CapriCast 1.09 – End of Line
Spoiler Alert! With the amount of death and destruction wrought in this episode, it’s a wonder there are any pieces to pick up in September, but this mid-season finale has shaken every character to the core. Is Amanda dead? Is Zoe? It sure looks like Philomon is… and Joseph thinks Tamara is, too. And it’ll take a miracle for Graystone’s military contract to survive!
March 26th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
That’s the good ol BSG high I’ve been withdrawing from.
Poor lab kid! I was hoping they would do more with that character…*snif*
Honestly, tho, I truly hope Amanda is dead. It would just ramp up the intensity of the rivalry to an extreme level, AND we would be rid of an annoyingly stupid character.
I was shocked to see how much the Lacy storyline actually mattered to me in this episode. You really felt Lacy’s shock and desperation. And I love the irony here. Yeah, she was used, but what did she expect?! Furthermore, she was trying to use the STO to get Zoe off world. She was just way over her head. The conclusion of that arc was satisfying in so many ways.
My father got this whole Godfather vibe from the last act (with the vocalist in the background and all of the inter-cut sequences of vengeance. But hey, there are far worse things to borrow from.
Oh, and what’s with showing preparation or consumption of delicious foods whenever Daniel is having a distressing scene that’s just spelling bad news for him? He really needs to start warming TV dinners before he has a nervous breakdown.
A+. Can’t wait for more.
March 26th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
First off, another BSG Cast member has shown up. Jill Teed, who played Master-at-Arms, Sergeant Hadrian (best known from her role in “Litmus”) shows up in this episode. I can’t help but wonder who else will show up in the new series.
I was right on the money about Evelyn. Woo ha!
Also, Daniel played the theme song to the show on the piano. Kinda funny, since that would mark the second theme of a show he’s played.
And talk about a heck of a cliffhanger. I mean, I wasn OMG, WTF?! Now, we don’t know if Zoey really blew up or not. We don’t know if Amanda Graystone is dead. Talk about a mindfrak!
March 26th, 2010 at 11:03 pm
Holy Frakkin hell!!! That was by far one of the best episodes. Enough plot developments for you Matt? lol j/k bro. Love you guys.
Anyways, kudos to CB2001 for first figuring out who Emanuelle was. I was close though. i thought it could be Tamara. But I did say Heracles hired her too.
So Amanda is dead. Aww so sad. Sike. She’ll be back. Like Ellen in BSG, uh. Like I said, she is a precarnation (opposite reincarnation) of Ellen or Number 8/Athena. Maybe even a FF. If their ship is already here. Maybe they don’t remember, like in BSG. Daniel is one, preincarnation of Tigh most likely. Just like the models that stayed with the Humans in the End of BSG are the new FF. All this has happened before all this will happen again. And the The Bridge that Amanda/Athena threw the to herself off of. The twin Mountians on kobol. Athena throwing herself onto the rocks. Her sacrifice/suicide. The Lords of Kobol. The FF. I wonder if she will be buried nearby since Athena’s tomb was near those mountains on Kobol. hmmm. I wonder if it’ll be the place where original Zoe died on the train…. The train. The Park where Amanda’s bro died…. Hmm I wonder what they are/represent, since they are referenced so much in the show. Amanda sure was being driven toward the bridge. Like something was telling her. We got soooo many clues too. The TV broadcast in the background talking about the bridge. It was all there.
Is Sis Clarice Number 3, or Number 1? Or is Barnabus?
I like how we were reminded of Zoe/Hera sending the message to her mom, Amanda/Athen, “Don’t live in regret mom”. She really was a prophet. Hera must have grown up to be ‘Hott’.
Philmon I think will have a deeper meaning later.
Anyways. That was one of my all time fav episodes. It revealed so much to me. too much to type right now.
All this has happened before…
March 26th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Side note. On syfy the following production is a episode of Warehouse 13 is all centered around “Regret”. The actor from “Eureka”, the black guy, goes… “Those who don’t learn from history is doomed to repeat it”. Full circle back to BSG/Caprica. Maybe he is the one who want the break the cycle of the BSGverse. lol. I’m sorry ya’ll. I tend to runaway with my thoughts…
March 26th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Oh one more thing. Looks like Daniel might actually end up losing him company to Vergis, from the looks of the teaser. So many precious things. Poor Daniel. I guys thats the price for reincarnation. They dropped hints on that too in this episode. So many frakkin signs. KU frakkin DOS to RDM.
March 26th, 2010 at 11:54 pm
I think I figured out why it’s so hard for me to get attached to the characters in order to really care about what happens too them. Too many story lines going at once. Daniel vs Zoe and Vergis, Amanda vs Clarice, her dead brother and mental illness, suicide, Clarice vs Amanda, Lacey, barnabus, Zoe, Joseph vs Tamra, Evalyn/Emmanuel. I’m sure I forgot a few story lines in there. It felt like in this episode we only got 30 seconds with each story line. It was hard to actually get into it. Too much going on and too little time to let it play out. Maybe if they had more than 9 episodes they could have devoted more time too it or at least had a 2 hour mid season finale. I find it a little frustrating because I am an avid, loyal, obsessed BSG fan. And the potential for Caprica is AMAZING! I’ve even heard that in the last half of season 1 and season 2 we get to see Geminon and Tauron which are completley different kinds of worlds than caprica (which is much like our own in many ways) But if they have too much going on at once only allowing for 5 mintues per story line in each episode it’s hard to get attached. I loved episodes like “Maelstrom” “Torn” “No Exit” etc…. episodes that really allowed for the evolution of the show. I really think the exploration of Tauron and Tauron culture deserves a whole 9 episodes in and of itself, nevermind all the other things going on.
OK Now that my critique/bitching is done, I did like this episode. I can’t get enough of James Marsters. He seems to bring so much depth to any character he plays. I feel bad for the technician guy Zoe accidentally killed but I still think Zoe is a spoiled little brat who’s been totally brainwashed by the STO. I have a lot of compassion for Amanda and Daniel for different reasons and I see big leaps coming for Lacey. But for some reason I’m really excited about Jill Teed’s character, she has an Admiral Cain vibe too her and I think she’s going to shake things up. Something tells me she’s Tauron as well. It would be so cool to find out She’s Admiral Cain’s mother or something like that.
PS Good Call on evalyn being Emmanuel CB2001
March 27th, 2010 at 1:00 am
Thanks to both Kristy and Goku.
Goku- That may be true about Heracles hiring her. But apparently she did do it for love as well. Love, the thing that has caused a lot of problems in the BSG universe.
March 27th, 2010 at 1:41 am
Random thought based on craziness: Starbuck’s mom is Amanda. I don’t know, just random thought.
March 27th, 2010 at 1:48 am
Wow. Typo, I meant Lacy. Oh well. It’s an assumption. I just need more connectible characters to BSG.
March 27th, 2010 at 2:00 am
@Mario – That’s an interesting theory. Starbucks mom was in the military for a while during the first cylon war. It’ll be interesting to see if she decides to redeem herself for her actions with the STO by joining the military. Then getting more and more bitter till she becomes the calloused mom starbuck was raised by.
March 27th, 2010 at 4:08 am
So is this the season final? Or the 1.0 final with 1.5 to come in 6 months from now????? I can’t find any reference to any future episodes anywhere.
Oh, and it goes without saying that yes, it was freakin awesome!!!!
March 27th, 2010 at 4:46 am
Ok so a bit more research seems to suggest this is indeed the 1.0 final. (Not to mention watching the awesome CapriCast review of 1.08!)
Do we know when Season 1.5 will commence??
March 27th, 2010 at 6:38 am
Amanda is Athena of Kobol. Trust me. You mean you guys didn’t see it with her suicide? The Bridge, they looking just like to two mountains on Kobol. See my earlier post.
March 27th, 2010 at 7:43 am
@ Aaron: according to the IMDB, the second half of season 1 will start airing in October.
Great episode, lot’s of cliffhangers. James Marsters rules!
I think I’ll have to rewatch and process before I can comment more closely.
Just two details that jumped to my mind:
Just something that seemed a bit off to me, just like the U 87 not copying every single last one of Zoe’s movements – just the twitches.
1. How do they take off virtual glasses in V-world (like Zoe did on her Philo-date)? Isn’t the same movement used to take off the holoband?
2. So, they have Christmas now in the Colonies? It immediately broke my suspension of disbelief when Clarice talked about her journey to Gemenon as “just a little Christmas-trip”. When they introduced Eros-day later in the episode (which I liked very much), I thought Clarice might have said “Erosmas” (since “-mas” can technically be attached to the name of any saint to refer to his/her holiday), but when I went back to check it out, Clarice was definetely saying something that started with “Chr-” and endet with “-smas”… It really is a minor detail, but it nags at me all the same. I sure hope there is some hero/saint/semi-god in the colonial pantheon that matches such a name, because with Jesus Christ being born only 100.000 years later, there can’t be a colonial holiday named Christmas.
Other than that, awesome midseason finale.
March 27th, 2010 at 7:50 am
@Crispin: Thanks for that. I guess I should be ‘happy’ that at least it’s in this calendar year.
I thought that she said “business” trip, not “Christmas” trip. But I’m definitely going to need to re-watch. I just discovered that they’ve done podcast commentaries!! (I’ve been avoiding SyFy.com because I didn’t want spoilers.) Time to rewatch the whole season!!!!
March 27th, 2010 at 11:31 am
now i can’t wait for the second half of season 1, lets just hope they don’t pull a 1.0 then 1.5 dvd sets.
March 27th, 2010 at 11:35 am
The problem with young characters on TV is that the actors get older. With Zoe, that is a problem since an aging avatar maybe problemmatic (yes the FF did age since Tigh had hair when he met Adama, but software doesn’t). The solution is for Zoe to be erased after the accident or by the acident. This still means that implanting avatars is the only way to make the MCP work. Expect a desperate Daniel to use the cylons as holding cells for avatars. The cylons become true slaves since they encase the digital reminance of the dead.
To quote Babylon5, “Zoe’s dead”. Amanda is the next cylon. Lab kid had to die since the idea of a sin by a machine must be explored and what better sin then killing in anger (leave the accidental killing stuff to the lawyers, frak that means Adama now has a link back to the cylons (in court)).
Remember, the FF got there after the war began. As for Kara Thrace, she is supposed to be the enigma. Kara is not a cylon, a head character or Lord of Kobol. As I theorized earlier, Kara is a force of nature coming to terms with collective humanity transitioning from temporal being to being another force of nature.
The STO is apparently a heretical order that caused the destruction of Kobol and now moves onto the colonies. Kara maybe an attempt by nature to straddle STO force of nature with the humanity force of nature. She loved a cylon and human, so she maybe the reconcilliation.
Excellent call on Evelyn, Brian. But you can’t spell Evelyn without the Evel (evil). She is hardcore Tauron. She practically calls Sam a wuss. She is cut from the same cloth as Adama’s mother-in-law. Lady Macbeth could take lessons from her.
So we got new BSG, B5, Shakespeare and old BSG in the wings (I’d explain but that would be a spoiler).
Frak, the psycho-babel! When do we see the evil side of the players? Next season?
March 27th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
@CB2001: Congrats at nailing the Emmanuelle/Evelyn connection. It’s now almost certain that the BSG continuity question of Evelyn being William’s “mother” will be answered.
“ I feel thin… sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread.” – Bilbo Baggins
That’s the way this episode felt, in an inverse way. So much plot movement, so little time for enjoyment as it all unfolded, this episode had more than enough for a double-length finale.
The widespread killing off of characters and relationships seems very risky. Listening to the podcasts, it’s obvious that the concept of “imperfect” characters (that’s good, no one is perfect) has been replaced by the concept of really messed up characters (that’s bad, not very interesting when almost everyone left is a steaming pile of crap). I really didn’t like how Lacy folded under pressure. Lacy had seemed to be a holdout of decency and common sense. Not anymore. Just another Manson family member. Big yawn.
Amanda was one of those really messed up characters but she was messed up in interesting ways. Crazy, grief-stricken and well-played by Paula Malcomson, Amanda will be sorely missed unless Clarice somehow rescues her broken body before she drowns. I hope this is the case. Listening to the Caprica TV program on the bridge, it was described as almost 100 meters above mean sea level. That’s even higher than the Golden Gate, so survival seems impossible.
I really liked Philomon with his nerdy sincerity and enthusiastic intelligence. Having Zoe kill him semi-accidentally was an effective way of pushing Zoe over the edge. Zoe’s mere belief in his death would have been sufficient (see Romeo and Juliet). Had Philomon actually survived, he might have spilled the beans on the U-87 which would have put even more heat on Daniel. Burn Daniel, burn.
The resolution of Joseph’s quest to find his daughter seemed rushed. Tamara could have ended Joseph’s pursuit move effectively and with more closure. Joseph seemed to have a bit of Captain Ahab in him. Melville wouldn’t have let Joseph give up so easily.
Zoe’s suicide run at the barricade leaves open the question of how much of Zoe will survive. I hope it’s all of Zoe-A. Having her diminished will do the same to the series.
Clarice surviving the bombing will be enhanced if she can keep her survival secret as long as possible. After the bomb went off, Barnabas said “Kolob”. He seems to be fighting a battle thousands of years old.
The best part of End of Line was Bear McCreary’s mini opera. I didn’t realize at first listening that Alessandro Juliani (Felix Gaeta of BSG) was the baritone. I rewatched the episode just to focus on the music.
Other languages use the Pluperfect Subjunctive far more than Modern English does, but I’ve felt compelled to perhaps overuse “would have, could have, should have” in thinking about this episode.
With the exit of Amanda and Philomon and the ending of Joseph’s quest, this series has some gaping holes to fill. I remain hopeful this can be done in a way to make us not feel cheated after waiting until September or October. Until then, there’s the reruns and I hope some interim webisodes.
March 27th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Great mid-season finale! Just a quick comment on Kara: I see her as the wildcard, the cylons did not know what to do with her, the Adama’s loved her, a cylon loved her, so she was the player to break the cycle. All I wanted was a hug or something for Lee in the end, but that story is over.
Okay back to Caprica:
I knew Amanda had become despondent, and I said this on syfy, the pills, the booze, and the fact she not only never knew her daughter, and they had a fight before she died, added to her pain. That deleted scene on syfy.com where she is hysterical and guilty about her last words to her daughter and crying to Daniel after she knows he has made an avatar, should have been kept in that episode. She wants to say I’m sorry, and we see Zoe is upset in the cylon body, while seeing her mother grieving.
When Daniel admits to stealing the chip, and she just leaves, I do not think that he even considered that she was suicidal. When she said how he had been the rock that made the crazy go away, and then now seeing that he was not the man she thought he was, was the last straw. But this was my problem: Amanda was a successful plastic surgeon, which means she was smart, and the crazy went away enough to have a SUCCESSFUL career, AS A DR no less. To see her go from that, to a broken person, presumably the one who met Daniel, would have made more sense if it had kept going into 1.5. I think the suicide attempt was on its’ way, but it was too soon. But I did like how it coincided with the end of Daniel’s life’s work, & the robot body of Zoe. Amanda is saved by Clarice, I’m pretty sure on that one, and the power struggle w/Barnabas will get even juicier.
Oh Lacy, you’re a big girl now! being 16, naive, and just wanting to become a terrorist to do what Zoe wants, has a price, doesn’t it?
She also has finally grown up, and as i said on another board, if Zoe had lived and gotten to Gemenon, I think she would have been in the same position. We know Clarice just wants that avatar to prove that there is an afterlife. I’m not quite sure what Barnabas believes in, except blowing things up, but he’s not in the apotheosis camp. Boy, how appropriate when he says to Lacy, “welcome to the deep end little one.”, well done. I mean Keon, who we know really, really likes Lacy, looked so sad; I mean afterall they are all only kids which is probably why Barnabas and Clarice have been drawing them in so easily (well and their desire for being in a world where there is a clear right way, and a clear wrong way, as v-world has become way too real for a lot of people. Just a side note: where are these kids’ parents? I thought they all went to this posh private school, yet it seems all the kids we meet are poor except for Zoe? No wonder Clarice is in there recruiting, it’s kids who have no parenting, wahoo! Fresh meat for terrorists.
Tamara/Joe/Sam/Evelyn: Well, I hope we see a lot more of Tamara, a she is the wildcard this time, as no one knows what she is, as she’s dead, but can change avatars which are pure code. Remember, Heracles said that in a non-fantasy game, the players had some genetic elements to them.
She also looks fantastic and I love what she did w/the Adama’s place. Well oops! Evelyn got Joe hooked on the v-world drug, and clearly had been talking to Sam about what was going on, and he had been in the loop for a while. Plus we find out Joe misses an important milestone in Willy’s life when Sam has to stand in for him. I do not think Evelyn did it on purpose, as I think she thought that seeing all of Tamara’s signs on the wall was going to finish it. But he kept looking, and we don’t know how long he has been in there; months? days?. When she goes to find Tamara, who we find out has been hiding from her Dad, she does the right thing. Tamara does as well; and even though it went down differently than I thought it would, Joe can finally get that his little girl is dead. But as we see in Zoe, the humanity of Tamara is seen everytime she urges Heracles to make a life outside v-world, as she tells her father in the end. She has feelings, unselfish ones, but being Tauron, they seem to go for brutal honesty, no mincing words w/that crowd. Seeing Joe wake up and curl up like that, was heartbreaking, but there was Evelyn! to pick up the pieces.
Well, this epi also confirmed who has been backing Evelyn this whole time; the Ha’la’tha (spelling?). They are the ones who were supposedly paying her all that money to guide Joe. Afterall, they need him to acquit Sam and all of their people, right? This explains Sam and Evelyn seeming so close, and Sam asking her to watch him, and her saying that he is sick, and that he has to go get some Tauren meats. Sam was so disgusted and so upset at the same time; he’s a great brother. I hope we see more of him as well, he’s a great character. I think it also shows the mob is more involved in this than we have thought, and were actually in it from the beginning.
At this point I will comment on Daniel and Joe since they were both in denial about their daughters. They were also destroying their real lives in pursuit of their daughters. Joe was ignoring Willie, Daniel was clearly not seeing his wife on pills and booze, and becoming despondent. He knows when he tells Philo to wipe the disk, he did it looking at Zoe, as if to say fine, it’s over. It was cruel, but maybe he thought that was necessary for him and her? I don’t know; but Daniel has his own naivete, as we have seen w/his first trip to the V-club, and this childish obsession w/keeping the c-bucks. You know that’s the geek complex coming out: he was always made fun of , bad at sports, but he got back at all of them, he BOUGHT the team. But he’s hot, as are most of the men on this show.
Well, when Zoe naturally freaks out, that she’s going to “die” by being wiped from the disc, she yells at poor Lacy, and then outs herself to Philo in a last ditch effort to save herself. She realized, oops! I should have trusted my Dad, and then she accidentally killed Philo, who it seems we will be seeing again. I am glad the run to the van was quick, as it looked a bit silly. However, when Daniel goes down there, sees the robot is gone, and that Philo is dead, he knows for sure that Zoe was in there, and had taken over. Afterall, the directive was not to hurt the robot.
Now, I saw how human Zoe really is, a human soul, as she drives crying down the road in the van. I liked how they showed her revisiting her memories, which I saw as regrets. I think that spoiled, bratty Zoe is gone, and she saw her only way out, specifically out of that robot for good, was to kill it; and risk her own. I have always thought that her comments in the VIP room, like she would have shot her Dad, and needed to leave before she did something she would regret, all while yelling at her best friend, were bratty. We had also already seen the real spoiled Zoe, when she says “it’s all about the work, same old Daddy”, he doesn’t care about me. So, when she actually kills someone accidentally, she’s horrified, and suddenly realizes how wrong she has been; that BS is a whole lot different than the real thing; thus the tears, and the flashbacks.
I loved seeing her as a real human soul, and how really there was beauty in what the gifted Zoe G. had been. Seeing her take that last look in the rearview mirror and we see human Zoe, and she sees the robot, was amazing. Remember she’s not dead, she makes the thing move, she is not the robot. But even if the chip is destroyed, it won’t matter, it doesn’t work anyway. I know she was on it, but somehow she’ll wake up in v-world. I loved how it coincided w/Amanda, and the bombing of Clarice’s van.
Vergis, man he is getting slimier and slimier each episode. I love how he uses language like “you’ll break bread with me” but you wouldn’t get in the car w/me (or something to that effect). It makes him sound like a God, as it is biblical type language. He definitely has a god complex and I still predict that he will try to steal Amanda from Daniel to no avail, but he will fall hard for her. In addition, in the end, he’s not going to get that chip working w/out Daniel.
Finally, that phone call was about the robot, not Amanda. He would not know about her yet, between the bombing and the robot chase, finding her would be the last thing to be discovered. But we all know Clarice saved her–
k
March 27th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
Lovely Vanishing Point reference (the light shining between the trucks at the barrier).
March 27th, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Before you read my reply, I should warn you that I suffer from a multiple personality disorder. Specifically, I have two personalities. A little weak, I know, but technically, you only need more than one personality to have multiple personality disorder.
Anyway, my alter ego likes to argue with me and often rudely interrupts me in the middle of writing comments online. Thankfully, he usually writes his opinions in quotes. So if it sounds like I’m arguing with myself, just keep in mind that it’s my alter ego.
I really enjoyed End of Line overall, but I felt like the cliffhangers were a little weak — at least I did at first.
“What are you talking about?! There are THREE cliffhangers instead of just one. How can you even think this was a weak cliffhanger?”
OK, fair enough. But I don’t think these are truly cliffhangers. What were the three cliffhangers you had in mind?
“Did the Zoe robot survive the crash? Did Amanda survive jumping off of the bridge? And is Tamara really gone, out of Joseph life forever?”
All I have to say is this. If you really think there’s a chance that Zoe, Amanda, and Tamara are really all gone forever from this show, then yes, last night’s episode gave you three huge cliffhangers.
It’s a little like Kobol’s Last Gleaming, Part II (i.e. the last episode of season I of Battlestar Galactica). Deep down, even after Adama was shot twice in the chest, no matter how bad he looked, deep down we knew that he was too important of a character to have died. We knew he would pull through, no matter how grim his prognosis.
“All right, I see your point now. But you said that we actually do have a good cliffhanger in this episode. What is it?”
Now we have a sentient Cylon.
“You have got to be kidding. We’ve known for weeks that we had a Cylon that could think. What show have you been watching?”
Yes, WE have known. But now, everyone knows. There was a high-speed chase through Caprica city. Before, only the viewers and Lacy new the secret. Now, everybody knows, or at least will soon know. It’s a complete game-changing plot twist.
Allow me to refer to Kobol’s Last Gleaming again. Boomer shooting Adama was a great cliffhanger not because we didn’t know if Adama was going to pull through, but because it changed one of the characters in a very fundamental way. Before, Boomer was the scared Cylon living a secret that nobody knew. But in the span of about ten seconds, EVERYBODY knew that she was a Cylon. And then the season ended. Now that’s a cliffhanger.
“True, true, I see what you’re saying.”
Good, and in the same way, last night’s episode is a true cliffhanger because now everybody knows that we have thinking robots, whereas almost nobody knew. It’ll be interesting to see what direction they take things in next season.
March 27th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Daniel now knows that he successfully transferred Zoe into the Cylon body. Even if this copy of her is destroyed or damaged beyond repair, Zoe’s avatar can always be re-born – Tamara’s avatar is proof of that, and Daniel should go looking for her now that he knows Zoe’s was not lost.
I think Amanda’s body is dead – she and Philomon are the next to join the world as avatars. Daniel is about to become a necromancer; trying to bring his family, his world back to life.
March 27th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
@VeganDirtEater
Regarding Lacy…what did you expect her to do? The man was threatening to kill a lot of people (including herself, if I’m not mistaken) if she didn’t push the button. Yeah, she folded…but it was quite the complicated situation, no? I’d at least consider folding if some nutjob had a gun to me and my girlfriend (though to be honest, I wouldn’t have gotten involved with religious zealots in the first place
).
@ Kristy
I, too, loved Maelstrom. But the other two examples you cited aren’t very good examples of taking things one at a time (or good drama, for that matter). Torn was split between Kara, Tigh, and Baltar, and provided a setup to one of the most disappointingly bad episodes in the series. No Exit was an information dump of an episode that went by so fast that I (a man who prides himself on memorizing lines really well) had to watch it twice just to understand the basics of what was being said. That was a perfect example of how the writeres mishandled the pacing of the fourth season. And while I agree that this episode of Caprica felt a bit rushed, it wasn’t really that bad. Certainly not as bad as some other examples of rushed story lines I can think of.
And besides, who couldn’t love that mini-opera? My gods, that was one of the best pieces of music to grace the presence of a TV set I’ve ever heard! And w00t for Gaita’s voice…I didn’t even imagine how powerful, controlled, and emotionally dynamic it was in an opera setting. Simply stunning.
If Caprica doesn’t win some emmys for this episode’s score, then we’ll REALLY know there is no emmy justice at all.
March 27th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
VeganDirtEater- Thanks. You know, I never thought about the idea of Evelyn becoming Willie’s stepmother.
March 27th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
@Brian – Well I guess everyone sees it all differently. Yes Maelstrom what Kara heavy but Torn introduced the hybrid and focused a lot on how cylons function and how thier technology works which evolved the show. And No exit to me really helped to open up the plot of the final five. Which also evolved the show. Those 3 episodes also happen to by some of my all time favorites! I absolutely loooooved them. But regardless I was just using it as an example. I could have picked other episodes those just happen to jump to mind. My point was simply that Caprica is so new and they are trying to do way too much at once that it’s making it hard (for me) to get attached to the characters. And I don’t feel like I’m getting my fill of the plot lines I do like. It just my opinion on it and a hope that they will get more in depth in the future even if it means they have to pull a “lost” and devote one episode to only 2 plot lines or 1 character so we can at least get closer with that character(s) as opposed to 30 seconds with all of them and not get attached. It’s just my perspective, maybe not everyone shares that opinion.
I’m really looking forward to seeing Tauron and what that planet looks like and the culture development.
March 28th, 2010 at 12:22 am
@Kirsty
Oh, yeah, I forgot about the introduction of the hybrids, which is one of my all-time favorite parts of BSG. Baltar’s arc with the cylons and the hybrids was really the saving grace of that episode IIRC.
And I do see where you’re coming from. Caprica’s danger is similar to that of Lost in that it has just too many characters – a problem which it looks like they rectified (to some degree at least) this season finale. You always run the risk of watering down the characters and their arcs when there are too many…but the execution is (as it usually was with BSG) phenomenal. In fact, the editing of the last act was particularly well done IMO. It built up tension toward the three huge events that were going on, and it meshed REALLY well. Ever since Kobol’s Last Gleaming’s first act (where Lee and Adama are boxing, Helo shoots Sharron, Kara sleeps with Baltar, and Boomer tries to shoot herself), I’ve simply loved the idea of badass intercuting (is that a word? Well, you know what I mean). And really, the BSG people are one of the few groups that have been able to craft montages like that flawlessly. Between the always amazing editing, the usually superb performances, and Bear’s godly score, you can’t get much better.
I will have to disagree with you in your assertion that they’re trying to do too much. If they try to do less, it would really become boring, slow, and uninteresting. BSG was the same way with its speedy plots. They revealed that the cylons looked like humans sooner than I thought they would, for example. There is something to be said for rapid pace. It makes for an amazing season.
I do agree, tho, that it can feel a bit unfocused at times. I have confidence, though, that they’ll be able to fix that in the coming episodes.
March 28th, 2010 at 5:17 am
@kassandra of Troy, Thanks for your wonderfully reflective analysis of this excellent episode. I do agree with the sentiments you have expressed. Zoe DID finally realize her mistakes I think based on her reactions to accidentally killing Philemon and her desperate attempt to escape. I do think Dr. Daniel Graystone does love his daughter very much. Even though some of his motives can be questioned due to the benefits of the Zoe avatar to the U87 contract with the military, he actually does love both his daughter and his company (and his wife and the C-Bucs). He is very imperfect and flawed but is overall a well intentioned person IMHO. (Yes, I know how he helps to trigger the later holocaust of 20 billion people across 12 planets but there is plenty of blame to go around on that one.)
March 28th, 2010 at 9:41 am
@Brian
Regarding Lacy folding, I was referring to how she inexplicably refused to help Zoe after Zoe explained what was going to happen to her that very day. What could possibly be the point of getting further into the good graces of Barnabas if Zoe’s MCP has been run through the Zap cycle? By the time she got to Barnabas, I agree, it was too late. Recalling a drawing of a mouse flipping off an eagle “Last Great Act of Defiance”, I suppose Lacy’s only option when the gun was pointed was to pop out the batteries and throw the cell across the room, saying “Go Fetch”. That would be asking too much. But pretty damn funny.
@Drs_Graystone
I think the hateful torture Daniel inflicted on Zoe in the U-87 was reflective of how Daniel really felt about his daughter. Just as Capricans do morally repulsive things in the V-world that they could never do (without legal results) in the real world, Daniel seemed to be abusing his daughter with the fig leaf that it wasn’t really her. But he knew it was her. He said she was a “perfect” copy in the pilot. Daniel believed that his daughter was an “empty, soulless thing”, allowing him to torture his kid without limit. What a monster. Hitler was well-intentioned from the perspective of the Jew-haters. How can anyone possibly say that Daniel is well-intentioned? Creating a race of sentient slaves on purpose? That cannot possibly end well. Humanity may have to actually address this issue some day. Let’s hope the people making decisions that matter aren’t as “well-intentioned” as Daniel. For further reading, check out “The Age of Spiritual Machines” by Ray Kurzweil, published in 1999 (well before the recent BSG). At least it’s not the usual robots rebel against their human masters plot. Was Caprican culture totally bereft of Science Fiction? What were these people thinking?
March 28th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Some of you may be unaware of Bill Joy’s non-fiction article “Why the future doesn’t need us”. Bill Joy is a Co-founder of Sun Microsystems and has significant respect in the world of computer science. His 11-page article is available here: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html. A must-read for anyone interested or concerned with our future relationship with smart machines.
March 28th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
@Vegandirteater in regards to the way daniel treated zoe in the U-87. I don’t think it is because he hates his daughter, or because caprican’s are somehow morally corrupt. I think it’s because he loves his daughter so much and his feelings are just so hurt that she would not only do somthing that would take her own life, but now that he has a chance to be with her again (or at least a version of her) she refuses to talk to him. His heart is completly broken just like Amanda’s was when she outted her daughter as a terrorist. Thier grief has turned to anger. His actions are more of a “frak you, why don’t you love me? You hate me that much, well I’ll give you a reason to hate me then.” That plus the desperation to have her in his life again. He’d do or say anything if it would just get a response from her. And I think we’re all forgetting that daniel probably doesn’t fully understand what he’s done as far as creating sentient machines. He just wants his daughter back. Comparing him to hitler is a little extreem in my opinon. I see him as a desperate father who’s walking the line between sanity and lunacy. Grief can make people do strange things. Hitler’s intentions were pure evil, he knew exactly what he was doing and wanted total genocide. Daniel just wants his daughter back, and his job is to create these machines. It may lead to the same results as with the 2nd world war…even worse as we all know. But the initial reasons are totally different in my opinion. The STO is closer to being like the Nazi’s than Daniel.
@Brian – I love what a loyal fan you are haha. I think that no matter how the BSG crew goes about it they will make a masterpiece out of the show. When Kara blew up I litterally had a tear in my eye. When Zoe went flying and Amanda dropped to her possible demise I didn’t even flinch. I’m just hoping they can get me to that intensity in the coming episodes. I’m sure they will.
March 28th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
@Kirsty It wasn’t my intention to directly compare Daniel Graystone to Adolph Hitler. It was my intention to attempt to show how meaningless the words “well intentioned” can be by giving the most extreme example I could think of. Other “well intentioned” people are the folks who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors who work there. Those nuts are certainly “well intentioned” in the eyes of the most extreme. The nineteen terrorists who killed 3000 people on 9/11/01 were certainly “well intentioned” in the eyes of many young jihadists around the world. Our history is littered with “well intentioned” people who do extreme evil.
The writers of Caprica have bent over backwards to show the character of Daniel Graystone as a mad scientist. Eric Stoltz was initially taken aback by how extreme his character had become. But Eric quickly “got it”. (About 21 minutes into the Ghosts in the Machine podcast). Daniel has been unlimited in what he would do to get his daughter to show herself. I don’t think people would be as understanding of a real parent who ran a garden hose from a car exhaust to a closet where a real child was hiding and threatened to kill the kid unless they unlocked the door. Perhaps because the characters we’re discussing are fictional allows commenters to cut them a bit more slack. And projecting their own goodness onto these characters results in misplaced optimism. Misplaced, in my opinion. But, you never know what the writers may write. Daniel could have a “road to Damascus epiphany” and completely change his character next season. I remember what Samuel Clemens said about “Truth is stranger than Fiction, because Fiction has to make sense”. Good fiction, that is. If we see some unbelievable swings next season, I will know what kind of fiction I’m looking at.
I just listened to the end of the episode 108 podcast, and was surprised to learn that initially the dog character “Caesar” was going to be actually shot (the dog character, not the dog actor). Thankfully the SyFy network nixed that plan. Good thing Caprica is shown on Fridays. Had that episode aired on a Monday (March 15th), the temptation for Caesar to die might have been too great.
If people read the link to Bill Joy’s article, the three paragraphs on the first page were written by the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. If you can make it past that diatribe, the rest of the article is easier to read. If the Unabomber had had some people skills, he might have become a real-life Barnabas. Kaczynski did enough damage as a loner living in a mountain cabin.
March 28th, 2010 at 8:19 pm
@Vegandirteater – Very articulately said. I see your point, and you may be right that I am projecting my goodness or belief in goodness onto him. I do see the deep seeded good in people as opposed to any deep seeded evil. In BSG the only character I didn’t have compassion for was Admiral Cain…even though she’s one of my favorite characters. But even still I understand the phycology behind her actions. The rest I could see good in and the inherent humanity (even the cylons) That being said, taking a step back and looking at it objectively, I agree that this was a very cruel way to treat Zoe, even avatar Zoe. If it was his human daughter we would all be appalled. However had it been his human daughter he probably never would have done that in the first place. Which of course is part of what led to the rebellion of the cylons and the war that subsequently arose as a result. The consistent mistreatment of the cylon’s given that they are all sentient. And Daniel does admit they are sentient. So if I were to give a less personalized opinion of his actions I would say that he is acting like a typical CEO/sociopath willing to do whatever it takes to get what he wants no matter who he hurts. I still think that mixed in it all is a grieving father and that is the motivating factor behind much of his actions. Look how distraught he was in the pilot. I don’t think that pain has gone away at all. It’s turned to anger. Much like Cavel’s pain, and rejection morphed into a hatred so great it destroyed the 12 colonies. (Not an excuse for thier actions simply an observation) I think it’s easy to forget that all these “Villians” are also people, and subject to the same emotions and fallibilities. I think that Daniels grief is driving him mad and to do things he wouldn’t otherwise do. When he asked Joseph to steal the disk from Vergis, downloading Zoe into the disk, torturing zoe in the U87 is all about getting her back. Creating a working U-87 has always been a side project for him. He’s just as obsessed as Joseph just in a different way. But none of this excuses Daniels actions.
But I think I might be rambling here. Back to the point, yes your right, the road to hell is paved with “good intentions” and not all percieved good intentions are actually good. I think that in this scenerio it’s slightly different in the way that. Zoe’s boyfriend blew up the train, and from his perspective his intentions were good. But for Daniel his intentions are to talk to his daughter, not destroy the 12 colonies. That was an unfortunate consequence to his actions that he never could have predicted. The comparison is slightly different. Zoe’s boyfriend knew everyone on that section of the train would die. Daniel does not know that treating his daughter like that will inevitably create a ruthless cold version of cylons that will eventually kill everyone. Although he should know that treating anyone that way will have negative reactions.
Yes I know I’m a bleeding heart.
March 28th, 2010 at 10:36 pm
@Drs_Graystone: thanks so much for your compliments, that was very kind of you. I think that they Graystones are actually a very normal couple, who are dealing with the worst thing that can happen to a parent, losing your child. They love each other and are a team, but the death of Zoe, and Amanda’s saying that she was a terrorist who blew up the train, made things more complicated. Daniel fighting for his company, and the life he has built, along w/the grief, which he has not fully accepted because he thinks somehow he lost Zoe by copying her into the robot. He knows somehow she’s there, as verified for him by Vergis.
I knew someone from a long time ago, who lost her younger brother in a drunk driving accident. Before he left that night, they had a huge fight, and she became an alcoholic as a result, because their last words were so hateful. But somehow has become a successful lawyer along the way. It destroyed her family as her other sister committed suicide, she’s a alcoholic in denial, and there is one sister left. What is happening to the Graystones, is normal and human.
Now Zoe: she didn’t blow up the train, but all she wanted was to bring Zoe B to Geminon. I definitely think it has something to do w/an afterlife, which may be why there was no fear in her voice on the train. I think it was just fate that she left that note for her mother; she did not think she was going to die, but it was a good-bye for running away, not dying. I felt that right before the train blows up, Zoe says no-but she doesn’t scream it, as in terror, which has always bothered me. I felt like she was saying something; “no, not yet, it’s too soon, this is not what we are about”, not I’m about to die. Perhaps she had some idea she was going to be “reborn” in virtual Zoe, thus the lack of fear in her voice. It reminded me of that flashback Tigh has of Ellen when they were on the first earth, and she says, don’t worry we’ll be together again, as she was being crushed by all that concrete. She seemed so calm, even in so much pain. Zoe did not know her boyfriend was planning on being a suicide bomber, and I do not think that either she, or Lacy are killers. Their naivete drew them into an organization that deliberately uses that innocence still left in a teen, to do their dirty work.
Amanda: she is not dead! Clarice sees her, and I can bet talks her down. In fact that moment may not even be real. I think she went up there, planning to leave her ring for Daniel to say she loved him, but I don’t think she jumped. She has just seen in her vision that chasing Darius, led her to the sink where she slit her wrists. I am on board with that she falls like one would imagine that Athena had, in a vision.
I think Amanda is someone who is seeing “the signs” that Anders mentioned. That moment equated w/Athena is dead on, if Darius has been sending her a message. But how would she know that Darius was sending her a message, and the end of the world started w/her husband? Anders was right, people were seeing signs and Amanda was the first one, that we know of, which makes sense. Afterall she quoted “All of this has happened before and will happen again”.
Also, Zoe was Daddy’s little girl, it was Amanda who was always disciplining her. Remember in that scene when they find out she cuts school again, and Daniel was kind of blowing it off. But as we know now, they were bad parents, and her rebellion stemmed from a lack of attention, which sadly often happens to parents of children, who do not grow up w/money, but work hard for what they have, and then get angry at their kids when the rebel, ie. Zoe. I’ve seen it, I’m a teacher and I went to prep school my entire life; and the kids who were in this exact position, were often in the “fast crowd” so to speak. They even said they were always getting yelled at, in the exact same wording as Amanda has for Zoe before she dies; it’s a hard pill for those parents to swallow. They don’t understand because they are able to provide their child w/everything they never had, and for them that means they are doing a good job. But what often happens is, as we see here; Zoe’s emotional needs are not met, because she is not being parented, and she acts out.
In response to some other comments: I think its’ too soon to be considering anyone a future cylon model, or anything to do w/the reality we know as BSG. Lee and Kara were in their early 30’s when the war began and the fleet ran. This means that yes, their parents are alive now, and we know they both fight in the first cylon war, which will be in 9 years.
But I want to see a few things in this series:
The reactions of Daniel and Vergis when the war begins, as I am pretty sure they will work together, and from that preview it sounds like Clarice incites the rebellion.
We know the beginning of the end happened in that board room, I was welling up when it happened. But now we know that “souls” are going to somehow be put in the cylons, which is how they become sentient beings, who evolve and have free will (later suppressed by the Cavils).
We know that the avatars will be able to be copied, thus the idea of resurrection comes into play, and how the centurions figure out they want it from the 5.
I believe that Clarice is going to see the avatars/souls that are being created, as the afterlife she has sought to find and prove. She will see that souls have been “trapped” in the cylon bodies, and thus enslaved by humanity. I get this from the above moment mentioned from the previews.
I will say again: Tamara is the wildcard here as Starbuck is in the future. No one knows what she is, like Kara after Maelstrom, but we do know that the combination of Tamara, the “soul” of Zoe and the ability to be reborn in the robot body, are all connected. But the robot body is a cage, and the evolution will take place from within, which I like. I have never been able to theorize how the cylons “evolved” and then built space ships and stuff.
If Vergis and Daniel make avatars from other dead people, they will evolve as Tamara has, she may have died on Caprica, but now she can’t die! Even Zoe, who is also a soul, won’t be able to die either. I think Zoe had completed her project, and she had not realized it yet. Her father actually copied it better than he thought into the Tamara we see in v-world. This will be the “evolution” that leads to the end, as how else would they evolve? They can’t work without a soul inside, so what is the next obvious step? The evolution of the soul.
The questions we always asked about the cylons, was where would the idea of resurrection come from? I think that it comes from what I stated above. They had souls, but how could they keep on living? Downloading into other bodies, thus the desire to get resurrection from the FF.
My final comment is about Boomer. NOTHING impacted that series and its’ characters fear of cylons, more than Boomer shooting Adama, “waking up” and screaming after she sees what she had done. It was horrifying and heartbreaking all at once. Remember she didn’t know what happened? She thought she was a cylon, but Baltar lied about her test, as Head six requested.
It is the moment that the FF, fear more than anything. We see Anders say that what if he turns like Boomer and goes against his own? Tyrol falling off of that barrier over and over again, and the most poignant of all? Tigh, with that great music in the background shooting Adama in the head, waking up like Boomer, and screaming.
Cavil thinking that putting the FF into humanity would teach them a lesson about why they should die, backfired. They all became the center of the resistance on NC, and Anders on Caprica! They made bonds that defined who they were. Then we have Six, who I always believed wanted to be human, even more than an 8. Sharon seemed to have it all, in Boomer’s eyes, which is why she was so upset.
I’m sorry that I write so much, I usually do this in my LJ, but it seems more pertinent to write here.
k
March 29th, 2010 at 1:13 am
…What….What…IT ENDED!
Before I get into things, however, congratulation CB2001. You were right about Evelyn! Even though I was wrong about Larry, I’m glad it was her. That was a great moment when Joe came out of New Cap. I felt so bad for the guy.
I just got done watching the episode off of Hulu…and wow. That’s all I can say. I mean…I’m speechless. Amanda…Philomon. And the saddest thing is, since this is BEFORE Galactica, we don’t get the satisfaction of that small shred of hope that said character is a Cylon…
Also, as much as I hate to admit it, Amanda is dead. I’m seeing a lot of people saying she’s not, but she jumped off a bridge for gods sake. You’d hit the water, and death would be instant. Sorry. I liked her too…but she’s gone, and Daniel doesn’t have the Avatar program any more.
And Philomon! I loved him. He was so cute in a adorable nerdy way. That was brudal. And do you really blame his reaction to finding out about the robot. “I’m the robot, and Rachel, and Zoe Greystone!” If Zoe had left out the Zoe Greystone part, I think everything would have worked out just fine. However, when you say you’re the ghost of somebody who’s supposed to be a terrorist, he had every right to panic. I would have done the same thing. (He only promised to not judge her one what she looked like, not who she actually was).
I’m SO glad that Clarice wasn’t in that car (since I’m pretty sure I’m one of the few people who actually likes her…) But poor Lacy. The psychology in that was intense. Kill, or be killed. I know some people don’t like that she pressed the button, but think about it. I’m willing to bet everybody on this board would have done the same. We like to say we don’t, but us human are cowardly…scared of death. We don things we tell ourselves that we’d never do.
I think the whole reason people don’t like that Lacy blew up that car is just that. We can related to her. We can see ourselves in that situation, and we see ourselves doing the exact same thing…but isn’t that what makes the show so great?
Anyways, it’s late here. I don’t want to have to wait six months for new episodes! Now what am I going to do!! I guess I could NOT procrastinate on my school work…? Nah. I’ll think of something!
Fayth
March 29th, 2010 at 5:01 am
I think were all forgetting the really important question here… Why did Ben blow up a fraking train in the first place? I mean who the hell told him to do so… Clarice needed Zoe alive…
March 29th, 2010 at 5:33 am
Heres something to chew on:
I don’t know if anyones noticed this before but I was just watching “The Plan” for the first time today… anyways among the hybrids pointless dribble I noticed “Apotheosis was the beginning before the beginning”… Not that its stating anything new but Its a nice in reference by Jane apparently.
(http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/The_Plan#Noteworthy_Dialogue) – Found a quote of it, (third hybrid quote)
-Sam Wagner
March 29th, 2010 at 10:19 am
Sam Wagner: Barnabus was the one who ordered the bombing.
Lacy’s new “friend” built the bomb and gave it to Ben.
As for Amanda… I’m hoping she’s gone (sorry, she and Clarice weren’t my favorite at all) but I have a feeling something will happen where we’ll get to see her again somehow. Maybe not alive, but somehow… Think about it. Starbuck SHOULD have died in BSG yet she returned. So we never know.
March 29th, 2010 at 10:56 am
Hybrid Utterances.
# APOTHEOSIS was the beginning before the beginning. Devices on alert. Observe the procedures of a general alert. The base and the pinnacle. The FLOWER inside the fruit that is both its PARENT and its CHILD. Decadent as ancestors. The portal in that which passes.
# Nuclear devices activated, and the machine keeps pushing time through the cogs, like paste into strings into paste again, and only the machine keeps using time to make time to make time. And when the machine stops, time is an illusion we created. Free will, twelve battles, three stars, and yet we are countless as the bodies in which we dwell, are both PARENT and infinite CHILDREN in PERFECT COPIES. No degradation.
# The makers of the makers fall before the child
March 29th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
If Zoebot dies, she will revert/download into V world, and then help Daniel or someone else make a new interface and body and download into that new body. We’ve already seen that she can co-exist in her body and V world. This is the origin of cylon downloading and immortality.
I have enjoyed all your thoughts – thank you. Good art has good artistic qualities (in this case, good storytelling, acting and music) and makes you think. There is lots to think about in Caprica, but I hope the implications of these robots will be discussed. They probably will, now that Zoe has killed and escaped. It’s high time to have a discussion about that in the 12 colonies – and here on Earth.
March 29th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Funny thought. Emmanuelle did say somebody was paying her to help Joseph… well, of course somebody is paying her to help him.
She works for him, tee hee.
March 29th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
I’ve enjoyed reading the comments and like some, I really don’t know what to expect next season. For some reason, I believe that Amanda is still alive and the software (for lack of a better term) or whatever the exact terminology that linked Zoe’s avatar to the Cylon will be salvaged. (This is just my spin on things—it’s television so it’s not that serious).
I agree with Tootie, that there needs to be a discussion on the 12 colonies in a broader context, how do the cultural traits factor into the storyline—yes, we have seen the Caprican and Tauron cultures—what about the others? Also, what about Kobol and the 13th tribe—Cylon.
Although this is a “stand alone” series but within the greater context of the BSG storyline, I’m looking for continuity in the basic premise i.e. “all of this has happened before and all of this has happened again.” Correct me if I’m wrong however, the first eight humanoid models were created by the Final Five humanoid models—Daniel was killed/terminated. Also, the Final Five lived / were created approximately 2,000 years ago. Within context, the Final Five’s thought process, behavioral patterns have no bearing on what’s taking place within the current Caprica series, however with the V-world and avatars, it is plausible that this is the beginning stage of what is to come; i.e. the clips in Razor regarding the development of hybrid technology; the personality traits of the humanoid models in BSG—someone earlier in the posts mentioned the possible conflict Zoe may have experienced when she slammed lab tech into the wall and killed him.
I can see traces of behavioral patterns in Sister Clarice spiritual aspect and polygamy, in the humanoid models of BSG as with Amanda and her caught in the trauma of her past and not reconciling with her past and the behavior of teenagers, (in general regarding the transitional times they face during those years) i.e. Zoe, Lacy, and Tamara. Just me, thinking about where this series is going.
Transplantation of BSG culture from fan of the original to the re-imagined series.
March 29th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Since it is time to ramble…
So dating Zoe is a death sentence, whether you are an STO idiot or a lab nerd.
So Zoe gets to see all her boyfriends die, whether its the flash of explosives or the impact of flesh on steel.
The first cylon is female, I guess that is because they are the more doscile of the species.
The first cylon being female is logical, but only because of the sexbot angle.
The future is set and all that has happenned will happen again, but who says that Caprica isnt a reimagination of its own. Nothing has to happen to align itself with the new BSG. We have already seen the Yoseph Adama figure go from aggressive lawyer to mob concilliary (sp). The ultimate mind frak is if things turnout the same but not as we expected. Remember that the Terminator franchise is always messing up the past but always ending in judgement day.
The greystone cylons may not be the cylons of new BSG. They are a model that ends and are replaced by the Vergis series of cylons.
The new BSG mytholody lends itself to the idea that each colony uses cylons in an intercolonial conflict, only to have the cylons decide they are not pawns. Caprican cylons fight Taurin cylons, while the geminons buy cylons to set them free. The free cylons are “pressed” into service by the other colonies as “spoils of war.” These geminon cylons spread the word that leads to the rebelion.
The cylon war must be preceded by an intercolonial conflict and thus set the stage for cylons to be ACTIVE fighters before rebellion. That is the BSG thread I want to see.
You know, Caprica could be cancelled. Then the questions will remain but the answer will be the same:
All this has happenned before and will happen again.
BTW, I am building a robot. I mean what harm can it be to have a project between now and the next episodes.
By Your Command.
March 29th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
@ The immortal one “The first cylon is female, I guess that is because they are the more doscile of the species. The first cylon being female is logical, but only because of the sexbot angle.”
Duuude not cool.
March 30th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Well, I have to agree, it’s a fact that we women are less aggressive than men, and I for one am glad to have less testosterone to deal with.
The sexbot comment is…..weird and not cool. But that has to do with testosterone too. Men are wired differently, fact.
We humans are screwy creatures and testosterone and evolution doomed us from the start!
March 30th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Crispin, it’s definitely a ‘business’ trip Clarice said she was going on.
I just rewatched, wow, really really quite outstanding. Can’t wait for the next set of episodes.
Congrats Ron and David “It’s a show!”
March 30th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
How many days after the airdate do matt & Nat do the capricast? Is it usually a set amount of days or just whenever they can fit it in before the next episode?
March 30th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
One thing that I forgot to put, was the music in this episode! Was that Opera (Capricoperatica, as Bear McCreary called it in his blog) not one of the most stunning pieces of music we’ve heard in Caprica. In fact, I will proudly say that that was one of the best pieces of music in all of the BSG shows! It was so moving, and the soprano on there was spot on! And of course, the baritone that everybody knows and loves, Alessandro Juliani! I actually didn’t know it was him at first! I mean, I knew he had the opera degree…but this just took the cake!
The piece was so fitting for what was happening, too! It complimented the scene so well! I was in tears (and if you know me, I don’t cry at TVs or Movies very often).
And then, there was Daniel playing the Caprica theme on the piano. That was so cool, and who would have thought that it would make a good piano piece? As soon as I find sheet music for that, I’m learning it.
I swear, if Caprica doesn’t win an Emmy, it will be robbed. (Even though BSG was robbed every year…) I just hope that Caprica comes back by the time Glee finishes up.
As for the “Female in the robot” thing, I agree with everything that the_immortal_one is saying, except for the “Sexbot” thing.
I don’t think “Sexbot” has anything to do with it. If I had to take a stab at why the robot is “female”, I’m gonna guess that it’s because this show is trying to grab a new audience by being more “feminine”. That’s why at first, the Caprica intro was so…weak. They were trying to soften it, because if it went all in with Battle Drums, people would think it’s just another war show.
Another reason I think that they chose to go female, is because a female robot contradicts itself a little more. Let’s face it, we tend to see Robots as masculine. I think that was a very smart choice on the writers part.
March 30th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
In my defense….
The “more doscile of the species” is a line from the movie Species. It’s a joke in the same way that the character in the movie says it.
The “sexbot” comment comes from the long line of female robot characters from “Metropolis” (where a robot takes over the identity of a socialist fairness crusader and leads the people of the underground astray) to TV’s “Buff the Vampire Slayer” where a female robot is not the villian but the misunderstood and neglected companion of a basement geek.
Now, you know the whole story. That is my defense. A defense that Yoseph would approve of since it is an after-the-fact story intended to gain “misunderstood” status while covering for the blatantly obvious “sexbot” comment. On Tauron I would get a small failure tattoo for the ruckus I caused and a large success tattoo for being the first to use the phrase “sexbot” about a cylon before “SIX” was created.
By the way Dave, I believe there is a 47% likelihood of information failure in this post. I suggest that the cause is simply human error.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
@ thee_immortal_one: Completely understood. If I am to be perfectly honest, even though I raised an eyebrow at the “sexbot” thing, I still had a little giggle. I don’t know what it is about politically incorrect statements that make my laugh, but they do.
But look at the bright side of this whole scenario. You got somewhat of a debate going? That’s gotta mean something, right?
March 31st, 2010 at 6:37 am
Fayth- Thank you.
March 31st, 2010 at 9:55 am
Comparing the writing and art of that episode to anything else that’s ever been done on TV (except Battlestar) shows how outstanding it was. I feel guilty I didn’t give it as much support as I could have, but Lacey at the school, with sister Clarice etc. was so annoying…but now you see how their relationship has to matter for this ep (storyline) to work.
CB2001, we love ya.
Mountaineer014, Matt and Nat do their casts when they can. You may not know that they are both talented media entrepreneurs and the studio they have is actually the studio of Nat’s ‘Your Greek News,’ an on-line TV new show about Greece and Greek news from around the world (http://yourgreeknews.blip.tv/). That no doubt keeps her very busy. And Matt is a talented independent filmmaker (’Six Reasons Why’ etc.) and does other movie related work and editing (http://mattcampagna.com/). It is my understanding that they get no money for Capricast/BSGcasts – these casts are labours of love, so be patient and enjoy this forum space Matt and Nat have generously offered to us.
March 31st, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Wow, Tootie, you pretty much hit it all on the head there… I was going to let Mountaineer014 know that we post them when we can, but you just knocked it out of the park!
We actually just had a huge move-in to a bigger studio today, so it slowed me down a bit. But as I type this from my new edit suite, it’s certainly worth the wait to me!
And Nat’s actually just taken a new writing gig at Women’s Post here in Toronto, I’m plugging away at my next film http://RollTheHard6.com and we’re both hard at work turning http://YourGeekNews.com into a new half-hour TV show that will hopefully be available all over North America very soon!
So yeah, I guess what we’re trying to say, Mountaineer014, is that we love BSG and Caprica, but since this site is a hobby and a labour of love, sometimes other things take the front burner. But we love the community on here, and we want to make sure we don’t let you down. And since it was just posted, please enjoy our Capricast for 1.09 – End of Line!
~Matt
March 31st, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Tootie- Thanks.
Matt and Nat- Also thanks. Honestly, I wouldn’t have minded Matt’s theory about being a fat guy being true if it had been. Great review as always.
Nat, congrats and good luck on the new writing gig. Matt, I wish you luck on RTH6. And I wish you both luck on turning YourGeekNews.com to TV. 
I’d tune it for it.
March 31st, 2010 at 9:57 pm
@thee_immortal_one If it’s any consolation, I got the tongue-in-cheek spirit of the Species reference
~Matt
April 1st, 2010 at 2:10 am
Wow Matt! Very Tarantino’esqu Nice can’t wait till it comes out.
April 1st, 2010 at 2:34 am
Amazing episode and a great review! keep the good job
I hope you’ll still put the YourGeekNews tv episodes on the web somehow for people abroad (like me) to watch, because I really love watching it…
April 1st, 2010 at 7:15 am
@Gilad – No need to worry, if we’re producing a weekly TV show, that’ll mean we’ll be able to post 3 new webisodes to http://YourGeekNews.com every week!
@Kirsty – I’m glad you like the look of it! My brother and I are hoping to shoot it later with summer with some pretty big stars and a nice collection of actors from BSG, 24 and Lost!
~Matt
April 1st, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Wow, that would be great!
“The more, the marier”
April 1st, 2010 at 5:54 pm
@jasko: I am pretty sure the Ha’la’tha is paying her, in fact I think they are far more involved than we realize. Do you think they sent Joe to law school just for charity reasons? No way–we know he becomes a well known attorney, and now w/one of their enforcers stepping up for him @ home, and his obvious amp addiction, he needed to be woken up and fast. I mean even before the whole thing w/Tamara, he was having major issues, and Evelyn clearly had a crush on him. I just find it odd, we never hear about his wife? Just this obsession w/Tamara; who rightfully under the guidance of Emmanuelle, shoots herself and then him. I don’t think she should have shot herself, but maybe if he thought she was dead in v-world too, he would stop. Finally, he can accept her death, for real, and btw I got the impression that she was hiding from him, did anyone else?
She seemed familiar w/Emmanuelle, which means she has had contact w/her before and knew she was Tauren. Why? How else would she mention Willy’s ink day if she wasn’t?
Interesting; and I think that I said it in another post, the Ha’la’tha basically own the Adamas, and Sam does not have a problem w/that, but Joe, as we know, does at times. However, they need him back on board to keep their people out of jail. Plus, I wouldn’t doubt that Daniel asks for Joseph’s help, as seen in the previews, as something having to do w/v-world, or knocking off the slimey Vergis, which would be a really dumb move.
k
April 5th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
:-p
April 5th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
April 5th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
hey I know how the show’s going to end! ha ha
here goes my rediculous theory— daniel graystone becomes a cylon like zoey. The cylons revolt, the first cylon war happens. toaster daniel survives the war. then the final five skin jobs from earth show up when the toaster cylons including daniel are experimenting with trying to regain human form (early hybrids). earth skin jobs help them take on human form and create the cylon models from BSG, daniel graystone becomes daniel the skin job who cavil later destroys. voila.
Its crazy, but i think it totally works
April 6th, 2010 at 10:27 am
CB2001, as a hardcore sci-fi and fantasy fan, I am ashamed to say I didn’t get the Species reference – enuff said.
Nice cast Matt and Nat – and good to hear you are ramping things up – FANTASTIC!!! Best wishes!!!
April 6th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Tootie- I didn’t make any reference to “Species.” The Immortal One did. And I too don’t see a reference there, and I’ve seen the movie.
April 7th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
The “more docile” comment starts at 20:54 in “Species”:
Dan Smithson (Forest Whitaker) “It’s a girl”.
Xavier Fitch (Ben Kingsley) “Yes, I ….. We decided to make it female so that it would be more docile and controllable.”
Preston Lennox (Michael Madsen) “More docile and controllable huh? Well, I guess you guys don’t get out much.”
Ben Kingsley played the role of the brilliant but detached from humanity scientist perfectly. His character of Xavier Fitch has some similarities with Daniel Graystone; genius combined with moral blind-spots of epic size. Josef Mengele showed just how dangerous and evil this combination can be.
About 1:07 into Metropolis, we are treated to the creation of the first skin-job. Incredible special effects for 1927. I guess I’m missing the “sexbot” angle. Sexbot or not, the newly animated Machine-Man is an effective chaos-causing, if not particularly sexy, erotic dancer who meets her end by fire.
April 24th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
Hi Matt + Nat, great review as always. Just one thing I’d like to note, as other people have mentioned already I think you’re perhaps being a little hard on the character of Lacy Rand, in this episode at least. She certainly wasn’t just trying to please people when she pushed the button to blow Sister Clarice to kingdom come, since she did infact have a gun pointed to her head.
I think Matt is definitely right in that she is clearly suffering from survivor guilt, and from the moment she committed herself to fulfilling her friend’s dying wish i.e getting her to Gemenon, virtually all of her actions since then have simply been to fulfill that promise at all costs.
In regards to the comparison of her to Gaius Baltar, I think if we’re going to go the route of comparisons to previous BSG characters, I’d actually suggest she more closely resembles Lee Adama. I think her “killing” of Sister Clarice very closely resembles the moral dilemma of shooting of the Olympic Carrier.
Can’t wait till September to see how it continues!
June 7th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Reparation verre…
Free advice on How to Fix Scratched Window Glass….
July 10th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Two theories that crossed my mind:
1) I honestly don’t think Amanda died, Show’s like to fallow a simple rule I like to call “The Intro Rule” witch states no character dies if they appear in an expensive inro. I know what you’re saying “she’ll be a Cylon, she’ll be like Zoë”. She can’t be like either of them simply because the technology was lost and it will take until end of season (at best) for Daniel to replicate that technology.
2) The meaning of “Zoe’s cheesy life flash back”- Resurrection!!! Zoë kept saying that she needs to become more of a machine that she needs to shut her self down. The flashback wasn’t a cheesy motive before she dies, it’s a diversion that the writers made so we think she’s dead but actually it’s a DOWNLOADING SEQUENCE back to V World!!! Her buddy died but consciousness simply downloaded back to the source. It’s a sequence like in BSG S02E18 when both Caprica 6 and Boomer downloaded in to new buddies.