CapriCast 1.04 – Gravedancing
The build up to Daniel’s appearance on Sarno finally comes to a head as the Adama’s close in on Amanda… some heavy stuff goes down in this episode, and with Graystone industries swearing off the profit of their consumer electronics division, it looks like selling some Cylons to the military just got a whole lot more urgent.
~
February 20th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Without giving away the ending too much, the scene between Sam and Joseph was fantastic.
Joseph: Was that sarcastic?
Sam: What do you think?
Way to go Sam.
February 20th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
That episode was awesome! It’s definitely getting better. I really love how we’re learning more and more about Tauran culture. Taurans get tattooed for everything from significant achievements to mistakes not just being in a gang (But that also.) If the Taurans tend to be a bit more on the rough, harsher side of things it would give a lot more explanation to Admiral Cains character as she was Tauran. And wow, Joseph’s and Sam’s mom… Ouch! Watch out! She’s frakkin scary, I would not want to piss off that woman.
Now I don’t know if all of this stuff was mentioned in the first episode (given that i missed it
) But it seems very shocking to me that people, even teenagers could witness things like ritual sacrifice in the holoband rooms. That seems a little scary. But other than the potential for horrific things that could go on in there I think the holoband is awesome and definitely creates a whole new world. It never even occurred to me at first that it could be the origins of the cylon projection abilities. But it makes sense. Especially if Zoe can hook it into her centurion body, why wouldn’t she be able to access it at will. Eventually over time it would just become part of who she is and who the Cylons are.
And to find out that they made drugs legal to take out the profit motive for drug running is also something new. Very enlightened as well, and it explains Sister Clarice’s night in the opium den.
I loved the scene at the end where Sam is driving Amanda home and he starts to tell her a little about himself. Then she cries cause she knows he’s going to kill her… at least that’s what the scene was trying to make us believe. But it was still good.
And the way Sam messed with Joseph was intense. I was saying the same thing Joseph was “Are you being sarcastic?…. I can’t tell” haha
Not a big fan of the dancing Robot scene but I did love how loving they make group marriages look. Very different from the typical one man and 10 women who all seem to serve him, image of group marriages we’ve seen in real life.
February 20th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
This episode was really good, it went by so fast and I was on the ride the entire time.
February 21st, 2010 at 6:13 am
There’s one thing that’s bothered me about the timeline… Maybe I just don’t have the right dates.
BSG took place 40 years after the first cylon war… and Caprica took place 40 years BEFORE the first cylon war. That would make Admiral Adama over 80 years old when BSG started. Damn he looks young for 90 something.
It would make sense if it was only 5 – 10 years before the first cylon war. Then shortly after it starts Admiral Cain’s sister is taken. Then the final 5 show up and help end the war.
Can anyone clear up this time line for me… my nerdocity is on overload LOL
February 21st, 2010 at 6:13 am
Hi guys, this is my first capricast post, I didn’t know if I would like the show after seeing the DVD pilot, but they have done a pretty good job so far. I Thought this episode was good, it had it’s strong points and week points. I would like to point out some, so for everyone here who hasn’t seen this episode spoilers ahoy!
So far what I like, I like the Graystone story about their dealing with Zoey’s death. I at first did not like Amanda but she is seeming to grow on me, saving her husband on the talkshow was a classy thing to do, even though she disagreed with him going on it in the first place and I am glad that Sam ended up not killing her.
I am not a fan of little eddie adamas life of crime, I think it is not realistic that he has such values as the commander of BSG, but seems so lost as a little boy, I guess he has a lot of shaping up to be when he eventually joins the Colonial Defense Force.
I do however like Sam, He seems to be the go to guy and the enforcer, but he also has heart, even when getting ready to kill someone. Eddies Grandma however scares me to the bone, she is one spooky woman. Obviously prejudice has blinded her to be filled with hatred. But her keep your enemies close speech was fantastic.
I actually liked the Zoey robot dancing, it reminds us of the humanity in the robot, even though it is AI, she enjoyed dancing with the tech who treats her as a person and not a thing. (plus the little nod from Ron Moore to us in the fact that the second song the tech plays before finding the song he dances too is the theme from the 70’s Battlestar Galactica, it made me smile.)
Overall, I am finding new life in this Caprica, though sometimes the family drama stuff gets a little two brady bunch on speed for me and also I am not a fan of the Big Love polygamist marriage, but that is also due to the fact, I do not like the couselor lady in it either.
For Kirsty, first, go rent the pilot dvd and catch up, you will love it now that it makes for sense. But to answer your question, It is said in the pilot, the v-club is a place where the teens of caprica have hacked into the holoband (Caprica’s Internet) and created this club where there are no rules, Kids join the sex rooms and get bored with them, so they move on to the bigger things like killing your friends with knives and guns, and yes ends up with a lottery for human sacrifice, so the v-club is most definately not approved by the FCC or the Motion Pictire Association of America.
So guys, a big hello from little old me. I miss BSG cast, because I miss BSG. Caprica is a good show, but it is not my beloved battlestar Galactica( either of them).
Forever rolling the hard six,
Timothy Lovejoy
February 21st, 2010 at 8:01 am
Two things to say. The dancing scene was very cheesy, and Joseph’s mother is badass!
February 21st, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Kirsty, regarding the timeline:
About midway through Reins of a Waterfall during the year-ago GDD interview with Benjamin Stark(e), we see the date
as Aprilus 9th YR41. Assuming that YR41 means year 41, that would make the “present” in the beginning of the
Caprica series to be YR42. Caprica is supposed to take place 58 years before the fall, which now gets a date of
approx. YR100. The Cylon war had been ended for 40 years at the time of the fall, which puts the end of the
Cylon war at YR60. I’ve seen somewhere that the Cylon war lasted 12-13 years which puts its beginning about
YR47, just five years in present day Caprica’s future (now at YR42). Very convenient for a typical 5-year series,
to end just as the war begins. Since Brown-eyed Willy seems to have been born around YR31 or YR32, that would
make him about 68 or so at the beginning of the BSG series, and about 16 when the Cylon war begins. It would be
a great ending to this series to see how brown-eyed Willy becomes blue-eyed William (remember “Adama is a Cylon”).
Or maybe the whole brown-eyed vs blue-eyed was just a massive continuity screw-up by Caprica casting.
February 21st, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Thanks Vegandirteater…. although I think I’m actually more confused. Especially since during Razor it shows Adama as a man in his mid to late 20’s piloting the viper before he lands on the cylon planet.
And I know for sure that Adama isn’t a cylon… I think he’s always been brown eyed.
February 21st, 2010 at 4:55 pm
I took another look at Razor and when the Cylon ship leaves, Adama receives a call on his hand-held radio,
declaring that the “The War is Over”. This would be at YR60, when young Bill is 28 or 29. Which is about what
Nico Cortez (the actor) appears to be in 2007. And Nico Cortez is brown-eyed. Maybe the Admiral just wore
blue contacts for four years.
Looking forward to “There is another sky”. It looks like Tamara’s inner mobster comes to the surface. Here’s
Emily Dickenson’s poem by the same name, although one thing I can be sure about is that Emily wasn’t
writing about Cylon projection:
There is another sky,
Ever serene and fair,
And there is another sunshine,
Though it be darkness there;
Never mind faded forests, Austin,
Never mind silent fields—
Here is a little forest,
Whose leaf is ever green;
Here is a brighter garden,
Where not a frost has been;
In its unfading flowers
I hear the bright bee hum:
Prithee, my brother,
Into my garden come!
February 21st, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Hey all!
Just watched the episode. I really enjoy the Sam and Joseph moments. Agreed, momma Adama is pretty scary. “You think you only get things from friends; you get even better things from enemies, cause they are scared of you”. Not really too interested in the graystone storyline right now, except for Zoe of course. I may be paranoid, but I think that “Tanith” is part of the STO.
@VeganDirtEater, @Kirsty – remember back in the “Razorettes” when Husker said that he “was still in school, never thought he’d get out in time to get shot at”. The razorette said day 4571 of the war, which is about 13 years (if going by 365 earth days) If he is 13 now, then he was 26 in the Razorette; then add 40 years until BSG time, which makes him 66. Guess the question would be exactly when he joined the colonial fleet and how long it takes him to train. just have to wait and see.
February 21st, 2010 at 5:04 pm
Forgot to add, in case you all haven’t read it yet: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/show-patrol/2010/02/exclusive-caprica-producer-jane-espenson-explains-sam-adamas-tattoos.html
Explanation of Sam’s tattoos.
February 21st, 2010 at 5:16 pm
Caprica is getting good! Although I think back to last week, when we were talking about strong female characters…well, we found our strong female character. Willie Adama’s Grandma!!! (Who’s name I don’t know, but I think it might be Ruth…or something like that.)
Although, I don’t think her last name is Adama…I mean, aren’t Joe and Sam orphans? I think she’s Joe’s wife’s (Shannon was her name, wasn’t it?) mother. She actually scared me a little bit. But I loved that scene when she’s telling Willie to “Keep your enemies close.” Remind me to never get on her bad side.
I’m loving all of the Adama family. Who knew Will Adama has so many mob connections? It’s great, though. I love seeing this other side to their family.
And then, we have Tamara in the next episode…trapped in the V-Club. I have a strong feeling the the soldiers of the one are going to find her, and realize what she is, and somehow convince her to become a weapon for them. It wouldn’t be that hard. Shes confused, she had been trapped in a dark room with no heart beat for god knows how long, and now that she’s out, she’s in the V club. Anything that STO offers her would sound pretty good at that point.
And also, on the whole “William Adama has blue/brown eyes” conversation. I remember reading somewhere that Eddie Olmos used color contacts to make his eyes blue; so they matched Jamie Bamber’s eyes; and Jamie Bamber dyed his hair darker to match Eddie Olmos’s. Of course, there’s always the possibility that I am horribly mistaken, and I now look like a total idiot for posting that.
Truthfully, I don’t think we should make a big deal about it. Of course there are going to be some mistakes appearance wise. I also seem to recall that Romo Lampkin told Lee he looks like Joseph Adama.
On a completely different note, how awesome would it be if we got a cameo from Laura Roslin. Like, young Will and young Laura meet at a park somewhere, they talk a little bit, then we here “Laura! We need to go!” and young Laura runs off to her mom. If they did something like that, my day would be made.
February 22nd, 2010 at 2:26 am
To VeganDirtEater- Thank you for clarifying the timeline for those who didn’t understand it. People don’t tend to register the fact that part of the 50-something years in the Caprica’s timeline includes the 40 year gap between the end of the Cylon War and the beginning of the events in the “Battlestar Galactica” mini-series.
Now, onto some responses.
People may have disliked the Zoey-AI/Assistant dancing scene, but I happen to like it. If you look at it in the context of what’s going on, this is probably the first moment since Zoey was downloaded into the U-87 that she had a moment of fun and connection with someone. Yes, the assistant didn’t know, but I can tell that she was a bit happy for the dance. If you also think about it, Zoey-AI can’t dance normally because she’s stuck in the body of the U-87 and is stuck in the standing position all day. Plus, I’m getting a bit of a feeling that there may be more to the Zoey-AI and Assistant “relationship” (I use this term loosely) and we’re seeing the start of it.
Now, for the group marriage scene… Many people liked this, but I found it odd. Honestly, I didn’t really think that it was really a group marriage like the Mormons because of what Clarice says Lacy, “I’m not married to all of them, some of them are my friends.”, indicating more of a “spiritual” marriage than a real one. So, seeing Clarice with not only her husband, but one of the women she pointed out as a “friend” seems rather out of place to me.
The scene between Amanda Graystone and Sam. Am I the only one who feels that Sam actually connected with her? I mean, before he mentioned that he lost people on the tram. I got a feeling that Sam actually made a connection with her and was sort of liking her, despite what he was suppose to do to her if Joseph didn’t call it off. And when it came to later when Sam was messing with Joseph, I knew he was lying about killing Amanda. And I’ll explain why: lack of evidence. You see, when it comes to “Battlestar Galactica”, unless you see it, it didn’t happen. For example: just because we no longer saw Boxey in the show after Season 1 doesn’t mean he wasn’t alive and somewhere in the fleet. Would we have believed Jammer’s death in Season 3’s “Collaberators” if Tigh and company had just mentioned it? No. We didn’t see Sam do what he described. And we did not get a shot of his hands as he was washing them (because if he did do it, there would have been a shot of it to emphasize that it was done. Any filmmaker would tell you that).
Now, a lot of people keep talking about the blue eye/brown eye thing. Knighthawkdc and I actually have a possible suggestion behind why young Bill Adama has brown eyes and why old man Adama has blue eyes in the context of the show. We think that maybe, sometime during this show and before the “Razor” flashbacks (which shows a young man Bill Adama with Blue eyes), there may have been an accident that little Billy gets into which causes damages to his eyes and his face, which would account for the barely there pits when he’s a young man and the deep pits of his facial complex when he’s an old man (yes, I know in real life, it’s a genetic thing that’s in relation to James Edward Olmos, but it would make sense in relation to the story. Like how Brad Pitt got a broken arm in real life and how it was written into the movie “Seven”). It could be possible that young Billy got into some sort of accident that required his eyes to be replaced or that the damaged resulted in the changing of the eye color. Of course, it’s just a theory, could very well be wrong.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:55 am
re: Adama’s eyes. Perhaps the producers simply weren’t counting on people looking THAT closely. lol. Enjoying the show anyway.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:26 am
jwkrock- I think they would know we fans would notice something like that, especially since there were a lot of close-ups on Edward James Olmos that included clear shots of his eyes. They even had the actor who played young Bill Adama in the “Razor” flashbacks wearing them. And any production’s continuity person/script person would have noticed those details.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:39 am
CB2001: That theory about Bill Adama’s eyes was pretty much the same one I came up with as well. I hate to think that the producers would have forgotten something so crucial when it was so important in BSG that they had Olmos wear contacts and Jamie Bamber dye his hair. If the actor playing young Adama has allergies and cannot wear contacts for some reason, they can always be edited electronically as well. So there HAS to be something about that.
I also read elsewhere that perhaps we’re mislead to believe that THIS is Admiral Adama, and instead Jo Adama will have another son at some point in the series who he would call William as well – sounds far fetched, but you never know. It may screw up with continuity though.
I also feel a little off when it comes to, believe it or not, paper and books. Remember how corners were ALWAYS cut in BSG? As small a detail as it may be, it’s also one of those little somethings that made the BSG Universe what it was. Why aren’t they cut now? o_O What’s up with that? Could that also be explained later on?
I did enjoy the dancing scene with Zoe. I get the feeling that she’s going to form a sort of connection if she hasn’t already, with the technician. Could be the first sign of Cylon love? Who knows.
Also, from next week’s previews… Am I the only one who feels like Tamara may in fact be the turning point for the Cylons later in the show and not Zoe? Zoe is tended to and surrounded by people at all times, and can also get in contact with people she trusts. While she’s shown a few signs of aggressivity, it seems more like early confusion on her part. She seems to be settling down. Tamara, on the other hand, is not only confused, but I felt, from the previews, that she becomes frustrated fast. She has no “real” interaction with humans, is trapped in the V-Club (where you see all the ugliness of the world on display), and has no access to anyone she knows because most people think of her as deleted, while Zoe left her in the V-Club unnatended. In the previews she seems to grow more mature and aggressive. It seems to me that she could very well become the turning point we didn’t see coming for the upcoming war. We all think Zoe’s the one who’s going to lead the Cylons into war eventually, or at least help it along somehow… But I think we’ve been mislead. I’ll have to watch next episode of course, but I’m really starting to think Tamara will be the curve ball.
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:04 pm
I think jwkrock may be on the right track with the adamas eyes. At the beginning of BSG they may simply have not thought about the color of his eyes. Even I didn’t notice it until it was mentioned here. It may be the same case with the directors. The BSGverse is pretty detailed but even directors and writers make mistakes. At the end of the day I still belive that whatever the reason, William Adama is still not a cylon. Whatver the reason for his eye change.
@cb2001 I totally agree that Sam seemed to connect with Amanda on a certain level. He seemed to have some compassion for her which started out as intimidation but as she talked he could see they shared a similar pain. If he had actally intended on killing her he probably wouldn’t have engaged in such deep conversation with her or felt that compassion. Gotta love a killer with a heart.
February 22nd, 2010 at 3:05 pm
I’m glad there’s a lot of conversation about the details.
How about this for a detail I noticed: Clarice’s cell phone ringtone in this episode sounds similar to the “strings” portion of the RIS BSG’s “opening/’They Have a Plan’” theme.
February 22nd, 2010 at 3:11 pm
And I just noticed this while rewatching last week’s episode: In the opening credits, when you pay attention to the background of the Adama portion of the opening credits, you can spot a statue of Sagittarius twice in the background, aiming up in the air in a similar manner as we saw the Sagittarius statue in the Tomb of Athena in Season 2’s “Home, Part 2″
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:36 pm
@CB – I have to agree about the dance scene. Even with the restricted movement of the U-87, it was the first time Zoe could be herself – a teen who loves to dance. I wonder if Zoe will tell the assistant that she is trapped in the U-87? Will the assistant be the one that removes any sort of inhibition block that keeps Zoe from running amok?
Sam and Amanda definitely connected. Maybe that was the final thing that saved her.
Grandma Adama is wonderfully scary! Not someone I want to get on the bad side of!
Did anyone else hear the Colonial anthem in the background?
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Time to lay the show bare…
Okay, the shadow figure in the confessional talking to the teacher/preistess is searching for immortality within the “machine”, whether it be v-net or cylon body. Interestingly, this shadow figure may actually be the alien lifeforms that the original battlestar called cylons. They could be a defeated race, all but extinct using these lost human souls (deception by religion) to craft their continuation and human ruin. Soon we will find out that the whole monotheism of the STO is a trick by the aliens to control mankind. Or could it be that the shadows are the Lords of Kobol who must find a new host for their godness. And lastly, the shadow figure is Skynet (Terminators rule!!!!)
We also learned that all centurions are the avatarred souls of females. If its one thing that sci-fi has taught us, its that the female is the more doscile of the “species”.
If you are courious how Bill Adama ends up in the military, a Taurin blood debt is incurred be Sam. So Adama must be given to a rival Taurin clan as repayment. The rival clan is the Spartan clan that acted as the warrior class on Tauris. They make Bill go to the academy and become a soldier. The alluded to Taurin rebellion was settled only after the Spartan clan agreed to be come part of what we now know as the “colonial” warriors instead of the colony specific military. We will learn that each colony rebelled against Caprican rule and was “folded” into Caprican control by integrating its warrior class into the colonial warrior service.
As a side note, the sagiterions didn’t surrender in their rebellion. Instead they did a “white buffalo” type dance expecting the Capricans to vanish. Capricans didnt vanish and the sagitarions became the supstitious colony.
P.S. If you look carefully at the uncut DVD pilot for Caprica, you will see Starbuck and the Medallion in the v-net scenes. I could cause even more havoc by telling you that she is shirtless but lets see if you find her first.
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:20 pm
OK this is completely off topic and has nothing really to do with Caprica or BSG. It’s a clip of James Callis aka baltar trying to get all the cast members of BSG to wish Bear McCreary good luck on his concert. It’s hilarious. James Callis is so funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWWS-77tDHc&feature=related
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Hey all!!
Speaking of Bear McCreary….check out http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=3732 for his entry on the soundtrack for “The Plan/Razor”. It has a few samples of the songs in case you didn’t remember specific scenes. Apparently it comes out today!!! Totally ordering mine right now.
@Kirsty – I loved everyone’s responses, especially EJO and Michael Hogan. “We don’t need frakin’ music” I bought 4.0 dvds back last year just so I can watch the documentary. lol.
February 23rd, 2010 at 8:51 pm
After watching the board-meeting sneak peak for “Another Sky”, I’d like to make some observations which I’ve been wanting to express since the beginning of the series.
In order to generate interest in a show, movie or play, at least some of the characters must be capable of generating sympathetic and empathetic feelings among the audience. Gravedancing partially rehabilitated Sam and Joseph. But this Friday, in Another Sky, the audience is made painfully aware of the extent of Daniel’s villainy. Making too many of the main characters too despicable is a dangerous move. Having the main characters be mostly villains becomes tedious and boring very quickly. At least Clarice Willow’s villainy is eclipsed by her creepiness.
Much has been said about Amanda’s confession at the end of Rebirth, but what about the crowd’s reaction? Amanda never said anything about supporting her daughter’s assumed action, but rather talked about the disconnection she felt had existed which, judging from the V-club popularity, seems to be rather common. When Amanda tearfully proclaims “My daughter was a terrorist, Sorry”, the crowd erupts in violent anger.
If this kind of anger and non-empathy is widespread among Caprica and the other Colonies, then The Fall may be subconsciously welcomed by Caprica viewers as something the Colonies well deserve. Some people go to a NASCAR race expecting to see a really terrible wreck. I would rather see really terrible wrecks averted by expert drivers. I hope that Caprica isn’t a death-march straight into hell, but something more interesting. I hope that at least some of Graystone Industries board members object to Daniel’s proposal on ethical and moral grounds. Note that the Dred Scott decision had two dissenters out of nine.
Which brings us back to the board meeting. It looks like Philomon will have some major repair work to do on the U-87, further developing his relationship with Zoe (see Florence Nightingale Effect). When two civilizations conflict, sympathetic individuals will cross racial or cultural lines. Will Philomon go Cylon?
February 24th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
VeganDirtEater: I don’t think Daniel really is a “villain”. Some of us may see it this way because we KNOW how things will end. We KNOW the Cylons will rebel, and we KNOW it will bring forth the destruction of the Colonies.
I see in Daniel someone who strives to move forward and bring his company to the top all the while dealing with his daughter’s loss. Daniel’s speech around the table in the sneak peak was chilling because we know what the outcome will be, but also because we know Zoe’s in there. We feel empathy for her because she does not see herself as a big hulk of metal, but still as a human being. What we saw, when she ripped her arm off, was the machine ripping it off, but we know she sees herself ripping her “human” arm off, and because of that, we feel bad for her. This gives us a different view of Daniel because of what we know.
Daniel believes V-Zoe was lost when he tried to integrate her with the Cylons – although we all saw he thinks she COULD be in there, but can’t find her. If she really came out and told him who she is, I doubt he would have gone to the lenght he has at the meeting. In fact, he probably would have kept the Cylon in his basement, trying to keep her away from view. In a sense, it’s her own fault she’s in this situation.
I have no doubt that with time, some of Daniel’s colleagues will stand up to Daniel. I see the young man tending to the Cylon probably trying to stop Daniel from managing mass production of slaves, and I think he sees a bigger picture then the others. There’s a definite connection there and I think it will grow more important with time.
I also have absolutely no doubt Daniel will eventually lose himself in his invention, and I strongly believe he’ll grow mad with time, if not before the war, during the war. But we’ll see, of course.
February 25th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I have been loyally watching Caprica AND CapriCast and have been quietly enjoying both. There are many elements of the series that I really like and find quite new and entertaining, though I’m not *YET* convinced that it will reach the high expectations placed upon it. Even so, I look forward to new episodes and missed it during the “Olympic hiatus”. As an aside, I really love the bits of Tauron culture we are seeing (Grandma Ruth is a badass). I hope we get glimpses into other Colonies as the series continues (Gemenon seems to be next).
@Kristy, your question – and the subsequent commentary – regarding the timeline strikes a chord with my own personal sense of continuity. I like the pieces of a story to fit together organically – and correctly. For an intelligent fan base, suspension of disbelief is largely dependent upon getting the details right. When writers run roughshod over accepted canon, it undermines the “believability” (can you use that word to describe fictional events) – and compromises the entertainment value of the show (to a degree). Anyway…
To belatedly answer your timeline question, we learned that William Adama was 11 years old during the Caprica pilot which took place 58 years before the Fall. Consequently, he was 69 years old (11 + 58 = 69) when the Twelve Colonies of Kobol were destroyed by the Cylons. Adding the 5 years spanned during the BSG series (4 seasons + “one year later”); William Adama was 74 years old (69 + 5 = 74) when the Colonial Fleet finally arrived at “our” Earth in the distant past (approximately 100,000 years ago) at the conclusion of the BSG series. This essentially agrees with VeganDirtEater’s timeline of events (thank you).
A quick note on the Razor flashback scenes. The events depicted on screen were of Operation Raptor Talon – the last major fleet action of the war. We have established that William “Husker” Adama was 69 years old at the time of the destruction of the Twelve Colonies, which was preceded by 40 years of peace following the signing of the Cimtar Peace Accord that ended the First Cylon War – by establishing an armistice and exiling the Cylons into space “beyond the red line”. That means “Husker” would have been 29 years old at the end of the conflict (69 – 40 = 29) when he flew his first combat missions as part of Operation Raptor Talon. Continuing backward in time, we know that the First Cylon War lasted for approximately 12 years (4,571 days according to Razor) which would have made William Adama 17 years old when the Cylon War started (29 – 12 = 17). By my reckoning, that’s about as close as you can get given the know facts +/- a year or so.
Canon and continuity aside, at the end of the day, SyFy is producing Caprica to make a profit and if the ratings on Caprica slip, I’d expect another fast forward in the timeline; possibly a “six years later” jump that will place us right at the beginning of the First Cylon War. It would be plot shift similar to what DS9 successfully did with the introduction of the Dominion and Defiant, or Voyager and the Borg and Seven of Nine or – not as successfully – Enterprise and the Xindi attack on Earth (I’d go so far as to wager that Enterprise might have avoided cancellation if they opted instead to jump into the Earth-Romulan War in place of the Xindi storyline). Sorry, my Trekker roots are showing again.
My only reservation is the fact that the CG heavy space setting of the First Cylon War would largely displace our “Caprica-bound” cast and exponentially increase production costs – which ultimately doomed the original BSG series to a single season in 1978 (it’s that silly profitability thing). However, if Caprica enjoys a long, profitable run (and I hope it does), it will conclude naturally at the beginning of the First Cylon War – a perfect starting point for the next series in the BSG franchise.
The good news is that there are many avenues to explore in Caprica and the series is just getting started. In the end, I trust that we will not be disappointed by RDM and the time we invest in Caprica will be enjoyably spent. Of course, I’m still nostalgic about Galactica…the ship never let us down. She was a Grand Old Lady.
February 25th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Hey Guys,
Great cast as always, Missed you!
I’m enjoying the show a lot, much more than I had expected to. I’ve read a good portion of the posts and some have hit on theories I’ve had.
1. Fayth – I’m definitely on board with the Lacey as the Hybrid theory. I’d thought that since the second episode.
2. Tamara – as a cylon meaning she fought her brother the entire way to Earth 2.0 with believable and unbelievable near misses. Perhaps that is why his fleet made it to Earth and Adm. Cain had to be eliminated because she threatened her brother. She might have out manipulated the skin-jobs’ manipulation (i.e. The Plan)
3. Can’t wait to see who first uttered ‘Sometimes you got to roll the hard six’ within ear shot of Will Adama for the first time
and in its original context.
4. Yes, Grandma scares the living crap out of me. Great and interesting character. Makes me wonder if her maiden is Thrace?
5. Clarice – I wonder if the man, behind the curtain so to speak, is Count IIbis leader of the STO?
6. Yes love the fact that they’re not in your face with the partner preferences of the characters. Wish it was more like that here.
Well that’s my two cubits for what they’re worth. Can’t wait to see more about Tamara…
February 25th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
@zakray, great speculation! I loved #3 – that is one of my favorite Adama lines and it would be awesome to see the moment when he first heard those words. Brilliant!
@Maria, I also agree that Daniel Graystone is not a villain. He’s a classic tragic hero in the Greek tradition.
Like the Greek tragic hero, Daniel is a person of renown possessed of superior accomplishments and yet he is fatally flawed. In this case, it is the desperate love he has for his lost daughter. Driven by the desire to bring his daughter back from the dead – if only as an avatar – he will make decisions that alter his destiny and ultimate cause a dramatic reversal of fortune.
In a classic Greek tragedy, the hero ignores a divine warning or breaks a moral law (think Adama’s impromptu decommissioning speech at the beginning of the BSG Miniseries) and his disastrous end results from mistaken actions that arise from his fatal flaw.
For example, we have already seen that Daniel has renounced taking profits from the sale of electronic products (e.g.: holobands). On the surface, it appears to be a good gesture, however, it will lead to Graystone Industry’s increased reliance on the sale of Cylons to overcome the resulting 60% reduction in net profits. The culmination of Daniel’s actions – done for largely noble and positive reasons – will create the conditions required to unleash the “Cylon tyranny” that causes the complete destruction of humanity across the Twelve Colonies of Kobol.
Ultimately, because the tragic hero’s suffering is greater than his offense we as the audience are made to feel great pity and sorrow for the fallen hero. It is this sweeping emotional response that Aristotle controversially termed catharsis and is a key element to the classic tragedy. Because we know that Daniel was trying to save his daughter’s essence and not intentionally annihilate humanity, we can feel his suffering and take pity in his downfall. However, because we also know the dire consequences to be paid for playing God, we can emotionally cleanse ourselves from those feelings as Daniel is made to account for his transgressions.
Please know that this response became much more analytical than I originally planned and it wasn’t intended as a lecture as I am certainly not a literary scholar (sorry if it’s too “preachy”). This is simply how I see Daniel Graystone’s character playing out as a tragic hero over the series given my admittedly limited knowledge. Thanks for reading and your kind feedback.
February 25th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
@Shauna, I meant to add this to my last reply…great call out on the Colonial Anthem playing in the backgound. I heard it too – it was a very nice detail.
February 25th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
I noticed something I don’t think anyone else has mentioned yet. But in the begninning of this episode right after the cafe was bombed the cop guy (bald guy can’t remember his name) said “Do you think they resurfaced after 10 years just to bomb a train?” Which means the STO has been around for a while. Who knows what they’ve been up to in the past 10 years.
February 25th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
@Tiberius1111: You inspired me to look through my copy of Aristotle’s Poetics. In Book II Tragedy chapter 13, Aristotle writes: “Nor again must a very wicked person be portrayed as passing from good to bad fortune; for even though such a plot would satisfy man’s general sympathetic feeling for man it would not arouse pity or fear; for pity is aroused by the plight of the man who does not deserve his misfortune, and fear by predicaments of men like ourselves. Therefore, neither fear nor pity will result.”
Question: Is Daniel a classic tragic hero who “does not deserve his misfortune” or a “very wicked person” who does.
I think Daniel’s own words convict him. From the board-room scene in There is Another Sky:
Daniel: Beyond artificial intelligence, this is artificial sentience. Do you feel it? I feel it, don’t you? I feel like there is a being inside this machine, something alive, and vital, and special. And it’s not our imagination, look at the test results. There is a brilliant mind in here.
Cyrus: So, in terms of practical applications….
Daniel: Are you seriously asking about the practical applications of creating another race that will walk beside us? [You] do not understand the enormity of this creation. It’s more than a machine. This Cylon will become a tireless worker, who won’t need to be paid. It won’t retire, or get sick. It won’t have rights or objections or complaints. It will do anything and everything we ask of it without question.
At this point Daniel issues the command: “U-87, rip your arm off”.
Daniel fully understands that the Cylon is “more than a machine”, just as the 15th Century Portuguese explorers fully understood that the Africans they were capturing were more than giraffes or lions.
Although no one would condone someone commanding a dog to chew its leg off, it’s a moot point since no dog would do this. But people do train dogs to kill other dogs in dog fights. Great theater for those who enjoy that sort of thing.
My point is that Daniel knows exactly what he’s doing; creating a slave race with a being inside each and every copy. (Presumably he’s solved the copying problem if he’s ready to start selling Cylons).
Perhaps we have the advantage of our American Experience to understand just how wrong this slavery thing is. Plus we have a very large corpus of excellent Sci-Fi literature covering the ramifications of artificially-created sentient beings (e.g. Asimov’s ‘I Robot’ series of stories). In my opinion, that would be Daniel’s only defense, that he couldn’t possibly imagine that enslaving the Cylons was somehow wrong.
I will enjoy watching Daniel react to his own Epiphany when he fully realizes what he’s done.
February 25th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
@VeganDirtEater, an excellent observation and well stated. Glad to have been a minor inspiration.
I agree and think that Daniel deserves misfortune as the rightful consequence for his creation of a permanent – and sentient – slave caste in Colonial society. In the end, his suffering is ultimately disproportionate to his crime and this disparity contributes to the tragic nature of his character. Yes, what Daniel did was wrong – and he knew it – as you clearly showed. However, the total destruction of his planet and near complete genocide of his entire race exacts a payment beyond his crimes.
Using the “American Experience” as a point of reference, the price of slavery – exacted during the Civil War – was painfully high, but the nation as a whole survived its great tragedy.
Daniel currently demonstrates a stunning ambivalence toward the sentience of his Cylon creations that quite possibly belies an underlying subversive – perhaps even wicked – character flaw. Nevertheless, Daniel – as the tragic hero – cannot be all evil, otherwise the audience will be unable to identify with him and the emotional responses of pity and sorrow will be lost – undermining the entire tragedy.
At this early point in the series, I can’t say that Daniel is a “very wicked person”. I think Daniel’s true nature will be fully revealed – just as you predicted – at that moment of epiphany when he realizes the full magnitude of what he has done. His reaction will become the definitive answer to the question.
February 26th, 2010 at 12:53 am
I think we’re jumping the gun a little on this. The episode hasn’t aired yet, however I saw the clip and yes it does show that Daniel doesn’t fully understand what sentience is. If he did he may not have asked the centurion to rip off it’s own arm. But I think it is simply foreshadowing why the cylons rebel against the humans. The humans don’t truly understand that these machines are real. They just seem them as servants that don’t get tired, sick or even have emotions. For all Daniel knows, the machine while alive, has no emotions and therefore no emotional attachment to it’s own body parts.
I think one of the main messages of BSG/Caprica is that no one is completely good or bad/wicked. They are human, and humans make mistakes.
However as far as hero’s go, perhaps Tamara will be the new hero. And the kids of the STO are kids, many may change thier viewpoints as they grow up and may want nothing to do with the STO or may become rebels against them, or a 3rd party could spring off all together.
February 26th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Hi all, I was just wondering during these wonderful discussions as were talking about the STO? Why did the members of the STO set off the bomb on the train in the first place? Sure they seem Taliban like but I have not heard any of them talk about those who believe in other gods as being blasphemers to be destroyed, and what exactly does the religion state aside from believing in only one god? We know it becomes the Cylon religion but now that there is only one (maybe two if Tamara is one) Cylons in the world, who started this religion and what are its laws? Also is a model of cylon going to be made of Daniel Greystone who eventually gets boxed by Cavil, could these be the same Daniels?
Rolling the hard six,
Timmy
February 26th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
After seeing how this is going, I think the zoey character is kinda the red herring (spelling?) of the series. She was the accidental cylon, and whether it is graystone or STO or Tamara herself that gets it done, I think Tamara will become the voice of the cylons so to speak. I’m not real sure how something like this would go down, but I guess tonight’s episode may show us more of the transition.
I’m not real sure how Zoey didn’t see the problems with STO, but perhaps she was never shown the part of the organization that deals with blowing things up. Also, if Zoey was so damned important to STO, who’s bright idea was it to have her boyfriend blow up the tram she was on when she was leaving for Gemini.
As far as Zoey’s plan for her avatar, I really don’t know what was goin on here. Only thing I could come up with was that she was working towards some way to create resurrection style technology.
As far as the STO goes. Isn’t it great how the show mirrors life in that people only ever see what the fanatics of a religion do and consider all members of that religion bad. For instance, if you mention arabs and islam you immediately think of al queda don’t you?
Even though this isn’t necessarily the case, the fanatics always seem to drive the public image, and the populace seems to forget that the fanatics tend to make up less than 10% of the total followers.
February 26th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Just a thought. Clarice gets her direction from head 6 and head baltar.
February 26th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
@Mr. Lovejoy, regarding why would the STO bomb the train. The operative word here seems to be “premature” Twice the writers have given us that descriptive and precise word. Not wrong, not misguided, not overzealous, but premature.
In the pilot, right after Clarice doodles with the water ring:
Lacy: So then, Ben did have something to do with the bombing. He was the terrorist.
Clarice: Labels like ‘terrorist’ are what this corrupt and decadent culture calls people who are trying to fight the real evil in this world. Ben was eager to strike against all that was slowly choking this world to death and so he did something premature, something unauthorized. But was blowing up that train evil? Wrong? No! He was fighting evil with all his heart.
In “Reins of a Waterfall”, Clarice goes virtual to connect with Arvo. The “us” mentioned several times is clearly not the “us” of the general Caprican society. My pure speculation is that the “us” is an ultra-secret group of breeding Cylons from the Thirteenth Colony (the destroyed Earth) who have managed to remain hidden for thousands of years.
Arvo: Clarice.
Clarice: Arvo.
Arvo: You were told not to contact us.
Clarice: I’ve made progress of which you should know.
Arvo: Progress.
Clarice: Yes, I’m getting closer to finding the Zoe Graystone avatar.
Arvo: And lost control in the process, causing us a premature explosion that’s brought retribution on our heads.
Clarice: My life is dedicated to serving Soldiers of The One. The Zoe Graystone avatar is going to help the soldiers to serve the Lord through apotheosis. Or do you deny that prophesy?
Arvo: Not everyone shares your view of apotheosis. Your search for this avatar is putting us at risk.
Clarice: I’m not [unintelligible] God’s plan. I know that Zoe Graystone was beloved of God. And that she was given the spark of life itself. And that was her gift to all of us. And it will save all of us.
Arvo: For your sake, I hope you’re right, Clarice. Work quickly.
Since I don’t have cable, I’ll have to wait until tomorrow when iTunes makes “Another Sky” available for download. I hope the rest of you enjoy the show tonight.
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:26 pm
One minor quibble with your casts: would you please take the apostrophes out of “Graystone’s” and “Adama’s” titles? You don’t need apostrophes to put proper names in plural form. Apostrophes indicate the possessive form, as if the Graystones or the Adamas own the segment you’re about to present. Otherwise, I love watching you guys.
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:32 am
I agree with racheltng, the misplaced apostrophes bothered me too. Otherwise the show is perfect
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:36 pm
Was that Jane Espensen playing the Floor Manager in the Sarno Show scenes?