to an end I find this site! Argh! It reminds me of the speculations we used to do with the series Twin Peaks. (I know. I’m dating myself.)
I respectully suggest that the 5th Cylon is Lee Adama and this is why…
Lee was about to be wasted by a Raider. He was out of ammo and was totally outflown. The Raider was at point blank range. It would have been a clean kill. Then the Raider scanned him and broke off the attack. Lee was shaken to the core. When Lee returned to the Galactica, he turned in his wings and went into politics.
The only reason for the Raider to break of the attack was that it detected that Lee was a Cylon.
If you assume that the Fleet refers to the Galactica and the military, you could say that Lee was not in the fleet. Lee was part of the civilian government.
++++
What if someone from the Galactica stumbled upon the original humans the 12 are based upon. The Human 12 could be in a high state of decay or so absorbed by the baseship that they could never be set free without killing them. That may even be how the Final Cylon is revealed – through an accidental discovery like this.
A discovery like this would be more than enough for the Galactica and Baseship to get into a point blank slugfest – destroying both.
Kara and Helo (and/or a few other couples) could be on the surface of Earth at the time. Kara’s special destiny is to be the next Eve in the rebuilding of humanity.
September 6th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
It was actually Anders that the cylon raider scanned and then broke off the attack, no Lee.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Could Kara be a clone produced by the Cylons to mislead the fleet? Remember the surgery Kara had back at Caprica when she had the Arrow of Athena?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Must be old age creeping up on me. Thank you for the correction, Kaybird.
October 16th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
THOSE MANIACS! THEY BLEW IT UP! DAMN THEM! G** DAMN THEM ALL TO HELL!!!!!!
December 12th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
What if we are looking at Earth after some natural disaster like an asteroid impact? If a rock was heading our way, I could easily imagine using our combine nuclear arsenals to try and deflect the asteroid. If it was an iron asteroid or was too big, nothing would happen. On impact, the radioactive debris from the nukes trying to deflect the asteroid could scattered around the world.
Another possibility is that Yellowstone or some other supervolcano erupted. The radionuclei could have come from within the Earth and shot into the atmosphere during the eruption.
Both types of events could easily lead to the “nuclear winter” depicted. Both events could lead to the moderate radionuclei count detected by the landing party.
Given the state of disrepair, the city was probably abandoned within 200 years of the fleet entering orbit. There was no showing of the ISS, so it probably had fallen out of orbit.
I know that a natural event is not as “sexy” as a war, but could again explain the natural balance and rebirth of humanity/cylons.
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